Bitcoin Season 2 - TOKEN2049 Dubai 2024

hello hello we are not going to talk about the healing we are going to talk about the doubling um price go up right and okay cool um these are all my oldtime buddies and we have fought the War on like the block siiz war and the Jan Jan's not here hopefully like all this war that we have fought before and we all won and now we are getting to season two like season one is all about the block size the lightning and then now we are into season two because like Bitcoin used to have a really good like like still have a really good like monetary gravity effect right it's like the fat is growing when it comes to um mind share when it comes to everything but we don't have like enough like monetary velocity on top of that Bitcoin and I think we can probably start the question with like munique because like munique has been building Bitcoin Layer Two be like before Layer Two is even a thing like it's that even before like Layer Two on ethereum was like even a thing right and so it has been ages and then so how do you see the current like landscape of like Bitcoin layer too like given like like Bitcoin is slow like the development of like Bitcoin ecosystem is slow but like the good thing for us is we have this had time machine to see what's happened on like the ethereum universe and then learn from from them and now the liquidity is like highly fragmented in like the whole ethereum like Universe with like 20 30 like different layeres out there and then so how do you see that happen for Bitcoin yeah from uh first of all hi everyone excit excited to be here and I think I'll start off by uh there was a tweet by Kyle Sani from mcoin uh yesterday and he was basically saying that hey the biggest problem with Bitcoin right now is that there are so many different like l2s and uh protocols like brc2 or arals and this and that and I was like hey wait a minute I thought the biggest problem with Bitcoin was that nobody ever wanted to build on bitcoin right so so I think like imagine how much has changed just in the last one year that people are saying hey the biggest problem is there's too much happening like there are too many standards too many l2s launching and stuff like that and I think that's just an amazing thing um and that is a very very big shift that's why we are calling it the Bitcoin season 2 I think some of us saw us a little earlier than others but um it's it's it's it's happening now cool and so from Matt and yeah so Matt has been building forever and then so how you can handle all this like mental aging like in so in crypto right like and so from tbtc to thesis and then now to muzzle and you have been just like like heartbeating like the Bitcoin season 2 forever right just like you're hoping for this day and then so how do you see we can fix like first like how we can fix this a monetary velocity problem and how we can potentially unify uh this fragmentation problem yeah yeah so the way that I look at it is um early on I ran a Bitcoin payments company when that was something we could talk about before lightning and what I learned running a Bitcoin payments company is no one wants to spend Bitcoin right so I think we know in this market that the answer can't be just move Bitcoin faster it needs to be stable against Bitcoin it needs to be lending and um it needs we need to go where the users are and that's not not payments anymore um so that's our plan with meso and so for Lanka so I I see the L2 ecosystem as more like every team trying to build their own sequencer So eventually interoperability between the l2s are going to be a big question and we you really want to innovate but at the same time you don't want to be fragmented so at Babylon because of Bitcoin staking we're looking to bring this shared sequencing so that either you use the Bas layer validators to go and help it out or there are like other interesting designs which can come in to help the L2 space but we're super excited I think I completely Echo with mun's Point more is better yeah yeah I think I think it's like a free market solution right like you you let the builders come in they're going to throw up like 20 50 different solutions some of them are going to stick some of them are not going to stick so I'm I wouldn't worry about you know fragmentation at this Point like we're too early right now like if you if you look at you know Bitcoin is like depending on the market price with $1.2 trillion in capital less than 1% of it right now is actually deployed like we are at a very very early stage and I would like to see that number move right like to 1% 5% 10% at some point like imagine coinbase is a single company and it sits on something like you know 7% of Bitcoin Supply that's one company Ledger as well so if you count Ledger like Ledger said 10% like more than 10% yeah yeah but those are at least Hardware Hardware wallets this is a single company and and Bitcoin ETFs as well right like they're they're um they're they're buying up Bitcoin I think at some point BTC deployed in l2s would be more than BTC held at the ETFs right and I think that would be a very interesting metric metric to to watch for yeah uh like this will so like this will lead to my next question so we talk about that like there's like active Bitcoin and like passive Bitcoin like active Bitcoin is all the bit Co that's on chain right like wbtc but let's do like only 1% of the supply and like Matt has been working on tbtc like for like three four years and then it's kind of hard to scale like before season two it's very very hard to scale this like active onchain Bitcoin and most of the Bitcoin are still passive and then