Emerging Markets: Crypto’s Next Frontier? - TOKEN2049 Dubai 2024

what entrance music so great to be here at token 2049 Dubai thank you for having us my name is Amanda casset AKA amanda. eth on Twitter and excited to be the moderator for our incredible Emerging Markets panel I thought perhaps we could to get started just go around and each introduce ourselves I will begin uh I'm the founder and CEO of seratonin the largest web 3 native marketing firm before that was Chief marketing officer at consensus where we built the first web 3 marketing team and brought ethereum as well as metamask and fura truffle getcoin many more to Market um next hi Amanda pleased to be here today my name is Matthew I'm the managing partner of Rise Labs we invest in primary and secondary markets all around the world and we represent our invested portfolio company in uh in Emerging Markets everywhere from China and India to Brazil and Singapore and many places in between pleased to be with you and and the panel today thank you Jan hi I'm uh Jan Chu I'm the founder of kinetic uh kinetic was the first uh really institutional money uh in Hong Kong in crypto dating back to 2016 I've been in the space since 2013 we've invested in over 275 coming up on 300 companies seed investing in companies like salana polka dot ethereum crowd sale worldcoin um and uh many many others uh very excited to be here and excited to talk about some of the opportunities uh more about the opportunities for emerging markets awesome Martin gika founder of mountain protocol uh yield bearing stable coin and I'm uh from Argentina we clearly one of the leading countries in crypto because we need it and uh yeah being in Bitcoin since 2011 so you've already mentioned Argentina but I was hoping just to get started we could draw a mental map for our audience and talk about which countries in particular in the develop world are adopting crypto and maybe each of us could pick one or two to focus on wherever we want to start sure so if you look at the top of the adoption charts you see probably Nigeria India and maybe even uh a country like Vietnam to me India though is still one of the most interesting and that's for a couple different reasons uh so first of all it's one of the youngest large countries in the world so there are a billion plus people but the average age is is something like 28 29 years old secondly it's an extremely digital Savvy nation that already has digital Financial rails UPI which people are accustomed to so in that sense the the entrance fee in terms of understanding digital payments is substantially lower than countries that are still more cash-based economies and then the third thing which actually maybe I save the The Best For Last is that uh as I think many of us know it has uh one of the most substantial and impressive classes of uh developers of any country in the world and I think Prime you know before 10 years 15 years ago people might have thought of that as uh okay they're going to be the back office for Microsoft or something like that and man those days are over because they are really here to do big things uh you know maybe last generation was um talking about how people from emerging economies that live in the United States are over represented in the sea Suite but now it's going to be how emerging economy leaders are over represented still back in their own countries doing amazing things leading their own companies that they themselves founded I think there's a couple ways to think about emerging countries one is obviously in terms of innovation and being on the bleeding edge of the actual use of the technology and of course Latin America is exciting because there's so many different experiments that are kind of born out of the necessity of being needing to uh kind of transfer money but at the end of the day I think it actually just boils down to a numbers game uh and if you're talking about numbers in terms of population I think you're really just talking about India as Matt said you're talking about China and you're talking about Indonesia I think these are the three most important markets and and Matthew's already talked about U India uh Indonesia I think is kind of slower to come to the four but I think that it's going to be very important because they have a digital uh mindset with a lot of the kind of super app like grab uh and I think that crypto will be very important there but I want to talk about China for a second because I think China is a bit counted out of the equation because of the whole restriction and of course we're at token 2049 not blockchain 249 but in reality China still has a very interesting ecosystem for blockchain technology and I'm not talking about developers who are working on crypto projects in China but not actually working on crypto projects I'm actually talking about what the government is doing in in terms of deploying blockchain technology for things like digital ID uh actually the Chinese government and a lot of the uh kind of regional governments are very very quickly and very very um you know uh I think uh nimbly deploying block non- cryptocurrency blockchain Technologies uh and one of our portfolio companies uh BSN is actually at the Forefront of helping to develop some of these uh uses and I think digital ID is actually going to be one of the biggest obviously everybody talks about uh the uh you know you know the ecny and the kind of digital cbdc but I wouldn't kind of leave blockchain technology out of the equation about Emerging Markets because when it comes to numbers you can't really count China out super interesting blockchain without crypto um what do you think Martin so I think in terms of numbers definitely Asia is the is the biggest um I think Argentina to me is very interesting uh not on the numbers perspective but in terms of like at the bleeding edge of adopting new stuff so if if you're World War II and you're going to invade Europe you're going to enter through the easiest path which is Normandy in crypto if you want to solve financial needs for people that are really in need of those financial products Argentina is probably in that in that limit and my grandm is's 87 she uses crypto monthly like at least probably once a week