The Past, Present and Future of Web3 Infrastructure - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2022

uh thanks everyone I know everyone is uh fed and happy probably you just had lunch so uh hopefully not too much food coma and we'll give you enough to uh you know compete with a digestion um my name is Lassa Klausen I'm the founder of 1kx uh we're early stage uh token Network fund so we're Venture Capital fund that invests exclusively actually in digital tokens and uh maybe we make the round a little bit you know introduce yourself and your project or your company and what are you working on thanks yeah so I'm Sam Williams I founded the Audi protocol which is a permanent information storage system uh before that I was doing a PhD in distributed operating system design but nowadays I I focus on yeah how we can make information permanent great everyone Devin Mitchum from Google I actually live here in Singapore and uh cover some of the web 3 strategy and partnership work we do here in Asia I've been at Google about 19 years I used to build our data centers that's what brought me to Singapore about the layout here and uh the past six seven years really just uh deep into web 3 scene here in Singapore and uh excited to be on this panel um I'm Dominic Williams I'm founder and chief scientist of the Divinity Foundation Divinity is the largest contributor to the internet computer blockchain the internet computer blockchain is the first and currently the only World computer blockchain that's capable of Hosting you know Mass Market social media services on chain for example um in the few sentences how would each of you define web3 maybe Dominic you start I know nothing about it explain it to me well firstly I think it's it's fair to say that um the meaning of web3 is evolving in in real time so you know I'm gonna have to describe web3 from my own perspective web 3 is something much more profound than um about something much profound than just nfts I think web3 is about Reinventing the internet ecosystem so that online services run completely from blockchains and new forms in which users ultimately become pot owners and of the services they use and part of the team and where these Services become tokenized naturally and take new forms where for example a chat application running from a blockchain will blend with defy for example allowing users to send things like tokens and nfts with chat messages but they'll run in a fully decentralized way from the blockchain in the mode of protocols and the next internet the web 3 internet is going to be incredibly rich and exciting you know social media or blend with defy to become social via Gamers or blend with D5 to come game five and these will blend in turn with the metaverse and so on it's like I think web3 is going to be a very profound and transformative new phase of the internet that will fundamentally change the nature of online services and the nature of users relationships with those services Devin what's your definition of what what is web three ah man my favorite question um so I I I would say web3 is really a narrative and maybe this goes back to my day as a big believer of uh Linux BSD but if you think of Open Source and just the principles of computing and knowledge if you draw that out in my opinion as a as a line in a color spectrum and a rainbow of just content and identity in Providence in my opinion web3 is this just exploding spectrum of a broader Arc um what is that not sure but I think it started with crypto Primitives and I think recently and I think a lot of us here today are really seeing more mutations of that same spectrum and what is that is it digital assets is it jpegs is it art is it gaming is it digital swag but I think there's this really long intersection of what's of a broader computer science principles that kind of underlines web 3. Sam anything to add what's your definition of vote three yeah I think that the probably the most important thing about web3 as far as I'm concerned is that the services that we can offer through it are trustless so we're able to offer uh web services to users where they don't have to trust a company to render it for them and when we think about the the world around us we see that everybody appears to hate big Tech in the mainstream in the mainstream world and the reason that they do is because basically they've learned to distrust the companies and and and web3 to me at least and I think to quite a few people in in the the technical side of the space is yes there is some tokenization that's something you can do with it but that that that's a kind of side show the real the real deal is you're able to build Services where there's no company intermediating uh the experience between users and the service and other users so a simple way to think about this would be what if we had a social media platform in which there was no Central Arbiter you could have a public Ledger of speech um where anyone was guaranteed the right to speak in a way that just isn't possible in web 2. in web 2 basically uh as a nature of the protocols itself all of the services have to be rendered from single places like physical places in the world and those physical places have owners and the person that owns those places gets to decide what's on the website like twitter.com has a bunch of servers if twitter.com decides that you don't get to speak today good luck sorry you don't uh so I think that the the real Revolution will be that we can build web services to respect people's rights using this system um to Google specifically what are your you know what's Google's view on web3 and and how are you how are you guys getting involved yeah yeah yeah so I'd say there's a very broad answer here but from the Google Cloud side where I sit here in Asia um we really see just uh really just of this evolving Trend really of just Computing right and if we think more broadly and especially to Sam's points um we've we've supported a lot of startups here in the region for the past couple years that are building on web3 that are web3 native companies and this might start as crypto exchanges it might be automated market makers on with websites um gaming Stacks