From Cloud to Cables: Building the Physical Layer of Web3 - TOKEN2049 Dubai 2025

Thanks for coming and showing up early in the morning. This hopefully is an interactive panel. Uh we're here to talk about deepen. Um I think it's one of the most exciting if not the most exciting category in crypto because the problem that we have as an industry is that beyond speculation, none of this is really relatable for businesses or for real people in the real world and deepen really achieves that. So we have one of the best deepen projects upstage.

Uh I've had the privilege of knowing most of them as they built their project. So why don't we go around and you guys describe what your individual project is doing, what kind of problem you're solving in the real world. Why don't we start with you? Yeah. Um I'm Abai Kumar.

Uh I run the protocol at Helium. I've been part of the project since uh 2020 when I started uh by deploying my first hotspot. Um so Helium is the world's largest decentralized wireless network. Um we have been building two kinds of networks over the past several years. An IoT network that supports uh things like package tracking applications and water leak detections and and other kinds of um sort of small uh messages that are being sent uh over over the air.

Um and then more recently we've been supporting a wireless network for phones. Um and so my favorite thing to do these days is I sell free phone plans for people in the United States. Okay. Great. Uh my name is David Churn.

I'm a co-founder and also head of a blockchain in Jonet. So Jonet is world largest RTK network. So I guess a lot of you may not know what RTK means. So in a single word RTK means uh we provide 100 times more precise positioning services than regular GPS. So imagine GPS can deliver accuracy between 1 meter to 5 meters.

But with drill RTK network you can receive the accuracy of about centimeter. So this like this big. So that will certainly enable a lot of applications uh like autonomous driving drone operating and particularly we have a really uh high uh flagship uh business uh partner uh United States Department of Agriculture. They will utilize our precise uh position service for farmers and reduce their cost. Awesome.

Uh I'm Austin Federa. I'm one of the three co-founders of the zero protocol. We are a little bit different than most crypto projects. We're a physical fiber infrastructure network for high performance distributed systems. So we're talking about literally physical fiber cables in the ground uh and really building a parallel pathway for high performance distributed systems to the public internet right a lot of the controversy I guess in deepen is like people don't really appreciate how hard deploying infrastructure is and the natural skepticism is like well why do we need crypto like what exactly does crypto uniquely enable uh and how does that actually translate to the end user like are lowering costs is the capex requirements lower are you sharing that across the network like why don't we start with helium because you know for context you guys have been working in the US you've deployed what 98,000 hotspots now you have IoT devices all over the world um and most recently two of the three largest carriers in the US started using the Helium network so walk us through like that conversation with AT&T which you announced recently like what did they see in the Helium network that was so valuable for them?

Yeah, I mean there's um some interesting stakeholders that we work with um and AT&T is one of our customers or one of the network's customers now. Um so we have folks deploying hotspots in uh small businesses uh near parks in malls uh all over the US and these are places where some of these carriers uh have trouble uh providing better connectivity for their own users. Um and this really really comes down to a fundamentally a physics problem. Um so uh to deploy 5G which is um sort of a higher bandwidth but uh and lower latency network um you need to have a lot more density and one of the problems that uh carriers have is is making sure that that uh all these devices that need to be deployed at at such high densities have you know someone actually managing them. So you know what Helium does is that it sort of hands off that responsibility to the end user, the end deployer.

Um so this could be a coffee shop owner, a mall operator, uh a service provider at a hotel that's actually installing, you know, uh hundreds of wireless APs around around the property. Um these are the kinds of folks who are very directly uh they want to serve the customers that are coming in and out the door. Um and then AT&T has no no real way to sort of reach all these at at scale. So um they work with us uh to be able to access this large network and then they're able to they get two things out of this. One um they get significantly lower costs.

There's no capex right to ask somebody else to deploy. Um and then they get better service for their customers. That's actually what they truly care about. Their subscribers have demands of their you know of of these networks. Um and they're able to fulfill that.