um she keeps her her finances in in US dollars in crypto because intram month inflation is usually above 10% per month uh yearly inflation is is uh it was 300 on December now it's coming down I think uh people don't trust the banking system we had a coralito in 2001 no one trusts a dollar deposits in a bank even though you can have them they're not worth the same as a dollar in your pocket so there's dollar denominated uh loans or even peso denominated loans collateralized by crypto happening in Argentina so I think as a as a market you see Solutions coming uh to real problems that people have a lot earlier that those Solutions are needed in in other markets so I think it like ruling out seeing what's happening in terms of the Innovation uh leaves you kind of in in the back end of the curve so may I just I I just love the comments about Argentina because I I I was thinking about prior to the panel and I was thinking about some of these emerging economies and Argentina is probably a really good example of this where if if you think about where is the actual use case for taking your monthly salary and putting it into stable coins rather than Fiat I mean that that's that's these hyperinflation economies is the actual use case for that right uh far more than than say the United States as much as we like to talk about you know the dollars uh the dollar eroding over over periods of many years and then also really what we're talking about we always talk about crypto as a uh as a kind of trust machine and it's it's these emerging economies frankly that uh very often are lower trust societies and uh and they're just so more in so much more incentivized in many ways I think to uh to adopt crypto which is why we're we're seeing them at the at the top of so many adoption charts and let let me add one more so if you think about I think convenience is one that in crypto we talk a lot about the U but if you think about buying US dollars from the black market or we call it the blue Market Argentina you have to go to what we call a qua which is a store you're going to give pesos they're going to give you dollars are they counterfeit are they not um what rate are they going to give you you're going to only find out when you get there is it the best rate uh whereas in crypto is just an app you swap like my grandma can do that in the safety of her house on a Saturday so it's like I feel like crypto is turning financial services from going to a shopping mall to an Amazon right and that ux experience we still have a lot of work to do but it's still in emerging economy it's substantially better than the traditional actually think uh the going on this uh you know the work that needs to be done I think the panel right after us is paavo durov and Paulo Arduino from tether about to make a big announcement I'm sure we all know what that announce is going to be I mean I think these types of things are actually going to really kind of ramp up and and accelerate the work that we have to do because there's 900 million monthly active users in Telegram and you know at once they're all going to be able to you know use like ative crypto wallet with potentially a native stable coin and I think these of things will actually get us to this idea of you know the ubiquity uh of kind of capital availability and on-ramps and off-ramps really being the last uh Frontier of kind of friction for a lot of these developing markets to actually have you know access to to Capital so I think this brings us to an interesting point crypto is being adopted in the developing world for its actual product Market fit use cases and serving as a financial Lifeline whereas as we spoke about on the previous panel in the post-industrial world a lot of crypto is speculation and so curious if you each have a take on which web3 Technologies in particular are the ones being adopted in the developing Market because they're actually sometimes different Technologies than the main ones that people in the developed world are focused on maybe I I do I I do think there's some some Nuance there I I just want to point out that I do think um it can be a combination it's almost like a barbell situation in in some of these countries where there's um there's a combination of crypto being used for real use cases in a more fundamental way along with speculation to a degree that is almost unimaginable it's really both sides a Infinity like all these things take take off yeah yeah yeah yeah so it's almost it's almost both extremes I I think probably China can be a good example that uh as well mainland China where you have people that um where you have gray market economies we're just talking about usdt you have gray market economies with people uh transacting on the Russia China border or other borders youing using usdt which is even though it's Bray Market that's a real function and then you have speculation that is I I would I would suggested significantly more intense for lack of a better word than than even in the United States with some with some of these meme coins so I I just wanted to to to First mention that but then um in terms of yeah in terms of actual use cases one of the most obvious ones for example uh has has always been remittances and in fact I I I couldn't help myself on on the taxi driver when I landed I couldn't help myself so I started asking him about where he's from and things like that and then somehow I guess he he said well why are you in town I said crypto and he he actually said that he uses crypto to send money back home to Bangladesh so I I think there are remittances is a great example where there's a very very obvious crypto use case only caveat is that the the new banks are actually catching up quite rapidly in this as well so there's a little bit of an arms race for non- crypto rails new Banks just some initial thoughts yeah I I would agree with that I mean it's a boring answer but it's payments I think payments it's just you know crypto makes payments easier better uh more efficient creates more uh types of servfaces to to kind of touch things so I I would imagine that it's payments and then it's it's other things that are already popular it's gaming it's culture um you know the easy ones I I think in