Taking the Temperature of the Institutional Crypto Space - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

so my name is Eric Turner uh I'm the CEO at Missi we're a market data company focused on providing crypto data for institutions um we have a great group here today uh we're going to be talking about the uh taking the temperature of the institutional crypto space and some of the trends we're seeing today so so how about everybody kick off uh we'll go around do a round of introductions and then we'll get started sure so my name is Chris Tyra um head of institutional at bullish bullish is a uh regulated crypto exchange uh that's institutionally focused we launched a little over three years ago uh We've grown very quickly in that time and we're now sort of top five venue for spot Bitcoin and eth liquidity uh thanks Eric um my name is David Rogers I'm the Apex CEO of B2 C2 um we've been in existence for about 10 years now we're one of the original and largest providers of liquidity credit and Market making services in the digital asset space uh probably trading between 5 and 10% of bitcoin's legitimate measurable daily volume and um do a number of things from running a large OTC business to funding derivatives uh Inventory management and uh tokenization projects hey everybody my name is Mike Bel I am founder CEO of bito I think we're the largest in independent custodian in digital assets we are mostly known in the US but we've got custodians in Switzerland Germany Dubai Singapore a number of them and uh continue to push forward on digital assets base since 2013 uh hey everyone I'm Ryan rasmason I'm the head of research at bitwise Asset Management we're a crypto asset manager based in the states and launched uh Bitcoin ETF and ethereum ETFs and have been around since 2017 helping Wall Street institutional investors financial advisors and the such uh access crypto all right great well I think the best way to kick off here is probably one of the bigger stories this year when it comes to the institutional space and what we've seen um Ryan you just mentioned it you know we had the launch of the Bitcoin and the eth ETFs uh in the US and we've seen some others pop up um in other places so I'm curious when we look at the ETFs have we seen you know we've obviously seen those be successful um but we have have we seen new participants enter the space what is the mix of the institutional side uh what does it look like today has it changed at all with those launches yeah it's it's really interesting so the Bitcoin ETFs that launched in January have been the most successful ETF launches of all time collectively across the 11 different ETFs they've gathered somewhere around 20 billion in assets over the past 9 months ethereum ETFs came next haven't been quite as successful but still we've seen a lot of investors adopt both ETFs as far as new entrance into the market we've certainly SE financial advisors and raas and even some of the wirehouses like Morgan Stanley start to adopt the ETFs it's one of the main ways that they access any kind of traditional investment is through this ETF format it's cheap it's easy to use it fits into their workflow it's regulated uses institutional grade custodians and so uh for that reason we have seen a lot of adoption I think it comes in waves so if you think about the different types of investors you have self-directed investors probably most of us in the room or you know also referred to as retail investors for the most part those are the early adopters of the ETFs you would think that most retail investors might use coinbase might use another exchange might use bullish might uh self- custody crypto but then there's also those same investors who want access to the ETFs to crypto through their 401ks or their IRAs or uh just in their brokerage account where they have a good amount of capital and so that's been the first wave it's been self-directed end client uh investments in the ETFs there's also the raas or registered investment advisers and family offices who can move move a little bit quicker than other big institutions they've been the second wave of adopters and then like I mentioned Morgan Stanley these big wirehouses they move a lot slower because they have large compliance divisions due diligence div uh divisions and departments that have to review and sign off on everything and so the adoptions been really great but it's been slow for some institutions and and quick for others soon um I'm curious when we think about you know obviously the ETFs those have been Bitcoin and ethereum right we haven't seen any other ETFs really approved or ones that are going to be approved at size right now you know for Chris sitting on the exchange side of things um what have you seen people interested in has it been primarily Bitcoin and ethereum or you know have investors been looking a little bit outside of just those top two yeah look I think the Bitcoin and Etha still the vast majority of institutional volumes what I would say is the you know to to your earlier point about how you know the EF attracted a lot less in terms of assets you know I think that just comes down to the fact that like Bitcoin has really carved out its use case you know as a if you if we rewind to sort of 2017 and looked at the top 10 assets yeah sure we had Bitcoin ethn xrp but then we just had a lot of things that look like Bitcoin it was Bitcoin cash it was Litecoin it was Monero it was zcash uh Bitcoin SV etc etc and that's all kind of died away and like Bitcoin has really won that so I kind of think of the the marketplace now as being Bitcoin and then crypto and so if we look at sort of ether an asset you know it has a lot more competition and you know just in terms of like you know is it going to be a win or takes all in terms of l1's Monolithic versus modular um you know as we think about the blockchain tremma are the local Maxima that would suggest that we'll have multiple chains for different use cases and so I think that you know institutions are you know interested in Bitcoin as a macro asset