Decade of DeFi: Are We There Yet? - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

amazing thank you guys so much for coming I am especially excited about today's panel because it is an assembly of three friends three people I have had the pleasure of working with from my perspective I for the last few years was head of strategy at layer zero labs and I'm now a venture partner at Bane Capital crypto I also trade and have used all three of their products I what's really special what did he say going how's it going yeah the trading just backstage we were talking about how my summer went and uh with a lot of free time traveling around Europe I was trading meme coins and I lost a lot of money on Jupiter [Laughter] so tring experience was it good it was quick it was good yeah it was I used it within Phantom yeah um this is also a really special Arrangement because these are three ERS of protocols that actually do move and determine the pace of Def acceleration based off of the decisions they have to make each day hard ones it's not easy running a protocol and so throughout the panel My Hope Is that we'll be able to cover uh and and dive into specific stories hard trade-offs they'd have to make and also how they interact with each other so yeah um I'm going to kick it off by uh asking each of you to give a very brief description of your protocols um so Zaki we'll start with you s of course is is defi yields on eth powered by Cosmos could you share a little bit more yeah so I think one of the things that we got so like similer it's a protocol uh myself my co-founder chrisy we've been working on it for like for about three years uh high water mark tvl is 100 million um and we have been we sort of wanted to generate a build a system that would safely generate yield uh for uh for for users um I think like the last cycle we saw a lot of C defi that like uh onboarded Capital but like rugged all of the users uh the vision of simier was to build something that could felt a lot more Crypton native but gave that user experience of deploying your Capital getting sustainable yields um without uh having to constantly be optimizing moving your funds from one Farm to another um as the market has involved you've sort of seen like strategies play a larger and larger role in the defi user experience especially in the ethereum evm landscape though you're starting to see similar products on saana um where users are users can deploy their capital and you know it becomes a liquidity provider for the lending protocols it becomes a liquidity Prov so rather than protocols having to like sit there and micro optimize their incentives so that you know they can get their Discord chat to like move their money from like this lending protocol to that lending protocol and and and this Dex to that Dex um you can just have you know you can incentivize people to use a vault um and so you're seeing this more and more across crypto as the as the sort of Vault thesis plays out um when we built this thing we um I wanted to also sort of experiment with the idea of integrating Cosmos and ethereum into a single user experience so from our users point of view they're just using ethereum but they get the safy property um where there is a you know it isn't just a glorified multisig there's actually an app chain behind it uh sort of doing a bunch of things to protect users from uh potential things that could go wrong in a strategy environment and we'll talk more about Cosmos uh throughout the discussion zaky in a lot of ways is is I would say the father of Cosmos and has a lot of side projects I so I I'll definitely ask you about that now meow of course you're one of the co-founders of a top trading platform on salana Jupiter could you share just a little bit more about what you do Beyond just spot training um yeah so we do um we are Jupiter we are trading platform you can do spot trading you can do PPS trading um we can also with this launch pad and we also the largest um decentralized community and DOW in the world yeah so you can participate and have fun yeah amazing and then Cindy you founded drift back in in 2021 it's been three years now drift is an entire platform on salana you guys have made some really big announcements going far beyond just a perpetuals exchange can you share a little bit more yeah hey everyone I'm the co-founder of drift we were founded in 2021 as just a simple VM perp exchange which had one feature you can long or short anything with 10 to 20x leverage and since then we've grown to label and become more of a decentralized like defi infrastructure for Capital efficient Defi and what we mean by this is we see drift more as a pool of capital on top of which products can be built um we currently have about 500 mil tvl we have one of the leading Perpetual platforms on salana but beyond that we also have borrow lend we have vaults that generate native yield on drift and most recently we also launch prediction markets so you can actually trade real world outcomes uh on drift with this like unified pool of capital as well I think people often forget that salana has actually only been around for a couple of years and that consumer defi has been around in actually in a usable state for even less Zaki you've been building the space for I don't want to age you maybe a decade a decade yeah could you share a little bit more about some of these watershed moments or like tipping points that actually have led us to where we are either pulled us back or put us forward yeah I mean I think one thing that I think is probably the most surprising aspect of it is how much of defi has kind of we it's this weird hybridization of like Advanced protocols and things that are being built on top on top of like very like simple Primitives like you know there was a time when you know uh first we tried peer-to-peer lending and we tried order book trading uh you know on chain you know there was and when was that well this was 2018 okay 2018 was like you know eth lend which is a was called before it was called a um zerx tried uh uh you know was building like an you know an onchain or an offchain order book that executed onchain and in a lot of ways you know and then those ideas didn't work out then Unis swap happened uh and we had you know the an