The Evolving Asian Web3 Landscape: East & West Divergence? - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

my name is Augie elag and I'm an investor with CMT digital CMT is a 27-year-old trading and investment firm based out of the us we've been investing in the space for over eight years we've raised three funds and we partnered with over a 100 companies in the space including Falcon X Circle coinbase axi Infinity Athena ethery and many many others and uh it is my pleasure to be moderating this panel titled the evolving Asian web3 Landscape East and West Divergence along with our esteemed panelists Jason Cam from Fest Ventures Kelvin Co from Spartan group Sierra Sun from C Square adventures and Steve Lee from neoclassic capital thank you all for joining to start maybe we can just do some quick intros it would be great if you can spend a few minutes it's introducing yourselves your funds and perhaps your relevance to the topic at hand Jason did you want to go first yes uh thank you ay uh I run folus Ventures we were founded about 3 years ago in September 2021 um I spent a career on Wall Street and sorry there's a bit of echo I kind of hear myself in um we tend to focus around APAC Founders especially the Chinese ones uh as a hybrid fun ourselves we typically cut half a million dollar to to $4 million checks into mostly Chinese Founders in the region uh historically our favorites have been to see consumer applications uh games uh sandr exchanges and SAS SAS software um uh I'm very happy to be here today we've backed things like uh cadisen and steepen and likes in the past so uh some opinion on my side on how the Chinese Founders are looking at the whole Space hi everyone my name is uh Kelvin Co I'm one of the co-founders of Spartan group we started our business about eight sorry 7 years ago and uh we focus on Asset Management advisory and we also have an incubation arm as well as a design studio so I focus mostly on the investment side of our business where we have three funds um our earliest fund is a crypto long short hch fund that's been around since 2018 um and we also have two Venture funds one focused on infrastructure and Defi and the other one focused more on the gaming nft metaverse and uh entertainment space um so we've been investing the space actively for a very long period of time and supported some of the biggest projects in the industry thank you hi everyone I'm Sia founder and managing partner of C Ventures we are a early stage web three investment firm uh focusing on um pretty much everything that's happening in web3 primary markets secondary markets or sector agnostic um and we aim to provide not only Capital but also operational expertise for Founders and help them to grow in the web spray industry um and our vision is actually to bridge the gap between West and East Market so this is one of my favorite topic and prior to fund C Square Ventures um I run uh Investments listing and Global user growth and institutional business for H and prior to join uh crypto in 2017 um I was doing management consulting with BCG New York glad to be here hey everyone first of all thanks for having us here um uh I founded neoclassic Capital which is all estage crypto VC based in Florida Miami and we are focusing on application and financial service and consumer and we are back by Mark Anderson christic Center of under hor and few other folks uh before that I work at block tower Capital which is also crypto fund for 5 years and before that I work at Gman Singapore and Tokyo for 10 years so to your points any relevant information about this topic is I I live in uh Korea for 14 years and then us for 13 years and Japan for 10 years and Singapore for four years so this topic is always something that I constantly think about great thank thank you and we'll get into obviously the topic at hand discuss how Asia could be different from Western markets from user adoption developer activity maybe even regulation perspective but before that let's start with just some context because I would say you know when it comes to web 3 investing in Asia sometimes the region gets a bad rep right too many scams Talent issues difficulty dilc in assets are just some of the gripes that I often hear hear from Western investors about the region now I know you guys don't feel that way given you have decided to in full or in part Focus your funds and your careers on the region and so maybe we start there I'd be curious to impact that decision what gives you the confidence that Asia as a region is worth focusing on for both your funds and for your careers I can't start do you want to go this way any order is fine okay um for the last six years I think we've been very focusing on infrastructure investing uh to easy analogy is I think infrastructure is like railroad or Highway and all those stuff I I think still infrastructure in web 3 is very uh little inferior to web what you see on the web too but I we personally uh we as a firm we think that we've we've done enough in infrastructure investing so we want the people to we want those uh the people to build something that people can enjoy such as such as department store such as convenience store such as clothing store so when I that's why our firm is uh focusing on applications and if you look at the web 2 industry uh a lot of a fundamentally strong project infrastructure is also born out of Western World and then that's why I think Western world has a more Nobel Prize winnner because they love to think fundamentally uh however those region that makes the infrastructure more stronger for the user adoption is I believe that Asia China Korea Jaan gaming and consumer apps making things pretty making things sexy making this easy to use so we as a firm we want to bet on us Japan Korea Market particularly uh Asia markets because we we believe that