some ways it's less about you know what is what is crypto doing well in these emerging what types of use cases is crypto doing doing well and the other way is to think about it is what type what are the biggest use cases that crypto can really you know help uh you know reduce friction or reduce cost or make more accessible so yeah it it's payments to me it's uh stable coins and uh the ecosystem are on stable coins so it's uh mainly usdt it's low cost networks Tron mostly polygon POS and it's uh services around stable coin so that where that's uh remittances B2B payments savings accounts uh or just self cading assets as a B2B uh escro accounts using your usdt as collateral for a uh local currency loan um I hope we start seeing Forex uh start to happen more more on chain it's something I've been excited for a while and it's been taking longer uh mainly due to the lack of local curent local stable coins uh but I think stable coins is is is the name of the game I would I would so strongly Echo that stable coins are very seriously underrated as cryptos I would argue first real absolute home run product Market fit is stable coins and if anyone ever pushes back and says crypto has been around for so many years what's the what's an actual example of pmf man just go through the stable coin use case and it's just absolute home run the the fact that you can send value on chain to any anyone anywhere is is a complete product Market fit Innovation with with crypto and blockchain that that already is getting so adopted but I I'm curious with the prevalence of these USD Peg stable coins in all of these Emerging Markets are we basically seeing USD pegged stable coins replace small market cap currencies in these Emerging Markets is that a good thing is it an export for US dollar denomination I don't know they're replacing it yet I think it's still a little bit too early there there's a couple factors that need to be uh you know kind of revealed before we can really say that they're going to replace obviously the first is will the US government start to regulate uh and put the brakes on some of these kind of un USD back stable coins and if so what types of rails or what types of you know Hammer band will they put on it will they continue to be allowed to exist first of all in the context of the US market after you get past that let's say they they get to be allowed to exist um how what kind of what kind of local regulation will there be in the in the countries that are most affected by it and I think that goes down obviously to each Administration uh in each country so it's definitely possible that they could and they probably will but I just don't know there there's so many uncertainties because we don't even know whether or not you know will tether be once and for all you know kind of targeted uh by doj like of course they're on the radar um there's curveballs like other types of regulated stable coins like will usdc kind of uh continue their campaign to try and you know ring fence the US market for themselves and box out some of these kind of foreign USD stable coins we're investors in FD USD which is the third largest USD back stable coin which is actually a licensed Hong Kong company so you actually have these external foreign back or foreign you know um domiciled uh stable coins which also are entering the mix and that's just in like the first inning right most people are still not using stable coins what happens when we get to second third fourth inning and you have large uh players like Black Rock and their Biddle which are you know also you know trying to become like a viable stable coin in a way so it's it's it's very early to kind of see what's going to happen but it's exciting I think if you leave it to the free market uh people would rather hold dollars than Argentinian Pesos than Turkish L than naira uh I think the market is like the water it always finds its way to do what it prefers and stable coin reduces the friction significantly to access a product that people already want so I think it's undeniable that there's substitution between USD and local currencies and some see it as a like strength of the dollar and uh it weakens local governments and so on I personally see it on the other side the person who is exiting their local currency is exiting getting crushed by the lack of proper management of the government I think it's unfair that my grandma has to buy stable coins because the government does cannot manage Argentinian peso so I'm all for it um let's go dollariz yes so let I I think let's be clear about what it's currently replacing in emerging economies it's currently replacing people hoarding gold bars and money that they bought on the black market that they stuff somewhere for the most part that's what it's currently replacing in in in many of these emerging economies especially hyperinflation or or strict Capital control situations things like that whether it will grow from there and and how is still a little bit of an open question uh and and you have to probably frame that in the context of United States dollar haimon worldwide being on the decline uh but but I I I really agree with the your your kind of Paradigm about about open and free markets and the water is going to flow kind of where it's going to go and I I think that aspect is is super healthy it's interesting because what that actually does is pulls back the curtain that actually the currency like the national currency of a country is actually a service like any other service water electricity uh and if the government sucks at providing that service and people are actually opting out for another you know USD then maybe they shouldn't be doing that service and maybe they're actually going to be competed out of the market um and so it starts to kind of um really pair down what the and and streamline what the role of government is and them existing as like a competitive uh service in a kind of Quasi Network bundle of you know Network State bundle of services which is also why many governments freak the actual out excuse my language about crypto because this is not just Finance it's not just technology it's finance and Technology together that in some ways is a very direct competitor