So that's that's what someone like AT&T or others um see in a network like Helium. This is called the offload business. to folks who are familiar in in telco. Um uh and then you know this is one way that they're able to do network planning. Um and the helium network gives us are able to sort of support these kinds of partners in other ways as well.

uh you know AT&T and other telos need to understand where these radios are like what is the back haul what is the quality that these subscribers uh are you know they should be expecting um when they're you know attaching to these radios and that's something that is sort of a derivative data set that we can build with this sort of massively deployed network that allows you know these carriers to select well you know when this subscriber is in this region you should connect to these hotspots preferentially rather than using the the the the larger macro uh AT&T network. Um so these are sort of two different ways the the Helium network supports them. So concretely, if you have any business, if you have an apartment or home or your business, you say, "I'm going to connect a hotspot and it's really cheap. It's $200 to $300. It's like commodity hardware.

You're going to participate in this network cuz you have wireless that you're not using. So you're provisioning some of that excess capacity to what is called a helium network. And then if you're a mobile user walking through that area where you have coverage, AT&T might own that relationship, but it's cheaper for them to offload that data to that user. And and you know, just to put a real number on it, uh couple weekends ago, 900,000 phones connected to the Helium network and they had no idea they were using a crypto powered network. Yeah.

And and the nice thing is these users don't know what's happening in the back. It's sort of invisible, right? Correct. Uh the phone doesn't need to be configured in a specific way. their SIM that's already on the phone is able to authenticate to any of these Helium hotspots and just automatically attach.

And just to round out this point, it's like the reason why it's cheaper is because wireless like Wi-Fi is just cheaper than it is buying that gigabyte capacity from a cellular tower. That's that's right. Okay, great. Because you know, telco is like one of those areas where not a lot of people understand but everyone uses, right? Right.

Of course. Uh Mike, let's talk about Geonet. Like you talk about like GPS being very not precise and what you guys are doing. When I first met um you guys, it was one of those rare projects where you were getting more interest and traction outside of crypto from real users, farmers, people, drone operators, now the department of agriculture. Tell us walk us through kind of like what concretely did they see in Geonet that they were not able to get from sort of the competitors in the real you know Trimble and um Hexagon.

Yeah. So, uh we are in a very uh good spot. Uh so J I try to solve the problem that provide uh you know a widely available precision network. Uh traditionally in this space uh they already uh multiple um players. Trimbo is the largest one in the United States and Hexon is the largest one in the Europe.

They are public companies. You know they market value about multiple billing. Uh so what they do is they slowly uh you know deploy uh base stations and uh based on you know their capbacks and their resource and try to cover the region slowly. Uh for the last uh decades uh or 20 years they reach a network coverage about 5 5,000 base stations. And for us we do it differently.

We utilize the blockchain uh mechanics. We're using token to incentivize and we've been growing to 16,000 base stations within three years. So that's like three times bigger than any web two competitors. You know you might you know consider they are you know public company they have a market uh cap about you know two billion USD. So we are a you know start from zero using blockchain and uh create a you know network three times as big as they do.

And on the other side uh even we are young we are three years um blockchain project we are already produce almost 4 million u uh revenue annually that's pure data sales not from hardware and we are continue to grow to 10 million very soon. So some of our customers are from traditional well actually uh right now most of the paid customers from traditional web two uh businesses uh one example is the USDA. So basically we will uh you know a lot of the farmers in the central valley, United States, Europe they are already operating on many tractors you know that the tractors you know moving around the farm field 24 hours 7 days but they do require precise positioning service so regular GPS won't help because if you know if your tractor driving accuracy is bigger than 10 cm it will ruin your crops and reduce the year of your farm field. So you really need RT service and they typically pay like about 1,000 to,500 USD a year subscription per device paid to the Trimbo or other uh providers. And for us because we can build the network in a such a low way with blockchain enabled we will charge maybe onetenth of the cost or even one sometimes like onetenth of the cost.

