Institutional Flows into Digital Assets - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2025

Thank you so much for joining us today. Uh we've got a great mix of vantage points and perspectives and we'll be talking about institutional flows into digital assets. I mean this is not new but 2025 is shaping up to be a very different year. Um and I want to hear about the latest trends of the products, the instruments, the assets. Where are people putting their money?

And uh as institutional uh adoption makes crypto more mainstream, where are we going to see this go? So Tim, I would like to start with you. Who are the new institutional investors in the space and are you seeing more interest from more traditional players and what are they investing in?

Great. Thanks Lane. Thanks for everyone for coming. Looking forward to the next few days here at Token 2049 and it's certainly an exciting time for institutional adoption in crypto. I feel like every year we're here we say it's better than last year and it's true again this year.

Right? When we look at the acceleration of institutional adoption, the way we look at it is not necessarily just the expansion of products and the interrelatedness between futures and ETFs and the ecosystem. But if we look at open interest as a proxy for institutional adoption, we've seen continued acceleration where when we look at Q3 of 2025, it's it's tremendous. At CM Group, we're seeing about an average open interest of, you know, between 305 billion per day. Just last month in September, we topped out at almost $40 billion a day of open interest.

And then when we look at August, we're also seeing, you know, upwards of 15 billion dollars per day trade at CME Group. And that's about, you know, 200% plus year-over-year in terms of that increase. Almost 100% doubling of open interest by US dollar terms and open positions at CME Group. But I think what's more exciting is when you when you drill down and see where they're going, there's kind of two trends that we are very interested and kind of very happy to see. One is while crypto is hot, certainly ether is hot at CME Group.

I mean, we've certainly seen record open interest, record trading volume both in the standard size and microiz contract. And when we look at the new futures that we recently introduced this year, XRP and soul, they are also enjoying this institutional adoption where the open interest in those are having record highs on some of the record prices that we've seen. But I think the most interesting stat we've seen is the way CM Group or one of the most interesting stats is the way CM Group has climbed the league table for XRP open interest in dollar terms and it's been expansive. So it's a growth versus growth story I feel like with our new futures. But then when we look at soul, it's really interesting the speed at which it is accumulating open interest.

So if we look at soul, it took about 5 months to hit the billion dollar mark compared to ether which took about 8 months. Bitcoin took 3 years and then so uh soul is the fastest one to go from 1 billion to 2 billion after sort of and it just launched a few months back.

Wow. So I think when you look at some of those things those are the interesting trends of where investors are putting their money but I think also reinforces the interrelatedness of the ecos ecosystem growth. Great. And I want to ask more about Soul and XRP in a bit but uh Hunter let me come to you. Bitwise is moving very fast in the crypto ETF world.

Are mainstream investors ready or are we still mostly talking about more crypto native managers? 2025 is the beginning of the mainstream era for crypto. Absolutely. I think for the first Bitwise has been around for seven, eight years, feels like forever. And uh I'll give you an anecdote.

There's a there's a bank in the US that manages over a trillion dollars. We've met with them 50 times in the last three years. And they finally approved a crypto fund, a Bitwise fund, uh for the first time in July of 2025. And uh it's not because they weren't aware of it before. It's because uh the change in regulatory uncertainty and the presence of instruments like ETFs finally make it possible uh for them to have the will and the way.

So uh I think absolutely you're seeing more and more instruments from actually everyone uh on this panel. So there's a there's a lot of ways and for the first time uh mainstream investors from wealth management to sovereigns to hedge funds to institutional asset owners um and retirement accounts are all engaging and stepping forward. It won't be it won't all play through this year. It's the it's the beginning but um but we've definitely entered a new chapter.

Great. And Heath coming to you. Of course stable coins are dominant in conversations these days. Some have called this the stable coin summer. But that also means everyone is jumping into it.

