Shifting Tides: Inside the New Era of Institutional Crypto - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2025

2025, what a year it's been. And for each of these firms, respectively, Coinbase, BalconX, CM Group, and Hidden Road, big years for all of you. And we're going to dive into a little bit more about what we're seeing in the industry and where things are moving forward. Usman, I would love to start with you because looking back five years ago, the term institutional was maybe kind of slightly adventurous asset managers and that was kind of the extent of what we saw as institutional demand in crypto, but now we've got sovereign wealth funds. The demand is just expanding beyond most of our imaginations.

How are the strategies in Coinbase at the moment? And can you share a little bit more about the narratives in 2025? Yeah. So a few years ago, like you said, it was uh always a side project of a niche team to uh to venture into crypto. They started off with basis trading, which is what they understood in Tradfi.

Um we've come a long way. Uh as you said, we've got sovereign wealth funds, corporates, uh governments, asset managers. Um they've all ventured in their own way into crypto. Uh and the sequence of events in my head has always been like they started off with basis, which they understood. Then they uh the macro funds started thinking hold on there's a deep pool of liquidity here that I can access outside of traditional market hours and then they started using crypto as a release valve for geopolitical macro events uh over the weekends.

That created a bit of a FOMO with asset managers where they're like they have to be involved in order to stay competitive. Um that deepened liquidity further and also grew demand for stable coins which are the backbone of all everything that happens on crypto. Um then the asset managers corporates started seeing this growth in stable coins and started saying actually this is a great way to efficiently manage my treasury and they started doing you know whether it be internal treasury management or accepting payments uh with with blockchain um and that's suddenly evolved to you know all corporates doing that accepting payments crossber payments um and then now we get um uh asset managers that are looking at doing further yield enhancement and also going into DeFi uh and you know doing liquidity provisioning, lending the whole work. So completely different position to be in uh than 5 years ago.

Completely different landscape and the opportunities are endless. You've mentioned stable coins there and just the opportunities that they bring to our industry. And Joshua, I'd love to turn to you now because you've also referenced that USDE and other stable coins are this native internet money and we're seeing stable coins move beyond what we see as just settlement into collateral and different settlement tools, but also as you've mentioned DeFi narratives too. So what kind of client behaviors are you seeing specifically within stable coins at the moment?

Yeah, absolutely. Um, stable coins are maybe just one of a broader category of yieldbearing assets that uh, investors can hold on chain and can put to much more productive use than just holding cash in a bank account, right? I think we we live in a world where um, as interest rates have come down, people are looking for higher sources of yield um, even going further on the risk spectrum. And um in particular in the world that uh most of us operate in, you know, as uh counterparties, trading counterparties to hedge funds and venture firms and asset managers, they're all looking to um trade on on uh bilaterally like with a dealer like us, Falcon X, um and use these assets on chain as collateral as you mentioned. Um, generally speaking, historically, like looking back 5 years ago, um, the most common assets were just things like Bitcoin, ETH, USDT, USDC, um, generally assets that don't carry any interest and um, it was very capitalally inefficient for people to hold these assets um, without acrewing like the natural yield maybe in the protocol yield embedded in the asset or for dollars getting that um, interest rate that that comes from you know even just from T bills right so um what we're seeing more and more are people using things like USD which carries a yield from the basis trade really from all of the leverage speculators in crypto who are um you know using per uh leverage effectively and that's kind of where the yield comes from or even just the more uh traditional kind of T bills backed stable coins um and they're posting that to dealers like us there's numerous advantages one of which is the the capital efficiency see in the yield.

But another is just being able to settle uh margin calls over weekends, right? That's something that um in Trafi has been uh a difficult, you know, proposition for um you know, settlement networks and prime brokers and you know, all all the kind of existing infrastructure to deal with. Um and so it's unlocking like a lot of new opportunities. And one more area I'll just mention briefly is um Athena kind of with USDE opened up a door for other actively managed um you know delta neutral type strategies. Not all of them can properly properly be called stable coins, but um they're certainly kind of um dollar uh dollar pegged or kind of stable value type strategies um that are mostly generating yield onchain and packaged in a place in a in a uh tokenized format that can be used and and carried portably across different strategies or uh as collateral anywhere really onchain and off.

