The Rise of Digital Asset Treasuries - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2025

Hey everybody.

Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hey everyone.

What a dense room. This is unbelievable.

Great.

I've got to say when we made the first data investments earlier this year, I did not expect there to be multiple data panels and and tens of billions of dollars raised for this. So, this is very very exciting. Uh I'm so excited to be sitting with all three of these gentlemen here. Uh we at Panta, we've been investing in debt since since day one. and we're actually investors in all three of these.

Uh have seen all three of these really come to life and all three get people that I I really respect. Um maybe just to start off the conversation like very clearly I'd say the price action on ETH this year has been driven by all the excitement and the inflows that have been driven by the DATs to you guys. Why do you guys think now is the time for Ethereum to shine?

Um so let me start I guess. Um so we've been building for about 10 years. So we've been building layer after layer of enabling infrastructure. Um and more recently we've achieved scalability horizontal and vertical scalability. Uh we've achieved affordability in terms of uh cheap block space, cheap transactions.

Uh usability has gotten good. It's going to get great uh as we bring more AI into the user interfaces. Um, and it's become legal, more legal in many parts of the world, including the United States to to build in the ecosystem, to use tokens, to issue tokens, to use DeFi, that's going to come um very strongly soon. Um and in building um scalability into the the Ethereum ecosystem, uh the path that we chose was to seed pricing power from layer 1 uh and enable all these layer 2 networks to um to provide computation and just enable eventually um millions of transactions per second potentially. Uh there's a shot that we'll get that big um to reduce latency.

Um, and the result of that was that we've had a glut of block space. Um, and not enough applications. Um, so making it legal to build applications is going to bring the applications and build the users. Um, in the meantime, we had a bit too much ether out there for all this cheap block space. Uh, so a while ago, uh, we at Consensus decided, hey, uh, Michael Sailor's doing some profound things uh, with his debt.

Um but we can do it better because uh Ethereum is a productive asset. Uh you can get significant yield um staking and and doing other things with your Ether. Uh so this is a natural uh and oh by the way we think we can light a fire under the Ethereum ecosystem. So, uh, we did our research, we raised a market, uh, and, uh, so far it's it's worked out pretty well, and we were hoping that, uh, um, that we would inspire other projects to do the same thing.

Uh, Tom, you're wearing a Tamagotchi. It this, um, this gives me some horror flashbacks of my Tamagotchi dying as a child, but also, you know, pangs of nostalgia. What is going on there, and what's that have to do with ETH? Uh well this is an Ethereum project uh Critters and you can follow it on Twitter at you critters. Um but it's an air it is an air quality measurement device uh because you know the Tamagotchi needs clean air.

Uh the good the number you want is 420. Um and it's currently 1433. So there's a lot of CO2 in this room. um not surprisingly because we're rebreathing air and I I think the level that affects your judgment ability is 600. So we're uh we're we're past you know we have impaired decision-m here so we might be making um outlandish statements.

So we're say that the number that you want is 420. That's interesting.

Well yeah I don't know if it's if it's rounded down to 420 you know. Um maybe to double click on something that you know Joe you said uh maybe throwing it to Sam. What do you think makes ETH more compelling as a DAT than something like Bitcoin which started it?

Yeah well look listen we're now um there was a time when we all lived through the era of Garrick Ginsler and um that chairman couldn't decide whether Ethereum was a commodity or a security. So because of that legal chaos around Ethereum, Bitcoin had a bit of a head start and you had folks like Michael Sailor going around championing what was a commodity which is Bitcoin. But Tom, Joe and I were not able to really champion Ethereum because there was there were some questions about whether it's a security or a commodity. You can't really champion a security unless you want to go to jail. So we couldn't really go out there.