Uh re uh banks launching tokenized deposits, real world asset tokenization, uh an area a lot of people are interested in. And of course, stable coins pose a challenge to retail banking. Are you also competing with the more traditional players out there, the banks or the retail giants who could launch their own stable coins?

Yeah, we don't see it that way at Circle. In fact, we think we're the ideal partners for banks and and one of the things that's held institutional flows back for so many years has been legal and regulatory certainty. So now you see Elaine around the world regulators, policy makers, legislators, executives are recognizing the power of stable coins to literally put money on the web, on blockchains, on web 3. And so that very big development in making sure that we have web 3 money effectively backed one for one like USDC and circle has made institutional flows possible. As far as the banks go, this is a great opportunity.

Remember, Circle has billions and billions of dollars in reserves that we put right back into the banking system. My view on this is that stable coins aren't really competitors to banks. They don't innately pay interest, right? At least payment stable coins that are recognized legally, but really they're a pathway to other types of assets. So, if you're a bank, you want to be able to integrate with a stable coin like USDC, other global stable coins.

So you can start offering tokenized versions of your lending and other products. Right? So for the banks, I think the real challenge is making sure that they're not left behind as more and more of the financial system moves on chain and 2025 is the birth of the new internet financial system.

Cool. And Richard coming to you now. Uh similarly, I want to ask about Binance's positioning now. becoming more institutional facing partnering with Franklin Templeton while also competing with decentralized exchanges. I don't know if you see a hyperlquid those as competitors but how is Binance positioning itself straddling both worlds?

Well, so if I can just start first because this is home ground for me. I'm from Singapore. I just want to greet all my fellow Singaporeans. Hello Singapore. Singapore.

So I just want to make sure that I send my love and greetings to Singapore first on that front. But going back to your question, right? So the first point I didn't quite agree with Hunter. Hunter said 2025 is the year of institutionalization. I would say it started in 2024

because that's the year where ETF starts to be approved. You start to get regulatory clarity. The likes of Black Rockck, Charles Swap, Fidelity all start to embrace that. So the narrative has shifted quite quite a fair bit and circle got listed. Um so you see all the crypto companies starting to go mainstream last year for us last year was a very big year for institutions we saw more than double in terms of institutional on boarding at that momentum carry on into this year right so it's very robust I would say from our vantage point because we have about 300 million users globally from our vantage point the first wave are mostly the trading desk right so the traditional trading desk uh that say hey look these are interesting and exciting exciting asset class.

Um they can do cross asset class trading, they can do uh position taking, hedging etc etc. So those first wave we see a huge uptake and then that followed by many of the corporates, foundation, trust, family office coming through to do allocation. We have countries sovereigns starting to do allocations. We have just announced Kazakhstan working with Binance Kazakhstan starting their own strategic reserve on that front. So we have different countries approaching us by virtue of the depth of our marketplace right which so if you are you believe in best execution best beta spread Binance is the place to be because we have the deepest liquidity.

So you have countries approaching us. So we we see that huge uptake and institutionalization has started to happen and happens at a quite a rapid pace. Right. So in terms of product and services we have different people approaching us on different things. You mentioned Franklin Tempton that's one of the things that we have signed on and we have many institution partners now approaching us on different form of collaboration and partnerships right so on that front and also we have banks and securities firms saying that hey I want to allow my users to get exposure to crypto but I don't have the infrastructure to do it.

So we just launched this week what we call crypto as a service. So it's a white labeling solution to allow banks, securities houses, payment companies if they wish to um to retain their clients to do all the KYC that they need but make use of our infrastructure right so they can trade sport futures custody there's proper settlement etc etc on our platform. So they make use of all the infrastructure that we have and global liquidity that we have on that front. So it is very exciting days. You mentioned the likes of DeFi.

I believe both centralized exchange and decentralized exchange will continue to grow. They appeal to slightly different crowd. For example, for all the institutions that have strict compliance requirements, it's verticate for them to go uh DAX on that front, right? They probably don't cast pass their compliance checks on that. But what we aim to do at Binance is really become be the best platform to serve the best of both and bring together the best of both centralized and decentralized what you call uh CDI on that front right.