Fantastic. Thank you. And Giovani, I'm curious to hear from you now because I think we can all agree CME Group has been really central in legitimizing crypto and and the digital asset space and the crypto markets. Interestingly enough, you're now moving into Salana XRP futures as well. So, I'm curious to hear when it comes to institutional clients, what kind of demand are you seeing and what kind of trends and signals that we're really ready to move away from just Bitcoin and Ethereum futures for the institutional market?

Oh, thank thank you for that question, Jessica. And I think, you know, firstly, it's really the undeniable success that we've seen with our regulated cash settled Bitcoin and and Ether futures, which have grown to to trade now over $13 billion per day. That really indicated to us that there's growing demand for um other cryptocurrencies beyond or futures on other cryptocurrencies beyond say uh Bitcoin and Ether. We also saw a very strong client demand with um Salana actually being the most requested product um beyond say Bitcoin and Ether. So really indicating that clients were looking for diversification beyond those those those those those two main coins.

And I think when you look at the just the the market cap of of um Bitcoin, Ether, XRP and Salana, XRP and Salana consistently rank behind uh Bitcoin and Ether. So indicating that there's robust liquidity there and I I guess lastly really um greater say regulatory guidelines giving us that comfort to launch these these additional products and and the the launch has has been tremendously successful. In fact um the launch of of our Salana and XRP futures have been the fastest growing products for for the exchange. We um since Salana launched on uh March this year and and uh XRP in May, we've traded more than $50 billion across the suite. Um we've also seen tremendous growth in terms of open interest with XRP actually hitting the 1 billion mark um in in just about 30 days, right?

Um it took Bitcoin 3 years to achieve that that feat. And not to be undone, Salana crossed 1 billion mark in open interest the same day that XRP did, but it quickly went to double in in open interest in just 18 days. Um, you know, took Bitcoin a little bit over a month to do that. And Ether, which is a little bit more akin to Salana, took three years to to achieve that that feat. So we're really seeing um institutions looking say for for the deep liquidity the the the trust of a regulate that a regulated exchange brings.

Great. Thank you and Joshua now over to you because 2025 has been huge year for Hidden Road. Um so I'm curious to hear from you now when it comes to what we're seeing with new forms of collateral emerging for different clients across the institutional board. What kind of trends are you specifically seeing? and also how is your role with clients changing?

Sure. I'll piggyback a little bit off what Josh said because he covered a number of the the new popular forms of collateral, but I'll try to do it through the lens of a of a prime broker. And so there's a number of factors that you need to consider when accepting collateral. Um, you know, the first one being do you understand the the collateral and the liquidity profile to that? Um, and do you stress that?

And if you needed to default it, how do you get your your dollars back? So that's it's a very important first side of it. The second side of it um is really more around how counterparties post the collateral to you. There's generally two options to that. First is uh under title transfer where they'll post those assets that sit on your balance sheet.

The second is an institutions will want this and already are demanding it is to post those assets in trip party and so meaning they hold those assets away and so you need to understand uh the account control agreement how you get access under certain uh situations. Um, so that's just a general type of collateral in terms of like what collateral we're getting. Um, a lot of people still want to trade the Bitcoin basis trade. Bitcoin is a non-carry asset. And so being able to post that as good collateral and have somebody like Hidden Road finance dollars to perhaps run a a Bitcoin basis trade where I think we're still the only FCM that takes Bitcoin and will finance dollars to cover span margining.