but when it comes to Google as the Google Cloud side of the business as an infrastructure picks and shovels provider uh we we think this very much ties in our narrative which is about open source software uh developer choice in terms of running compute platform and ideally tapping into maybe more interesting themes such as sustainability uh provenance um and redundancy and uptime right almost all the principles of web 2 in terms of the challenges of preventing maybe Bad actors DDOS and the like but then how do you also serve that in parallel based on the web 3 Prime Primitives right of censorship resistance of permissionless networks and permissionless public letters and I think it's the combination of those on the Google side that we just find incredibly fascinating so yeah there's this thing that actually a lot of the infrastructure that runs wet three a lot of the nodes Etc is actually run on AWS and Google cloud and then we've had some smaller providers already sort of arbitrarily shutting down you know Hudson is a famous example once I figure out that you're mining there that you shut you down so I think I do think that at the moment it's also Google hasn't has been very kind they've been very nice but I I do think we still have that risk right that at first it's a policy decision maybe it's a U.

S government decision like Google will still have to follow these laws and that we're actually at the risk of Google have to effectively denying services to you know Google still has the power to decide what kind of computation is allowed on the network or not on the infrastructure right and I think this is like coming back to a big reason for for web3 in general is that that you you can't just have a small company a small entity small company but a small group of people deciding essentially you know what kind of computation is allowed or not um I think this comes back to that Google has been an AWS has been extremely helpful in providing cheap and high quality computation and storage at scale um but overall we still have this risk and we experience it with with other Cloud providers that eventually they might actually shut this whole thing down um so far Google has been great uh we've never heard of any complaints but I think just to tie it back into kind of why web3 is a little bit there is actually this risk and then this brings me to my next question where I think there's a lot of computation a lot of data storage where actually price matters and not the data sovereignty right and then where it's but then there's there's types of computation and and types of you know storage where I think maybe the data sovereignty matters a lot so I don't know if you have anyone has particular strong thoughts about it I personally think I think for Twitter it matters a lot um etc etc but I think just this um if you have any thoughts on that balance of data sovereignty versus price yeah for sure I mean like so we built opponent storage system with our weave and how how did you make it permanent well you have to pay for 200 years with worth of storage at the present price then as the cost of storage declines that 200 years expands out if the cost of storage declines at a very higher than 0.5 percent per year you end up with more storage purchasing power at the end of Any Given year than you had at the beginning so it's it's a it's a highly reliable system uh for paying for storage for like extremely long periods but it's not like cheap we're not trying to compete on price so we've thought a lot about this and we think that essentially it comes down to a metric you might call information value density so that is maybe your Tweet which is Tiny and it's kind of like a what are you actually trying to do when you tweet you're sort of trying to communicate your ideas to the maximum amount of people that are willing to listen so the internet does that pretty well over space Oh we can let you also do that over time and it's extremely small data so the value of that data is pretty high so yeah why not store it permanently um but then something like I don't know 8K video of something very boring that might not be the sensible use for a permanent information storage system so that's kind of the frame we used look at it um in general for each of you if I'm so coming you know the permissionless Innovation this concept so if I say I think I've invented a new hard drive or I think I've invented a new computations chip that I think is going to be a game changer but I'm kind of a nobody maybe I'm a kid in South Africa in the basement I've just always been good with Hardware like what is the process for me to actually become a supplier of computational storage in your network like sort of Step by Step without going into half an hour sort of you know instruction like Dominic maybe if you want to start like what would be the process for me to say me and my data stewardships or maybe me and my computation chip we want to be a supplier and compete to provide that service well the internet computer uses a very different model to other blockchains and and also to our wave um the best way of understanding it is that the internet is hosted by routing physical routing devices and the internet computer is hosted by physical node machines it runs on a sovereign Network and these no machines are built to a standard um so if you want to participate in um hosting the internet computer as well computer uh you need to run some dope machines and it's becoming much easier for amateur node providers to participate you essentially have to either build or purchase a node machine you have to install in a data center which involves um putting a software image on it and um doing some steps that initiate initialize the cryptography and um you know you'll run it from a rack in a data center although you know in some countries now consumer fiber lengths into homes might enable you to do it from a basement [Music] it's again the reward system is very different to a traditional blockchain you get paid in crypto but in constant terms with respect to real value and probably you'll run you know several node machines to achieve some economies of scale and you don't have any control um