Going Mainstream: Building Web3 Consumer Apps - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

this is about going mainstream and building consumer apps and kind of the goal for us in this panel is to have all of you learn a few more insights from people who are doing this right now and from the rest of the audience um and actually the rest of the panelists who are funding this feature um I want to kind of start off by asking Shane to kind of take us back a few years ago when you started poly Market give us a overview of kind of how the ecosystem was were you kind of excited about starting a consumer focused app were people waiting to kind of build and and use consumer apps or VC's eager to fund these things kind of what was it like a few years ago and uh tell us about how things have changed as you compare this to uh now absolutely uh so when I decided I was going to build poly Market I was not thinking about consumer crypto or uh what VCS going to think or or anything like that um I think if you if you go back to the the Genesis of blockchains uh like when when the earliest thought leaders were hypothesizing about the best killer applications again and again it always came back to the idea that you could have free markets on everything uh transparent free globally accessible markets the global prediction Market when you think about new technological Paradigm shifts often times there's a a a certain few unlocks and like for for blockchains it's this idea that you can create a market uh for free in like minutes uh and and traditionally it's it's extremely tedious to create new markets so when when I was uh deciding hey I'm going to go build poly Market it was the Confluence of uh that I was such a a big believer in the academic research that underpinned information markets the idea that if you let people bet on things you would actually get the most accurate information um and this the the the complimentary to that the idea that people had tried to build what poly Market is today and people had hypothesized about it and I I was a big user and a big fan of that namely also what Joey built with augur and I could I had a very visible uh it was it was very visible to me how it could be done right that no one was building and then it was the timing of like hey imagine if we had these markets at the onset of the pandemic where you could hedge risk I mean I'm I'm from New York City born and raised and every business is going is going bust at the on of the pandemic no one knows when things are going to open up and what happens if you had markets about when things would open back up or when the vaccine would be ready um so I went through and I was like hey I really do believe that this is a generational company that that no one's building uh and I thought that me being the the markets nerd that I that I was and still am as well as someone who was was uh creative and could build consumer products I was like hey why don't I go build this and very early on despite when we first launched it was on ethereum layer one and there was a lot it was very tedious it was clear to me that there was a semblance of product Market fit that just was untouched and uncovered and if I followed that that eventually there'd be open ocean so that was really the the you know the the the trail that I followed um and I think now a lot of time people talk about uh consumer crypto and you know when you talk about the the the traction it's very exciting this year it's been a little over $1.4 billion traded on poly market and what's way more exciting is the fact that a lot of people have incorporated into their News Digest and how they follow what's going on in the world and that is is really the fruition of of the vision and the thing that is motivating motivating to us as the people who are building it um but you know when it comes to building a product for a a large audience consumer uh product development and understanding your users and understanding how you're going to reach them like that there's no replacement for that it doesn't matter if it's crypto it doesn't matter whatever buzz word you throw into it so um I think that it's exciting that we've been able to to to get to where we're at um because it's just been a it's been a really traditional product oriented Focus to to building a company um and it just happens to be built on a blockchain that's amazing um since you kind of you brought this up anyway Joey you uh are one of the founders of augur the original prediction Market protocol um would be great if to can actually contrast this to kind of when you tried augur um about about 10 years ago actually um what was kind of the world like and then also we've kind of seen so many improvements in the infrastructure of kind of building on blockchains and um kind of how do you think that's kind of enabled anywhere from poly Market to other protocols or other products to uh to flourish yeah I mean I think when when we started augur it was definitely like 10 10 years to early um you know I think Shane's also better at at kind of the product like gu stuff what people want but I think also you know stuff like polymark has also been enabled by a lot of the advancements that have happened in the space over the last decade and so to kind of walk through some of those I mean when we started uh riding auger smart contracts there weren't even like testing Suites to like actually test smart contracts you just had to use print statements um like if if you ever you know kind of written like apple basic or Microsoft basic you know back in the day the way you debug was just by printing you know