Um in that setup you need to understand not only and model the basis risk but understand what that bitcoin as collateral is um playing on that it's uh you know salana more uh moreover you're starting to see that in securities everybody's been you know buying ETFs and now you have security law interest introduced but they're long ETFs short front CME future again the liquidity side is is really important um Josh briefly mentioned it but I I think it's really important important that as large institutions come into this space, the quantum of collateral that they pose will dwarf where we are now.

It is critical that you have assets that pay positive carry for that and those need to be digital. And so this is certainly you know tokenized money market funds the early stages of you know Black Rockck and u you know V bill there's a number of those a number of more of the yieldbearing stable coins um you know guy and Athena Hondo Finance like the list goes on there's several each one of those have different liquidity profile lockup periods that you need to properly understand. So thematically from a prime perspective these types of assets that can you can tokenize value and ship those around 24/7 changes the risk management. So from my standpoint it shrinks what we call our MP which is your margin period of risk. Clients can meet collateral calls more efficiently.

And so that just naturally makes you know markets more efficient. Um I' I'd end with this of kind of where we are. It's still early on, but last week um CFDC commissioner uh FAM came out and formally announced tokenized collateral in the stable coin initiative. Um that it to me is the first step for regulated markets to start to move 24/7 where you can have collateral again early on but but exciting developments

certainly. And now we're going to open the floor for for everyone to answer. First question I think everyone in the audience will agree when looking at the crypto markets it's follow the money follow where the institutions are moving and institutional inflows undeniably we've seen 2025 has been a very significant year so I'm curious to ask all of you when it comes to institutional inflows that we are seeing deeper liquidity into the markets are we going to see capital rotations flow through this or is this a risk that we're seeing concentrated activity within the crypto asset classes man we can start with you here.

Sure. I think um I I think a year or two ago there was concern that with the launch of ETFs, we're going to have bifoccated liquidity where as IBIT and other providers grow those assets stay in TRDFI and can't flow down into crypto. Um I think we've seen some of that shift and and DATs um have really helped um where the the managers of the DATs essentially have to do something with the assets that they purchase um and that activity is flowing down into the crypto economy. Um whether it be via DeFi lending or going further down the the stack of crypto assets. So I I think we're definitely going to see some spillover.

I think we already have. Um, I just think that it's it's going to be a multi-step process, but ultimately as uh Mike and Josh and Javanni have said that once we unlock institutional capital, I think we we don't really fathom just how big

the institutional capital is or the trady capital um coming into crypto.

Absolutely, Josh. I think

yeah, I I agree. I mean I think um we at FalconX have been pretty active in the digital asset treasury trade um both as an investor and as a um facilitator you know execution partner custody and staking partner for a lot of these uh treasuries and I think it does mark like a very significant milestone for our asset class that these assets that had previously been pretty dispersed across a lot of early adopters high net worth people um you know retail holders are now being reconentrated and sort of accessible to a lot of the folks uh in the institutional category like us in these sort of vehicles that are uh professionally managed. So it does really change like the character of the industry and how these assets are getting deployed. Um for us it's important because um we're then now talking to in investors professional investors that are very familiar with derivative strategies generating yield um they can properly assess the riskreward of deploying um assets into a protocol for instance um you know you have uh very savvy investors like Kyle Sanmani and and the the Salana Dat who has already come out and said that they're going to deploy a lot of the Salana assets in you know yield bearing strategies on on chain in the salon ecosystem. So it's a huge milestone and um it really will drive a lot of value creation for protocols on chain that are specifically built to serve um that professional investor category.

So, you know, if they're uh you know, maybe we kind of hate to see this in the in the in the crypto native world, but probably things like permissioned and KYC things um things that are um a little bit less levered, a little bit less DGEN, but maybe more um regulated in a way um will probably gain a lot of traction. And those are really like the protocols that we're investing into as a firm strategically. We think there's going to be a lot of growth in TVL in those types of things that cater towards um uh treasury treasury and you know CFO uh type personas.