So we have launched many different product suites on that front including our web three wallet binance alpha that's extremely popular and we'll continue to launch new products to serve our users.

Cool. And yeah, I want to talk about corporate participation in crypto where we are really seeing traditional capital markets and the wild west of crypto colliding perhaps. So Tim, you talked about planning to launch options on Salana XRP futures. Uh as more institutions, more people invest in altcoins, uh how do you approach your role bridging the highly regulated markets with digital assets? Is it about more hedging tools, risk management, uh are you competing with the likes of finance on this front?

Yeah. How do you approach filling this void or or or that role of a bridge?

Yeah. So when we look at the role and how we facilitate the various needs of the financial ecosystem and you mentioned sort of corporates and and folks starting to wade into that, I think what we do at CM Group and what we do well is our approach to these various asset classes and markets is a little bit universal regardless of the nuance of the asset class. So, we've been in crypto now for eight years with the Bitcoin futures launching back in 2017. And what we're seeing now is that wanting not only for hedging as people have long inventory or term structure exposure to some of these assets, they need to hedge that in a much more traditional sense against the asset specific rebate or idiosyncratic risks in that market. And doing that with futures alongside the digital asset position is a is a great time- tested strategy.

But what we also see is the need for increased capital efficiencies. So as people are figuring out how to either monetize or get some value out of the long inventory, the market is starting to figure some of that out. We saw that, you know, for example, the Bitcoin basis has been around for for years. It es and flows, but there's still a fundamental need. If I'm long the digital asset, how can I free up capital associated with that to participate in that growing interrelated market?

What does that mean for spot versus futures, futures versus ETFs? And I think that's where we're also seeing that need from the market of not only do they want to hedge that forward term structure of the individual assets whether that's through options or futures but or if it's use of things like USDC for collateral or prime services. All of these things that we've seen in traditional finance people are trying to figure out how to unlock some of that same efficiency and access to markets that we are now seeing in crypto. So I think it's both. I think it's hedging.

I think it's access. And I think when we look at everyone up on this stage, it's like, yeah, sometimes we compete, but I think more often we're collaborating and trying to figure out how can we grow this market for everybody. And like I said earlier, it's really a growth versus growth story. And if you look at our firms on this stage, the capital efficiencies, the interrelatedness of all of our various products, if we can figure this out together, I think it's going to be great for the industry for decades to come.

Okay. and wanted to ask more about this role of a bridge to pose this question to you Heath uh you recently how do you approach that here at circle and you've explored uh making USDC transactions reversible recently there are some reports about that can you share more on your thinking on that and I mean is it possible to have it both ways when these worlds are colliding the traditional financial guard rails and the original promises of blockchain. I know it gets a bit philosophical but I want to know sort of in terms of practical applications. Yeah. Can you have it both ways and you can share more thinking on the reverse?

So the immutability of blockchain transactions is absolutely critical. So, Circle is exploring create where we're creating a new blockchain called ARC. And one of the things that we've actually doubled down on is deterministic subsecond finality. So, in other words, the blockchain that we're looking to build actually doubles down on immutability and deterministic ensuring that it's absolutely critical that the transaction once it goes through is immutable forever. That is distinct from thinking about potential applications on top of that blockchain that is immutable, deterministic, and final for all time for the possibility of something like fraud or other other scenarios where people want to actually reverse the transaction.

not again unwind an immutable transaction, but rather have a protocol that folks opt into to take into account chargebacks and counter transactions and hence potentially reverse the transaction. Again, not making it non-immutable, but rather having the opportunity to build on layers of programmable money and protocols that folks can use to solve real world issues. And so what we've done with ARC is we've asked the community as a whole, this community as well as the Tradfi community, what are the attributes of blockchains that you would like to see? One of the things was of course we need actually more finality. We need to know that immediately when we send money across the blockchain, it will actually be validated and we need to know it beyond a reasonable doubt.