we are approaching to the period where the application use cases more major adoption for the consumer is is imminent so that's how we view the Asia Market has huge potential and that's why we are focusing on Asia consumer and adoption Financial service well I I think like earlier in the Years uh when they say there's like a bad reputation in Asia uh is because Asia was moving a little bit behind on regulatory Frameworks um for crypto and blockchain in general so you know when you don't have a very sound foundation for compliance and regulations Builders like they don't know what to follow right and also there were very strict rules for launching tokens or like operating ex changes um in like mainland China where we see most of the founders in like early 2018 and 20 2019 in the industry however all all these have changed uh with very clear rules in local countries like Singapore Hong Kong is very supportive and we've seen exchange license getting improved uh in many countries uh in Asia and also with Co now is over um travel band all lifted we've seen great Founders um moving into uh more like supportive countries that they can see as a home base and build their companies so I think with all of that Asia has definitely offered more healthy environment for blockchain industry overall and I think to step's points when it comes to in detail user operations Asia definitely has the add right um so infrastructure is more like a western game forever for uh for like consumer layer application layer like until today still like the biggest use case and um application for crypto overall is exchanges and all of the top Global exchanges Founders are Asian um we really understand how to offer a um user friendly um like uiux and also how to get uh good liquidity for exchanges and for users to trade on so in that sense um I I think we're still very low Asia in terms of investing yeah from my standpoint I think the comment about scams and so on I think that's a global issue right it's not um specific to Asia and having been in a business for more than seven years you know I think we um are able to smell a scam from a mile away so um when it comes to investing we generally are able to see those and generally avoid those so that's not a big issue for us um I agree with uh Steve than Sierra in the sense that um I think when it comes to the infrastructure Investments the West tends to have an edge but when it comes to the application layer you know there are a lot of good application developers in Asia right in places like China Korea India and so on so I think that opportunity is coming and it's coming very quickly and as a firm we've been um I think more active than most other funds in investing at the application layer because I believe is that for crypto as a whole right um for all these assets to have value we need users and today that's the thing that's Solly lacking and you can have the best l1s you can have hundreds of them and they can be worth billions today but eventually if we're not able to build applications that can join the users guess what all of this infrastructure is going to zero anyway right so it's really critical that we start to um commit dollars to bring these applications um to free basically um and then specific to Asia I would say the other thing that's important is the fact that there are a lot of users sitting in this part of the world right and um whether it's um defi you know and trying to bank the UN Bank or it's finding users that would be willing to test out web three games um you know I think most of the users are here right in the Western World um obviously the incentivization uh that crypto introduces may not necessarily be so interesting to the Western users who are generally more well of but in Asia they care about it right so I think user base is here and you know if we look at the um uh Founders that are sitting in this part of the world they tend to understand the user base a bit better right uh because they understand the culture nuances they understand the language the preferences and so on and so forth and then the other sort of aspect that I think is important for us also is the regulatory structure in Asia right typically if we're in investing in a western project um we have to follow the Western regulations right and uh that typically involves um a variety of you know Equity plus token warrants and so on and so forth I in Asia uh we have a lot more flexibility in what kind of structures we can invest in and that uh could be good for our returns in the long run well I generally agree with all the panelists well like SEC being quite far away it's nice I think the users here are very helpful and then the infrast structure is kind of ready for apps I completely agree I'll just add two more things very quick uh one is well it's a supply of capital and then is the supply of talent um a lot of what we do is early stage cstage VC investing uh the white guy at andreon horo doesn't speak Chinese Japanese Korean uh to get the vibe check on an early stage founder barely have a product and only a deck that's like crappy in English extremely difficult when you can't bomb the guy you can't cut a check so uh I think that sort of ring fence a lot of capital and sort of pushed them away from a lot of the founders we tent to back because we can kind of just smell out the scam from a while W it's really hard to do when both are speaking English one of them is broken so supply of capital is one issue and this this tend to mean that the deals in this side of a world could be cheaper because half the world can really invest right so that's a competitive advantage that we to our lpce um the supply of talent uh this is more of a Chinese phenomenon is that uh ever since the mobile internet era uh we have a by our count 15 to 20 million Engineers that came out uh