Yeah. Yeah. And and I think um when you look say at what institutions bring right you we're seeing sort of like a deepening of that liquidity right if you look at just how um the evolution of you know when we first launched Bitcoin futures in December 2017 who the personas were uh then right it was your traditional liquidity providers we started attracting some of the um cryptonatives some of the cryptofocused um uh funds but to the point that some of my fellow panelists made, you know, that basis trade was was something that was being traded, but it was limited, right? So, it was those funds that had access to say the spot markets um that were putting on that trade, but it really wasn't until the introduction of the spot ETFs last year where we now started seeing additional market participants come into the space. So now you started seeing some more of the traditional hedge funds um enter the space and and a lot of those hedge funds entered to to put on that basis trade.

But as a year went on we started seeing hedge funds now um taking a more tactical approach and more directional plays um as as as well which has been something that a trend that I think will will will continue. Um so we we do see as as more uh of these participants come in, you see greater volume, you see deeper open interest and it really just all builds where where you start seeing um you know momentum and and and and greater numbers overall. Best for last I guess. Um yeah I think it has a lot to do with you know what my colleague said right is the type of products and so dats have been clear but in terms of concentration risk there's about a 100red billion in those 93 billion of it is in Bitcoin just shy of 7 billion's ETH and there's a tail of up to 10. So you're still absolutely seeing concentration there.

But in, you know, in the Bitcoin and ETH world where you're starting to see, you know, very large options market like the IBIT options when it first started was 73,000 contracts traded in the first 60 minutes. It's now bigger than, you know, some of the the larger, you know, cryptonnative options venue in a very short amount of time. So, I think as why options are important, it dampens the downside risk and that institutions can come into those. but staying a little bit on the cryptonative side of institutions coming in because you're now getting proper certainty and clarity from the regulators and so you can book it in the US and pay taxes. Fazby came out and codified these things are all moving in that direction.

And so what I see from our side is a little bit from a from a trading standpoint is like the large statistical ARB guys that were pretty famous in small cap midcap equities applying similar um strategies and techniques into digital assets and they're trading across a surface of coins that's 150 to 200 names and getting sufficient liquidity off. And so I think that's the growing market. Not everybody's delta neutral. They're statish. Um, and so for us that's that's an exciting development and I think those types of institutions can deploy material capital.

As for new coins coming up without a perk market super limited so um exciting times but still heavy concentration in the the main products. Maybe just to add a little bit to that, right? Because because you're absolutely right. I think um when you see the growth in the markets, right, it it is allowing say for some of those more sophisticated strategies um some some uh tried and tested um uh uh protocols, for example, that have been deployed across um other asset classes. And we're beginning to see that.

We're also beginning to see interest um and to your point, Mike, on on options where um institutions have really been a little bit slow to to adapt um uh options, but we are beginning to see that change. In fact, just just this month, we crossed 7 billion in terms of open interest across our Bitcoin and Ether um options products, and we're beginning to see greater um volume as well. an indication that now um institutions are moving beyond just just just futures um also now moving into more sophisticated um strategies and in involving options and incidentally we have options on Salana and XRP going live October 13th as as you know we continue to see growth for those products

certainly very exciting

I was just going to say I think it's worth mentioning touching upon regulation yeah

and how regulators have provided a lot more clarity in in in the last feels like a few years but actually only been a few months right um and as that increases and as the clarity increases the US is obviously leading charge of this uh with Genius Act and then the rest of the world the UK Singapore etc are joining forces but then you got you're going to start seeing um traditional money managers able to access more assets than just what's on the regulated exchanges they can go down further down the the list at the moment a lot of them have to leverage whatever they can trade and clear in their current prime broker or trady broker at Goldman's JP etc. But once like crypto is not a swear word in your mandate they can start trading a lot more. So I actually think with the increased clarity led by the US and followed through by the rest of the world I think we're going to start seeing a lot more activity outside of the majors.

Very good point actually to touch on that. So as you mentioned the genius acts in the US and you've mentioned Singapore too but is there any other areas that pres present challenges and also opportunities for for the industry?