to government services absolutely I do think it's super fascinating that this is usded and and you make that comment about the you know quote unquote us hegemony diminishing and yet the prevalence of USD denominated stuff um considering stable coins seems to be broadening sir um which I think is interesting here then the other phenomenon you see is some of these governments are starting to put floating uh cryptocurrencies on the balance sheet I guess my my question is are there any negative potential repercussions for any of this in Emerging Markets what happens when the bull market is over what if some of these floating tokens crash what if people are playing games and start to you know quit their real jobs and depend on those games for their salaries but then suddenly they can't get paid out are are there any worries about the degree of adoption I think it's a huge issue to second part last I you know for example especially to the extent that these uh token economies and token projects especially to the extent that they can be local or Regional for example with the the impact of uh Luna on South Korea um every cycle our importance to real economies gets substantially bigger than the previous cycle even last cycle the the damage to to South Korea from Luna was was really quite considerable number one and then number two I I understand that this opinion is probably not popular in this room but I I think uh putting floating crypto assets um I I think government should not be in that business I think it's it's adding a very substantial amount of risk to the economy if the government is if if governments are holding uh Sovereign wealth uh in in the form of Bitcoin for example as El Salvador is famous for I think it's a a genuinely terrible idea it's going to substantially increase the extent to which local economies will have booms and busts that were we're all familiar with how devastating booms and busts can be in the crypto economy right I I I don't think it's a super great idea to extend that to National governments let me put it that way yeah I think it's unfortunately you know it's the the developing world uh and particularly Global South that that typically foots the bill for a lot of you know the kind of excess uh in in the kind of modern world um so it's sadly inevitable that a lot of developing markets and a lot of uh the people in them um who are generally you know uh not as educated don't have as much access to to education and um will will ape into a lot of this stuff uh I think it's fair to say that the crypto Market is still very much a casino uh rather than you know a bundle of services uh and you know yes everybody you know gets to play in the casino but I think that developing World tends to you know pay most of the debt so yes it's a bit worrying and it's really sad that without enough education for the people who are going to be using these Services you know along with the stable coins along with the payments along with all that kind of stuff they're also going to be aping into meme coins they're also going to be kind of going into you know the the bit connects and the onecoins of the world and not knowing the difference between tether and bitconnect and a scam and and it's sad um but to be fair it's not just crypto I mean obviously there was the the whole Vietnamese um oh yeah w real estate Scandal 30 37 billion dollars which was scammed like 1% of the entire or two or two or 3% of like the entire country's GDP was just a few weeks ago few weeks ago crazy so again it's developing world and it's not just crypto but yes because crypto moves faster and it's more accessible all the things we like about it it actually punishes developing world the most Martin what do you think about this is there anything to be done about it I believe in Freedom so I think um people should be able to do with their money whatever they want I think governments should uh Embrace crypto and try to put stamps on regulating products that should be regulated I think stable coins are Bank deposits they should be regulated I think an exchange should be regulated they cannot re hypothecate customer assets I think custodians should be regulated outside of that like pretty much open if you want to gamble go on go on with it I think people in emerging economies are used to adapting I think there's Spain but there's also lessons so I very much believe in in in the free market and we iterate and learn um I don't think government should be in the business of running hedge funds so I think holding BTC like might as well pay down your debt and help future Generations like have flexibility to take more freedom um so yeah I think with your own money do whatever you want with someone else's money you have to be very responsible I I I want to clarify my remarks just now actually here here's what I think if you talk about Norway they have the largest Sovereign wealth Fund in the world not an emerging economy but it's a good example right so if you talk about Norway and you say does it make sense for their enormous Sovereign wealth fund or singapor or whomever to have one or two% of the total amount in crypto assets yeah sure that makes that makes sense to me there's reason reasonable Arguments for why that super makes sense on the other end of the spectrum it's a spectrum right on the other end is should a country like Honduras take all their dollar reserves and cash them in for Bitcoin this is a genuinely terrible idea they will very significantly uh increase the volatility of that country's economy so it's kind of a spectrum but but you know the the more extreme ideas that I tend to hear I I would really caution against those basically just to clarify a little bit Yeah so we we we've covered the potential effect of the crypto market and the participation on these emerging markets that are starting to adopt crypto either as stable coins for payments or putting crypto on the balance sheet but what about those markets themselves and their impact on the overall crypto ecosystem what if we flip it the other way around like at serotonin we see so many projects and until pretty recently very few of them were actually trying to Market to developing or emerging economies and the reason