over what that node machine does in terms of what small contracts it participates in hosting and what computations um it participates in performing you know it's it's it's like a kind of black box in a sense and so the time frame if I'm like an experienced operator like how long do you think it takes from I think to I'm supplying computation on your network days is that weeks hours well I it's it's certainly more involved than um with uh the process another blockchain so you know um most blockchains actually run on typically Amazon web services and other Cloud providers so if you look at a proof of State Network a node is just a piece of software that is can be spun up on a cloud service by pressing a button essentially and you know people spin these pieces of software up on cloud services assign some cryptocurrency stake and so on um that means that the blockchains are essentially running on big Tech and the internet bit is a different kind of um blockchain that runs on a sovereign network of dedicated hardware and the hardware has to be built to a standard for a bunch of reasons um so you know it's going to take you longer to acquire that hardware and ship it to a Data Center and configure it um but uh you know there are plenty of people participating and actually uh there's a new simplifications to the process that are about to hit production that I think will help amateur node providers who just want to run a few nodes get started quickly Sam what what's what's the process if I want to become a supplier on for storage on how we've yeah so the the typical I mean the idea of our weave is I would say slightly closer to original Bitcoin in the sense of uh design so so anyone is able to plug in Hardware uh it's extremely easy you just download the software um run it on your machine obviously if you want to optimize then then there's certain things you would you would do to that machine to make it more efficient but if you were to for example design a a more efficient hard drive for computing on our weave which is definitely possible we call them kind of weave drives um yeah then I mean you just build it and then you stick it in your machine and it just it just runs uh another thing about the network that's kind of interesting is that um while you still get sort of pools because you know blocks are being produced and so there's certain um throughput limitation on distribution of rewards as essentially there's a case with all blockchains um the neat thing is that as a provider of storage you can just plug in the behind one of these things and so you get massive decentralization of the data set while the number of actual nodes is sort of less relevant so then Google if I wanna if I think I have better hardware and I want Google to run on them what's that process like okay make a little bit of echo but you're saying if if you have Hardware if I say I've invented new storage Hardware or new Computing chip and I think it's better than anything Google has what is the process to get Google to run those sure yeah yeah great question well I could maybe answer in a traditional sense based on my experience so uh again been at Google about 19 years and when I first joined Google a bit of a bit of a Funny Story here but when I first joined Google we didn't own many of our servers we actually leased them and uh there's some funny uh photos you can find out there but when I first joined really Computing was a challenge right because you had to buy OEM equipment you know branded actual Hardware that had a pretty high cost right branded equipment but we pre we realized pretty quickly especially through the Linux that hey we could just contract manufacture our own servers right and tap into the power of Linux and really almost build servers at scale with just very minimal cost and just being very uh being very lean and intelligent um now I would say the longer story might be you know architecture questions if you're looking at x86 or maybe the arms the arm curve but I would say that maybe when it comes to the server decision it's very much kind of a macro question right it's about the supply a chain of the chips the Providence of those chips if you're security minded the Providence and security of the supply chain to make sure that maybe regardless of the type of compute you have you have the provenance and The Primitives and almost the full trust from the contract manufacturer facility the supply chain the installation the monitoring and the operation of these servers regardless of the chipset inside but really just having not only an intelligently efficient maybe compute stack or technology but just having really deep insights and understanding of uh just just really the full spectrum of the stack because I think again in a web 3 context if we're moving to the Future where uh you have again public data permissionless data uh and you're looking at the blockchain you're looking at nfts to find trust all of that trust really depends on The Primitives you know the core infrastructure the hardware can that be trusted at the Silicon level so fascinating question but so this was to be honest I'm a very biased web 3 investor so this was a bit of a loaded question of what I was leading to is that the Google one sounds pretty complicated because you basically have to establish a trusted supply chain that Google trusts and on the other hand with divinity and and our weave I can basically with one or two more steps I can basically plug in and become a supplier ready and the reason why that makes us as an investor very bullish on web3 is we had one very very large Computing Market where you had what is called permissionless Innovation meaning similar to Divinity narrow weave anyone can basically innovate on the hardware side and just plug it in and see if they can compete better than others and it took the Energy Efficiency of that Hardware it increased it by 130x over a period I think of six years and that was Bitcoin proof of work mining right if you look at the incredible Hardware advancement that happened because anybody in the world could just innovate by themselves plug it in see if they're better or worse and can compete and you know that was