I'm happy to jump in.

Um yeah I mean in the US it's incredible for folks that come from that market to see the SEC and the CFDC collaborate. That's that's unprecedented and pretty exciting. Obviously the Genius Act is a major step forward. Commissioner Fam from the CFTC on this this tokenized collateral is is very very important. Um but I think you're going to start to see equivalence as well.

So you have the US and the UK like you get in traditional markets where the regulatory standards are set the same. And so now on a global basis that's going to be very important for this. I just spent a week prior to being here in East Asia. And so if you go to Korea the FSC there has a four-phase very descriptive rollout plan. is likely Samsung and Marray will get the ETFs and you'll start to see these institutional products.

I was in Tokyo and and if you look historically when the JFSA changes anything on the leverage side which is happening in derivatives um the market's elastic like the small change will drive uh very large volumes and so um globally regulation clarity are coming together but there's different pockets that are still creating this fragmentation and I think that equivalence piece will really be one of the final steps to to broaden the institutional adoption

and The Genius Act has been mentioned a couple times, right? And and I think what what's been really interesting is when you consider that act and and it's about um putting uh guidelines for for stable coins, but we've seen like tremendous growth in terms of our Ether futures volume as well as Salana futures volume as those platforms are primarily used to to to mint stable coins. And just to put that in perspective, if we look at how much um Ether has traded relative to Bitcoin in terms of notional volumes, um from January to to July, it was probably about 25% or so. In August, Ether represented about 80% of of Bitcoin volumes and and there were a handful of days where Ether actually outperformed. I think that's really a direct result of of of some of this regulatory clarity that we're seeing.

and and we're also seeing um you know in in uh growth as well in in in in these new uh contracts that we launched recently.

Yeah, I'd say um so my firm Falcon X, we we've always operated under the CFTC as a swap dealer. Um and I think the fact that um there is a lot more clarity on how to get to a regulated status in the US has really expanded the playing field for a lot of um players. Um that's obviously a positive thing for startups coming into the space who um want to challenge incumbents but it's also you know I guess the flip side of that is if there is a clear path a lot of people who are operating kind of on the fringes and gray areas do need to come out and register and uh participate in the regulatory process. So, um, you know, it's a it's a trade-off. Like the whole industry is becoming much more, um, you know, suit and tie type of type of, uh, place to work.

And, you know, I think a lot of us came from Trady and we're just re, uh, acclimating to being back in Tradfi effectively, uh, even though we all work at crypto companies. So, that's that's one thing. Um, I think the other thing that's kind of interesting is there's a lot of spillover effects into DeFi world, right? So um if you think about the growth of hyperlquid um even though it's not directly touched on in maybe like the genius act or any of the kind of um you know uh regulatory frameworks thus far the reason that there is so much volume there I think is because um regulated firms in the US prop trading firms um you know high frequency trading shops are emboldened to basically participate in these venues um you know it's it's easier to get through risk and compliance committ ities um to deploy on this given the just favorable backdrop generally and the fact that like it's less likely for you to get uh you know prosecuted down the line for participating in these things because there's a more kind of forward thinking approach to innovative platforms.

I just think that what Mike said is super important here. I think the biggest challenge that we have globally is harmonization right as soon as we get harmonization um then I think we'll see a huge huge um exponential increase in activity. I mean, Coinbase has started with trying to have do this joint task force with the UK and the US. Um, but it's a long way to go globally. Can

can I just keep on that theme? It's less regulatory, but it's, you know, like the post trade side of things is really important for standardization, and we're just not there as an industry, and we need to focus on this. And what I mean by that is, you know, the post-trade block chains need to those platforms need to integrate with Trady Finance to get these efficiencies. Um, and and you you literally don't have those things. And what's happening is because tokenized finance is moving and outpacing these integrations, you're getting all this fragmentation.