through various parts of your program and trying to kind of manually figure out what was going wrong so that was like one piece um the other piece was you know the scalability side of things so layer twos like weren't even an idea back then um people kind of thought that maybe layer one scaling was all you need and or SL also like there weren't even um that many use cases that like like required high high throughput and so when you had like spe Spees Spike on ethereum periodically you know it would cost like $200 to to place a bet uh so just like completely unreasonable um and so you have kind of the Avent of of Layer Two scaling things like arbitrum optimism uh po polygon which you know is is what uh poly markets built on which was sort of the first kind of initial scaling thing on ethereum that actually like sort of worked there were stuff before that actually that no one's you know heard of these days and so that's what you have on the on the scaling side and then you also have a couple other things that are I think really important the next one is a stable coin so stable coins didn't exist uh back in 2014 um and you know you now you have decentralized ones like d you have you know centralized ones like usdc and I think that makes it way easier for people to think about you know when you're placing a bet uh it's easier to have kind of a stable unit of account to do that and then I would say the third thing um which is still a little bit more uh in its infancy but rapidly improving is the tools you can use as a developer to make like things like onboarding user experience and also like the Fiat kind of on-ramp from going from dollars or or Yen or whatever to to crypto um you know back in those days like people were using like Mist which is like if you're not familiar it was a local browser wallet that free metamask yeah the ethereum used um or like to even run augur back then you had to download a a thing on your computer you had a syn of full ethereum node uh it took like you know six or seven hours just to even launch the application it's very it was very primordial stuff um and now I think like you know you go to poly Market even if you've never used crypto before you can get a wallet basically with an email um I'd say the Fiat to crypto part is is still kind of like I think that will improve over the next couple years and that'll probably be the next phase shift um on the ux side but yeah as I say the space has evolved a lot over the years and and it's really cool to see this stuff getting Mass traction amazing I think all that infrastructure stuff is kind of what's made it a lot easier for everybody to now experiment more and actually build applications instead of more infrastructure and Sh I want to get to you and um I want to kind of understand how you think about classifying what consumer apps are do you kind of think of them as a different category or do you think anything that touches people on a day-to-day thing kind of fall into the consumer space to do payment apps count consumer what's kind of your framework um I don't really try to categorize the apps I don't think it's a super useful exercise because for the most part we haven't seen what's possible yet like we're really in the very early stage of um developing these used and user facing applications um but if I had to categorize them I would say you know trading related that's one of the categories like poly Market would probably fall under that category prediction markets in general like fall under that category of trading related and then nfts would also nft marketplaces is also in that category um gaming I would say is probably another category um I think that uh I don't think we've seen that many games that uh a lot you know people love yet but I think the kind of games that will work is the kind of games that use that that involve some kind of real money trans er uh or exchange because that's what you know crypto is is really good for uh payment is probably I mean if you had to you could put payment as being part of uh you know user consumer facing applications as well although in like web to you would call it like fintech or something um but we see a lot of uh payment in um underserved markets especially in uh Emerging Markets as well as industries that are traditionally on banked um uh you know in fact sports betting is is one of those and uh uh and then there's the adult industry and cannabis and that kind of stuff uh so there's payment and then we're also so at lines we incubate a bunch of startups and we're seeing uh some very new novel consumer apps that we haven't seen before that that are uniquely enabled by crypto um for example examp yeah H I was going to say give us an example yeah yeah so for example where uh there's a dating app that's launching today and the idea is to leverage uh crypto as a form of uh micro payment so basically what you do is uh you know the guy so there's a man and a woman right the the the man uh will stake uh some a small amount of usdc usdt like a dollar or something uh in order to uh show like serious interest into the woman and vice versa um so this will show more intentionality from the part of the like in throughout the history of dating apps the online dance of what what one of the key problems is like the the guy always has an incentive to swipe right all the time right so there's no intentionality but when you have to stake a small amount of money it shows more interest more in intention to towards the women and this is something that was that's uniquely enabled by crypto because before crypto you had to use like let's credit cards you know this