enormous explosion of tokens um it is amazing to me I think like one is a lot of the themes in defi just repeat over and over and over again you know what we see on salana now is you know at least the early generation of salana mem coin liquidity is all just instead of having like you know a chain that can support you know like a couple of hundred liquid UD swap V2 style chains like uh pools you instead have hundreds of thousands but they're still the same math um so all of those things are important I guess like where I would say like things that are exciting to me is that like cross-chain defi actually works like people are frictionlessly moving funds from Cosmos to ethereum to saana um anyone from a user point of view these things feel way more unified than they have ever in the past um defi is liquid it's usable I think the you know the hardest part though about building right now is defi is no longer sexy um like Finance should be boring though huh Finance should be boring Finance yeah yeah it it it does feel a little bit like boring Finance stuff right yeah like we are we are boring boring Finance nerds building boring Finance infrastructure and the sexy stuff as like the meme coins that get launched on it but if you didn't have defi there would be none of this you could argue that now there are three categories of defi that have actually found product Market fit I think of those as derivatives money markets or lending and borrowing and stable coins uh both of your your Protocols are in the derivative space and and you guys touch various parts of of those three categories have we actually found product Market fit what does that look like and and you talk about defy not being particularly sexy like do users want sexy I'd be curious to hear particularly from you to since both of your protocols have hit this inflection point recently what is it that you've seen that that gives you confidence in your protocol um yeah I think one of the key indicators we look at is trading volume against uh centralized exchanges and I mean this this chart has gone around for years like Dex to sex trading volume um to me finding product Market fit in the Dex World um looks like that chart continuing to go up over time right now we're trending at like 4% um if dexus could actually get to 10 20 50% of centralized exchange volumes that means that a lot of the onchain economy would have been bigger than centralized exchanges and and that's a sign of success um the another sign of success is the growth of stable coin market cap over time because that feeds in that that tells me uh total inflow into the crypto space and total money that is going to be choosing the onchain economy versus nonchain economy um so that's a leading indicator of like future usage of Defi and like right now stable coin market cap is something like 40 50 bill um we want to see that continue to to grow as we look at what pmf is so you're looking at the overall growth of the onchain economy by uh measuring it against centralized exchange activity uh I'm curious for for Jupiter how are you guys measuring product Market fit for your specific platform and of course whether there is an upcoming token launch or not for a protocol can often Drive uh misleading metrics you've been working on Jupiter for a while talk about that yeah we are not a it sounds crazy but we are not a very like metrix driven project we are not we don't really care um we we care a lot about the the user experience and what people say right um I think for a very very long time for like the first three years of Jupiter we have one metric right which is like how much do users like us right that's it we we didn't care about volume like user growth any of that stuff we just care like solely on one thing how how much do I just like us and we think it's actually very important because like um as a D5 system right you are so um constrained by your your macro ecosystem right whether it's SA or like crypto or the whole or the whole growth of right so you can't you can't do anything you can't do much there right so what you do is that you you really focus on what you can control which is like within the rounds of your power so that so so that's what we focus on and um the other thing that's actually really important for us um as just as a protocol building space is that we like boring right I mean the the problem is this right um one of the fundamental problems of being a crypto founder is that um what users want is boring they don't want fancy stuff they want things to work right like when go to Jupiter you don't want fancy you don't want animation you want your go through right but but but investors love fancy you know they love BW they love like um crazy stuff um so I feel like we are at this very weird place right now whereby as a Founder you want to make things as boring as possible right uh and as understandable as possible but on the other hand there's actually a lot of like you know Alpha yeah you know in terms of like hype and Like Making Things Fancy so I think I think for us to try to do both I think U for us we really focus on making the user experience as simple as possible right you know but but on the other hand we do try to kind of find um the one or two things that can maybe help you know that's fascinating there's this tension between investor interest in your protocol token and then the user experience in actual product that you're delivering I I'm I'm curious what do you guys think about the role of venture capital and whether it has pushed D5 forward or pulled it back particularly because the sentiment around token price I I personally think is very often influenced by activity from from VCS this is me going off script by the way uh I can quickly start I think it's important to build especially um you know three of us are part of token launch projects um to build a really good Capital base of holders within your project and whether that's like venture capitalist or token or users or your protocol I do think that the the pendulum shift is always best when the token holders are actually users of your protocol and a lot of um at least our experience with Venture Capital firms are that they are the ones helping to provide liquidity within the def5 platforms as well um so