for that was because the actual amount of value being transacted per capita is really low even if the actual saturation ends up being pretty high um and so what if any impact do you think people can expect for more adoption in the Emerging Markets to have on the macro crypto Market is this something that we can expect to change prices charts which projects are successful I mean it's true that in the United States I still I still if I recall correctly it's still the the leader in in aggregate Flows In crypto but but India is number two and that's just for money that you can actually track on chain and if you look at money coming in through VPN or God knows what kyc I I'm very very confident China would be way up there as well I think people are very substantially underestimating how big these markets are in aggregate part of that is because they don't always come in through the the normal doors um and uh I think there's already a a track record that we've seen about projects who lean into this that can really take off I mean you know actually infinity and Philippines is is an obvious example that we all kind of know about but there are there are many of these there are many I mean even if you look at um I think a lot of times people are confused trying to figure out how why is binance smart chain so big well it's because they have perfect pmf for China when when when they went hard for go to market with China uh a lot of these projects if they can nail even one of these small emerging economies that is absolutely going to make their Pro their their project uh that's easier said than done but I absolutely think most Pro projects are very significantly understating how enormous Emerging Markets uh can be in terms of their success yeah we see this with BNB with Tron with some other projects that folks from the um developed world are sometimes surprised are so large and the answer is Emerging Markets Jan curious what you think here yeah it's it's like what I was saying before it's just a numbers game I mean the the largest populations are are in you know kind of developing world and I think just goes back to that I didn't think we've really even started to see the impact of that because generally crypto has so much friction so many ux issues uh that it's hard for most for the vast majority of people to get on board but once things like Telegram and others uh smooth that out I think there will be a deluge uh of utility applications uh and I absolutely think it will move the charts uh in terms of you know how much crypto is used um you know transactions like on chain everything uh I think that we just don't we as mat Matthew said we we kind of underestimated uh there's a language barrier there's a culture barrier there's like a you know a kind of a western you know blind spot to kind of developing World in terms of being just being interested in those markets and so a lot of stuff is happening be be under the surface but a lot more is uh is kind of just Beyond the Horizon I would flip it I think there's also uh the impact that Emerging Markets Builders are having in the global market um in crypto so uh open Zeppelin is AR Aran uh the central land is Argentinian uh there's uh hard hat we all use it Argentinian so there's like develop like Builders because they live in these economies they use these products uh there's hundreds of thousands of developers in in Latin America that get paid in crypto daily so they are playing around with crypto and building stuff to solve their problems that address a global market so I think Emerging Markets are not only a market they're also exporters of Technology globally um and I think we we'll continue to see that I think you talked about India I think India is also a massive exporter uh of of crypto technology and super exciting to see that yeah can't overstate the impact of the builders right because a lot of the big expensive infra projects come from Deep Capital markets areas like the states but then you see a lot of the actual applications and games being built in markets where it's more affordable to wrap rapid L iterate is that something you've been seeing absolutely for sure and and additionally I I think it's people very seriously underestimate if you look at the the anons that are hot shot developers and it's not publicly known who they are or Anonymous projects I think people very seriously underestimate I mean think about the reasons why it would be very important as someone to be anonymous certainly one would being in in a country where where it's a little tricky maybe that's Nigeria maybe that's India maybe that's China there could be lots of different reasons lots of different countries but very high a shockingly high percentage of those anons are from places like like those way higher than you'd think yeah it's been fascinating seeing all of the builders in places like hoochi Min City Jakarta Manila a lot of the cities in in India uh and and kind of the differentiation between what's being built there and some of the big infra coming out of the more kind of capital markets driven driven places um so a lot of focus folks here are investors Market participants of various sorts that may or may not be focused on what's going on in emerging markets and may or may not um be exposed to some of these Trends how can folks here get involved how can people here invest or participate in a way that takes advantage of this this set of insights that's such a good question that that that's a it's it's a double-edged well okay so it's a little bit paradoxical it's a better way to put it because um if you compare it to trafi the information flow between West and East and the relationship networks uh the the connections are substantially less than than in Trad F the relationship networks have much less overlap the information of flow and information asymmetry is is much higher but uh the paradoxical aspect of that is that really it's it's kind of an effort thing and there's I mean half of us are on Twitter even from countries where Twitter use is restricted to to some extent so many of us are on Twitter or telegram or in discords and things like that like Google Translates pretty sophisticated and most of these people speak