Now there's a lot of regulatory clarity around Ethereum. You're seeing a lot of congressional acts being passed through uh particularly on stable coins. And as we know most stable coins are built on Ethereum and so you're seeing a lot of friendly action towards Ethereum. Garensler has now put out to pasture and you know that's why you're seeing a lot of great price action on Ethereum. That's why there's been an unleashing of Ethereum.

the developers on the Ethereum ecosystem can write code without fearing that they're going to go to jail. So that's a big deal and that's why you're seeing a lot of price action on Ethereum. That's why you're seeing these treasury trades on Ethereum. We can safely now champion Ethereum the same way that Michael Sailor did with Bitcoin because Ethereum is now safe to say classified as a commodity just as Bitcoin. But to answer your question, why is it superior?

Well, first of all, a few things. I don't know where to start, but Ethereum has, and thank you for this, Joe, smart contract technology. Very important. You can disintermediate and rewrite the financial system with smart contracts. It has staking.

Again, Bitcoin doesn't have smart contracts. Bitcoin doesn't have staking. It is a superior form of treasury. And again, we were kind of stuck because of Garrett Gendler. He's gone.

And that's why you're seeing an unleashing of Ethereum. And frankly, If Bitcoin and Ethereum were invented on the same day, you probably would never have heard of Bitcoin at this point. It Bitcoin had a head start. I understand that it was safely classified as a commodity. Ethereum was stuck.

Now it's unleashed. So that's why we're all here today on the stage.

Yeah. So just let let me build on that a little bit. Um for years uh we've been um sort of baby sibling uh to Bitcoin. Um and Bitcoin has been doing well because it has a clear value proposition and it's building for for today essentially. Um, we've spent we've racked our brains for years trying to come up with a a pity the pathy alleible way of um sharing the value proposition or the value propositions of Ether and Ethereum.

But it's so hard because Ether is such a big ecosystem and you can kind of do everything in a decentralized way on Ethereum layer 1 and Ethereum layer 2's. Along comes Tom Lee and he nails it. uh maybe in his first try he basically said uh ether's the next bitcoin ethereum's the next bitcoin I was like oh my god that that is brilliant and he was talking about mind share um and um what's incredible about ethereum is that and the reason that there are two three e that companies and a major eat investor on this stage is because we can differentiate ourselves in so many different ways because we have such a a giant um canvas to paint on.

I love that. Hopefully not too many or maybe we should hope for some Bitcoin maxis in the crowd. I love that Sam is always, you know, getting it a little going. What how do you think one of the things that I like the most about DATs as I've thought about what they really provide is it's almost like a third leg of the stool to there's always a labs, there's a labs, there's a foundation, and now there's a DAT. And I feel like DATs can do something and advocate in a way that others can't.

But that's very controversial. Um how do you guys think that should will participate in the ecosystem?

So uh sharpl link and consensus um are joined at the hip um and uh um we have a lot of people uh working together um from consensus secunded into sharplink etc. Um essentially we see three parallel tracks uh for us to follow. Uh the first one that that we're all doing um is raise a ton of capital and convert it to ether instantly. Um the second one do your best job of earning yield uh riskadjusted yield um on your ether. Uh we think we have some really exciting ways uh to do that uh with our linear layer 2 technology and so we think we'll be able to stack um ways to to earn yield.

Uh the third one is essentially the long-term opportunity where Tom's probably going to get to 5% first. Um it's a bit of a sprint uh in this early stage, but it's it's a marathon really. Um we're all probably going to get up to significant percents of the monetary base. Um but we're not going to want to go too far because the community is probably going to start pushing back. Uh and so we move into this um this phase in which we're building and investing in infrastructure.

So we're all going to amass giant piles of highpowered money, ether. Um it's highowered because it's uncensorable because tyrants in different nation states can't can't use it to repress their population when when the debt's too high. Um and upon this high-powered money pile uh we can do things like Berkshire Hathway where we can uh do civilization building uh for the increasingly decentralized civilization. We can borrow against it. Uh we can use it to stake in important protocols.

Um we can um use it to king make uh which may be too centralized a term term to use but uh to identify the best and brightest young builders to invest in protocols. And we think we're going to be able to to set up a flywheel where we 2x or 50x or a 1000x via investments that we make uh once once we're in in ecosystem or civilization building mode.