it is important to not discount them as like asset like holders and uh members of your community too um that's how we see them there's kind of no distinction between like hey you're a VC versus you're you know just some guy who holds $10 so this uh token we we would see you in the same way did you guys raise Venture funding Jupiter uh for previous project we did yeah oh okay so so first of all I want to be very clear on one thing I love VES I love them V are so important right no no seriously it's like you know I think how is a bunch of like you know couple of kids going to find like Venture funding how going build a team how going to rpcs you can't get a [ __ ] vs it's not [ __ ] possible right um so I love V for all you V out there thank you for doing God's work okay we love you guys um but um that is a big bun right right um the the unfortunate reality of it is that like um there there's this um that there's this game that VCS are playing to pump each other's backs right and very often it involves like you know like doing private rounds at increasingly valuations that that compel a project to eventually get out there right High valuation right so I feel like and and then the other the other very uh the other very tricky thing about bus obviously is that um um the the the the the value ad um becomes less and less obvious right you know like with the because for example say say you're working in TR right or they working in farma or big biotech right um the VIS V provide a crucial role right from being like a you from being a development stage into get go to market right but then in in in crypto right your go to market is the community so um where V are not helpful there right which is why you do shift you you do see the shift from like um from like you know Twitter influencers becoming in VCS right you know and and the the the main the main value for VC being like you know noise you know so I feel like those two things are kind of unhealthy right whereby um the the the need to kind of like make your portfolio look good the secondly is that like you know the the unclear value in many of them right so I feel like um I think personally what I want to see is that I want to see U flatter rounds right that means that um you know um low low valuations and you're done you don't do and and we shouldn't encourage activity where Founders just go higher and higher and higher right that's one thing that we shouldn't encourage the other thing is that I do want to see a lot more like domain expertise VES right where they really contribute like deep like technical ecosystem like expertise not just palum right and and thirdly and thirdly is I think very important V is is that I think um uh they to be embeded with the community that means that they can't be that that the the um the adversary the the PVP thing between VES and Retail has to be resolved right you know so those are the m and we will see those two m al in summary I love VES I do I wouldn't be where I am with vs um but I do think there are some like really big structure changes yeah a question that VCS often ask is where are the builders I think in the context of this panel an interesting question is where are the dii users saki we talked a little bit about this backstage in uh regards to how you can even break through the noise what indicators there are are these false indicators I'd love to hear your thoughts on this yeah I I I think like one of the hardest parts of the being a builder in defi is is that you get very little signal about uh what products people want what you should be building uh what what are like that that so if you if you imagine like what is the the trafi user or the or even centralized exchange user like a Robin Hood user like the entire user Journey Through the app is something that like is measured cataloged and available to the dev team like they know all the pieces if you are a di5 builder the user Journey touches even if like you control a front end touches like one fraction of of the that front end is only a small piece of like how did the user get funds on boarded like where did they come from how did they how did they find out about your app like how did they decide to do this interaction like you have so you you are s you are operating in such a a noisy environment and the other thing that's hard about defi is like the def Dev cycle is slow um I mean you are dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars of other people's money uh and you don't you know I've been doing this for five years and I've never lost anyone else's money and like every time I look at a notification on my phone I'm like is this the day um right it is a so the dev cycle is slow testing hypotheses is is is is expensive and timec consuming and the signal you get from feedback is like extremely high noise um and then like and like when something works you don't even really necessarily know why it worked it just sort of uh it did and like you know and you you do get to talk to some number of users that are like active in your Discord and everything but most people who show up are just like you know how do I claim my farming rewards blah blah blah blah blah like you don't get any other data from them uh about like about what they want how to retarget them it's an extremely challenging environment to build in and you know trying to find that you know trying to find those user growth like those veins that you can follow to grow users is is incredibly challenging and I think you guys have both done you know incredible jobs of like finding new Vans I think like the the prediction Market thing was is like such so just to add a really quick Point here right is that um the the users they get excited about anything that's a token right or sounds cool right but um the good D5 programs like good and Innovative D programs are really hard and as to build and secure and audit right it's not like it's is really hard to do right so you this is weird combination of users telling you all kinds of things oh I want this I want that right but they don't actually want it you know right and then the the the the path to developing it is also very very expensive so there's this weird thing that I think he pointed on the head yeah I'm certain particularly from my own