Building Web3 Infrastructure for Mass Adoption - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2023

wonderful wonderful thank you all for being here so early in the morning both listeners and panelists appreciate having you up here at the beginning I'll start with some questions that will sort of have each of you answer the same question and then I'll move on to some individual questions for each of you the very first is the typical standard what is your name what are you working on in your company and why is that important to you I'll start with you please call so my name is Pascal Gautier I'm CEO at Ledger at Ledger weaker but security and ease of use for crypto assets we do this for consumers and we do this for Enterprise if you cannot secure your assets you cannot use them and so blockchain blockchain technology is Bitcoin ethereum all of this doesn't exist I always like to know who is in the room so if I may ask like who owns a ledger wallet okay thank you for those who didn't raise your hand it's ledger.com it works on mobile we ship everywhere in the world thank you hi everyone uh thanks very good to be here my name is James tromans I lead our overall web free efforts at Google Cloud obviously part of Google um we are obviously an infrastructure provider and we want to be one of the best places for web3 developers to build we've been at this for for a while which not everyone knows but in particular over the last couple of years which I'm sure you'll hear more about later on in this talk I'm Joseph Lubin I work at a company called consensus software uh consensus builds tools and services for developers to build applications in the metropolitan ethereum ecosystem we offer metamask security audit tools we offer in Pura we recently launched a layer two CK evm called Linea and our focus is on maximal decentralization we we build tools that enable permissionless Innovation especially right now in the metamask space metamask just launched a platform called snaps enabling anybody to build functionality and add functionality permissionlessly into metamask and we're doing the same thing at the infrastructure layer soon with decentralized infrastructure Network hi Matthew rozek and I'll just say that Singapore is very special to me because this is where I learned about Bitcoin about uh 12 years ago and by 2013 I started investing in the space through my firm tally capital and have been also advocating for crypto through the Chamber of digital Commerce so if you care about crypto if they care about their regulatory constructs and my day job is building block and block builds applications and infrastructure and web3 my co-founder is Jeff garzick who was one of the original core developers of Bitcoin and we build wallets nodes defy a variety of different applications and infrastructure thank you thank you I'd actually like to start at the end rather than the beginning of our conversation and by that I'd like to hear each of your thoughts on what Mass adoption looks like for cryptocurrency what do you think blockchains could look like if they were massively adopted in this world what systems would they be in what systems would they not be in perhaps we start with you Matthew this time that's a that's a biggie and I guess I'll start by you know what we are living in a generation where we have some amazing what I'll call human coordination technology I can't find a better word for it but if you think about like how we're able to disseminate information and news and data and money uh uh our parents our grandparents never had these opportunities it's almost like Gutenberg Press level coordination Technologies where humans could now uh move money data and information uh like never before and it's really important for us to be able to have these conditions to share these things uh and build these cooperatives and and have these uh these elements and I think if you think about these these basic elements of messaging and movement of money and everything else for those systems to be resilient they have to be born and and built on blockchain systems over over the long period of time and so I think uh the future of a lot of these important human coordination Technologies are going to be uh burnished and and built on top of web3 so this is a a really important scaffold and infrastructure and then uh you know on the periphery we're all thinking about you know how does AI play into this and uh you know a lot of those kind of coordination Technologies these digital agents will also help us as the world gets more complicated and and uh the rest of it so I think the uh the the scaffolding of web3 is going to be super important for literally every uh kind of system going forward yeah so for Millennia we've had uh trust and Authority uh instilled in all of our systems top down from Ultimate authorities down through intermediaries and into different databases that were essentially controlled by trusted third parties and and sometimes didn't make sense to trust those third parties um there's a new invention decentralized protocols started with the with Bitcoin essentially in in our context um and that represents our ability to build um infrastructure that is bottom up uh bottom-up trust foundation for the planet uh a shared open database in which we can participate in which we can directly inspect um and it's essentially an of by and for the people system so based on the new trust Foundation we can instill trust verifiability decentralized assets decentralized property rights into everything we build it's important to build a maximally decentralized trust infrastructure but then we can build uh upon that and bring decentralization and Trust to different layers of a heterogeneous modular set of systems that that are well connected so the Future Has appropriate decentralization built into lots of different systems we'll have heterogeneous systems because we have heterogeneous applications and so it's kind of an exciting time to be alive because we're we're flipping the trust Vector that we've been laboring under from from bottom down to to top down to bottom up and and it's going to change everything so I think Mass adoption will will look uh different to where we are now for sure I think when we stop talking about web 2 and web3 and we just talk about the web and Technology again and I think that the underlying technical implementation Fades into the background but still to support some of the things that Joe was just talking about I think that the overall sort of divide is perhaps you know getting in the way of that math adoption and I think technology is there to serve consumers it's a serve business outcomes and actually the the implementation details shouldn't necessarily be what the end user