but then interested in getting broad Market crypto exposure and at the minute one of the only ways to really do that effectively is via venture capital and I think in the fullness of time you know that will change you know if you think of the crypto Market it doesn't have a widely accepted broad Market indexes yet um now every other Market has a a widely accepted broad market index and so for the dollar that's the Dixie for Commodities that's the Goldman Sachs Commodities index for UK equities it's the futy 100 and there doesn't one existing crypto um and so I think that you know coindesk is doing a very good job of promoting the coindesk 20 um you know we listed a per on that at the beginning of the year it's traded 8 billion uh so far and so I think we'll start to see institutions push more into like broad spectrum exposure which kind of Suits the sort of Raa type allocation as well that's actually um that's something interesting so I think I saw that bullish is offering a product like you said that's based off of the coin desk indas yep so there's the ability to actually I I think it's perss or something like that um to to invest that way so I'll leave this open to anyone on the panel but have you seen any shifts in the way that the institutions and institutional investors are approaching the space any sort of instruments or anything they're using outside of just what we've talked about you know pure spot uh Investments yeah I mean I I I can speak to the you the I would say the non-mainstream institutional space such as the family office and corporate space here in Asia um you know they are they are consumers of balance sheet um a lot of what we do at btc2 is around um derivative structuring trade or funding is a large part I mean what happens is that when you have an OTC business and you take in um assets on a title transfer business you can sort of lend those assets out um I think generally people when they're looking for anything that involves um protecting enhancing or diversifying income streams they will want to put on some sort of derivative structuring trade so it could be a simple shark fin option structure or it could be a minor looking for a um liquidation risk-free loan that predicts their USD Opex for example so anything anything where there's kind of protection or enhancement around the core product we see quite a lot of um and as I say that the funding business particularly is uh is special because a lot of people for example will run a fund that takes remittances in US dollars but then have a staking business in eth and they may want to transfer the two in the form of a swap um so that's often a common structure we would see um so building on that I actually want to go back Ryan and I I had a question there so you talked about raas you talked about the ETFs being a vehicle for retail to get more exposure have you seen these larger asset managers so you know like the fidelities of the worlds and people that are actually managing mutual funds retail focused funds or you know ETFs um have you seen them start to be interested in spot exposure to crypto yeah I I think across the institutional board you're seeing a lot of interest particularly now we have the kind of economic Dynamics we have lower interest rates as of today or yesterday and you have this more accessible product like these ETFs so all of a sudden adding crypto to your portfolio for a range of institutional investors is this this new thing that they're excited about we've seen the tide shift in the past 12 to 18 months where you go from uh FTX and S bakman free to Larry Fink the CEO of the largest financial institution in the world pitching Bitcoin on CNBC and talking to Jim Kramer about tokenizing every asset in the world and so when you have that transition you have naturally have financial advisers and Ras and investors who don't spend a lot of time thinking about crypto but manage money they manage money for parents and teachers and grandparents and they are certainly interested in getting exposure to crypto and so uh with that a lot of those wealth managers use model portfolios right Black Rock Fidelity other institutions run model portfolios even the large and small raas do the same thing and within those model portfolios what we're seeing now and what I find really interesting going around and meeting with these different raas is that it used to be a struggle to get them to add one% allocation to bitcoin to that model portfolio now those conversations are maybe we're going to add 5% crypto to the model portfolio so traditional 60 40 8020 portfolio but 5% exposure to crypto and it's not just Bitcoin it's maybe 6040 Bitcoin in ethereum so it's getting a little bit more you know what they would consider exotic and uh it's certainly partly due to the institutional interest from the Larry thinks of the world and the you know cios of these large Investment Management firms talking about about it in the mainstream media yeah and to to add to that I would say that you know since the launch of the ETFs at the start of the year um the amount of institutional clients from that traditional segment has really increased like we we've really seen that proportion of onboarding requests move to those traditional asset managers and hedge funds that kind of thing um but the point on this I would I I think is important here is that the conversation around parental guarantees is quite large because um you've got a bunch of new clients wanting to move into the space um and dealing with counterparties that they're not used to and they haven't necessarily established a Cadence with and obviously crypto as a pre-funded asset class they need guarantees around the underwriting of those assets that they place with a liquidity provider exchange and whatnot um and I think the issue of Parental guarantees and underwriting that will become quite important as more of these larger asset managers come online and then then that moves the conversation into sort of balance sheets right and whether or not you can support a much larger Institution um