So USDA really like the idea because we help the farmers to reduce their cost. So they want to partner with us. They buy data from us and then you know give away uh free for the farmers to use. So uh really you know uh the drone is a you know very good showcase in dipping space that we can do something really good using blockchain technology and also bring real v revenue into the system. So concretely you uh relative you you can uh do produce a network that can deliver really precise location data for farmers or even gaming companies that want to have like Pokémon Go style like size because GPS is not precise.

uh if you're going to buy this data set, you can provide it cheaper relative to the competitor in the web web two world because when you say you're leveraging blockchain is that you're convincing people that have already the location to deploy the station. Um and you don't have to get a lease, you don't have to you know that that's a really expensive part in the real in the normal world um that you guys are kind of leaprogging. So yeah, just uh some quick uh uh quick notion. So we are utilize existing rooftop real estate. So if you own a home, you have a roof, a clear roof and you have internet connection, you can provide power.

You can be one of our uh miners. So you set up base station and setting up there and provide precise location to real usage and you earn passive income. Uh Austin, uh I want to turn to you because I think you have one of the most ambitious, fascinating projects to come out of crypto in the last couple years. You were previously at Salana. Uh one of your colleagues, Ben, who I think you spent a lot of time with when you were starting to think about layer zero, I think it was last year, I heard first heard about it.

He said, um Austin is like the network guy. He would go into every Salana office and he loves wiring. That's like he lives and breathes this stuff. What What did you see? I mean like please like walk us through kind of the opportunity that you saw.

Why why did anyone like before you didn't think about this or see it? Yeah, I mean this is this is your original question was why does this thing need crypto, right? And the answer is because we've seen people build it otherwise and it just doesn't work. Um the internet that we have today is what zero would look like without blockchain applied to it. And the internet today is great for a lot of things, but it's built for uh really incredible reach.

You can reach any server anywhere in the world from pretty much anywhere else in the world. But the thing that you can't do on the internet is high performance, right? This is why every single traditional financial firm uses dedicated private fiber or shortwave or microwave towers for trade execution. It's why Google and Amazon and Facebook are investing billions and billions of dollars to run fiber around the world. And you kind of like almost every large software company eventually gets to a place where it has to look at hardware and it has to look at connectivity.

I mean Facebook famously wired up the Philippines not out of the goodness of their heart but so they could sell ads to more people. Like the internet infrastructure in developing countries was the limiting factor for them in expanding their TAM. And we're at that place with blockchain now. And so yeah, you could come in and say like oh well we already have Jump Trading and Citadel and many of these companies. I'm sure most of you have read uh flash boys that run private fiber all around the world and they do this.

But you have to think about this in the traditional financial space. It's a very tractable problem with known endpoints. I got to get from the Chicago mercantile exchange to the New York Stock Exchange. Those two things don't move. Uh that is not the case in crypto, right?

You look at a network like Salana, there's 2,000 nodes around the world. They're moving around all the time as they try and optimize 10 basis points of additional MEV or block rewards. You look at these next generation blockchains that are coming up and they might not have 2,000 validators, but they've got 200 validators and those also move all around the world. Plus, you add the problem of RPC servers on top of it. And what you end up with is a network that's too big for any one firm to build itself.

At the same time, if you resort to the public internet and the economics of how things work on the public internet today, you don't get high performance systems. You get high reach systems, but low performance systems. And so what we're doing with D0ero is allowing anyone who runs a private fiber network to contribute a graph of that network, be it individual links or a whole collection of links and to devices operating on it like validators or other high performance systems. It really appears as if it's one homogeneous network the same way you would expect if you were, you know, a Google engineer working on Google's private network. The difference though is under the hood it's run by multiple independent contributors.

And if we didn't have that, if we just went out and raised, you know, a billion dollars and built a fiber network ourselves in right, no one should trust us, right? Because we would have all the admin keys. We'd be able to have censor the network. But by having multiple independent contributors and multiple independent fiber providers involved, you actually provide resiliency that approaches that of the public internet. Um, and you really can't do this without tokens.