experience building layer zero as a protocol that when you make a decision to allocate resources towards a new feature or a new product you are dedicating multiple months to product research Dev Cycles and then smart contract audits suaki was talking on security concerns when we talk about decade of defi Are We There Yet some of the biggest watershed moments pulling us back where hacks and loss of user funds uh my question for you guys is each of your projects have announced a new feature or some product that I hope or likely was informed by user demand talk to me about a difficult decision you had to make in in the trade-off as the the founder or leader of of the project especially with such little information like you said I think to touch on the previous point on like really slow death Cycles there is a way and in between there where you know the smart contract itself takes a really long time but the front ends and the ways that users access the product can actually be built very quickly once you have a really good uh smart contract base so one example here is that when we built our V2 to go from a single perex to a cross collateral engine that cross collateral risk engine was entirely built in salana took us like 6 months to build an id8 and we I think our DS like didn't sleep or see the sunlight for for six seven months right and from there we we found it much easier to launch like products that focused on the front end side um because we had spent that six seven months like so deep in in the smart contract cycle so I think there's um kind of a trade-off there where spend a lot of time on the smart contract side but spend very little time on the products that are built on top of it CU like for instance when we launched um BET our prediction markets a month ago that was a UI experiment for us that took some work on the back end but to us it's a short cycle experiment if it graduates from an experiment great we we'll build an entire team product team to expand it forward and we're seeing signs of success there so um basically cheap and fast experiments can still happen in defi but to me that that's on the product um Innovation front how about Yow I think Jupiter I I've been familiar with dupit and have used it over the years but feel that last last fall last summer it really really took off were there decisions you guys made as a leadership team that you know I'm sure were difficult involve trade-offs that you think has led to the enormous escape velocity success I I the the leadership is we to me I'm a cat right um so I I think um like in all honestly I feel like uh it's a combination of just like really thinking about what users want right I mean we are like okay users want boring I'm not kidding users want boring right so we like [ __ ] it we're not going to do fancy stuff right users some boring we make it as boring as possible right so for example one thing that we one thing that we worked extremely hard on slipage right Dynamic slipage right because when the user set slipage very high and stuff right it's very problematic because they they get direct and comes in lots of problems right but they always do it very high why because they get trans true right so um so and in in fact some users also set like 5% when they doing sa coins right kind of stupid you know um so yeah so so we innovated we experimented like crazy right just like experimented for months and months you get the exact U right and now really well now right but the it sucked for a long time right but that was a that was an example of a boring thing that we did right just because we think that it makes it better for user right um another another thing that we another thing that we did was that but there's also D side right which is like the cat side so there's the user side and the cat side okay the user side is all user Focus the cat side is just whatever it's fun we just go you know so we we do that like we uh we we like all our projects are like so so there are things that we do because it's boring and for the user and there things they just sounds fun it could be like someone to try it right it can be like engineer and team that goes like e I want to do this thing let's go so yeah so I think we do two things yeah we go we because think about it right now here's my philosophy um nothing works we don't know what works right so what you do instead is that you kind of Empower people to do stuff right yeah so either you do okay so so so so there's two things right there there's a theory of exploitation exploration right so you have things that you exploit you know it's going to work you know people want it going h on that right and think that you don't know a [ __ ] right so you what you do is you just let people do it you know so that's how we do it you know the human side and the cat side so approaching uh protocol building from a like boring first perspective of course you can be more more fun persective yesing first and fun first because I know you and you're you're a fun guy and they have like cat DS and and there's spontaneity for sure yeah you're welcome I I I want to understand a little bit more building an enduring protocol Zaki there's a debate right now around building on an L1 or building on app chains and I think you have really great insight into this since you have been deeply involved in Cosmos for a long time and I've seen many iterations of what is now sort of like the rollup uh as a service approach what are your thoughts on this so I think that like one of the things that has been a challenge it so a lot of defi I think in general struggles so you don't we don't there's like lots of of mystery pieces like who are the liquidity providers who are the uh uh uh like who are the liquidity priers who are the Traders where are the demand so like in defi you're like growing in the dark and then there's this challenge of you know build it and they'll come right like a lot of teams I think a lot you know a lot of where I contribute in a lot of things is like I am willing to keep trying go to markets until something works um and have been doing that across many different protocols and try to do it uh in in environments that are frequently very challenging um and so you know we built I mean there are a lot of cool