Yeah. And if I want to if I could add um I do think uh Ethereum is uh a blockchain where there can be a lot of differentiation with the treasuries. Um you know Bitmine's view is that Ethereum is is starting a super cycle. So we are at the base um of a big transformation happening on Wall Street and AI uh that's moving onto the blockchain. And I spent some time this morning talking about it.

And so part one of like a Ethereum treasury is just to acquire Ethereum because it's an a vastly undervalued asset. But because there's so much that's taking place and it's a uh you know it's Wall Street literally building uh a financial services system on the blockchain. That's where someone who does accumulate a significant stake in Ethereum can actually play a benevolent role in in actually that sort of onboarding process. So I think phase two of of BitMine's view is, you know, we want to be not only involved with um DeFi and education and really helping communicate the narrative around Ethereum, but it's also building the rails that will make the financial system operate on Ethereum. And you know, of course, it's a huge addressable market.

Uh I mean, I think it's, you know, over the next 20 years, it's really more than half of all global GDP will end up being um taking place on the blockchain. And that's, you know, that's an 80 trillion economy. So that's uh a huge number. And um so I think that third part is bridging um financial systems because I think traditional financial markets as they're getting tokenized on crypto. It's also making the the treasuries uh kind of sitting at the center of that and and part of it is institutions can't buy ETH directly and they don't want to buy the Ethereum ETF which means that these DATs represent pure exposure for the institutional world and that's a huge number because I mean I would say you know when bitwise says 5% of bit mine is left to be mined and 95% of institute initutions don't own Bitcoin.

Well, Ethereum is having its, you know, let's say 2017 moment and less than.1% of institutions own Ethereum. So, there is a massive massive flood of capital I think that's going to come go into the ETH treasuries, especially the ones that are differentiated.

I love that everyone shares the same north star, which is really advocating for Ethereum. When I think about that number one job is to advocate for the underlying token. But when you zoom out, there's obviously has to be differentiation between all three. I'm sure people in the crowd are considering BMR, SBT, BTBT. What do I do?

And as an investor, I'm very happy about that. That there is this very high level of competition between you three. That's healthy for capitalism, healthy for ETH. How do you guys differentiate yourself? I want to give each of you an opportunity to say why, you know, why you?

What are you doing that's different? Well, Bit Digital is uniquely positioned and there are a few reasons for that. What are the three ways to get what are the three sources of capital to buy Ethereum? Either through your business, either through equity financing, either through debt financing. So, Bit Digital recently IPOed its AI business just last month.

Very successful IPO and we own 71.5% of that business. It's called White Fiber. Why am I talking about White Fiber? It is a pure play AI infrastructure company.

And Tom is right. There are super cycles that are happening right now. Those super cycles are in Ethereum and AI. So the way we positioned ourselves is to stack Ethereum and to have an IPO of an AI infrastructure company which is White Fiber. So Bit Digital is two line items on the balance sheet.

It's Ethereum and Wi-Fi which is the ticker. Great ticker by the way I think. So if we are exposed to the two greatest story arcs of our time which is artificial intelligence and bit digital and we're able to use the business a real business right which is AI that AI business and we could sell down that position in a measured manner we could use that as a source of capital that doesn't dilute existing shareholders. Also, there's no reason to sell down that position anytime soon because as the valuation of white fiber goes up, that cascades into the valuation of Bit Digital shares. That's called a win-win.

The second way to purchase Ethereum, and by the way, there is no other debt that I know of that has that lever, the first one, through the business. The second one is through equity financing. Very simple. Sell equity above mnav. Very simple.

Third is through debt financing which is very interesting. Michael Sailor has showed us the playbook on how to do this business. You have to be very creative on the capital structure in order to run a successful treasury business. So what do you do with that? You could sell your equity.