Like tokens are an alignment superpower. It allows people to say, "Okay, I have a 400 Gbit link here. I'm going to carve out a 100 gigabits and contribute that to the zero project and earn some tokens in exchange for that. Um, and we're able to do this in a way that really hasn't been possible before because all this networking technology, you know, we're using like basically off-the-shelf networking technology. The difference is we've built in all these components that allow it to be decentralized to reach consensus around proposed routes and all these things that you need if it's going to actually be trusted by by blockchain.

I want to double click on like for folks in the audience like what does that actually mean for if you're like a blockchain project because you're just a bit more detached from the end user. I feel like your customer is like uh any layer 1 layer two kind of infrastructure provider in crypto like a a chain would use double zero to guess faster like you know execute. Yeah. Exactly. So end users, right?

It's sort of like who are the customers for RPCs or you know like like Infura doesn't sell to end users. They sell to wallets and applications and those sorts of things. So for for us, we're not even providing a compute layer. It's bring your own server, bring your own bare metal provider. It's just the data connectivity layer between these systems.

And so uh there can be situations where you know an L2 that has a single sequencer team decides hey we want to operate this single sequencer on0 because even though it's all one server and you'd think that network connectivity would not be the limiting factor on a single server it actually is because you've got to propagate data out to the entire RPC layer. It doesn't matter if you're moving uh you know blocks at 10 milliseconds if you can't communicate that out. If your Liteco propagation delay, for lack of a better term, is slow, the network is basically not moving that quickly. Like, no one looks at the New York Stock Exchange and goes, "Well, what's the execution trade time on the centralized exchange?" I mean, it's it's so fast, no one cares.

The question everyone fights about is how quickly can we get new fresh data into our trading systems to be able to make use of market arbitrage or market movement data. And we see this in crypto, right? If you look at like Salana built a validator client that can do a million transactions per second. Apttodos has benchmarked their validator client to I think somewhere around 700,000 transactions per second. Sooie's in a similar place.

You see similar numbers coming out of monad and me. And then you get to prod and we're like a hundth of that at best. And some of that is mainet load is different and mainet programs different requirements. But a bunch of this is the public internet. like we've got a bunch of Ferraris stuck in traffic as you all see every day when you leave this building.

Um there's a lot of nice cars stuck in traffic here and and that's the limiting factor nowadays. And so if we can build better connectivity between these systems, we can actually move blockchain forward by a decade or more, not by changing the underlying code, not by doing massive changes to how protocols are written, but just giving them more dependable, higher quality connections to run on. And that's the entire point of increased bandwidth, reduce latency. Yeah, I was I was going to turn it out. Obviously, you come from Salana.

Their whole MMO is, hey, we want to be NASDAQ on the blockchain. We want to, you know, uh increase uh bandwidth, reduce latency. What would like if in a scenario where you fast forward one or two years from now, you guys are at, you know, delivered on your timeline and on your vision? What does this mean for a network like Salana? I mean, Salana for a long time was software limited, right?

It was the validator client that was holding it back and now it's the hardware connectivity that's holding it back. There's two incredible independent software clients on Salana. The agave uh client by Anza and the Fire Dancer client by Jump Crypto. And I think you see this across the board now is that for years the software was too slow. If you ran GE locally, it would max out 400 TPS.

Like you just couldn't get that system faster. That's not the limiting factor anymore. So if we are successful in our endeavor in two years, uh it's the software guy's fault again. Yeah, I don't think you can do like multiple concurrent proposers without something like double zero, right? Like I think it's actually impossible.