We can't have probabilistic determinations when you're talking about billions of dollars. We also want a privacy layer in some cases to make sure that our transactions, if we're a trading firm, are confidential. And another thing that's come up is the idea that if we're going to have wholesale consumer payments, for example, over a blockchain, we'd like to have some of the ability to charge back if all the parties agree like we do with regular credit card transactions. So, it's important that we make that distinction. The blockchain is absolutely immutable.

USDC does not is not reversed uh at the whim of anyone but if the parties want to engage in a protocol uh that is optional to allow some facilitation that's something we're exploring

so sort of a more ring fenced isolated application

it's an application absolutely we want to make sure that that blockchain is absolutely solid and again with circles blockchain arc we actually want and double down on the immutability concept.

Cool. And I want to shift gears a bit to one of the hot topics of the day, digital as at treasury companies, and I want to get your thoughts on this model, where this is going, are they here to stay? Any risks associated with them, especially when market sentiments change? Uh Richard, given your regulatory background, I'm I'm curious for your thoughts.

Keith as well, you know, ke we're both regulators. Yeah.

So um so this again is part of mainstreaming that we're seeing, right? So last year was a year of ETFs. I would say this year we see a lot of DATs, right? Digital assets, treasuries coming through because there's huge demand and that the uptake is very very strong. So by today you probably have about 200 different companies listed around the world that have announced DATs.

Uh we still see very robust take up because I think at this juncture everybody believe is we are still at a very early stage of development in terms of crypto adoption. Today is probably about 7 and a half%. So if you look at the tipping curve once you reach that threshold and with government support I mean the US being the largest economy is extremely bullish and supportive of crypto and blockchain industry wants to be the crypto capital of the world and you have the different asset managers starting to allocate um the financial institutions are now all having their own trading desks and experimenting on that front. So there is a very bullish momentum on that front, right? So would more be coming through?

I would think so. I mean we have a lot of different listed companies that have reached out to us on their intention to set up uh corporate treasuries on that front right. So but even if they do not become a dedicated DAT in many sense you have many corporate treasuries starting to look at allocating into this space right 5% of their treasuries 10% of their treasuries. So that's a big trend going forward. Risks definitely there are risks.

So you have to manage risk well both in terms of your risk management measures as well as cyber security risk right. So some of those risks cannot be underestimated. So in our conversations with many of these companies you know we believe that many of them have spent a lot of time energy looking at their own risk management models including market risk and volatility models. So I think um at this juncture we still see a lot of interest globally from listed companies around the world trying to adopt this trend.

And Hunter I'll ask for your thoughts on DATs and also are institutional buyers increasingly looking into this or is it still mostly retail and yeah what do you think of them?

Uh I I think DATs are are fantastic. If if I may, could I get a show of hands of everyone who owns a share of a DAT? Okay. Interesting. Um uh from from my vantage point, the way things work in crypto is you get innovation and the way innovation looks is people try a dozen new things and then we discover through that which uh which ones will succeed and endure.

And I think DATs are right now running a very valuable and important uh experiment. I think that they stand to provide two really valuable uh things to the space. Uh the first is uh they can bring voice and uh a power user to many ecosystems. So if you're uh forward for instance and you have a a billion.6 six of Salana and you're very imshed in understanding the underlying Salana ecosystem, you can become one of the power users of that ecosystem and I think that that is really helpful to the development uh of an ecosystem and of course there are dats now for uh for Avalanche and and Ethereum and a variety of things on the other end of the spectrum.

Uh I think everyone in this room is probably very aware of this but capital markets are massive and they're diverse. Uh so what do I mean by that? We're chatting with a a sovereign wealth fund who's interested in um buying Bitcoin. Uh but it's going to take them about six months to get through the process. So they own shares of Micro Strategy.