defi things that have been built in app chains um I think delivering those to the market has been just like a considerable challenge I mean the work that Cosmos collectively had to do to for instance you know support dyx in terms of coming into Cosmos was enormous like we got usdc launched we had we added new com like features to the consensus engine we like did all kinds of new stuff just to support that single defi use case um and you know dyx has has you know had a modestly successful goto Market but like I I think that like we all expect more and we all want more um goto markets are incredibly challenging and it you can build the coolest protocol in the world but if you don't find a way of drawing users in um and this is this is the supply side of assets to trade uh Etc that all of these tokens like every D5 protocol relies on like we need new things that users will get excited about in order to bring volume liquidity tvl in otherwise we just kind of spin our wheels and like we can't be you know we don't own the full supply chain are defi Founders actually evaluating building on an L1 versus an app chain from a technical perspective or do you guys think it's purely go to market in the sense where if you launch your own app chain there's utility now for your token so be before that just want to give a big flowers to him like building Define on Cosmos is like hard it's like playing on like [ __ ] hot mode man it's like the the number of variations there and the number of user fragmentation there is insane like um Just Flowers it [Laughter] Isom the question about uh l1's in utility for your token if you launch an app chain Cindy you chose very early on to launch on salana and you guys have stayed very loyal and true to salana I'm sure you've had to have that conversation with your co-founder should we launch our own app chain should we ear not the biggest consideration for us was um one do it in a go to market environment that's actually conducive to your success um I think the the biggest reason we chose salana 1 was that it was actually the only chain available be besides eth L1 in 2021 when we started building um arbitrum or didn't exist at a time and Solana presented itself as like pretty compelling um L1 we saw early bubblings of a developer Community there uh it was still very much shwing glass shwing glass early days um people didn't know how to build like programs so everyone was like supporting each other but we saw like the very early Innings of a community that was supporting each other in like launching programs and we thought okay these are the users these are where they are right now so let's go to and and build build where they are going um so obviously that was one big developer and user base um for us to launch into uh second was the availability of capital um we didn't think that it made sense for us to bootstrap and entire chain with zero assets on the ground Beyond like what we would deploy um and salana um was growing a lot in tvl at the time I think um back in 21 it was still in the 100 200 million range um now it's closer to the 5B um tvl um so just shy of 10x from from eth but uh having a asset base with other creators of assets launching meme coins um tokens um creates a fertile ground for for a defi protocol right you can't really launch a dii protocol without a home or real estate for for for you to be servicing so it's kind of like the decision of should we launch in like New York or like some random small um country that nobody knows about or the city that no one lives in um so that was to us like a decision to launch into a place where people needed this service versus launching someone and then forcing people to to to come to you so um in essence we do think that app chains offer some tech uh Innovations but uh so long in particular we're seeing a lot of growth on the tech site you know fire dancer um validator client upgrades so um we think that that trade-off will equalize itself um in about a year's time why would a per Dex or a defi protocol launch their own app chain like what do you think are are reasonable I think the like honest answer is you can build some gigabrain [ __ ] on an app chain like that's the exle the nerd the nerd snipe of building on an app chain is the gigabrain stuff like the you know dyx built on top of Cosmos is like the fastest execution of any perex that is out there right now and like that you know being able to build those metrics the other thing you get is this ability to like sort of Clean Slate build up a a ground up environment you've seen dydx do this you've seen hyper liquid do this you see what bar chain is doing all of these things are ravaging this ability to like be an app chain to like you know structure and incentivize an ecosystem with no preconceptions whatsoever and that appeals to people like it appeals to Capital it appeals to people you know we we we are all experiencing the be chain hype cycle uh the hyper liquid hype cycle like all of these things um you know and who knows if it works but there is a there's a scale there's an ambition there's a technical complexity that applies to people I mean I think a lot of a lot of defil ERS a lot of it is just like we want to show that we can like we can like that something like this could exist MH so so question for you I'm very curious like between dydx and Hyper liquid what's your take like technically like technically hyper liquid and dydx what's the difference and that was better yeah so hyper liquid is a more conventional like onchain SE like quab design hyper liquid is this like really cool uh dyx is in this really cool mem Club idea um sunny and I actually dreamed up the M Club Vision like in 2018 and then neither of us built it um and then dydx came up and we want were like we want to build a mem club and they looked at every possible technology that was out there in the entire crypto ecosystem and there's like well there's only one thing that can actually can build this on which is the cosmo stack and they wanted to build it so they built it and they were like we're going to like you know eat glass on the go to market and like solve all these other problems and of user on boarding and wallets and all other nonsense that's that they're dealing with now um but the mem