very very well like credit cards you cannot really do like a dollar payment right like credit card company has to charge like I don't know 25 cents or something so that that's like a 25% take rate on a $1 payment and also there's a lot of chargeback problems with credit cards so like if you pay some if you send some uh if you send some money to a sports Bing website with your credit card and you lose money you can call the credit card company and and just cancel the cancel the payment and get her money back so like these are are are real problems with credit cards that crypto stable coins can uniquely solve and we're talk we're thinking about like other potential types of uh consumer applications that can be enabled by Abes so can when you see a pitch like this do you do you kind of think about Hey would this be a market where you have millions or hundreds of millions or billions of users or do you kind of feel like hey these are super kind of unique specific cases that are uniquely Amplified with crypto and that's that's good enough we don't need to have a billion users 100,000 active users that are really passionate about this category can solute the job like yeah well so um the size of the market is probably the most important question for early stage Venture investing however I think most Venture investors overestimate their ability to assess the size of market so I recognize that I actually rarely think about the size of the market for that precise reason because I'll be wrong anyway so what I think about is uh you know is this a new type of behavior that that is uniquely enabled by crypto right but in the case in the specific case of dating apps we we know for a fact that it's a huge market like tender like it's making billions of dollars a year so um that's that no makes a lot of sense I want to come back to you Shane so you mentioned a lot of the the last few years have been kind of listening to user feedback and making it a super easy to use product um can you walk us through sort of some of the design decisions and product decisions you've made that Mak Market usable you know I think that the thing to stress is um at the core of being an entrepreneur he's going to build a consumer facing product is you really need to understand what you're building who you're building it for and why people are going to choose you know not necessarily thinking oh this is why I'm going to use this over that but but why people subconsciously are going to are going to use your product instead of other Alternatives and I think that um the reason that people are excited about poly Market is because it's the best thing in the market for what it does and it happens to be uniquely enabled by crypto whereas for something like a dating app but you have to stake tokens in order to Signal your interest it's like the the core part of a dating app is is the network effect in the critical mass of the people who are looking to go on dates um or other things uh and so I I think that at the end of the day when when you're going to be building a consumer product everything needs to be about who's going to be who you want to be using it what what you're building for them why why they're going to use it and then how you're going to reach them um so when I think about with poly market like when we first moved to a layer two at the time was called madic then it changed name to poly polygon polym Market is not named after polygon we recall polym Market first putting the record out there publicly uh and so we had to go and and look into magic link and and and uh account abstraction and meta transactions and um obviously bridging and like there were all these verticals and it's exciting now that um those things have been productized because we had to spend a lot of time on it now it's just like SDK and you can just like embed it into your well you can integrate into your product embedded wallets socalled um and you know I think that the more and more infrastructure there is the the the less of an excuse there is to build something that has no users or no traction but what I will say is that in the early days of ply market like there is there is something to be said about having friction for your consumer product and being like I need to build something so good that people love so much that people really desire to use that they're going to jump through hoops and you know they're going to figure out how to go and Bridge or they're going to figure out um how to make an account in order to to onboard uh and I think that that's that's a healthy exercise um so you know and and in terms of the the other infrastructure that that would need to be built I mean I think there's there's really two things that come on one is say that you know someone outside this conventure Center in Singapore like wants to go and and get on and you know they have all the southeast Asia apps they use the the the lower friction it is to get Fiat into stable coins obviously that's just going to be benefit everyone and the tricky part with it is like people who go and figure out how to gain any of the efficient like quick models like they go and make it difficult for everyone who's doing it organically um and then the second is uh you know it's still Fringe and the more clarity there is around how to do this the right way to fit into various different regulatory matricies the better it is in terms of going and reaching the the uh the larger swath of people who can use these things but at the same time I do think that you can you can get a lot of data on if you've built something that that people want and if there's core