Now uh we were just approved at a trillion uh dollar um uh bank in the US, their wealth management division. It's the first time they have access to a Bitcoin ETF. A lot of them have used DATs, uh, Micro Strategy and others to get exposure. Uh, there is an article in the Wall Street Journal about Mark Casey, the portfolio manager at Capital Group, who's the largest owner of Micro Strategy. Mark is absolutely fantastic.

If you ask him, his mutual fund, uh, is only allowed to invest in equities. So, he has a lot of conviction on Bitcoin. Um, but he can't buy Bitcoin. So, this allows him to express that view. So, how does it all come together?

I think it provides more apertures, more bridges uh for investors to participate and have ways of participating in the space and I think that's very good for this maturing as a vibrant and robust capital market. And then I think for the ecosystems themselves uh what a fantastic thing to have these voices representing and telling the story and educating around the underlying ecosystems but then also in a position to become users be it staking or onchain activities. So I I think it's an absolutely wonderful thing. Um and like so many of the great things in crypto uh would have been hard to predict um and will take some time to play through but uh uh very very excited about the emergence of DATs.

So the value ad being less for retail buyers who can quite easily buy tokens but maybe more for those whose mandates a lot more strict.

Yeah, I think both. Both.

Cool. And turning to another connector of the digital and traditional side of things, stable coins and Heath, I want to come to you on that. Uh, US regulations, the industry is very excited about that. Of course, today the top news is the government shutdown. Uh, not sure how much that will impact crypto legislation that the industry is awaiting.

But I want to ask about how will these dollarbacked treasurybacked stable coins actually affect the dollar? Will it reinforce dollar dominance and how?

Yeah. So the US dollar is a really important international currency. It's the world's reserve currency. There are people all around the world that would love to have access to dollars particularly in a market like this where Singapore is connected with other countries all over the world in Asia and in Latin America and ultimately the medium of exchange is US dollars. But the problem of course is it's very difficult to have dollar banking dollar access you have to go through correspondent banking that's become very troubled in recent years.

So stable coins and particularly a US dollar one for one back stable coin issued out of the United States like USDC is a way to be able to send dollars seamlessly and securely anywhere in the world 2477 as easy as it sends an email. And so in many ways it's not going to sort of expand the dollar necessarily uh as a medium of exchange but just simply reinforce its role. uh everyone who now needs dollars is trying to get their hands on dollars can actually get their hands on dollars. So it's a really important way of allowing companies to save tons of money, time, and effort in expanding. But there is a link to institutional flows that I think is worth talking about, which is the more traditional companies get their hands on stable coins, they're using them for treasury management, they're using them to buy and sell good and services.

ultimately they're going to probably take some of those stable coins and say, "Well, we need to diversify into other digital assets." The same is true, of course, with those folks like all of you that are buying digital assets. You're ultimately going to say, "It's far more efficient for me to buy and sell digital assets using stable coins." And so, it's really the important point here, I think, is that stable coins are really a pathway for institutions to get into the larger digital assets sphere. And on that how do you see uh real world asset tokenization?

I think there are many stages, right? You start with the dollar and then maybe bonds, stocks, you know, what is really the game changer here when it comes to RWA tokenization? What's the, you know, the sexy part that people are waiting for? Um Tim, what do you think? Yeah, I think as Heath said, I think one of the things that including myself that people are enamored with the topic of tokenization is it helps removes frictions from fundamental and foundational markets and the innovation that people want is I think it's an expressing of that view of there are markets out there that still can be more efficient.

So do you sort of combine or marry some of the technological developments of blockchain, tokenization of real world assets, the more frictionless movement of money 24/7. So I think that is all great and I think we're certainly working with the market to figure out what does that mean for the next few years and as Hunter was saying sometimes you know a lot of things will get tried. I'm not sure what will be successful. But the one thing that I would encourage people to also think about is I think in tokenization that's going to be another area where when we look at innovation and regulation at through the same lens and what I mean by that is that if so my background is an equity trader so I I like to always use this as an example is sure tokenization of equities sounds great. What does it get you though that digital book entry of stocks in the US doesn't get you?