client base because it is again it's very balance sheet consumptive if you if you do that what else do we need to do uh to make institutions comfortable with crypto so you know I think regulation was kind of this forcing function I think getting the ETFs approved you know we've talked about that a lot we've just talked about you know some of the things that um we're looking at structurally but is there anything you know we obviously have a group here and you all kind of represent different parts of the stack within the the um space is there anything that we could be doing you could be doing to make it easier for institutions to make that decision to onboard into crypto to allocate into crypto is that something where it is about the asset class itself or is there something from the infrastructure uh perspective that they're used to you know coming from trafi coming from their world um that we should be building towards I think the regulation is the the obvious answer to this question right so there's definitely a uh uh probably pretty much every institution is concerned about are they going to end up with having some sort of blowback on the other side so the ETF is of course a wonderful thing here it fits within kind of the the known constructs that they can participate in and it kind of takes that away but it's not a very interesting uh step into the market right I mean okay so you can you can have an ETF a lot of ETFs out there but it doesn't allow you to start using the money in interesting ways um we still don't have in kind deposits and withdrawals right that's a another interesting part of the market that's missing but the number one thing that could happen is for sure like uh get the regulatory Clarity around what's allowed what's not so that people don't feel like they're going to get fired uh if they if they go down this path I I think you know to add to that there's you know the ETF definitely solves a market access problem for you know people who don't want to have to onboard the expertise in order to evaluate a custodian by themselves or they have you know for retail they have a Char Schwab account and they just want to be able to buy something through one account and don't have to have you know a separate account on the side you know so I think that it definitely solves a market access problem for certain constituents but the vast majority of institutional Capital comes through banks and right now the banks can't do anything owing to the capital requirements that are placed on them through sa 121 and through Basel 3 and so without addressing that and bringing you know banks in it's it's going there's going to be throttled exposure actually that you raised a good point so uh it's not just sa21 it's also OCC being really negative um but even beyond that you know traditional Finance Wall Street it's all public companies with very few exceptions I get up Fidelity I guess but in general in terms of being counterparties to each other it's public companies public Financial disclosures Etc now those things fail as evidenced by 2008 but it gives them a buffer it gives them something to point at hey there's a whole regulator there's all these disclosures you know they can count on that and when the traditional Finance team teams companies came to crypto and said hey there's this Sequoia backed company uh it's pretty good it's uh called FTX and let's let's go do that and of course they got stung so they've learned that the diligence from Silicon Valley is pure crap and they can't touch private companies and so they've definitely got they definitely gun shy around that so we've seen this with the ETF right what happened all the initial custody with the with the exception of two that kind to B go you know started out with their custody at a public company and this was designed from a couple of perspectives a greasing the skids for the smoothest path through the SEC but B it's also true like there's one company in the crypto space that's public only one right one major one um so anyway getting getting more public companies I hate to say it probably is uh a pretty good unlock for the traditional Financial firms and and to add to that I I would also say that um the crypto industry probably isn't doing itself many favors by trying to play that kind of geographical or regulatory ARB like you know people are constantly trying to set up companies in jurisdictions that they don't necessarily have an in institutional presence in and trying to sort of Port that in as a marketing technique into that that jurisdiction and I I I think that's that's the problem right and um with you know we we are go we're here in Singapore today we we're going down the the the road of getting our Mass license and that is a long and arduous and expensive process right so it's it's understandable why firms don't want to do that but what I I mean to Mark's point I I think that regulatory acceptance is really the only game in town and if you are to move into those sort of centralized um you know traditional asset managers you're going to need that badge um from the the the major licenses a lot of firms choose not to go down that path that's their prerogative but I think that if there if the direction of travel is to move to those hedge funds and asset managers that we're talking about coming into the space I think they're only going to deal with regulated well- capitalized stable stable companies Mike you were mentioning that you know a public company for large institutions is the path of least resistance it's something they feel comfortable with um what's going to change that for the space I mean you said there's one that everybody knows about but you know in the US but do you think that we're going to see crypto companies that are crypto native go public or do you think it's something where we need the JP Morgans and the Goldman Sachs of the world to start offering custody and some of these other Solutions I think we're going to see public companies sooner or later so look maybe it'll be November 5th we start to see like the