so either in Ledger like dorant right or just on centralized exchanges and now we have the other new flow coming in but like those are all in institutional like custody right so like that's what I consider as like a the paper Bitcoin they're they are not like real Bitcoin but like paper Bitcoin like the real Bitcoin is still somewhere else and um like even all of us we are hoping to get another order of magnitude when it comes to the monitary velocity for Bitcoin and how we can potentially activate more passive Bitcoin into active Bitcoin and also like Sanka you were working on throw chain before like that's the the most useful Bridge uh to move like active Bitcoin around yeah yeah so probably like start from you like how we can activate all this at passive Bitcoin yeah so uh right now the 10 billion rap Bitcoin Market it gives you a lending opportunity between roughly .2 to 1% in The Lending protocols uh and what we see is there's uh because of this ETF Revolution there was an example that back in 2021 when there was Celsius and they gave like 8% on bitcoin yield they were able to get like 43,000 Bitcoin which at today's market market price is roughly 4 billion so we see that the Bitcoin holders like the idle Bitcoin holders they want to get healed y but their concern is they don't want to be bridging they don't want to have other trust resumptions and that's where we are super excited to kind of like see like maths trust tbdc as well as Bitcoin staking through Babylon that can we give the bitcoiners the the Comfort they want as well as keep their Bitcoin on the Bitcoin chain while getting this yielded yeah and Matt like what are the learnings from tbtc and then how we can do better to activate those Bitcoin yeah I mean I think the biggest one is that we have not seen tokenized Bitcoin grow since wbtc I mean I've been trying for a long time so you can put that on me if you want but like what grew wbtc was defi summer and so that was yield shooting out everywhere and then people wanting to use their Bitcoin as more useful collateral so I think we have this set up for another event with season 2 where I don't know if it's going to look quite like defi summer and we all need to buy like food coins or anything but I do think that um people people want to rush in and they want to do something that feels fun and new and and maybe that'll make them money they're not just going to casually be like oh you know my bitcoin's been in cold storage for seven years why don't I mess with that cuz because it's working so so so why break it how are you thinking about this Min yeah unique I think the way I think about this is that um a lot of people have this image coiners don't want to spend their Bitcoin I think I'm losing losing this a little bit but iagree uh can we have a handheld maybe get a handheld mic or something but yeah so I I sort of disagree with that because if you look at bitcoiners whenever there's an opportunity to actually spend BDC like they actually spend BDC the original ethereum Ico like I it's put it in that it was done in BTC like root stock raises 35,000 BTC I still have my 100 BTC with them and they freaking done nothing okay and so if they're not in Latin America like there must be like class action yeah if you if you look at Arnold's market right like within 6 months of Arnold's launch Arnolds are trading like more than e nfts and they're sustaining the the trading volumes right same is happening with with like runes and other other things right now so I think it's sort of like a misconception that bitcoiners don't uh can we have a please don't want to SP spend their Bitcoin I think they don't right now the tooling isn't there right now the wallets aren't there and I think once we actually bridge that Gap like we have the infrastructure and the tooling and the wallets uh we we we we should be able to to do that I I guess I'll take the counter side of that since we were just doing Bitcoin payments I don't think people want to spend their Bitcoin they want to invest their Bitcoin I bought they want make the Bitcoin productive and as so just a generally speaking it's not about spending it's like making Bitcoin productive but that's what the monetary velocity is right yeah but I mean you're right people people will pay they just only if they think they're going to make more they don't they don't want to buy their coffee or pay their rent in Bitcoin I at least I haven't seen that yet yeah I think I think the the the rails kind of like suck right now right like if you so my mental model is you separate BTC the asset from Bitcoin the rails everyone loves Bitcoin the asset they get it right like this is something valuable they want to purchase it they're going to hold it but I think Bitcoin the rails are really really bad right now right this is the sort of like work we're doing doing at stacks and there other projects as well what we're trying to say is can you have really fast really cheap BTC transactions on the L2 and once you have that let's say I don't want to I don't want to spend my Bitcoin but it's super easy to automate like whatever I'm spending I'm also buying at the same time but sometimes people love to uh pay in BDC because of you know the the the Privacy like sort of privacy that comes with it right I don't want to give my credit card information if it becomes literally like a stripe API for people to integrate BDC payments they're fast they're cheap which is the sort of the vision that we have I think this is what lightning tried to do and hasn't been able to do like we let's be honest like it hasn't been able to do it do that so far I I still think that once the