building on Alibaba 10cent mtoa and Tik Tok um I don't know if you look at the stock chart for Chinese stocks it's kind of not only like altcoin charts for the past three four years um so for those really good entrepreneurs that came out um really hard to get funding in web internet startup their stock comp package isn't worth that much uh if they do build a startup in web to the means of excident a share H share and Nas are difficult for different reasons uh and if they were to Pivot to deep Tech they might not have the talent if their expertise has been in building Toc applications so we feel like their natural place is in web 3 um so we have a in huge influx of talent in by my account so both combined it's it's a pretty fertile ground for good returns I think makes sense no thank you all for sharing um and and where I want to go next is actually um the investment landscape in Asia right you've talked about some of the categories sectors verticals of interest already uh I'd love to double click on that right because obviously we all can appreciate that crypto is global from day one in the sense that anyone from anywhere can theoretically spin up a decentralized platform at the same time as you guys were mentioning there are certain projects certain ideas that make sense to be built in certain parts of the world World there are certain ideas that I would argue make sense to be built in Asia because of the developer base because of the user base because of the cultural nuances I'm Keen to get your perspective on this question what are the most promising sectors and opportunities that you see within the web 3 Asian landscape maybe sectors that Western investors could be overlooking I I'll start first because we went that way sorry I I keep talking um we slow down on our private deployment since the beginning of the year because TG has become difficult um but there are two categories often overlapping that we're still sort of aggressively looking one of which is um I would say mobile First Entertainment based money games uh those are the ones similar to steppen where you kind of you know play with it on your phone and we feel like the Asian devs especially in China they they're really used to building something like this a lot of people sort of manage their life on their phone versus having being on a PC so their expertise means that most of the time the Chinese staffs we see are much better well-versed in building something like that on a phone and probably they can compete globally in that Arena given the apps that we saw coming out of web 2 the second category is um you know things that uh go into ecosystems that look a lot like WeChat and a good example of that is telegram so uh uh because a lot of them have seen it before uh uh building a product that leverages weat and scaling meaningfully with their user base arut so if they've seen that episode they know kind of how to deal with a a volumetric funnel that has a huge audience and they know how to scale that user base with the infrastructure that supports it so when the two overlaps we tend to get pretty excited for me I think uh there are two areas that are particularly relevant for Asia one is gaming which I think Jason alluded to um a little bit um partly because there's really a big gamer user base out here and secondly um because there is a lot of Ip in places like China and Korea and Japan and a lot of the IP can be reused for these web3 games so that's one area we're spending a lot of our time the other area I would say would be payments um just because I think the payments infrastructure in Asia is still relatively less developed than the West um there are many countries nature so there's exchange rate differentials as well and and then thirdly there's a large population in Asia that's relatively unbanked right so that again is the opportunity for not just um web 2 fintech um firms but also for web 3 um I think a few things uh first is the Bitcoin ecosystem it's just like from the beginning of mining Bitcoin all the way until China kind of shut down mining um uh Asia has dominated the mining power for Bitcoin for such a long time and uh until today still like um 8% of the top say 20 mining fors for Bitcoin still in Asia and Asia Founders so there are a lot of uh Bitcoin Maxis in Asia and they need to find a good way to uh earn guilts on bitcoin so I think that's probably the original reason why a lot of the Bitcoin layer to and Bitcoin ecosystem project that grow uh from Asia uh that's one sector and then uh on the IP side I I really agree with Kevin uh because launching an IP in Asia uh compared to launching an IP in the west markets very very different the initial cost for launching a successful IP in the west is very heavy and um you know all the way from creating the contents creating the IP into distribution and monetize can be a very long process and heavy production in the West Market however for launching a very successful IP in Asia is quite different it's more like a bottom up you just need to have uh good character and contents created around IP and then going to monetize is is quite a shortcut um say like linel from Disney um it's like one of the top selling IP uh for Disney um and it's uh it's arated in uh in in China and then like uh T Kawa and dup a lot of the top IP so um we think that when it combined with web3 whether it's a Marketplace or like a IP um um heavy say like nft or other kind of projects there's going to be a huge potential and then third would be um still like Marketplace related exchanges or Marketplace for other type of um things either it's NT or something that grows uh in the future we think that Asia definitely has to edge for that so that's Something That We're continue looking for um very similar but uh so as I mentioned earlier our focus is application and consumer