That's fine. But the debt is super interesting. And for some reason there is no Ethereum treasury company that has sell has a levered play on Ethereum. and we noticed that. So this week we created a situation with our convert where you sell debt and no it's not secured and that's very important because there is toxic debt where you secure your debt and then there is nonsecure debt and that's very important.

So we raise capital non-secure debt and that's extremely important because if you have secure debt listen we've been through a number of crypto winters and if you have secure debt your lenders are going to go after your crypto take your crypto and that eth treasury company is going to go bankrupt. So you have to have unsecured debt which is what we did with our convert and we're the first ones to do that as of this week. So those are the three routes and how we differentiate ourselves is to have this lever play with unsecured debt and to have an additional capital lever with white fiber being exposed to the greatest arcs of our time which is digital assets particularly ethereum and secondly artificial intelligence. Yeah. So I think uh in terms of nearterm activities uh the DAC companies are probably going to overlap in their strategies significantly or somewhat and have different elements of differentiation in in how we use our ether to to earn yield.

Um the greatest strength that uh shar link offers uh and perhaps its greatest differentiation is the the intimate partnership with consensus. Consensus is the the broadest and deepest company in the Ethereum space and therefore the the broadest and deepest blockchain company. Um we uh we're full stack. Um we have been building out the Ethereum protocol uh for years. We built Ethereum clients for years.

We help run the Ethereum network. We've built layer 2 technology um that is turning into a leading layer 2 technology. the the Lineia uh ZK EVM layer 2. Um we've built uh MetaMask, the the largest non-custodial wallet on the planet. So over a 100 million of you, hopefully all of you um uh use uh MetaMask uh annually and and 20 to 30 million on a monthly basis.

Uh so we have giant distribution. We're rolling out a rewards program. the rewards program. Uh we'll shower the world with Lineia tokens and uh MetaMask tokens and other tokens uh over time. Uh and we'll do things that uh that link um activities in the consensus ecosystem.

A lot of mutually supportive uh positive feedback loops uh to things that uh that ESB is doing. So um a lot of flywheels. Um yeah and I'd say you know BitMine's differentiation you know is driven by some of the first principles of the company. Um the first is uh it's important to have a pristine balance sheet basically what we call a fortress balance sheet. Um, and that's why Bitmine carries around $600 million, um, as you you've seen our weekly updates, cash, uh, because that gives the company the ability to, uh, to buy ETH offensively if there's a big decline because we we try to buy ETH very carefully.

or of course uh we can protect shareholders if the stock uh somehow uh weakens and so we have an offensive and defensive reason to carry so much cash. Um, a second has been really been a shareholder focused um, model and and for shareholders that means really helping anybody who buys Bitmine understand why they're owning the stock. And so we do publish a corporate presentation every month and we have a chairman's message so that you can clearly follow our strategy and as you know the phase one of that is to acquire 5% of Ethereum and then phase two and phase three are really seeding the ecosystem and then helping build the rails for the rest of Wall Street. Um and the third is that the company has emphasized the importance of having the stock uh be highly liquid. Um and Bitmine trades uh $2.

5 billion a day, which makes it the 26th most traded stock in America. Um and it uh is also the 518th largest company um today in the US stock market. So it's uh attracted institutional investors because this is a pure play large cap weight for them to get exposure and we hope to be included in the major indices uh on the next rebalance which would be June of next year and and and that is really had been a big unlock for Micro Strategy because they started to get uh you know 1,500 large cap instit institutional funds that would have to now own a Bitcoin entity. And I think that's where when we begin to stake and we want to do native staking, you know, the $12 billion of Ethereum held by Bitine, uh, it could generate as much as almost $400 million of pre-tax income. And that would actually make Bit almost the 800th most profitable company in America as well.