tooling is there when it becomes like a strip like experience for developers to just easily integrate fast sheet BDC payments I think we will see a lot more of this happening cool yeah just like talking about this like Bitcoin productivity right and uh like man and I we like talk about like this hyperbitcoinization world where we can measure like like the certain percentage of like wor like GDP like onchain right like the onchain value generation should equal to like a certain percentage of like the worst GDP and so like that's our um just like like just wild dream and but currently like unlike ethereum because that Bitcoin is like a p coin right so like P coin like all the reward like goes to the minor but like not to the stakeholder so like there's no things such as pure as like inflation reward so like like P inflation reward like in like the ethereum world like now it's at 3% something like at like a base yield and like what do you guys think can be at the base yield in our universe and then where is at the base you're coming from like probably can so like start from senka yes so uh one of the ideas which is out there in terms of like ethena bounce bit is a lot of the centralized exchanges they have a lot of Bitcoin and in C Iz exchanges which have Perks uh if you are short the per you get paid funding rate in a trending environment so your short Bitcoin on the centralized exchange you can long your Bitcoin on the staking contract for staking your Bitcoin on Babalon so now you're delta neutral so you don't have exposure to bitcoin but you're catching that funding rate yield so this is like one of the one of the many ideas which could offer a competitive uh staking yeld compared to E yeah and just one to throwout the number and conservatively going to be like 10% like annualized yeah yeah like which is actually much better than likey and then like without sacrificing all this like counterparty Risk right yeah and like Matt you're working on like masso has some very interesting plan as well like can you share a little bit Yeah so I mean when you look at yield across the space where does it come from the money printer one way or another someone launching in a token um and then you start going into okay like LP Fe is you can kind of break defi down I'm trying to avoid the centralized exchange Solutions the returns are great but they make me uncomfortable but for meso what we're doing is we're saying okay well we hope people will want to at least spend their Bitcoin on gas fees so that's a way to get honest yield in the same way that like lightning routing fees is honest yield it's not doing anything super crazy um the question I think is going to be what is the risk-free rate and how high can we get that because right because like yeah because if you look at something like like base for example if you look at these other l2s it's so spiky there's Flash apy and I think um it's going to be interesting because Bitcoin holders so far have not been flash APR investors they've been a little bit slower and more methodical y yep and Muni and so you guys has been building like the defi for Bitcoin for so for like six five years now and so I tried to use like some of the protocols on stack um as well like alies and like bunch others and like how do you see like user like interact with like Stacks like are they chasing you are they chasing utility or like what are they like looking for when it comes to value proposition yeah I think one of the interesting things about Stacks is that it has a base protocol yield in BTC and that is a product that I've seen that it's very sticky like people love it right like even when it launched the minute uh launch happened in like early 2021 and I still remember this friend of mine was texting me and he was like oh my God this this Bitcoin just showed up in my wallet right like this is L1 Bitcoin right like this is almost like liquid gold and you're suddenly getting it and and so people who use it they just love it I think today there's something like $1.2 billion locked in STX consensus and and I think at current rate something like $200 million of BTC is going to go out like this year uh to the people who are participating and that's a very sticky product like during the bare Market people have been sort of like using it and now I'm seeing like other protocols emerge like on on top of the stack L2 like for example someone uh there someone's working on can people earn this yield because right now you need STX Capital to earn the yield so they're basically looking at like once you know nakamuro upgrade happens and and spdc which is our way of moving L1 Bitcoin into the L2 that goes live can you use BTC to earn this yield right so they're working on mechanisms where maybe you're U uh hedging the price risk for BDC to scx conversions but can we bring in BDC for earning this yield and the interesting thing there is you can enable like liquid BDC so you lock your BDC on the L2 you start earning the yield the base yield and your BDC is still liquid right you something you get something like St BDC and then then people have never seen that before right like so that is a again a very interesting product once that goes live I think we'll see that people want to earn the base yields but they also want to deploy the capital in other things that that are happening on the L2 as well yeah so basically like making their like cost of like Capital like much lower right and um um so from my experience and probably de side prior to your like Nakamoto upgrade and which is a huge one congrats um so prior to the Nakamoto upgrade and it's so it's very very hard to use to be honest and