phenomenal like 130x Energy Efficiency increase in Hardware is very very rare and by the way this happened already from the beginning of A6 so it's not from gpus to Asics so it only actually takes the Energy Efficiency of Asics going forward and so forgive me it was a bit of a loaded question but but just to explain sort of also our thinking as investor one reason or the reason actually why we're bullish on on on web3 is because you have permissionless Innovation as a side note also um we were mining I think our weave at like four cents with a very good setup Professional Engineers we felt extremely clever and then there was someone in their Discord that keeps selling to me at two cents I'm like what's going on here so you know and it seemed like a young person was a bit of a heavy metal fan well it turns out that this guy just for some reason was better at just running you know uh our weave miners and for me it was a very small you know just a subjective experience of like this permissionless Innovation turns out and I think I don't know I think he was in Russia or Siberia I don't know or or Finland but it just turns out that this kid over there was just like very very good at at mining better than a professional fund um maybe for both our weave and Divinity uh like what is something that has surprised you on the Journey of being a decentralized project or something that you just was an extraordinary experience something you never predicted um well that's I mean you can build off your answer to the last one there I think uh yeah the the Innovative nature of the miners is something that we kind of theorized would happen like in awe's case this is a pretty interesting um uh I guess property of the network we're basically saying well let's just maximize the amount of data we can store for a certain price or a certain amount of value um flowing out of the network and then the miners they just compete to do that as efficiently as possible it's very cool to see and they they really do they it's kind of hyper competition like anyone can get started it's very very easy to get to that first I mean you literally just download the client start running it on your machine I remember doing that with Bitcoin D back in like 2013 but of course that gets you like into the game but to play properly you have to like compete with these other people and and the rules are clear Everybody Plays by the same rules and so the the miners just get crazy crazy uh uh Innovative about the way that they play to the rules so so that's great to see and and if you design the rules right then you get this amazing pro-social app which in our case is is permanent data storage for an accessible fee for users Dominic anything on your side in the Journey of which is by the way being a crypto founder is a crazy journey I can tell you that anything that stood out to you that was a big surprise um just the power of cryptography and Mathematics because I got into crypto in 2013 by the end of the year I was working full time and I'd previously created a computer game with some millions of users so um my first instinct was hey we can create gamecoin and enable people to buy and sell virtual goods and move value between games so um that's when I actually began researching l1's 2014 um was working on adapting traditional consensus Theory to blockchain space and trying to build a blockchain that could process hundreds of thousands of transactions a second and then in 2014 um I someone muted the idea of a world computer a shared World computer within the ethereum community because um people are just were just realizing that blockchain doesn't just have to host only tokens right it can also host code computation and data and um uh from that moment I was absolutely obsessed with building a world computer and so I started working on applied cryptography and distributed computing techniques that could build a blockchain that could host Limitless amounts of computational data but we could also host smart contracts that could process HTTP so you you wouldn't need um big Tech anymore you wouldn't need Cloud Computing Services so you know when you hear about when you hear people say such and such a service is built on blockchain XYZ what that really means today and for the most part is that it's built on Amazon web services and you just move a few tokens on the blockchain the internet computer is able to move Beyond this and host smart contracts which can store data very inexpensively process that data inexpensively and and even process HTTP requests so now um you know the internet computer is hosting Mass Market social media services that um where the smart contracts process and store things like chat messages um and all of that has been made possible by the work of cryptographers and computer scientists and the dfinity foundation actually runs the biggest team of well-known cryptographers in in all of TAC and we also employed a lot of kind of Engineers and researchers famous for other things for example Andreas rosberg the current Venture webassembly was an early guide Affinity Ben Lin the LM BLS cryptography and and so on and and so we you know have a team of like uh almost 300 people which is primarily uh composed of r d people which makes things a bit difficult sometimes but um you know we have uh now just amazing amount of expertise and so we've been able to actually Leverage you know existing cryptography adapt develop new cryptography and just seeing how you can derive so much power from mathematics to create a protocol a protocol that can create a world computer and the aim is for we were pursuing this idea of blockchain Singularity where everything every every online system and online service in the main is rebuilt and reimagined on a blockchain it runs without any anything else you know no no cloud services no servers um just just small contracts on a blockchain and you know I when I started this journey um I thought it was possible but I didn't have all the pieces and it took really six years from 2015 to May 2021 to launch maintenance there's just a huge amount of r d involved um and just being on that journey and seeing the power of human ingenuity and the power