and financi service within within consumer we picked the three three part gaming IP entertainment social our first investment this year as a firm it was a gaming uh out of Korea I think one just new color that I'll add to the panelists is the reason why uh we don't see much a good I don't see that bigger potential in Western world uh is I think of I've been looking at the web 3 gaming since 2018 uh my previous job uh previous firm we led the deab investment back in 2018 is and then x infinity y GGC Brown Etc but I think key difference is Western World still people are um those who work in web 2 gaming studio uh without understanding web 3 much without understand web3 Community much I think trying to build a web 3 game so suddenly like this look makes sense but doesn't look cute doesn't look nice but it's a theoretically makes sense blockchain game that's the type of games that I see Western World however in Asia Asia world because the crypto leader is way higher than Western World I think a lot of web 2 Gaming developers who work tremendous job in in gaming studio they they earn good amount of web3 sense web3 knowledge web3 community so all the game that I see on the Asia region these days is they do understand how to boost trp web3 community on top of their knowledge to build the game on web 3 and IP uh our other IP side um out of 10 most Revenue generating IP in the world today six of them are Japanese and no one will disagree that they animation gaming etc etc and putting the cabin's Point uh I think Japan is the most Pro crypto regulation in the world no doubt prime minister came to crypto conference two weeks ago I was in he open up the conference and basically saying hey youngster build whatever you want I'll back you uh so that's why we are very focusing on IP in Korea K-pop Etc very potential as SRA mentioned content and entertainment business in IP and also we are very focusing on Japan we do have a very unfair advantage in the markets uh and the two other things on the financial service side is I can relate it to IP into rwa space so I was in rwa uh Summit today ago everyone's talk about private credit everyone's talk about t- Bill which is 12 billion and 10 billion is private credit 2 billion and T at the moment that's a majority of those Rd tokenization at the moment but if you really want to build something new on blockchain that didn't exist before in web 2 era uh it should be something else and we believe that IP can be great fit into it uh IP tokenization so you can for example I'm I'm Korean as a nationality so so if you like a black pink uh you can maybe buy some share uh IP token to tokenized IP uh for the their next albums you get some Revenue sharing etc etc or you have a privilege Prestige access to their Community uh the Meetup or something like that so that's something that we are excited about rwa space last thing I will mention is derivatives as everyone says trading volume mostly a lot of majority of trading Bitcoin trading volume out of Asia region and Asia people love to gamble they know how to leverage uh it's that's that's I think I I'm saying in a good way cuz Leverage is very important sector and in defi space still derivative volume is way way way smaller than spot volume it's matter of time derivatives on def5 should be surpass the volume of spot volume so that's actually for retail so that's something that we are focusing on in Asia markets fantastic no thanks for sharing let's uh let's move on to regulation uh because I do think that is one AIS in which this east to west Divergence can be seen most clearly right in the west uh the West has been somewhat behind on this Dimension most notably the US when it comes to enacting an implementing regulatory Clarity which is in I would argue stark contrast to places like Japan Hong Kong Singapore and so I'm curious to get your view how do you see the regulatory environment evolving differently between Asia and the west and what is the impact that we'll have on overall blockchain development uh I think Hong Kong is a bit of a lazy fair at the moment I guess for the founders we back they felt safer in Hong Kong uh versus in mainland China um I think I think the only color I can provide is uh I'm not sure if the policy about mining about OTC about trading would change anytime soon in mainland China so as the founder grow in size in their fundraising and as the capital that they command increases to sort of move further away they themselves from mainland China away to like Hong Kong and then Singapore and Tokyo and eventually maybe to Dubai if they become really really sizable um but personally I thought you know this kind of Southern Chinese area um is a good place for them to launch a business because at least in Hong Kong Shenzhen is still 40 minutes away from any huge Office Space and they can sort of still be very Nimble in their building process um but I think the rest of the panelists have better color about especially how Hong Kong China Singapore and uh Japan has has a view on this issue I think with respect to regulation historically um Asia has always taken a lead from the US or the UK right just because of History um and they've not had to think about regulations proactively right because the equity markets and the bond markets exist way before the Asian Financial system came about right um I think web 3 is interesting because it's the first time that Asian Regulators have had to think about it um but what makes it more complicated is that the US has taken no leadership whatsoever when it comes to creating a regulatory framework although I'm hoping that in the next one or two years we could get some regulatory Clarity uh Europe on the other hand um has obviously set up uh mic um which is quite comprehensive in its construct but having spoken to a number of people I think they they