So I think that we're trying to differentiate ourselves by keeping the story super clean and super simple but and and communicate that to shareholders. Let me reflect back a little bit of what I observe and what makes you guys differentiate and maybe ask a specific question Tom for you. I feel you know I my observation as an investor is I get the opportunity to see what's worked what hasn't how people evolve and it does seem like for DATs the key thing is attracting main street retail right and mainstream and financial media and and less so as much as I love everyone in this crowd less so the crypto natives who do you think is the new buyer base that you are attracting and how are you reaching them

is a question for

yeah for you Tom

uh I mean it's broad-based uh because there's If you look at the traditional equity market, the retail and there there's really four four cohorts like these are the dependable buyers of stocks. We know it's institutional and that's 30% of the market. Then there's United States retail uh which is both Robin Hood but also high net worth. So it's two cohorts within retail. The third is institutional family office pension.

So that's different than a mutual fund or hedge fund. And the fourth is international. Uh we've at Bitmine we we've studied this. We have a very large institutional and growing presence. Uh we are Kathy Wood I think a top 10 holding for the ARC funds.

Um and she is our largest shareholder. Uh we are really proud about that because she of course is an exponential thinker and originally a Bitcoin primary person but now she realizes Ethereum and Bitcoin are friends which I acknowledge. Um and uh but we have a lot of retail investors over 330,000 um holders and we are starting to see a lot of family office interest um because again this is a direct play in a levered way to get exposure to Ethereum and then uh we have a large international base. I know uh for instance in some countries we're the third most traded stock in that country after Nvidia and Palenteer. So I think we are finding that we are tapping into all four universe of investors.

That's very exciting. And then Joe, when I look at Sharplink, one of the things that I thought was most exciting was and really a marker of where the maturity of DATs has gone is was the hiring of Joe Shalom uh and bringing in, you know, a heavy hitter from Black Rockck. How do you think about building management teams and what what it was like to recruit talent for a DAT?

Yeah. Um so Joseph uh came from Black Rockck. He built the Aladdin platform. Um he is rigorous about uh uh not wasting money, keeping expenses tight. Um we are very focused uh in the near-term and medium term on protecting the shareholder and providing value to the shareholder.

Um so that's about um potentially um so it's about growing the concentration of ether per fully diluted share but it's also about paying attention to the price of the stock. So um if we need to buy shares we will do that um we can do that without uh selling any ether um and uh um and so that's uh bringing that sort of rigor uh from an organization like black rockck um is helping us. We are building out our infrastructure so that we can do everything we need to do uh cost-effectively in-house. Um and long-term um we're going to be taking care of our retail investors are going to institutional and family offices um and sovereign wealth funds because our long-term focus um is growing outsized wealth for our shareholders um by building infrastructure that is um highly aligned uh with the Ethereum technology and the Ethereum ecosystem. And we think uh um we think that's going to be the the most effective growth strategy.

Yeah. And Sam, whenever I evaluate public companies, I always think about the experience of the team. And when I look at a lot of these dats that are formed, it's not public company people. So when I look at Bit Digital, you've been a CEO of a public company for for quite some time. What do you think is is like is the skill set needed to be a proper public company CEO and what maybe other DATs might be missing?

It's not just one person. It's not just me. Um, I'm I'm surrounded by co-founders who bring a superheroic skill set to the table. One's an originator, one's creates the an institutional process, the other one is dealing with the risk management, and I'm dealing with the marketing. So, you know, it's just really about surrounding yourself with a team of Avengers and uh and uh and and the synergy of that is uh I'm I'm super blessed to be surrounded by by these uh by these gentlemen.

Awesome. And you know, when I think about what DATs really are at end of the day, one of the core drivers is using, you know, capstack management and financial engineering to to get what you need. What types of corporate actions are you guys most excited about? Do you guys want to pursue M&A? Do you guys want to issue debt?

H how I'd love to hear how each of you think about managing your cap stack.

Well, I have a very strong view about that.

Yeah.

Yeah. We we have to be, as I mentioned earlier, but it's worth mentioning, we have to be as creative as possible on our cap stack. Diluting existing shareholders is just one lever. So, the convertible that we did this week, I'm surprised we're the first ETH Treasury public company to do that. I would imagine that, you know, you guys will probably be looking into that too.