of mathematics yeah it's kind of spell binding to watch it but a lot of hard work but yeah just bit by bit you know you feel like there's and possible problems can't be solved but cryptography I think is um probably one of the most important fields of Science in the world today and um Devin what's anything you can share with us what's next sort of for Google and web3 what are the anything in particular you guys are working on that sort of is a big changer or you basically say we keep innovating on the Google cloud service and just make it better and easier for various web services to use it oh man great great question so I mean first off I think the titles panel is perfect right I mean the past present future in my opinion really just what is the future at the end of the day it's about developers it's about users and really just what is this narrative about right uh there's some great panels before I think on the VC panel before if I did uh with with Pantera and others I did a personal word cloud and I heard the word infrastructure probably 15 times and then author Hayes I don't know who who's here for that session awesome author was talking about just usability right using metamask and the you know looking at the eth pow token versus the ease token right and that's a user problem so I would just look at this again just about really it's just about users and um and uh really just what's possible and at the end of the day especially with us being in Singapore what are the developers doing how do they look at these Primitives again in my opinion computer science is changing it's colliding with mathematics public key cryptography all open source up and down the stack in just again opening new forms of you know it could be crypto could be uh uh nfts my Medics Collectibles culture whatever but all of this needs to be usable needs to be available and I think at the end of the day from the Google side this just ties right into our wheelhouse right uh we um we're really proud of the public data center or the of the data centers we have the submarine cables and protecting especially a lot of maybe the friends again of that user experience how do you protect DDOS maybe from your nft mint page when you go viral say there's a high gasket where I bought some land for the other side not too long ago how do you protect that site from Bots right click the sidewalks right that's very much kind of a web 2 stack that we can help with so great question but I think it's just there's all sorts of interesting lines and spectrums of those lines in terms of what's uh just what excites us most and how we can help people Sam anything that's on the roadmap for our wave anything what are you guys working on what are you excited about as like a big next thing yeah so we have 2.6 we released the test net for it uh this week actually um which is a fairly major upgrade to the protocol which essentially uh makes mining much more efficient in terms of data storage rather than CPU usage so once this is done you you should really be able to just plug in more or less a Raspberry Pi into the system uh and mine alongside everyone else and you know if you've got a sufficient amount of um yeah the hard drives attached to that thing then you should be able to mine efficiently so that's pretty cool we think that the Energy Efficiency should be something like 23x that kind of thing so it's it's pretty robust I mean other than that we're we're looking at like we care very much about decentralization and one of the things that we think is under appreciated in that regard is immutability like you you really have to have a protocol stabilize at some point it has to do one thing and do that thing extremely well and then people need to be able to trust it not to change again and so with are we 2.6 we're we're sort of finessing like hey we don't want to waste energy and also we want to maximize the amount of data storage we can get for the lowest possible price so this is just kind of more are we if you will but we really wanted to to stabilize somewhere after this so that people can build on it and and create yeah entire economies and trust that it won't change we think this is really uh under underappreciated in this industry like you see with Bitcoin and the the economy that has been created around it is enormous and essentially the the functionality of the protocol hasn't changed since like maybe late 2010 right so at some point the calcification right is actually a big big feature yeah exactly Dominic what's any any big new exciting things that are happening with divinity that are coming up um there's several um big features sort of making their way into production on mainnet at the moment um one uh big one which is I think very interesting to people building on other blockchains is that the internet computer is powered by the single chain key crypto and it's been a the protocol has been adapted so that small contracts on the internet computer can create transactions on other blockchains like sign transactions without having a private key and um where there's a Bitcoin integration um for example that allows smart contracts to create Bitcoin addresses receive Bitcoin send Bitcoin there's no Bridge involved the small contracts are processing Bitcoin directly on the Bitcoin Ledger and um albeit you can create some kind of local cache to reduce the cost of transferring them but that that allows people for the first time to create D5 for Bitcoin you can carry smart contracts that defy contracts that behave as though they were actually hosted by the Bitcoin Network itself so that's a big deal then the other thing we just demonstrated um was the recreation of a front end for uniswap uh on the internet computer so you fully decentralize the stack so one of the problems for D5 ethereum today is that while the smart contracts are decentralized if they're controlled by a Dao decentralized autonomous organization which unit swaps are although the rails the underlying Financial rails that are centralized the user experience typically runs from Amazon web services and The Regulators look at this and they say well your smart your defy rails are decentralized but wait a second