then is so slow no let's not soften the words here it's like extremely hard to use right I think the the thing is that when when we launched we were coming from the Bitcoin cam so I think we were very much in the decentralized optimized for decentralization and security right so the L2 right now the way it runs is that there is a block every time there's a Bitcoin block and a Bitcoin block comes every 10 to 40 minutes and users in the same time are getting used to Solana even ethereum or other places so that's like the ux is just not acceptable at all right and and I think that's that's been the focus for Nakamoto that can be decouple the L2 blocks from L1 blocks and focus on giving people like a great ux not just for the L2 not just for Stacks but for Bitcoin in general because I think most people are going to use BDC on the L2 instead of the L1 because L1 cannot take like hundreds of millions of users people will have their first experience of BTC on the L2 and I think that that's our thesis cool yeah and uh probably we can talk about let's see and I have some like the offs script question as well so I think it so it would be spicy like to ask you guys now um yeah so we all know there's a power vacuum currently within like the Bitcoin cev right and just as for the audience there probably just like 10 developer like on earth like to control the future of like Bitcoin but the thing is that 10 of them they cannot make decision well so they just don't want to make any decision uh because the state is too high for them um so what's currently right now is that if we want to have like a better version of like the Bitcoin like um just opco and no one there to like step up and say hey we have to make the change right um so like what do you guys think about this like so this are two questions actually one is how do you consider the future if so if ever possible that we can enable like opcat so like opcat is something very very interesting like for the audience as well like so like opat is like a script of code and that that was there like by so by Satoshi Satoshi removed the code and then consider it it's kind of a risky and then now we want to reactivate the code like to make it like a soft fork and so to make Bitcoin Bas more powerful so the question for the panelist here is like do you think we should push for like opcat and then how we can push for it like given there's a power vacuum out there and then so who should be like who should be the political leader or like like should we have like Alliance like Consortium whatever like a Brandon wood like 3.0 like type of thing yeah probably can start from Sanka so I I like the fact that we want more functionalities on bitcoin and especially at Babylon we are bringing staking to bitcoin so the Bitcoin not having the a smart contract is a major constraint for us but we're using cryptography and scripting to kind of enable slashing so having more functionality through opcat upgrades is going to be great but I think the being an economist myself I think the more important point if I get to the Nuance of your question that let's say if there are 10 developers who are controlling the future of the Bitcoin blockchain uh what's the kind of power they have that they should be using that to upgrade so I'm I'm very so we should take the example from the proof of stake Playbook eventually if any upgrade needs to happen there has to be economic weight behind the people who are making that decision because economic incentivization and penalizing penalizing economic incentives is the way to go so I think one way that we think as culturally and philosophically at at this point is if the Bitcoin economy and stacks thesis and some of these l2s they can make it so so big that I think the economic forces are going to actually push for upgrades whatever is needed so you okay with a little Story Time doy um so I confession I used to be a big blocker and uh for years and I ended up being on the wrong side of that argument um and the reason I decided I was on the wrong side of that argument is because the New York agreement happened and so for for those of you that didn't see when the New York agreement happened a bunch of companies came to together in New York and they said look we're going to activate segwit and we're going to activate a 2 megabyte block increase on bitcoin uh and they they came out and everyone rejoiced oh there's this this direction that we can follow um and I'll jump ahead uh it it would have halted the network if it had activated um it didn't end up being the new direction for Bitcoin but my learning from segga 2x was I wasn't in the room and every discussion like that as long as I've been in the space I felt like I was in the room like Hong Kong meeting as well so like there was the Hong Kong one and just said with like a like handful of miners there yeah right so remember exactly yeah and so we saw we saw these two groups and and and I guess I just realized Bitcoin cannot be driven forward by like a small cabal of Corporations even if I want to be one of them and sometimes I get to be one of them and so for me it's like I I'm I'm fine Bitcoin doesn't have to um aify right now but I want to build all my software in such a way that we work either way and um if we can find a way forward to to get some upgrades and great but please don't launch a company expecting a softwork for Bitcoin that's a that's a ambitious thing to do Monique yeah so I think maybe for the audience I'll give a very brief overview of like how Bitcoin code development is working right now things are actually getting better right so there are roughly four maintainers and there