product Market fit even if it's a a smaller net amount but um due to increased friction but uh you can still see if there's something there or not and then the rest is about going expanding growing the pie so so maybe maybe I'll kind of uh jump in a little bit and and kind of poke here what has been like the most common complaint or uh things that people get confused about that you see I think that um we take for granted as people who are in this space like bridging different chains uh erc20 the word token uh it is a different language to normal people and we think that our community is like really large but it's it's very small in the scheme of things in terms of just building a Global consumer application and when it comes to people trying to go and because you know everyone has their own wallet it's not you you know po Market's non-custodial we we we're not holding anyone's anyone's stable coins um but we want to go and make it as simple as possible for people to go and have their own wallet and and to to to to send stable coins to it so the the more and more bridging that you have to go to and the the more and more uh uh Fiat on-ramps that don't work or uh you send it on the wrong chain those are things that there's no alternative to really going and putting yourself in the mind of a beginner or of someone who just doesn't have a clue how how this stuff is supposed to work and and just if there's a way where they can make a mistake that would poof their money because they send on the wrong chain like those are the things you need to have guard rails for and that you need to Shepherd the user in the correct direction so that's obviously like like in terms of time to value for trading like it's it's it's like a necessary evil and something that we got to continue to go and and and and streamline um maybe a question for all of you here a a super interesting part especially kind as you gave the dating example is that you kind of get to introduce different incentives um and we've kind of seen those be Drive really really interesting behaviors um do you kind of think that if you want to do something successful in crypto as a consumer app you kind of need gamification to built in um as part of this and that's the only kind of way to do this thing or you can uniquely look at utility of of some uh some application and and that drives the value kind of what are your thoughts on how do we actually drive anywhere from retention to new user growth and how much role does gamification play in this um I I can jump in um I I don't think gamification is necessary uh I think fundamentally retention is retention comes from you solving a real a core need for the consumer um give ification could be helpful so the other day I was using TAMU which is the um it's like a cheap Amazon Goods like cheaper version of Amazon like it's crazy how much gamification there is on TAMU a lot of spinners and uh exactly games yeah and I I found myself uh kind of addicted for like 20 minutes just spinning the wheels and uh that certainly uh improves retention for Tamu um but I think it's uh it's icing on the cake rather than being part of the the core Loop yeah I would just say you can't polish a turd and if you have a product that's leaky and that people don't want to use or that if people do use it because you have some incentive and then they leave right after no amount of gamification or or something like that is going to change that I think where you see gamification really be like the most meaningful drivers usually in very saturated markets where there's like commoditized products and you need to go and um basically fabricate or like artificially create loyalty and retention um because there's low switching cost between products so I think that gamification is awesome and and like you mentioned with teu and even when I use products like I I like it I like it as a user um Loyalty Rewards as a as a business exactly exactly uh but ultimately if you're not building on Solid Ground and solid foundation of something that people really want to use like you mentioned that solves a real problem then uh you're just polishing a turd um Joey a question for for you as you kind of think about a lot of these products that come to you um what kind of excites you when you see a really good pitch for a consumer product here and uh are there kind of some traits that you look for are there certain things that you feel like are kind of missing and if everybody kind of comes to you with those magic words and sentences of this is what I'm building you're like excited what's kind of your framework for funding applications yeah I think I think on the consumer side um you know one especially if the product's already live you can look at you know early traction signs um I think if you stick with poly Market as an example for a moment um you know a lot of people tend to have this view that you know things are like an overnight success but you know Shane was like emailing me I think back in like 2016 or 2017 about prediction markets and you know we sort we sort of you know talk to each other off and on a handful of times a year for you know I guess like six years or something at this point and you know when when I would talk with him um the main criteria I always have which leads to how we actually ended up investing was like um I forget the exact number but it's basically like you know essentially it was you know talk to me when you have like some repeatable you know product Market fit where you're you know getting in the news and and you have markets that like are the place that people go to bet on like current events