And so we need to come together globally to cooperate and coordinate better integrations, interoperability, uh, operational and regulatory standards. And here's an example. I come from the foreign exchange markets. And so September 17th, I think it's very relevant. September 17th of this year, CLS settled $20 trillion that day.

due to their settlement cycle which is multilateral the funding obligations to settle 20 trillion was 100 billion that's 0.5%. And so you have blockchain that can move us from tenures like settlement in T2 to a to an instant but you're not going to get that standardization. And so it's definitely somewhere improving that and you know working on the counterparty credit risk but I think it's this global standardization and you know maybe it's boring in the back office side but that is critical for scale in this and we need to do that now while regulations are coming out otherwise institutions will struggle. Yeah, very good point.

And now if we look at moving ahead, so none of us have a crystal ball. I think if we did, we wouldn't be sitting on stage. We'd be retired on a beach somewhere. But if we look two years ahead to institutional adoption and institutions going mainstream, what do we see as a key milestone that's happened? Is it tokenization?

Is it RWAs? Is it standardization? What kind of things would you see as being institutions mainstream across crypto?

Yeah, I can start. Um so I think the biggest trend in of the next cycle will be things like um tokenized equities um equity per dexes um prediction markets basically things tied to the real world on chain. Um I think it's sort of not just uh you know something that will benefit crypto broadly but it's sort of existential for us as an industry to bring a lot of this risk exposure on chain because we have seen a lot of like capital leakage outside of from crypto going back to equities and other asset classes um as sort of like the risk premiums in crypto have compressed right the asset class has matured a lot um if you want um really excess you know returns in crypto it's harder and harder to find. So, um bringing a lot of that risk back into crypto and being allowing like speculators to get access to them on chain and cross margin across all these different asset classes on chain is very important. Um and yeah, I think the other the other thing I I would highlight is like I think um all of these things will drive like uh achievements that all of us in the industry have tried to work on for decades, right?

So like one good example would be um reducing the margins in you know like um equity financing kind of like stock loan type uh um desks right which exists in prime brokerages. It's like a high margin business where you you take some stock that someone wants to go short and you lend it to them at a high rate. Um and if you can imagine like a world where stocks tokenized stocks are uh collateral on a let's say right and you can borrow those stocks and you can go short them and it's very transparent what the margin is um between a borrower and a lender um and you can see how much inventory there is uh at all times. That's something very powerful and it will definitely compress margins in traditional finance but it's kind of what we've all been working for uh towards for many years right as an industry

but I also think it's a it's uh even s some somewhat simpler that than than that as well right because I I think it's also about um having asset managers for example pension funds begin to allocate to the space right so so greater allocation beyond just what we're seeing for example with with with with DATs right it's it's the continued say expansion of of uh derivatives, regulated derivatives in in in the space and and sort of that transfer of some of these um uh traditional metrics that have worked in in in in the past and being applied say to uh to crypto and ultimately I guess the end goal is that um a marriage sort of between you know tradi and and and and some of these newer technologies helping to improve say settlement times and and and movement of value along long term, right?

Yeah, I agree with that. I think the for me success of the industry in a few years time uh will be simply financial infrastructure is upgraded

to be incorporated into blockchain and I think that will solve pretty much everything that everyone's discussed here like we'll have um essentially a aggregate liquidity pool where you have tradfire assets, crypto assets seamlessly being traded amongst each other. You'll have faster settlement times which results in capital efficiency. Um, and I think that's the way I I would deem success. Rather than just focusing on our asset class, crypto should be an equivalent asset class in an institutional manager mandate.

I could last but not least again I guess yeah I mean I agree with everybody said I think tokenized equities is probably the biggest one. Um and being able to have digital transfer agents because the problem is with that right like that's very important. You can't go on on a and transfer the ownership to somebody who's not KYCed. So what's coming out today is effectively, you know, swaps on these things in tokenized format. So there's a long way to go uh from a regulatory and a securities law that's very clearly defined.