are up to like 30 people who actually actively contribute code now and there are three sort of like uh sources of funding um Trinkle lab as well yeah yeah so Jack dorsy does does does does a lot of funding recently as well uh but yeah so they're they're multiple sort of like uh ways that people are donating to bitcoin CA things are getting better slowly getting better and I think there's core development which is mostly software like they have their next two to three years of the the last time I hung out with them right like um they have the next two to three years actually pretty planned out like they have enough to do without any sort of like soft fors or anything else happening and it's in some ways like you know everybody look looks at Bitcoin as like this durable thing which is very stable it's not nothing crazy is going to happen one one example that I give so I started in Bitcoin in 2013 if I dust off a copy ofit bitcoin's offer from 2013 literally and try to run it today it will work it will work with the existing chain tip imagine doing that with ethereum or like ethereum has gone from PO for work to PO for stake to like what right like you can't like so that level of durability is actually one of the biggest properties of Bitcoin and you need to maintain that right so in terms of the how changes actually happen like it's it's actually a very messy process like it's not documented nobody really knows how it even works in reality what I've seen work is there are certain people who over time have sort of like earned the respect of a lot of bitcoiners and if a proposal actually comes from one of those parties it has a much easier time getting through like you know we didn't see that that much debate on like tap rout for example and we are only now discovering like how many things got enabled because of tap rot like things like bit BM you know we are discovering that Bitcoin is accidentally touring Complete because of bitm and and tap rot sort of like enabled that so I do think there's there's like I personally would never pick that battle like where I want to go and you know uh basically argue for a change because you it requires so much work and effort like it will exhaust you if you're not already part of that select few people who have Universal respect right if Adam Beck comes up with a proposal or somebody else like they will have a much much easier time but that happens over like you know years and years and those people are um sort of not interested in making changes to bitcoin anytime soon so I I really agree with Matt that if you are a builder this is the same philosophy we have as stxs zero changes required from Bitcoin we assume the Bitcoin is never going to change and you have to make your Solutions based on Bas based on that as cool yeah and I think so like the next question um um it's a little bit political like it's actually apolitical um like we know there's a power vacuum from the Corda but the thing is that now everybody is talking about like Bitcoin alignment right so then what are we going to align with because like Satoshi is like not like actual whatever right so we cannot align with Satoshi and what is that this Bitcoin alignment thing like just like like going around because like when it comes to ethereum and then so if you're friends with like balic and you definitely align with like ethereum right and then so when it comes to bitcoin alignment so like I so I've been telling my portfolio like two of my portfolio here so I've been telling my portfolio company like Bitcoin portfolio company that if you really want to align with Bitcoin and probably try to align with that micro saor first like as a joke so then what are we aligning here like what is at the best like like signaling when it comes to bitcoin alignment or like do we have to align with Bitcoin so yeah so probably from so from like Sanka because like Sanka is from Cosmos and then so more on the smart contract world and then but like also like working on bitcoin yeah so like how do you see this at Bitcoin alignment yes so I think that's a great question and I kind of feel like the best thing of Bitcoin is actually like there is no political figure so as a developer you can actually come in and really have this disruptive mindset that okay I want to come and build on bitcoin and I feel like that really brought me to the Bitcoin ecosystem but in terms of I think the Nuance of that other part of the question is uh let's say you build a protocol on bitcoin how do you Source liquidity right and there are some really big pockets of liquidity the miners some big ogs who are holding but I think the best thing which has happened to the Bitcoin ecosystem is the recognition of the Bitcoin ETF because the way the ETF Main and redeem process works works that actually I can see is helping pretty much the security budget happening which is coming so the Bitcoin ETF in in like a very simple spring Mass system analogy the Bitcoin ETF has enough cushion to damp out any volatility which is going to come with halfing and personally I feel like Bitcoin being of interest for Passive asset managers at the passive asset management company with like black rock or something is like $10 trillion or something so when you have passive asset managers who are taking active interest in investing in you that could only put a lot of capital into the system and help the builders cool Matt yeah when you're talking about are we going to align with like big blogger so so I'm just messing around no uh when you're talking about Bitcoin alignment I figure it's like you're aligning with whom so you could you could align with bitcoin's vision