where's the user experience coming from oh right you you developers are running this on Amazon web services and it's your credit card that's being used so we're going to hold you responsible for the whole thing and that's why uniswap delisted half of its tokens so um we kind of took that as a demonstration Unison front end re-implemented it with internet computer smart contracts and you can now authenticate to ethereum using your fingerprint because there's a thing called internet identity and you can do face ID and fingerprint and so on and this thing um basically uses the Changi crypto functionality on the internet computer to have its small contracts signed the ethereum transactions which are then relayed to ethereum nodes um and so now you have um a unisaw front end running in an entirely decentralized way from the internet computer where you can authenticate using a finger fingerprint sensor on your laptop or face ID on your phone instead of you know something like metamask which is a you know browser plugin and server you guys right from the Chrome web store okay been switched off I think once in the past but um yeah so that means you know D5 can now be fully fully decentralized I think that's actually a big step forward and I think uh in in the once the news about this thing spreads I think you know in the coming months we're going to see a lot of D5 front turns running on the internet computer rather than from Amazon web services so I'm hugely excited about that um pulling back a bit or zooming out a little bit you know we used to have a time where um maybe AWS or Google Cloud was powering the Yandex taxi service in Russia and maybe even you know D shushing you would order DD and in the last years it seems that you know we have a political sort of we almost have a trade war between China and the US we have a full-on war with Russia now we saw all of the Silicon valley-based web service providers pulling the plug on I think every Russian citizen even though they're not necessarily were sanctions but just to be safe sort of you know we stopped providing stripe stop providing payment services Visa MasterCards stop providing payment services and so I think now we're going to a world where you know DD shushing is hosted on the Alibaba cloud Yandex is you know Yandex taxi is hosted on the Yandex cloud and then Uber might still be on you know Google cloud or AWS and so this is you know a bit of a question but also a bit of a statement I think as we're seeing actually unfortunately less Global cooperation among regions I would say roughly China Asia Russia and then the West are starting to become sort of these technology Islands um which you know we all think is probably you know not a great quality or it's not it's not progress um I do think that this data sovereignty or this computation sovereignty I think actually becomes extremely important again um that we have credibly politically neutral Technologies that you know the Chinese government can trust the Russian government can trust and the West can also trust as well and so um I think I you know you're welcome to add any thoughts on that on if if you think we're getting it's getting better or worse my experience is things are not getting better um that might also be right it might also be an age thing the older you get the more problems you see in the world the rumor has it that I mean I think you know the SEC made some um kind of scary arguments that because the majority of ethereum nodes run in the US and you know most of those ethereum nodes run on Amazon web services either directly or indirectly through infuro say that the US government has Primacy and dominion over ethereum transactions and there's a rumor that they're working on a mempool filter for ethereum so it's going to be interesting to see how that goes and I you know I think that the way forward is people need to make sure that their blockchains are balanced with ideally the majority of nodes outside of the US because this this battle is coming and it's coming I think much sooner than people realize yeah and I think it matters that we build yeah credibly neutral politically neutral technology infrastructure um because we do all benefit if the world uh globally collaborates versus building their own little technology Islands yeah and if I could add to that point I mean I I think it's a fascinating question right and you know the balkanization right of if it's compute if it's storage if it's Services um and and I think maybe as an industry especially you know as you know as a web 3 Industry or people that are curious about web3 I think the broader question is more transparency it could be quite interesting right you know this data blockchains the state of public RPC the state of just interconnectedness and uh again just back to those open source principles ideally everything's open source code it runs on a Docker container it's flexible um and I think only with those Primitives and then on the side of that just being as an industry more transparent in terms of that infrastructure I think it can really help back to that narrative yeah I mean I mean it's flashing at us just say wrap up but I would just say look like that the point of a protocol is to be neutral and and we see that the history is is full of protocols that have helped us um communicate across difficult barriers the one that actually comes to mind for me is like paper like we paper has been used as a technology across time amongst all sorts of groups of people that are mutually distrustful and I think we're starting to see that some crypto Protocols are reaching that level of Crypt of neutrality really probably only Bitcoin at this point but the the instance that stuck out for me was when Ukraine offered Bitcoin as a currency to Russian soldiers that gave themselves up yeah that is people that are basically like they're about to kill each other can use this protocol uh as a as a safe way to interact um yeah neutrally so so I think that there is progress there but I I I do kind of think that we're not moving fast enough probably on that front thank you everyone um we have to wrap up thanks very much thank you yeah thank you thank you [Applause]