that are like big current events happening in the world um and and you know most people think oh we we you know we invested because the election traction and I'd say you know two things one is like when we actually like you know shook hands or whatever the election traction like wasn't that big and then it's really become a rocket ship sense but the other thing was that there was this consistent repeatable traction on non-election markets and um and I think like you know you saw poly Market being both used a freal to bet on things like whether Sam Alman would be rehired at open AI uh whether you know spacex's Starship launches would meet certain success criteria the FED interest rates I mean like it's it's crazy yeah there's a million things you can use it for but then you also saw it being used by a second group of people which is people who are not betting on it but they're using it for the information that the markets have and they're citing it and telling other people about it and and they they sort of serve as like free marketing and then like some percentage of people will bet on it but you have these other people who are just evangelists because they use the information and um and so I think to tie this back together to your consumer question like you have a product that has this sort of like really nice flywheel um that's probably the most like positive thing you could see on the on the consumer side where it's like okay it really makes sense to to make an investment um and then like the the converse of that is like when you know either you don't have real flywheel or you have a flywheel but it's kind of a fake flywheel because you've injected like either like an insane amount of cash or Rewards or whatever to incentivize people um and and incentives aren't bad like you can do a little bit of incentives um but obviously if you're giving people like $5 um and and you make like you know $2 in revenue or whatever then then that's not really worth it but um so yeah I think it comes down to like the the flywheel on the on the product side is is that and then the founder I think you have a later question about that so I'll skip the founder that was actually was the next question like so you kind of answered what the business side looks like but what makes a good uh a Founder from kind of your both of your perspectives and what are some of the traits that you look for and uh when you think it's like the right founder product fit uh I guess depends on the type of products um but we generally look for people like Shane and and Joey uh like as investors we do a lot of pattern matching I can't tell exactly what we what we look for but like you can sense if that's the right founder for certain type of products right uh but I can tell you that uh the founders that are building novel products novel consumer products not payment not gaming but like uh you know like really new things that we haven't seen before we look for Founders that that that can that are able to think in non-conventional ways uh they like I would interview them for 20 minutes and I hope to hear something that makes me go aha I haven't heard of this before and this guy can't really think in a in a weird non-conventional way and obviously need to be able to execute that's really important because uh it's almost certain that your first product won't pan out and you're going to have to Pivot and we see this with almost every single one of our Founders like even like the dating app point or any other app like they come in with a with a initial idea of what they want to build and then they try it out for two weeks it doesn't work they need to either do a self- pivot same category or like hard pivot into something completely different like every single one of our best investments we've made in in the last couple of years on the consumer side are those who pivot at least two or three times like hard pivots and this is fundamentally different from infra because infra like you have a a end goal in mind and a lot of it is a a lot of it is a pure engineering problem and you just solve that like Sal like you it's measurable you can check for it exactly it's measurable it's more of a close form uh problem whereas consumer is is very open-ended you don't really know where you're going going to be honest so we expect the the startups to to to execute very fast to to test their hypothesis very quickly um maybe out of curiosity was there any pivot involved in in the history of poly Market definitely I I I mean it's funny cuz once I built poly Market not really and I think that there was a lot of constant pressure over time of like oh well now nfts are the hot thing now this is the hot thing and I've always been very interested in those as a user but um I think that if you think about the amount of consumer crypto startups that have maybe been funded in the amount that have users right like it's a large Delta um much larger than if you would think about consumer products that are funded that are just normal and I I do think that the the bar is just lower in our space when it comes to attraction and a lot of the time the accountability for an entrepreneur is just to investors or maybe if they do a token or something like that whereas if you're really betting on hey we're going to go and build a product ultimately you need to build something that people love that people use that should speak for itself um so I I do think that there's a there is something about having deep conviction and having early product Market fit early signs that maybe other people may be dismissive of but that you can see and and and and