pipeline of public companies go um or maybe it's going to be another four years eventually that happens um in the meantime you've got the question of will the traditional Financial firms be able to come around and materially participate and look the here I think we end up with a0o to one type of dichotomy or maybe innovators dilemma type of otomy where the the the large firms are looking at a business where they understand the risk and a much larger you know profitability of that risk and so they can operate that when it comes to crypto you still have an inversion where the profitability of it is almost nothing and the the risk is super high so what's the time period where they will start inverting like I don't know I think the market just has to get a heck of a lot bigger in order for them to be able to try to jump over that that risk that they've currently got inherent with crypto yeah I would just add to that that I I think we'll certainly see a lot more publicly traded crypto companies I mean we know circle is set to or plans to go public sometime in the next 12 months or so but for traditional investors raas the financial advisors that we're talking about institutions they can easily allocate to any Equity they don't have to go through some long risk review due diligence process and make sure that they're allowed to do it to them on their reports that they're printing out and that the compliance team are reviewing it just looks like another Equity it looks like a Nvidia or Tesla or an apple and so for publicly traded crypto companies to become more uh more or for there to be more publicly traded companies I think that institutional investors will eat that up especially with the volatility that crypto brings I think that's why you see interesting products like cover call strategies on micro strategy uh there's some ETFs that have been really successful in that space same with coinbase covered call strategies and so investors will eat it up as long as the opportunities are there and the products are there and I think we'll see a lot more of those coming down the pike I agree with that I should I should just to be pedantic I should probably add that there is a second publicly listed crypto company us because our parent is SBI and we're listed in Japan but just to correct the but it but it also speaks to um the sort of the parental guarantee and the counterparty risk side but but I agree with you I I think there needs to be more um publicly list to company in addition with the regulated side for sure but you know Mike Mike touched on it but there would be a lot more if if you had a favorable SEC you know it's it's not for I think last cycle in 2021 we would have seen a lot more applications and I think that you know it was just not a conducive environment to go in public in US markets well I just got called out for being a little to us Centric uh in this conversation so I am curious you know I know we're here in Singapore you mentioned Mas and there are a lot of jurisdictions that have pretty clear Frameworks um for crypto they're starting to at least build some of them out um we saw ma go live or you know part of it go live in the EU so I'm wondering outside of the US outside of us sitting here just waiting for the election to happen and seeing what happens um are there any other bright spots where you're seeing regulation actually become a catalyst for adoption and getting institutions comfortable yeah let me jump in on that um talked about the reg Regulators all over of course in Europe You Know M starts to provide a pretty decent framework along with an attitude that is favorable towards iterating on that to make it stronger um you know of course Dubai and Singapore have both uh been doing a lot of really good really good work in terms of starting to provide Frameworks that work uh Japan actually deserves more credit than they get maybe because they were stung by Mount Cox and coin checks in the early days they actually have a crypto exchange license which is pretty pretty far along so I think there's a number of good jurisdictions there still is uh a hesitancy when the US is negative so you talk to certain groups certain regulators and they will tell you this you know quite quite clearly if the US will lead and kind of open up then that makes it a lot easier for them gives them a little bit of air cover as well but anyway yeah Dubai and Singapore I think both bright spots Europe is looking interesting this is all going to get sorted over sometime Horizon hopefully we're we're moving in the right direction yeah I mean the the thing to add of course is that the US is what 5% of population 24% of global GDP but it's 40% of investment capital and over 80% of derivatives and so whichever way you cut it they're just enormously significant when it comes to you know developing any kind of marketplace yeah and I think just a comment on sort of azian belt as as we're here in Singapore um Mike's right in the in the progressiveness of the Singapore um authorities here and it and it has been good in spite of the you know issues we've had in Singapore and obviously you know public uh confidence was was really affected um with a number of issues we've had here in Singapore but generally I would comment that um through the a in belt um there's a number of different regulatory regimes most people are um sort of crypto-friendly I mean for example you know if you go to Thailand um you know a highly restricted sort of currency control based country but the bank of Thailand has also already got a live sandbox environment for a tokenized version of the bat and that's that's going to be important because it means that um institution institutional businesses and ones that face them like ours can go there and freely move currency and that I think will help as well so I think The Regulators are listening um but I think the big the big Point here with um regul regimes in this part of the world is just that consumer protection sits up here and everything else is below it so long as the consumers are protected going forward