What problem are we solving besides sort of maybe making it a little bit easier? And then there are fundamental questions of what does it do to the underlying asset? Do you have voting rights? Do you get dividends? Like is it someone holding that stock somewhere in trust of that tokenized receipt?

And then if you do that for other assets is again what's those things with provenence that need to be maintained on the ledger. I think we need to think about all of those facets, particularly when you look at it on the international front to make sure that we're innovating in a right way that helps remove the frictions because I think that's been a long story to all of our success in financial markets. But I think that's something for tokenization. We have to make sure we're also thinking about that now. So if something is successful, if one of those 12 things does work that we make sure it works for the long term.

Yes. I want to ask about Yeah. regulation and innovation. Yeah. Just based on all the conversations I've been having here, there's a sense that the center of gravity with the industry is tilting a bit more towards the US now with regulation coming out of the US.

Where do you see the real centers of innovation and investments and perhaps regulations even setting the standards happening geographically because we talk about crypto digital assets being global and borderless but they do have to meet these realw world regulations on the ground. So where do you see real innovation coming from in in the coming say year? Um I want to ask this to all of the panelists. Maybe I'll stay on with with you Tim if you can just because since you were talking a bit about that.

I I think it's hard to predict the exact future but I think we what we've been asking for and talking about it for years is from a US perspective we want that regulatory clarity and certainty and I think we're certainly getting it. we're able to introduce more products. We're seeing more companies try to innovate in this space. So I don't know what geographic region it will come from, but I do think the clarity and certainty we're getting from a more common sense approach and framework in the US will certainly embolden a lot more innovation and investment. But I think the one thing that's great about this community and ecosystem is the collaboration across geographies.

And I think that's something where even if just the conversations we're all going to have the next few days, I think you will see that of what is the combined innovative force that doesn't necessarily respect one geographic boundary or another, but as long as it comports with their individual countries regulation framework, I think you'll actually see a lot things that are or willing to try. So maybe we try 15 instead of 12, you know, soon. But I think it's got to work for both.

And yeah, Hunter, if you have thoughts you want to contribute.

Uh, yeah. I I I I think it it may not be the the most surprising interesting to people, but I think the US has has sprinted uh sprinted to pushing uh pushing the line forward. Um, I think uh, Chair Atkins and Commissioner Pur and the SEC staff and and Chair Fam and the CFTC just incredible uh, pace and uh, openness to trying to figure out how to foster um, innovation and uh, clarity in the US. I think other uh, other uh, governments and regulators around the world are taking note of that. So we operate in Europe as well and in the UK the FCA has had a ban on crypto ETPs for as long as I can remember and that ban is lifting on October 8th.

So the UK uh will will have access to ETPs uh for the first time. So uh I don't think it's just US story. I think I think um it's just that recently the US has really changed its status. And I just wanted to touch on one other thing that Tim said um that I was thinking throughout this panel. I think sometimes uh if people are on Twitter or other places there's a lot of conversation about this versus that and um uh I hope that everyone has in their minds that the story of this space is actually everyone in this room and on this panel versus the world and versus nothing happening and nothing changing.

And sort of as I was listening to to the answers on the panel, I was sort of inspired because you can see how many talented people are working to solve problems to drive things forward. Um and uh and I hope that that's people's mindset which is that uh the ships of this space are going to rise together and there's an incredible number of people working to advance things. Um and of course that pertains to uh to different jurisdictions approaches to regulation now but certainly the projects in this space

and are we going to see some sort of chat GPC moment equivalent in the crypto world? I mean has that already happened perhaps in a different form uh or even out of Asia? Could there be like its own version maybe the equivalent of some sort of deepsek moment in in crypto from this region? What do you think Richard?