Um but I give a non-crypto kind of thing, right? And like there's no reason payroll is every, you know, twice a week in the twice a month in the US. Twice a week would be great. Um yeah, twice a week in the US and a month and once a month in in the UK, right? And so it would wouldn't it be interesting?

I know my platform pays people hourly on the top of the hour. And so if you move to a world where you can start paying people hourly or daily, what does that do, right? Is that interesting? I mean, maybe it's dangerous. Well, actually, the mortgage that you're paying and the interest that you're acrewing on that, you can start to crush down the debt side of these things.

And so, it's not a crypto comment. It's the technology side of these things. And there's obviously, you know, lots of challenges in doing those things. Maybe ADP is probably going to be after me for saying that, but uh but this is this is readily available. And I I always joke around and say, you know, like anything of value, and that's Ripple's big thing, you know, you're in the internet of value tokenizing things and shipping that round for good collateral and settlement and finality to trades.

We're kind of here. And so is Mike Higgins buying a cappuccino at Starbucks on a Saturday and selling my Nvidia shares. Now, I'm not sure I want to sell my Nvidia shares for a cappuccino, but the point being, it's for settlement. it's on a Sunday and you you could do that. And so we're not we're not far from from this type of advancements, but there's a lot of consideration and the regulators need to be very careful in in doing this.

And it's always fantastic as well to hear examples of potential disruptions on specific use cases because I think here in crypto we do get super focused on charts number go up but when you give reference to real world integrations and crypto as collateral and settlement bases the opportunities are are really um endless. We do have five minutes left so I'd like to kind of go around and everyone give one of their highlights for for 2025 so far before we round up.

We'll start. I would love you to

almost done with the Ripple acquisition. So, Hidden Road, you know, is a multiasset prime clearing business and funded it with pension fund money and had to go prove the thesis out and we took about a half a billion dollars and deployed that. And then the change of administration last year in November really, you know, was positive for for the crypto side of things. Ripple was a um uh a small investor in us and a pretty organic conversation. And when you look at Ripple's, you know, balance sheet and treasury, that immediately makes it one of the largest balance sheets, uh, not just as a non-bank PB, but amongst tier one banks as well.

Um, and so as Usuzman clearly like classified like macro traders are trading equities, fixed income, foreign exchange, digital assets, there's correlation in all these things. And so being able to truly cross margin and margin finance that is super powerful. And so as we do fixed income today, 10 year on the run treasuries again, CME, those will be reposs on on chain, right? And like that world is coming together. And so we're excited to do that.

We're one regulator away from approval. And uh off we go.

Congratulations.

Thank you,

Giovani. Over to you.

For me, this this one goes out to uh to Tim McCort, who's sitting right over there.

It's it's crypto becoming uh the seventh assa class at CME Group.

Well done. Yeah, for us it's uh it's a little bit niche, but um we tokenized basically a pool of loans that we had on our balance sheet. We're prime broker, so we finance a lot of hedge funds. um they're generally like overcolateralized loans against their trading book and um we tokenized it and then we allowed people to um invest in it, generate yield uh from that and also you know loop run like looping strategies through things like Morpho um on our own debt which is very interesting and of course we're acting as a um like a liquidator on that that strategy. So it's it's something where you know we have a good read on our own on our own uh the quality of our own underwriting.

So we're very happy to like participate and and be a market maker for that. So kind of interesting but we kind of see that as a a good test case for how things are going to go in the future.

Sure. I think as an industry we have a lot to be proud of in 2025 but you know especially the things like the Genius Act and policy but that aside to be a bit more uh uh from my perspective I think what I am particularly proud of this year is Coinbase's acquisition of Derbit um it just completes the product suite that we can offer our clients where now institutional clients can custody finance trade um spot per options all under one roof.

Fantastic. Well, Michael Giovani Joshua Osman, it's such a pleasure to get your insights. Thank you so much for your time.