so if anyone tells you that they're a scammer don't don't don't listen to that uh anyone who who says they they know what Satoshi meant we've learned that that's not a good idea so after that it's like okay you can align with cordev no you could align with thought boys probably not uh so the other stakeholders I see are miners and Bitcoin holders and I think it's clear that on the network side um a lot of times protocol designers want online with miners um but I think the way forward is to align with holders right because like who decides a hard fork in Bitcoin an economic majority so who should we align with as Builders well we should be helping the economic majority so if you hold Bitcoin if you want to make bitcoin useful for me those projects uh that support that that's Bitcoin alignment cool like Monique yeah I think I think the way I think about this is I'll go back to the mental model of like separating out Bitcoin the asset from Bitcoin the rails and similarly like for example uh I was at e Denver and people were like oh you're a Bitcoin Maxi I'm like I'm actually not a Bitcoin Max Bitcoin Maxi is actually argu with me but there is a subset there's a different concept which is a Bitcoin monetary maximalist right I think that is the elment like like a lot of people relate to that that hey I'm a Bitcoin monetary maximalist which means that I believe in the 21 million hard cap I believe in Bitcoin as money and that actually simplifies Bitcoin a lot because what is bitcoin Bitcoin is money that's the only job it has especially at the L1 and I think that's sort of clarity and simplicity is actually very important like if you look at ethereum human like e was trying to do like you know ultrasound money but it's still a very experimental development platform so it needs to upgrade it needs to change Bitcoin L1 doesn't it's money it needs to be durable it needs to be stable right so I think this monetary maximization is sort of like a thing I can align with and then all the experimentation can happen on the l2s so it's it's a little bit like you you are you align with the 21 million hard cap Bitcoin is money and then it's a free system then you're open to experimentation do whatever the hell you want to do with this system it's open it's permissionless you're a developer whatever you want to do go ahead and knock yourself out y 100% with you munique and my mental model is like the layer one Bitcoin is like a m0o like when it comes to like the monetary term right we have like a m0 as the spot Bitcoin and like everything happen on top of that it's like a M2 right so it's just like so it's a very easy mental model like even for like the newcomer like to relate with as well uh we have like less than 10 minutes and then so let's zoom into some of the personal Journey uh with like each of you guys and um because I okay probably startu from Monique and you uh have like gray hairs now and like it used to be all black you look great um yeah and and so like crypto is like crazy right so it can be really like like mental aging like on all of us and then so for most of my pretty much all of my 2017 portfolio Founders like most of them they either check out retire or like broke like there's nothing in between right so like like what keeps you going right yeah so for like 10 years 10 years you're 11 now so one of our earliest investors in the ball of account he's actually here in Dubai um I was with him yesterday and he said that in crypto the number one rule is survive 100% if you stay alive you'll be fine right you'll be fine you will you will figure it out you will be successful and I think that's like that and that that has been sort of like a thing that we've been doing it's like I have this mental model that you know um I sometimes I tell myself like hey live to fight another day right if you're having a really bad day or something's not working whatever just just live to fight another day we'll come back to it right um in terms of like I do think like if you look at the last cycle like how many companies blew up how many bankruptcies happened right like it's like people who are um who believe in the fundamentals who are doing the right thing like I think eventually it sort of like works out and then you have to then you have to prepare like for example when we are building a team like we actually onboard people to this mental model that is very volatile there are these like bull runs which are expansion periods there are you know like almost like threeyear bare markets but if you like prepare people that this is how this world is just sort of like mentally train yourself to to mostly be running a marathon but then Sprint for like one year when it's like the bull market which is sort of like where we are right now yep and Matt what about you yeah so like so I would just want to add like like a very quick color like we were just talking about the 2015 2016 satosi round table like back in the day when I Matt probably on the other side and then yeah so Matt so how do you guys do this Venture Studio stuff because it's very very hard to keep the team yeah within the space and then so you have amazing like team retention on Theses yeah yeah so um wise man once said stay humble stack SATs um a lot of our focus with hiring is people who won't let it go to their head when they make their Millions I think that um something that's really important for this audience to remember is like you're not brilliant it's a bull market right and once you find the people who are aligned and who understand that and then they just want to see the world change so for me that was I I was deplatformed by PayPal back in 2013 