think it is very restrictive right and that may over time sort of put Europe at a disadvantage um across Asia I would say um generally the regulatory framework is relatively relaxed um I think Korea is probably getting a little bit tighter from a regulatory standpoint Japan's very welcoming Hong Kong's very welcoming Singapore is trying to strike a balance um but I think it is in the advantage of the Asian governments to wait and watch and not to move you know too quickly because um the us is going to be the big biggest market right and uh they don't have a framework in place yet so I think seeing what works in Europe and what works or doesn't work in the US uh maybe a better approach and then sort of trying to figure out take the best parts of what they have and construct something I think will make more sense um but I think Regulators should really at this stage focus on encouraging Innovation um and if they're going to take any regulatory action they should be going after the scammers you know not the legitimate projects as you know typically does happen um in the US um uh I I agree uh that Asia countries can be a little conservative um on the first time they launch rules for an industry well um you know States has been kind of leading the way for either issuing licenses um and uh you know for payment gateways and all that but I think in the past two to three years Asia countries is definitely already catch up uh on a lot of the um Regulatory and compliance foundation on um on crypto overall and for example you know um say that again like Hong Kong has issued um exchange license for uh for users and they classify nft as a commodity and there are a few stable coin issuers that's uh getting guidance from uh the government from Hong Kong and you know Japan's uh lowering tax on unrealized gains and um Mid July Korea has um launched a few documents around um launching tokens and for exchanges to oversee uh token compliance I think all of this has given a more clear guideline on uh whether you are a builder for creating projects getting users paying taxes um or um to better service users in crypto and um I I think all of that has been clearer and clearer um in Asia um and I I think in the next few years uh we're definitely going to doing more investment in Asia bases as I think think that's going to open up more opportunities for aggregate liquidity and get massive adoption of users for Asian based applications uh I'll mention in in two ways one is a global scale the other one is within Asia so I think global scale how I see is uh the particular country had a crypto failures for example us FTX uh South Korea Cara so I think those two country and singap for a little bit of FTX three Arrow but I think as Kevin mentioned I think it's more balanced approach especially they are very Progressive in audio space so I think other than those us and South Korea which has so much retail the the failure that regulator should come into play and then they are building very comprehensive regulation in Korea on July they they release a very big uh regulation uh compliance regulation which actually tighten up a lot of crypto exchange listing but other than those two countes such as Dubai Hong Kong uh or a little bit Singapore uh I think those countries are sort of the country that entrepreneurs should be focusing on a little bit if you want to start business because they didn't have major retail crisis so that's the way that we look at global scale regulation uh and second basket within Asia uh how I view is in China is more driven by what the government government state government thinks and compared to that Japan is more actually driven by financial institutions such as mufg snbc and such because that's the the the kind of institution built up 1990s Japan Heyday compared to that I see that Korea is more driven by conglomerates Samsung SK Hana so even Western People very misunderstood that o Asia is the same thing very different each country has a very different major forces that drives the economy drives the regulation Drive the rules that you have to specifically really understand the difference between this so for example uh the what conglomerate is interested in or what financial institution interest is actually impacting a lot that's why Japan has the most Progressive regulation in stto because that's what financi institution care about they don't care about decentralization they don't care about the crypto Community they care about stto which they can leverage their asset on their balance sheet so there a two way I I would say but to sum it up still us is a us as Kevin mentioned still a lot of country will have to follow the what US regulation does uh when I actually the tour the Japan and Korea meeting all the conglomerates they had an amazing Initiative for last 12 months but right after the Bitcoin ETF is approaching they pause every initiative because they just want to know how the US treats the Bitcoin ETF they how how us is progressing regulation so that's another angle that is important us is still us that that's why we are home based in us I live in us to making sure that we are top on the regulation what the US is actually planing on great so we're coming up on time guys there are two more topics I'd love to cover so maybe for these uh I love your your sort of highlights or brief thoughts but the second to last topic is users right uh this again I think is one of the unique things about Asia that we are sitting in what is debatably the epicenter of crypto adoption right pick your favorite statistic metamask users Global crypto adoption and you will see countries like Vietnam Philippines India Indonesia crop up again and again and and so let let's start with that right I'm curious to get your view on what is it about this place is there something in the water is it the