Yeah, I mean like Salana's future roadmap I think is actually limited on the network layer. Yeah, I mean this is the whole thing with um you know we can I know this isn't a super technical panel but like multiccast is a technology that you cannot run on the public internet and multiccast is a technology where so right now if you use salana or monad they basically have eraser coding of Merkel trees for state propagation and that is uh turbine and raptorcast and so what's happening is one validator is sending out a bunch of data to 200 nodes and they're sending out to 200 more and they're sending it out to 200 more it takes a ton of bandwidth uh but it's The best you can do in a uniccast world where validators operate over the internet. The way this works in a high frequency trading firm or the way this works in a proper data network is you use multiccast. And multiccast is basically hardware acceleration of packet replication. So one packet goes out from the server.

The network switch makes you know 40 copies of it and sends it on to all the places it's supposed to go. And because multiccast replicates data the furthest from the core possible always at the edge. If you have to take, you know, uh, like block propagation data from a validator, you know, here in the UAE and move it back to New York and there's a thousand validators in New York. Right now, there's a thousand copies of that data running across the Atlantic. With multiccast, there's only two copies of that data moving across the Atlantic.

So, it's much more efficient and it allows these systems to move much more quickly. We got roughly 13 minutes left. We've painted the great grand vision for Deepen in in respective kind of industries and the impact. There's still a lot of criticism out there within crypto certainly maybe outside of crypto maybe less outside of crypto actually because you go to a customer and say listen we're going to provide we're going to lower your infrastructure bill or we're going to provide a faster service. Uh which is really exciting I find.

Um let's double click on like the criticisms of deepen like in terms of can this actually scale? You hear that a lot. you hear, "Well, the tokconomics are broken. Uh, it's never going to work." Like, "This is too good to be true.

It only works in a small scale." Um so like let's maybe in your respective um um projects tell us like what what is the bare case or what is the like the common criticism that you hear maybe within crypto or more interestingly uh as you face the real world and customers like AT&T I appreciate might have taken many many years where they were looking at that your reliability for offloading and some of the metrics like you're pioneering some really cool stuff y but but let's like flip it around so what what are the common criticisms what are the challenges it's still need to be resolved as we go and really scale these networks. I mean, I think a lot of people that know me personally know that I'm a perma bear. So, I'm always a bear. Uh, but I guess, you know, like the way that I look at it is that crypto UX is continues to be impossible.

Um, and we just see it like, you know, was a couple of days ago someone lost a crap ton of Bitcoin um out of a wallet that they hadn't touched in years. And like that is terrifying. Like truly, truly terrifying stuff. and and the fact that like 12 words that you take a picture of and you shove it on iCloud is at risk or you put it in a password manager is at risk like that is all terrifying stuff and those are I think the the really like the near-term issues which is actually why Helium mobile our you know consumer subscriber business has no crypto on the front end you don't see it at all um the business is like we are a crypto enabled product right the business works mvnos's traditionally are not very are very thin margin businesses they're not like they haven't there hasn't been a lot of disruption in them like unless you have you know someone ridiculously attractive as your spokesperson like Mint does. Um I'm not that person.

So instead we just have very very you know cheap wholesale rates for data and that enables us to offer a free phone plan or offer a $15 phone plan or a $30 phone plan depending on the kind of plan that you want. And that's ultimately I think you know yes the bare case of crypto is that it will remain too complicated for the average user to use. And so it's kind of incumbent on product teams um and certainly the take that we have that just hide it and allow your business to be enabled by it but then be able to offer that you know 10x cheaper or 10x faster product um to the the consumers that you know that care about it. So it's mostly on the on the front-facing side for Yep. And we think we've sort of taken the kind of strategic product decision that we want to hide it as much as possible.

And obviously if someone wants to get in there and try to understand why are you able to offer a free phone plan? Oh, it's because when you are a subscriber, you're sharing your location data to the network in an anonymous way that is privacy preserving and that helps build the network. It tells us where there is demand and we have a tool for AT&T to then go say oh there or to a deployer to say that this is where there needs to be a hotspot deployed right we have this observed demand tool we have these quality of service metrics tools and these are the things in the back end that are that you know it's a it's a virtuous cycle a person who signs up for a free phone plan isn't just freeloading they are actually providing value to the network great what about Gina yeah I want to give some feedback on you know the to critics about dipping project. So I think dipping is uh slightly different than the other crypto project. Uh so the physical infrastructure typically need time to build up.