Michael Sailor truly did an incredible job being a a wizard on the cap stack and we just have to be very creative on leveraging that capital structure particularly with respect to converts. That is an extraordinary financial engineering tool. And I I just think that's what we need to do because if you're just selling equity above MNAV, that's great. You got to do it above MNAV. It's just one lever.

And so we have to be really creative on that. And um and I I honestly think that not the long tail of these treasury companies are not going to exist if they're not being creative on the on the capital structure.

Yeah. So uh we are looking at preverts and converts and and you need the volume which we have. You need the options, you need the volatility. Um so um maybe there will be an announcement at some point uh uh in the future.

We're the first

you also need uh long-term committed capital uh and so uh that's where that's when you go to the family offices and the institutions and and the sovereign wealth funds and uh um again civilization building technology.

Yeah. Um, you know, I I think that uh one of the things the team at BitMine did uh was study Micro Strategies playbook really carefully um because they executed 21 different uh financing transactions including some things that were novel um because they've essentially financialized uh the balance sheet of a company and they've done step function transactions uh which raise the the Bitcoin held per share. Bitmine's view is that there's uh several unique characteristics about Ethereum and Bitmine that are helpful in raising money. And Bitmine's goal is, of course, to grow your Ethereum held per share. It was originally about $4 per share on July 8th when the first transaction closed.

That was the pipe. And as of August 27th, which was the last time we reported Ethereum held per share, it was almost $40. So we are growing your Ethereum holdings per share. And the way we've done it primarily is to take advantage of the liquidity of the stock. And again, it's the 26th most traded stock today, $2.

6 billion of trading. And so institutions are really eager to get exposure to a bit mine. But there are of course other virtues. One is um the high volatility of Ethereum. Ethereum is twice as vol sorry 50% more volatile than Bitcoin.

But there's also the high implied volatility of Bitmine stock which has an implied ball of 120. So the reason we've been sticking with straight uh and simple transactions is we don't number one introduce capital onto the capital structure things that compete with our equity holders. We want to deliver foremost uh superior returns to our common shareholders anyone who buys BMNR. Um but we also want to make sure that we can monetize that implied volatility correctly. The highest ball that Michael Sailor achieved on a convertible bond was 60 ball and Bitmine's implied ball is 120.

So we we'd either have to create a new kind of market for people to properly price that va or we have to wait. Um and then of course uh there is an inherent yield in holding Ethereum you know at 3%. So it does make sense like Sam can service his his uh convertible instruments with the staking yield. So I I don't think there's a problem with pursuing that structure. But I think for now Bit mine is going to tap into the liquidity side not the V side uh for financing and as as long as the market's supportive of that that's that's what we're going to pursue.

That's all helpful. As as someone who's invested in a lot of these and uh in many ways helped create helped form a lot of the beginnings of this industry, I bear the burden responsibility sometimes of many people yelling at me about all the risks and problems that there are with debts. And so I have my responses to them, but I'd love to learn from the masters, maybe going through uh one risk each at a time. Starting with you, Joe. The most common question is, you know, why do I own this versus spot?

as someone who clearly owns a lot of ETH spot, how did you think about that?

Um, so it's likely to be a better investment uh if you put your capital into an Etherdat um for a decent amount of time. Uh it's as simple as that for for a retail investor.

Yeah.

More Ether um per dollar if you're in it for for enough time,

right? And then another common push back is wow there are so many DATs like how do I think about differentiation um like how or you know why should there be so many DATs how Sam how do you think about how this all plays out there

there shouldn't be so many DATs

there shouldn't and they they will not do well that will end in tears you have to differentiate and um and we've done our very best and our darnest to differentiate

I I have a different view on that and and I'm not discounting what you're saying I know what you're saying and I agree with it. Um I think there will be different classes of DATs in the Ethereum space or or the broader space. Uh some will pursue yield in more immediate terms. Some will will be long-term ecosystem builders. Some some will have adjacent um activities that that grow value um alongside Ethereum.