following that intuition and building it the right way because when we had early usage it was like okay this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong but people really do enjoy trading on something that they have an opinion on that they understand participating in the closest also do find it interesting to look at the prices of these things so like how can we go and bring this to a a broader audience um and uh so I think that when it you know I'm I'm I'm no VC so these are the guy these are the professionals with that but I do think that it is critically important to be able to iterate with product development quickly to be able to make changes to be able to use the product yourself develop an intuitive feel about what feels right what doesn't feel right where do you subconsciously float where do your eyes go um what are you confused about what if you put it in front of your friend what is your friend confused about and uh getting into the nitty-gritty and then being really obsessive over how your your early customers and how the people who who do show up to use the product early on how they feel about it what do they like what do they not like what you lean what you lean into what you remove uh and if you if you don't if you are unable to go and get that feedback loop right of like feedback iterate feedback iterate um you at you are so disadvantaged to build a consumer product that can eventually scale so I think that's the most important thing no matter how you slice it um and the crypto magic is is uh is is obviously necessary and enables a lot of cool things that you can do with products particularly around markets that beforehand you wouldn't be able to do um or if you were able ble to do it would be very siloed and difficult uh but it's it's no replacement or it's no alibi for not not getting product right at its score okay I actually have a comment on on what you just said about uh fast iterations this ties back to you said earlier about the how the infrastructure changed in the last few years is that today it's actually a lot easier to iterate fast than than it was like 5 years ago because of the infra because of the that developer experience is much much better so I I really think we're in a you can launch an L2 chain in three minutes yeah crazy was wild um well so actually so so maybe I'm kind of curious to hear either any of your thoughts here do we have to make it known that this some consumer app or something that people want is powered by crypto like is that is it necessary just we can we don't advertise what database I'm using for my not taking app um do we have to sort of make it up front that this has to be a consumer crypto app why can't it just be an app that has elements and some benefits from stuff that we get from from blockchains or stable coins or kind of some few things do you kind of draw the distinction anywhere no I I think it depends on the again depends on the product um if uh you're building a a payment product that uh uses crypto under the hood you don't need to advertise about crypto at all you don't need to advertise the the stable coin part at all I think it's entirely entirely possible to abstract away the the stable coin part out of the you know crossb payment product for example but for a product that uh you know uh that requires the deposit of crypto into the website like a you know market for example then I don't know if you guys actually advertise crypto at all but but you do also support credit cards well that's the an integration um because that's like a third party API you like embed moonay and um they have all that stuff sorted I I think it's new nuanced if you have more to say by the way I don't want again just depends on the product yeah I think it's nuanced I think that if people are very crypto native you want to be able to meet them where they're at but as as the core and default flows of a product if you impose the barrier that people need to understand bridging or they need to understand different chains you're churning a ton of people immediately uh and you're confusing them and it's a terrible user experience and um I see I think we see this a lot with bridging bridging is is a non-trivial concept for people who are used to using PayPal to understand uh and the the base the Baseline is like sure some people are going to be able to go to different bridging sites they're going to have different wallets they're going to have crypto assets on different chains and those people will figure it out no matter what but the people who aren't as privy to that uh and aren't as accustomed to to being you know a multi-chain sleuth uh how can you meet them where they're at so that they can still use the product because you know the more you expand the time to Value the harder it is for people to get that first magic feeling of using the product the more and more difficult it becomes to go and get a viral Loop um and to go and have something that can grow organically uh so these things become of Paramount importance but to tie it back like some of the some of the most iconic products that we that we use today their first version where they got a lot of traction were really shitty and really ugly and even Craigslist today a lot of us still use it and it's it's just disgustingly ugly but there critical mass and there's strong density in the marketplace and and that supersedes looking nice so there's a lot of variables but the cool thing about building products for people is that the market doesn't lie and uh they'll tell you you know I think with infra one of the reasons a lot of people in our space go to it