Let's compare to the web two approach right if you're talking about some infrastructure it literally take maybe decades uh to you know for the infrastructure to reach some degree of level. So dipping using a a different way it will dramatically increase the the the deploy speed uh at a much lower cost but still uh you need a time to build up the infrastructure. And the second um if you wanna uh get uh actual revenue that make real business want to pay for the for your infrastructure your infrastructure either decentralized or centralized you need to reach certain level of uh availability performance uh that take time to build. So uh as a journ as example we've been in this space for three years. So it it take us like the first year just you know purely build up the infrastructure without any uh income.

But again once you reach a certain level like right right we are right now we can provide the same commercial grade as the traditional web two provider but that's not not easy. So to reach this stage uh a lot of work uh to you know allocate between web two and web three uh but you know it works. So, so for now as I said earlier we are almost having you know three and a half up to four million revenue annually and it will continue growth. So the dipping is something working you know you bring the real value into the system and it actually make you know uh real use case but but like let's just like on on the bare case like if you're a Tesla you need really precise data to for self-driving. If you're a farmer and you have an autonomous tractor to for farming and great efficiencies, you need really centimeter grade precision that you guys can provide, but there's alternative solutions.

Now, you're saying the data set for you guys are able to undercut them so it's cheaper. But why why might Tesla or uh you know a farmer or Niantic who developed Pokémon Go like why would these guys look at you and say, "You know what? We're not going to use you. were willing to pay the trim and hexagon more because for for some different reason like like why yes so I think price certainly a very big impact because we uh cost maybe one of cost you you know even consumer product we can even reduce even more and the second is coverage so we have a 16,000 nodes all over the world and it cover a lot areas that traditional you know trimbo hexon they never have coverage uh For example, in India, we are the only commercially available network there. We have about more than 500 base stations right now.

The next one is their government run really old style which cannot meet the modern use cases and we have coverage in Southeast Asia and we start to build up uh coverage in uh uh Latin America, South America like Brazil. Uh it grow very fast and we are we even have more coverage in Africa. uh so South Africa so we are thinking you know as the robots become a really you know emerging technology and imagine all the outdoor robots they need a precise location and they need us the traditional web 2 customer they are very focused on certain areas like you know provide service for egg for survey but for us we are open you know it's a open platform it's a much bigger coverage much lower cost can power a lot of more applications s not just web two but also web three like you know Pokémon Go u you know we provide you know a precise service for uh gaming and uh virtual reality a lot of things you can imagine yeah Austin uh you're earlier in the journey um what are you mostly focused on in terms of like the key risks u for really scaling out and executing like the next you know one to two years the biggest risk for double zero is the ambition of this space is still pretty small. Um, people are happy about 10,000 transactions per second. They're celebrating L2s that are hitting a,000 TPS.

Like, if that's the end, then like I don't know if you need double zero that much, right? At the end of the day, like we're building for a world where you have multiple chains running hundreds of thousands and millions of transactions per second. And that's kind of the world that we need and want to see built up if we're going to find that hardcore product market fit just in crypto. I mean, we can support all sorts of I mean, you know, as I said, high performance distributed systems. There's lots of things that are not crypto that also fit into the needs of what zero is building towards.

Um, but the main one for for crypto in this in this space is just our aspirations and ambitions are still pretty small, right? It's like the best thing that can happen in this industry is Bitcoin hits 120. And it's like that's great. Price is nice. We all like price.

But at the end of the day, like when you 10x or 100x or thousandx capacity, you get to see different types of applications built that aren't possible before. And like the traditional tech industry knows this very well, right? You you launch the iPhone, it's kind of a flop. You launch the 3G iPhone, suddenly people see like, oh, we can actually do different types of things in this mobile experience. and it changed taxis forever and it changes his dating forever.