Well I just want to go back to the point that you make just now on regulatory clarity and innovation. The two does not equate to each other. Right. So my view is that you know for the longest time this particular asset class has been embraced by retail and the institutions have been pushing back. The regulators were sitting on the sideline to say that you will go away uh you'll not go mainstream etc.

But that has changed last year. Right? So um regulatory clarity does not equate to innovation because innovation has been taking place all these years right from ICOs to DeFi summer etc etc right so innovation will continue to advance at a very rapid speed throughout the world regardless of whether that part of the world are giving it regulatory clarity but what is happening now is the US is giving huge regulatory clarity huge support so you see a huge wave of institutional adoption and deployment and you're going to see much more product features coming through on the institution front. So that's what I'm going to that's why we're going to see but innovation is going to happen throughout the world because the rest of the world is looking at what the US is doing on that front and say hey if you want to make sure that you continue to bring in foreign direct investments bring the best of talents to be based there you need to catch up or match and surpass what the US is trying to do in this space right so I do think there's a fair bit of global competition that's going to take place on that front as each country is trying to improve its competitive edge right so that's I'm going to see um what's else in terms of innovation? It is too difficult to predict.

This space is like AI space, right? The best and the brightest are working. Every day you have new things coming through on this front. So it is very difficult to predict. What we can do is to make sure that we monitor all the developments very closely.

We do a watching brief for each of the segments that we are monitoring which are the one that is gaining a lot of traction which are the ones that both institutions and retail investors are you know having many interest in. So, so those are the things that we are doing as a platform uh and as the largest ecosystem in blockchain, we want to make sure that we are supportive of all these different pockets of innovation coming through.

And Heath, yes, coming

I wanted to go back to your question about where will this thrive, where will we have it? And I think it's circle was founded 12 years ago on a a very missiondriven basis which is the idea that if we build this new internet financial system and web 3 it will not only be a technology that makes things more efficient and effective but it will fundamentally transform the way the world works. It will transform human interaction. It will actually increase prosperity for all. And you see this up here.

You see, all of this, all of this is is the human imagination put to work in a way that has benefited us all. Regulatory clarity and sound regulation and and the embracing of this innovation was by no means a foregone conclusion. I sat in Washington. I was a regulator. And it was only because folks like all of you 25,000 strong here at tokenuh 2049 and the millions of other people around the world that understand that this technology made your voice heard made it heard in the United States made it heard in Asia in Europe and elsewhere.

And so I think that's absolutely critically important. This will thrive only if we demonstrate that this technology is here to stay and there's a massive amount of people supporting it and want it to grow.

Okay. And a quick last one for all of you just before we go. I'm curious, what are you trying to get a better sense of while you're here that is something perhaps more under current? You know, not what's sort of screaming out loud in the headlines. Is there something that you're really trying to find out more from this conference?

If each of you can just quickly share that, Richard,

there are many smart people out there, smarter than myself. So, I'm here to learn and see, you know, what's your next big idea in terms of crypto and blockchain and whether we can be supportive of those. Okay, Andre,

I'm I'm uh we we have we have clients out here and uh I'm very curious what's what's top of mind and in focus uh for them and is that the same or different than clients in the US and Europe.

Okay. Yeah, that's very interesting. And Tim,

yeah, I think uh similar to what Richard was saying is I think what I'm most learn interested in learning is what I don't know yet. Uh when I come here, the conversations are great, the panels, all the events, the next few evenings, the lunches. is I think just really figuring out what people are interested in where we should be focusing next and just really looking forward to learn like I think most people here

very similar as as as we build the world's largest and most widely used stable coin network and as we build an enterp enter enter enterprisegrade L1 blockchain we want to hear from all of you want you to be participants in what we're building so we want to understand what you feel you need to continue to grow your businesses and your endeavors Okay, so that's about all the time we have for today. So, a big thank you to our panelists and thank you all to our audience as well for joining. There we go.