um I I think there will be acceptance and you know Chris made the point about sort of the banking sector as well that is driven entirely by government policy and political agenda and once we get that bit aligned once the the consumer protection is there you will see that you know that regulatory um freeing up I think so we mentioned Ma and I think a couple of the other regulations and an interesting piece of the way that those regulations have been created is stable coins are very narrow like narrowly defined they're they're separated from regulation of other types of crypto assets so want to pose this to you know anyone on the panel but I'm curious ious I hear a lot about you know stable coins are being used to Power payment payment apps and you know things that are very retail and and individual facing but what role have stable coins played um on the institutional side recently well I think you know certainly from an exchange perspective it's the you know it's it's fast payment rails it's being able to recycle Capital being able to reuse that capital a lot more efficiently I mean it's funny because you look at kind of like mik as a regulatory framework work and there was a lot of it that was focused on stable coins which is almost like a snapshot in time because it was around the time that Libra was launching and you know that that obviously was the stable that that that never really came to be but um yeah so it's like an over focus on stable coins given the sort of scope of the of the market but yeah I mean I think it's they're incredibly important just in terms of um you know recycling risk Capital certainly from an Institutional perspective look I think the banks have been uh fairly weak on just payments products for decades now right so what PayPal venmo uh WeChat pay uh alipay like down the line like the tech companies are just kicking butt against the uh against the banks when it comes to payments and that's without even having stable coins which started to move around much more freely and openly so uh it's the whole payment space I think is ripe for disruption stay coins can play a huge role in terms of opening up you know especially International remittances uh and payments yeah yeah I mean I I couldn't agree more I mean like the institutional space sort of lives and dies on the hill of value transfer like it just it you because you're constantly moving into an asset and you know again in Asia it's very much an onramp focused Market here um and having that uh ability to move from crypto from Fear into crypto and having instant delivery is everything because you know when I think about infrastructure I think about just you know you could think about pricing and and trading platforms and Algos but actually the real problem to solve is that transfer of values and I can agree more Mike like it is right for um disruption in the payment space it's Antiquated if you can become sort of like that wholesaler of uh of cash and it moves um I I think that's very powerful and stable coins will be the will be The Driver of that even just the basics of 247 markets right yeah so stable coins are going to completely reduce risk and that from Friday to Monday you can now settle this stuff instantly and this has been a you know a thorn in building faster better markets you build faster better markets you get more business long known yeah and and it's also a stable asset remember it's underpinned by a currency you know you you get a bit of a premium when markets are moving higher and you get a bit of a discount when they're coming off but that's stable you know where that is you can keep a reserve and it can fund all things from you know we see use cases not just from say native crypto retail platforms trading that need that but also again in this part of the world you're going to have an awful lot of sort of merchant non-native crypto users who want to be remitted in their local currency but actually receive Stables as the merchant and and they may be building a balance from there they may be affecting crossborder payments with that they may be speculating on the on the market and can you go into other assets and it it will be I think the de facto um vehicle by which we move value I mean stable coins also lower the cost for merchants that's a great example of Institutions that uh can benefit from stable coins regardless of the settlement rails the fact that they're paying lower fees especially when you have blockchains at scale whether it's salano or ethereum layer 2s or some other blockchain that is very low fee you're not paying one two 3% on every transaction like you do with credit card fees or with the banking fees in some areas of the world so stable coins are huge unlock and a huge cost saver from that perspective on its own and then there's all these other Capital efficiency and Float improvements that happen for these mom and pop businesses or even you know somewhat larger businesses that uh you know struggle with banking rails in in outside of the US and in other emerging countries where they just don't have access to traditional baking rails the stable is such a huge unlock for that corner of the market I think it's going to be one of the biggest and most important Financial Innovations when we look back over the past few decades I think stable coins are up there with some of the most important Financial innovations that we've seen I feel like we have a lot of stable coins now um we have one Us doll and a bunch of stable coins that are backed by the US dollar so I'm curious do we see a winner that takes all in the stable coin industry I mean what makes a stable coin good a stable coin bad like what is that edge going to be um if we do see a winner emerge it's kind of like asking like shouldn't there just be one big bank I don't know maybe we call JP Morgan or something I I don't think it should be a bank first of all um of course you should always have a plethora of solutions that have got competition between them uh you're going to have it of course on the product on the input and output rails