Like things that I don't think Steve Jobs ever had in his mind when he launched the iPhone. But like the idea behind that is it wasn't that we had a smartphone suddenly. We'd had, you know, Blackberries and Palm Pilots for years. It was that we had fast mobile connectivity that actually made it possible to build entirely different types of experiences on it. And so people will ask me all the time like what do we need four chains that can do a million transactions per second for?

And I have no clue. But like if you ask someone in 1994, what do we need a gigabit internet connections at home for? I don't think they would have had a lot of good answers either. And so really about creating more new green field space for people to build interesting things in like on that point like the arc of technologies usually like the smartphone for instance it came out it was like ter like it was a great form factor uh but connectivity was like very expensive and very slow. Yeah.

But it was such a killer product that it justified capex investment to deploying a network and then you had more apps and then it just kind of like that flywheel progressively like you stressed SDMRA you justify more capex because there's underlying like products or was it Uber or Netflix and like mobile just was became such a powerful thing. Um when you talk about the problem as an industry we have sort of a lot of times we hear there's too many L1's there's too many L2s there's too much infra not enough u you know real connectivity in in products um what's your vision like like why is that and is it like that because like if you're a developer in the real world you say god these blockchains are like terrible I'm not going to go in and to crypto to build something that I think requires way more TPS PS, so why bother? Um, and and like why build it now? You know what I mean? Like why hasn't anyone like why does it take someone like you at this moment?

We've been here for 12 years and no one has said gosh, I want to build, you know, double zero. So, a few things. One is it's expensive. Um, like physical fiber infrastructure is expensive and you need networks that have actually fee generating applications on them to make it worthwhile, right? The other thing is blockchains and centralized exchanges were slow for a very long time.

Uh Matteo, my co-founder, actually sort of tried to build this back in 2017. He never like launched a company for it, but he was like a hardcore networking guy who'd been working with a lot of companies and trifi space on uh like wireless links between exchanges so you could have arbitrage opportunities. And he was like, "Crypto needs this. It's insane that everyone's just running this stuff on residential internet connections." It's like, yeah, but Ethereum does 14 things per second.

There's 30 second block times and 98% of that time is just for networking. Like, people weren't building systems yet. And crypto is great at so many things, but like we reinvent the wheel again and again on basic things that other industries have figured out. And one of those is like speed matters. And if you want to compete with centralized systems, it's not good enough to just be like, oh, but we're more decentralized, right?

You have to actually be as performant or more performant. Um, and so that's one of the main reasons. The other thing too is the global fiber network is bigger than it was a few years ago. There's there's some other macroeconomic changes that have sort of happened that have increased access in those areas. But really what it is is like we got a bunch of developers in building high performance validator clients and they need a network like this now and they just didn't need a network like this in 2017.

There's still no use for Bitcoin on on zero. It's not what Bitcoin is trying to do. Right. Maybe as the last question in a world where this truly works like what what does that actually mean for all the L1's that you know every L1 is manufacturing the highest TPS and the best metrics but you come along like what does this mean like do you just commoditize the entire L1 L2 layers like it it so I think the place we get to pretty quickly is very similar to like the cloud providers right where we have four to six depending how you count pretty high quality cloud providers that all offer fairly similar generic services but there's different modules and different components that they add that like makes a company pick one over the other. At the same time, we have people who run across multiple different cloud providers in the web two space now.

And so I think we'll get into a situation where the differentiation between individual L1s may be less and it's more about the ecosystem and the applications built on top of them. That complete feature set where you're picking do I want to stick in the Ethereum world, do I want to be in the Salana world, do I want to be in someone else's world? A lot of that will be determined by not what can the L1 do but who else has chosen to build in that business environment. Great J. Thanks so much for the time.

It's really good discussion. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Thanks.