for some of my teams it's like uh you know they wanted an alternative to some chat program to only fans all over the place anywhere you see someone I think being censored I I think that's incredibly motivating and um and yeah I mean the right people will stick around uh bould bear and I think it's on us to hire those people cool yeah yeah so I think I lost a lot of hair that and I regret that uh but like yeah but I think this Market cycle is very different than the other two Market cycle 2017 was very speculation driven 2021 lending driven I think this is the first Market cycle with igen Lair Babylon you're seeing that crypto infrastructure products have really arrived and when you look at short-term risk-free interest at 5% and the crypto industry the Bitcoin the eat they're still at like 60 70 grand uh the what I see is like the market is really pricing crypto with the product fit crypto with the infrastructure build so I think that's a great journey for everybody who wants to enter the space uh to invest to build cool yeah and I think like for our space it's so it is not for survival for the fittest and there's not such thing as the fittest right because we have to just like keep evolving and like keep adapting uh it's more about survival for the last remaining so we are like remaining and then so still hustling and still grinding and um yeah so probably like the few last thing is um if you have like any advice or or just like just like any advice or just like quick tldr for like the new bitcoiner and then so like like what are the advice that you want to give them and so from Sanka so maybe the first thing is I always like to give out some open ideas like if you have like developers looking for new ideas so one of the big discussion points we had on the panel was like these different l2s being built on bitcoin so the interoperable layer let's imagine like someone wants to build an IBC for Bitcoin to make these L2 is interoperable that would be a great benefit uh the tooling the wallets and everything like what if you're an eth maxi and and you know how it to move between the l2s on E and the base chain can that same seamless experience come to bitcoin so those are some great ideas uh whether you want to build it on any of our protocols want to reach out to us we' be very open for it and I think like the Bitcoin ecosystem is moving towards in the same direction in terms of like language preference so if you're a rust maxi which is what I am uh you could just learn rust and you could still build a lot of products so yeah just learn rust and you could actually build on POS Bitcoin or build new ideas yeah Matt like like any wor for like new bitcoiner or like Bitcoin founder two two pieces of advice uh don't meet your Heroes stay open-minded so if I've learned anything in the space I mean the narratives change every quarter um Bitcoin has the most stable narrative but I was there when store value narrative wasn't a thing and so I think you know it's great to be to fall in love with an asset that's fine and it's fine to fall in love with the space but you have to be careful because the people that we're all retweeting getting excited about today are tomorrow's scammers and you have to really focus on like what's the underlying thing that's interesting here and I think that's uh that's Freedom so yeah y munique all right so for new Bitcoins uh I feel like I'm I'm in some like you know everybody is like in some WhatsApp groups where your friends are suddenly excited about crypto and so on so I think I I saw a message recently and this friend was there was a recent dip I guess and like 20% 30% something and he was like hey should I cut my losses or do what I was like wait a minute if on a 20 to 30% dip you're in negative you have the wrong portfolio right you you need to exit your portfolio because a 20% dip is like a Tuesday in crypto right like it this just happens all the time so I think I think my my advice to people is um first of all personally I separate Bitcoin from everything else like Bitcoin for me is savings technology right so you are just like you do savings every month like this is how you think about Bitcoin like if you want to where are you putting your savings that's Bitcoin then you have some sort of like experimental money right like sure some people like to go to casinos but you need to realize that you're sitting in a casino right now right if you're buying meme coins if you're you know investing in some new thing like it's I think crypto is like a combination of all these different things some of them look like new startups you're actually trying to invest in something which is like a startup idea versus um like a casino ticket which is a meme coin but you have to like mentally separate those out have a very separate category for what is my savings what is my sort of like play money what is my um experiments that I want to learn right like the one of the best things people can do is actually try to use the products like especially with the Bitcoin l2s coming and these new yield products coming and new wallets and whatnot like the more you actually um sort of like do it yourself and try to like Tinker around and play with things if there's a new D5 protocol instead of thinking that hey how do I make money on this why don't you become a user why don't you actually try to use this thing and try to understand what it actually does and I think the money sort of like follows from from that sort of curiosity yeah cool I think we're perfectly on time and okay so thank you for all the panelists and then see you guys in the next helping okay all right thanks a lot see you guys