is because you can really uh you know Mas uh like does this thing actually solve a problem are people really going to use this so it just becomes easier to to play that cycle of you know raise money and whatnot but and it's just a lot more hard it's much more difficult to go build something that people are going to want to use uh so but I find it more fun and I I do think that you make more impact building it that way and um there's a lot of infrastructure there so it's time for us to go build some [ __ ] products um I guess one one other thing um we'd love to kind of get your advice on Shane is like how do you actually Market um your product and how do you kind of think people should be marketing it because you're trying to attract people who are comfortable with both worlds and you want obviously both of them involved to grow um what's kind of like a good way you found that works with people where they're like not scared of crypto but still want to play and uh how should think other Founders think about this yeah I mean the more technically complex the more crypto and onchain there is involved in the core product obviously the conversion rate is going to suffer but but that is what it is and and over time you know I think that Trend will move in in our Direction uh I think that um first and foremost you need to build something that a core group of people who have some shared demographic or or customer Persona actually enjoy using and if you're focused on marketing before then um you're not actually marketing a product you're just passing time or figuring out reasons to to procrastinate on building something useful uh and I think what it comes down to is once you've built a product you understand where your product sits in the marketplace compared to competitors or compared to Alternatives or um or there's some sort of lat and demand that is not yet met and how you meet that then you understand who those people are who you're trying to to to Target then you want to figure out the distribution channels to reach them it's just simple you know marketing 101 I'd say and um for us is we've got in traction different verticals uh that's the we just go back to First principles um and I think that when it comes to the the crypto element and I think we could we could do a lot better job in this you want to educate the users you want to handhold them you want to make it as easy for them as possible uh so and on the flip side if you're just building for the crypto Echo chamber which is's nothing wrong with I love that I I uh luckily that group is getting bigger too yeah and then that's growing and getting bigger and then you can kind of pass the buck on like oh people figuring out onchain and how to get onboarded and different and um all the all the def5 Primitives um but then you do a you know you have a smaller T but nothing wrong with that there's still a lot of awesome things that have been built there but you know you're you're always you're always uh weighing all the different variables but at the end of the day when you go back to First principles and go back to basics that's when you I think you'll find the best results awesome Joey um Shia any advice to Founders as they kind of get started with building a company in this space and uh things that you think they should focus or not focus on yeah on on my end I I'm actually going to take that question and sort of pivot into answering the founder question which may have some elements of advice in it but because I think for us at Founders fund like the essential question is how do you evaluate Founders and how do you select the best Founders to back and I think there's really like three or four things so one of them is that the best Founders move really quickly uh they iterate fast um they're just kind of like constantly on this the second second thing I think is that um you know we kind of have this phrase that that we use which is like you know we look for Founders who can like bend the universe to their will uh so people great Founders like are Relentless uh they don't give up and then also the other thing I think is people think of like some firms think of you know selecting Founders as like there's a selection of boxes and you want to check as many as possible the the best people at anything are are very pointed like they have some areas where they Spike and they're really really good like the best in the world at something and there's some areas where they're terrible um the the best people in any field there's no one who is like insanely successful who is quote unquote well-rounded uh we don't want well-rounded people we want you know people who have like character and then I'd say the the third thing is there's this notion um of uh which which I'm borrowing this from uh Peter teal who founded our firm I was going through one of his old annual meeting presentations and there's this slide of Michael Jordan uh and it's a picture of Michael Jordan playing baseball uh a lot of people don't know Michael Jordan actually started off as a baseball player and the slides basically about this notion of like founder market fit and so he's actually a pretty mediocre baseball player um but obviously amazing at at basketball and so you you need the right founder paired with the right market and the right company and and if you have that that's you know you you combine kind of all those four ingredients um and that's where you know something kind of really magical can happen amazing I think that's uh it's a good place to uh to end this panel and I want to thank all three of you for an amazing discussion thanks for having us