clab concept is really cool and uh you know being able to do it in a a fully decentralized setting is a pretty powerful thing that's a great example of a difficult decision that a D5 founder had to make and I remember it was certainly not consensus that that was the right move by dydx at the time and it took a long time and now here we are and it's dri drift is the only perex in the top three that is not a app chain fascinating that's huge also a difficult decision to be honest I think especially well difficult non decision or maybe not an F yet as we're coming up on time there are two questions that I think very rarely on on panels are actually discussed that I want to to ask you guys the first one is why do you think there are more sellers than buyers right now and how are you guys converting and retaining users in this market I I'll give you my answer which is one of the hardest things about defi is we have apps that people use and then we have tokens and token is a separate product from App um and you as a Define founder you end up with two like two or 10 or but like the token is the n plus1 product and it is a little bit of a struggle if you are a meme coin all all you have is token like you put all of your energy into token if you were a defi protocol you have like all of the things about a defi protocol all of the things about an actual app and then you have token um and I do think that like this is like one of the reasons why it's hard for us Tock clearly articulate why you know people should be buying dii tokens do you to want to add on there perhaps around converting and retaining users as a platforms that primarily offer perpetuals I think uh incentives can only get you so far um like you can spray token incentives as far as possible but the moment they stop uh if your users don't actually like your product or you're not solving a need um that's like the clearest way to tell that a user like yeah doesn't need it um I think the easiest way is really to go down very very basic like Grassroots um and D5 protocols like once you get to a certain point probably don't do this enough like do you know who your top 100 10 users are have you actually built BD teams that service these people and like make sure that they're coming back keeping their capital on the platform um but that plus um just just constant pushing out um new experiments that that users might like are probably the the easiest like retention methods not easiest but um the most obvious ones yeah I'd love to hear your thoughts on this particularly because within the salic community you're such an iconic figure and I think a lot of yeah you I think a lot of the reason why people are attracted to the Jupiter Community and and stay in it is is because of the work you've done on on the softer side of things with Community I think um I think the answer to all three things is love okay like love no I'm not kidding I'm serious I'm very serious um I think you have to love your users you know like really care for them you know like like um like we we spend so much time on like problems even imagine right like we probably spend like I think um easy like um like I don't know like like like half of our operational thinking is our users right and you going love LPS right you know for purpose stuff there's always a big LP pool take care of them right so there's always like and and and people and so you got take care of LPS as well right you know and you got to understand that you know they put the life savings in there they really concern about stuff and you really going to like take that love right and Community too right you really have to love like engaging the community right so I think um and really talk to them and you know if frustrated at token price you to be empathic with them you know you have to um just talk to them and just you know just talk to them you know so I feel like I feel like if you do everything very nicely uh you love your users you love LPS you love your your community then ideally hopefully right then the the the the um the virtual cycle comes in right you know the the users provide fees to the LPS the LPS provide liquidity to the users and they they they because they love your product so much they become community members right I'm saying you know right and then so I think that that virtual Cy set in right so I feel like that's how we think about it anyway right because I mean guys I'm telling you guys I mean it's so [ __ ] hot man seriously I mean if you don't um if you don't hit the flywheel right whereby your product and your your your your liquidity and your users and your community right are in sync right it's painful it's [ __ ] painful I don't think it's possible you know yeah that's it for some reason I just keep doing this over and over and over again is good good Zak is involved in more than 10 projects at at any given time dud I was part of the early etherum Wars as well man you know etherum like def5 Wars and stuff I mean I started wptc right and also I was involved in like kyber inam right de BR man it's like every every like um like every nulear system is a new war right and it's also like friend it's also friend and me kind of thing right you know right but it's like you have you you talk to each other each other improve and it just ends up at a given place but the journey that is BR you know yeah I think uh that's a fantastic note to wrap up the panel on part of why I was so excited for this is because I have the privilege of working so closely with Founders and have picked up those 2 am calls when they're making very very difficult decisions and as you three have talked about throughout this it's it's the difficult decisions that have led to some of the most important moments like those inflection points for the entire category of defi it's also very fun and clearly like zaky for example you continue to to take on crazy side projects side quests and for you two I I know it's h a very fun uh undertaking for you both so thank you guys all so much for being generous your thoughts something real quick just very quick yeah really quick so to say like if uh any s awesome Jam so if anyone is watching in a jup community thank you so much I love you guys yeah that's all oh okay well thank you guys thank you