chicken rice what what is it about this place that has led to such massive adoption and what role does cultural do cultural differences play when it comes to shaping web three user adoption in in this part of the world versus versus the West uh you want to start first um well I think it helps when you have a big population base right and if you look at the distribution of the world's population obviously a big proportion is in this part of the world so Asia is important and any sort of web3 developer that's not thinking about Asia probably has has it wrong right um so that's the first thing the second thing is um I think the demographics also played Asia strength because we generally have a younger sort of demographic base and as you know younger people tend to be more open-minded they tend to be more techsavvy and tend to be more mobile Cy as well so that all you know lends to them wanting to explore new things right new social media apps new games um anything that's cool and new um and then I think what is also interesting is the fact that you know crypto hasn't really moved into the mobile era yet right um if you look at why web 2 took off and took off in a big way in Asia it was because everybody had a mobile right even if they don't have a laptop or desktop and crypto byy and large hasn't moved in the Mobile area yet so I'm quite excited for this next phase whether it's via the tan ecosystem or other ecosystem where people start to focus more on mobile users and make it easier for people to create Wallets on mobile to transact on mobile to play games on mobile I think that will really sort of energize the user base out here um and then in terms of how to cater to the audience nature I think understanding the nuances from the cultural standpoint is very important I think having local language support is also very important because you know not everybody sort of lives on English um yeah so I think if we can get some of those things right then we will be able to attract the Asian users uh IA so I think on top of what Kevin said I would say crypto to me is culture movement so if you think that way I think us has more less dense population over the big land compared to that Korea so Hong Kong Singapore Tokyo very dense uh the the basical region that affects a lot in terms of contagious culture is contagious if it's a right culture movement so I think that's a big part that why Asia is such a you know I do this suddenly my friend 10 of my friends got to know them and grandma doing uh on on the Bitcoin trading on train on South Korea I think it's very uh population dense so it's very easy to contagious and what makes it even more contagious is I think a western world is more based on Plateau kind of philosophy which is you think you your own opinion individualism you have your back in your National it's it's it's it's known for the being good that you are putting the different opinion than other people but in Asia is to me is more collectivism is the important factor in this this Asian culture so I like it and maybe you might like it because I like it and of course we discuss but we tend to be more harmonized as a circle as a cultural movement so that part is it fits well with this crypto movement because most of crypto thing is irrational at the moment there's no use cases everyone is criticizing I cannot disagree but I think we believe something irrational that's all we are here and Asia is just as a base on their history how they think I think is very suit for this betting on irrational but something that moves your heart rather than your brain so I think that's that's what I like about Asia region got it um great we we are almost a Time guide so maybe we'll move on to the last question I'll let my last two panelists Jason and Sierra kind of kick us off for this one because I do want to talk about Founders right um and I think the context that's important here is more and more we are seeing sea turtle Founders right these are founders who originally are from Asia maybe went abroad to places like the US to study and to work and are now choosing to come back home um and that's not an easy decision to make right to build there or to build here and I'm curious to get your thoughts on this topic and so maybe the way I'll tea up the question is like this let's say after the panel you guys receive a LinkedIn message from an aspiring founder in the blockchain space this founder is from Asia but just completed their studies at Carnegie melon or UI or Indiana or maybe any us overseas college and so in some sense they're just like you but maybe a little bit earlier on in their career yeah they have a great idea a solid team an early POC the one thing that they have not yet decided is do I stay here and build in the US or should I go back home and build in Asia what advice would you have for this person oh uh we're running out of time um well first of all never reach out on LinkedIn always through TG never on LinkedIn um if it is a highly technical sort of ecosystem infrastructure based project stay in the US because the better access to Western funds get them very very very long right um if it is a two consumer type product might be over coming back to Asia but be very specific on what kind of users to want to Target that's my short answer uh I think two things um whether the team understands the user habits and and user behavior um in in which area is very important and also look at uh what kind of data you're trying to achieve like cost for um user acquisition per user um and or revenue generated for user in different region so just do tons of research and understand your potential user base and then make a decision from there makes sense great and with that I think that's the end of our panel please join me in a big round of applause for our panelists thank you very much