you're going to have how programmable is it for interfacing with other types of applications you're going to have Geo geographical and and Regulatory restrictions all over the world there's going to be a ton um so like I don't know that we probably have too many right now I maybe that's your point um but uh of course there's going to be many and there should be it's also drisking to not have it all all your eggs in one basket so I I think we're going to continue to see a healthy ecosystem of stable coins yeah I I probably have a slightly different view like I think that stable coins are networks you know and so like the JP Morgan like I get you don't have one bank but it's you know several banks are using the same rails and so actually they interoperate quite well unless you have that interoperability between Stables they are just separate and distinct networks and you limit the uses or limit the use cases so I think completely agree that it's a it's probably not like a a one Winner Takes all then maybe will be two but I don't think there's going to be 20 I mean you look at the way the kind of Europe is thinking about it you know just in terms of the cbdc it looks like they're more interested in a wholesale model um and you don't you know I can almost see as kind of public private partnership occurring between stable issuers local stable issuers and how they interoperate with the existing banking system you definitely don't just want one like that's a far too risky a prospect but I I don't think it's going to be I I think going to the fact that they are networks um there's going to be a very small number that are successful in each currency but but I'd also go back to the point on regulations right around sort of um we we've had um concerns over dep pegging risk and so on and so forth As you move into that regulatory Arena I I think we probably going to have the point where you have approved and non-approved coins and and that could be on the agenda and again you get that gravitational effect towards certain products and others but it's important for competition in an asent Market but I think again you're moving into that regulatory direction of travel for ones that will be and and and I think that'll be a global standard I wouldn't be surprised if we see um from the major Regulators globally you know obviously we're talking about a stable coin bill in the US but uh you know I think that kind of thing will be rep replicated globally so I know we have uh just a few minutes here so I want to wrap things up and I want to go around and get everybody's uh hot take for next year or what they think is going to be most important in the institutional space so Chris I'll start with you we'd love to hear what you think 2025 is going to look like is is this the point where I tear my shirt off and shout 200k and run off stage or absolutely um what's the hot take for 2025 uh you know I so I think that we it seems to me that we've had a very sort of muted uh Market it's really been it feels like retail has been very absent and I think that that's actually a good thing to be honest we've removed a lot of the sort of froth and a lot of the excess um so I think it's going to be relatively Bor like I think it's going to be a continuation of a grind entire I think that we're kind of emerging out of this sort of fouryear cycle um and I think we'll we're entering into a more mature Market um Market phase yeah I mean I I think i' optimistically I'd love to see um a crypto Market is that is less dependent on major catalysts um you know it feels like the last major Catalyst we had was at the beginning of the year with the ETF laun the next one will be the election and so on so I I'd love to be able to sort of structurally move away from that but I do think that the given that what we're talking about here the the institutional adoption is going to be key um outside the ETFs more funding more derivative products stuff outside spot I think if we can start to see that because credit markets are largely okay and in good shape I would say in crypto if that gets going with the retail part underneath I I think we could be we could be in good shape and then structurally we sort of feel that we're at a a better level in the markets but there's a there's a lot of if there I think it all comes down to one thing and this is a little us Centric but November [Laughter] 5th that's that's going to Define what happens in 2025 it's going to unlock or not yeah I think that we're going to see a lot more corporations and Pension funds start allocating to bitcoin I think publicly traded companies are going to be seeing the fact that you're not getting as much yield in treasuries with interest rates coming down and you're ALS Al getting this great premium just look at micro strategy for example when you announce that you're adding Bitcoin to your corporate Treasury and so I think we're going to see a lot more corporations not a crazy number but five 10 public traded companies that add Bitcoin to their balance sheet I think that'll be a good Catalyst I think we'll see Pension funds and endowments slowly do it I spent a lot of time talking to the cios of these firms and none of them want to be the first mover because there's career risk and because they're happy getting five six 7% yield and in credit markets right now and in treasuries but when those rates come down and you have to chase out the risk curve a little bit to get a better yield Bitcoin starts to look like more of an attractive investment a little bit less of a career risk because you need to go find those returns and uh it's a great vehicle for that it's uncorrelated with traditional assets it's great when you add it to a portfolio from a diversification and from a returns perspective and so I think we'll see corporations endowments Pension funds adding Bitcoin yeah absolutely uh so it sounds like 2025 is going to be good a lot of optimism up here uh thank you everybody for joining us for the session how about we give a big round of applause for all of our panelists for joining us