Um there will be DATs that are multi-token. Um, and I agree that there will be uh some top tier DATs, a very small number of those in the Ethereum ecosystem. Um, but there will also be some regional DATs uh that are important for for um sourcing the capital of the local audience. Um and there's also a kind of DAT um that is uh going to be ubiquitous um in in the internet era. Um there are these companies these interactive companies or the these web studio companies uh and they formed when the web uh started to get traction.

They formed to build websites uh for companies. they they formed to uh to build e-commerce sites for companies and eventually mobile etc. Um initially they were called internet companies um and then everybody was an internet company. Uh so I think we're going to move into a phase uh where virtually every company recognizes that they have to do something on Ethereum layer 1 or Ethereum layer 2. In order to do that, you need to own tokens because because the way to participate, it often involves just the ownership of a token and and the use in a protocol.

So, they're going to need to take care of their token treasuries. Consens almost nobody's thinking about this. Consensus is thinking about this because we're building MetaMask um decentralizing MetaMask infrastructure so that everybody can build on the technology. We're building MetaMask consumer. We're building MetaMask bank.

We're building MetaMask Enterprise. Uh, and so, um, all these DAT companies, all the companies in the world are going to call themselves DAT companies for a little while, then they'll just be called companies, um, in the web 3 space.

Yeah. And then the third risk that I hear the most people talk about or push back is all these DATs, they'll trade at NA, like one times NAV or below NAV over time. Tom, I I love the framework that you've put together. Like, what is the fundamental case for why these can trade or can or should trade at a premium? Um yes I I think ETH debts should trade at a premium.

Uh one they should trade at one times their ETH holdings. Uh there may be temporary disruptions. Uh additionally because of the staking yield of 3% if you apply just a S&P market multiple let's say 20 times that's a 6 on top of the debt. Now, if I look at Michael Sailor, u they don't have a yield, but he trades at 1.6.

I I think a lot of that6 is the fact that he's in the Russell 1000 index. So, I think that's passive institutional flow. So, an Ethereum debt when it is included into a major index like the Russell 1000, it probably should trade well over two times. Um, I think there's many actions an ETH DAC can take if it trades below NAV. And I don't know if that's one of your questions, but I have some views, but I'm sure these guys have views.

I want to hear them.

Huh?

I want to hear them.

Yeah,

we can talk backstage.

Yeah. But I think there's many things I would prescribe and it'd be a checklist of actions. And I think that, you know, to me, uh, it it's not necessary to have mergers happen. I think ETH debts can internally solve their own uh problems

and mergers may not be most effective for the space because all of us are going to get to uh a giant pile of ether. Uh so it may not make it may be better that we all stay separate and uh collaborate where it makes sense.

Well, as as the as the guy who lives in the capital markets, I I I like consolidation. And it generally is good for returns on capital, but I I get the hardest part is finding a willing seller.

Yeah.

Maybe just as we close out here. Um, one one final question for you guys. You know, the most going back to what DATs are is advocating for the underlying token. If I were to ask you guys for your oneliner on why ETH, what is it? Starting with Tom and going down.

Oneliner.

Oneliner. A sound bite for you.

Is it like a, you know, 20 foot long? I will leave it up to you how long you want the ticker tape to be.

I I think ETH is in a super cycle because Wall Street and AI are building on a neutral public blockchain which will end up being Ethereum.

Uh so the global economy is progressively decentralizing and the Ethereum technology will be the foundational trust layer of of the web 3, the next generation economy. um you missed the biggest risk of all which is if you're running a company, if you're a builder, biggest risk would be not participating in the Ethereum economy.

I think uh not participating in the in the two greatest things of our time, which is Ethereum, which will rewrite the financial system, and artificial intelligence that will rewrite society. It's already happening. So positioning to be exposed to those two story arcs is for us the most important thing at Bit Digital.

Well, you guys heard it here. ETH is an incredible asset for all these reasons and DATs could be an interesting way to express that. Thank you guys for pioneering this.

Thank you.