English anyway to be honest you can just get out there and start talking to people and and really start to learn a lot so the you know paradoxical the the information asymmetry is tremendous way more than in tryed capital markets but you can really break that down much more than you think just by just by making an effort really yeah it's a tough one because uh I don't know if the world Works in a way where you know it's it's good to just kind of try and invest in an Emerging Market anymore I mean it's so much at least if you take a snapshot of today it's so much about narrative and it's about you know is it modular or is it like you know kind of a Bitcoin layer 2 and you know investing if you're just talking about investing I think those are kind of maybe more relevant ways of thinking about it if you want to invest in terms of you know output and you're talking about developers then that's quite obvious then um if you want to invest kind of culturally because you're interested in you know how to kind of uplift people and kind of really create Solutions then obviously that's something more like going there and spending time and actually understanding the needs of wants of the actual local people rather than kind of imposing different types of solutions so I think it depends on what you want to do um I think it's interesting the the types of opportunities that come from the developing world but from a pure investment standpoint um unless you're really spending the time to be there and absorb and really try to understand I think it's quite tough just to kind of you know think about it as like a as a sector to invest in as you might do say in the public equities markets but but what about in portfolio though are are there particular Investments that you've made that you feel are particularly aligned with growth in the Emerging Markets I mean we're investors in in ton which is you know telegram's blockchain and I think that is something which is completely aligned uh with you know advancing access to crypto and services and developing markets but it's not specifically anyone right it's it's something which kind of crosses over we're investors in chingari which is a social media application in India one of the top five but while I think that and that was to be fair that was a that was an investment that we made like two years two over two years ago and that was more of like a regional play going back and thinking about it I don't necessarily know if if that's the best way to kind of think about investing in those types of markets where you know earlier on you had you know in the very very old days I invested in icon in and icon was like Korean eth and was like Chinese eth uh and all these kind of historical projects but I don't think we're there anymore I think everything is so mixed and everything is so kind of um dispersed all of our teams are like where are you where are you from like I don't even know your name what country are you in doesn't really matter so everything is just much more mixed I think to invest in uh emerging economies I think you need to spend a lot of time I wouldn't uh discourage people from visiting uh places and seeing people use crypto in a different way than in uh in the Western World I think you get learn a lot by just spending a week Ino viris or Hong Kong or uh Manila um I think visiting and seeing how why people do what they do and understanding why usdt on Tron is so big if you don't go it's very hard to do and it really opens your mind and to understand like why these blockchains are massive and and why these use cases make sense so super lightning round before we wrap up um curious It's prediction time if if each of us could quickly think of a surprising interesting prediction about what's going to happen in the emerging markets in the next let's say year or so what what are people going to what are people going to see happen I'll go first uh I don't think it's going to be a year I'm going to drop a decade but I think the next Reserve currency is uh like we talked about the dollar and the issues the dollar is having I think the next Reserve currency is going to come from countries like Argentina and turkey and it's going to look like a Global Reserve currency Global Reserve currency it's going to be a multiple Global Reserve currencies but they're going to be set issuance Reserve currencies pushed by the government um with a set issuance per year um and we're going to have many but it's going to come from from Emerging Markets whether it's Argentina or it's turkey we don't know which one but between dollar rizing and doing that today they all dollarize at some point one is going to try that and I think it's going to be very successful yeah I I think uh I'll I'll kind of take that as well maybe more of like a 10year period um I think it's actually the unbundling of kind of like national identity and Sovereign identity U unbundling it from the geography that you're born in uh into like really just a bunch of services like it is kind of like this network State thing where you know it doesn't really matter where you're born I was born in the US lived in Hong Kong for many years but identif I'm half Filipino half Chinese what am I I think I'm probably much more a bundle of like the services that I use uh on as a as a consumer of government kind of like you know um you know uh utilities as well as those consumer things so I think that we start to transcend uh a lot of the the the kind of ties to national identity for uh how we you know how we use these Services we still maintain the cultural side but even that I think is becoming much more sadly homogenized as we you know kind of travel currencies as bundles of services modular identity yeah it is it's it's mod it's modular nationality yeah yeah uh certainly one thing that comes to mind is if you it continues to play its cards right as it has recently Hong Kong does have an opportunity to be substantially more important to the crypto economy than uh it ever was for the trafi economy even at at the heights which was quite substantial so that's that's one thing that comes to mind fascinating insights to end on thanks so much to our incredible panelists and thank you to our audience