is exposed to day to day I genuinely believe that not everyone wants to be the owners of Their Own Private keys but I think people should be able to be if they if they want to be and have that option and so there's going to be a Continuum Continuum from from some Central centralization through to completely decentralized and I actually think we don't really have a good cohesive shared agreement amongst everybody of what fully decentralized means is that fully decentralized software teams that are building the technology is it networks is it the application layer is it all the way up to the top and all the way down to the bottom um you know there's always single points of um or bottlenecks in any system and when you optimize them you move it forward and the end user doesn't need to know about this I think the the end user needs to be able to get on with their day and and have a great user experience and so you know from a Google Cloud perspective we want to help our customers build those capabilities and um and I think when we're at a point to Circle back to how I started where you know we don't talk about web 2 and web3 is separate and it's just back to technology again and just back to the web I think we'll we'll be at a point of math adoption yeah I will stick on James uh on what you just said I think Mass adoption is usually when users or Enterprise or whatever you use something without really knowing that you're using the technology and it's more of a product and feature and what program it solves for you every day that makes you use the tech and you know crypto is a tech LED world today but product is very different and you have a good example of using the web on mobile you know it was very very difficult and suddenly came the iPhone and the way that the iPhone was designed was from a pure product and user experience point of view and suddenly it became very easy to use Internet and mobile I mean for those that are young enough to have you know sort of phones in the years of 2000 Etc and I've seen this revolution you can see how product sort of impacts usage and how product leads to to mass adoption and as far as Ledger is concerned and you know you will see that I'm super biased in what I'm going to say but nothing will work if you don't bring security and ease of use and the combination of the two and every web Revolution is always Hardware LED uh we are coming now in 2023 web 2 there is fantasy that uh web 2 is uh you know software is eating the world or something like that but he only eats the world because it's uh it's on Hardware uh actually if you think about the beginning of the internet there's a bunch of Hardware that had to be deployed you know cables and um to to actually make it work and if you don't have a PC well you cannot connect to the internet and if you don't have an iPhone you cannot connect to uh mobile internet in a in a nice way and when it comes to to crypto uh secure Hardware is going to be an obligation uh and so you will ask well is it in the form of what it is today we always need to have like a sort of a dongle with your phone Etc maybe not but maybe you know nobody likes gravity and everybody wants to fly but you know gravity is a and if you jump from the from the roof of a big building you die and so losing your private Keys is sort of everything there are many uh software initiatives to actually try to to make this go away but it's always sort of blended with uh with secure Hardware so is it going to be Ledger maybe are we going to try hard uh we'll sort of Apple Samsung Etc go into making their products much more secure than what they are today I think it's inevitable because whether it's web3 web 2 or whatever whatever the web you can actually see when you use products today that security is becoming uh sort of tighter every day you cannot connect to an exchange without having a 2fa which is something of now you know login password was enough a few years ago and now it's not enough anymore and actually you can see that it's becoming you know ever more complex to connect to your uh your your your web experience when and where there is value so you know I think for for Mass adoption and that in the time of Hardware is actually quite long you know even for big companies to go from sort of where they are today for Apple to come with the first really secure phone you know it's going take a few years so I think Mass adoption will come but you will need like a whole new generation of Hardware that make it extremely secure and very easy to use and a bunch of applications that run on top of that to bring real usability to user and create a real experience thank you by the way please feel free to cross-pollinate if any of you want to add on to something someone else says or contradict jump in um my next question is around trade-offs so each of you build infrastructure in different ways the more successful you are the more people use your infrastructure how do each of you think of the trade-offs between on one side decentralization everyone hosting their own nodes everyone chewing glass to figure out everything they have to do and then on the other side centralization the convenience of the tooling that allows them to spin up the things they need to develop in the web 3 space to change up the ordering perhaps we start with James and then Joe sure yeah so you know obviously I um very much believe in that choice of individual users being able to run their own nodes on their phone if there's a blockchain that's light enough for that to happen under their desk at home but I also think that choice is important and if people want convenience they should have that too and so obviously at Google Cloud we're building that convenience right we have blockchain node engine which is a Google engineered third-party product that enables folks to click to deploy or API or CLI an ethereum node full node or archival node and Global regions across the world and we're bringing to Market Solana and polygon very very soon as well and that's really convenient for certain people and it's very convenient for the Enterprise as well right folks who perhaps want to participate but not as a core you know individual at home but from a business standpoint they want a contract they want a vendor they want someone who they can have slos and slas with and if we want to have mass adoption this is critical we we need this level of infrastructure as well and I think from a Google Cloud perspective we have our own undersea cables right you mentioned Hardware when you add more network connectivity to a network you're not subtracting anything you're adding more routes from to get from A to B and so by leveraging Google Cloud's networks and and all the other networks we're able to actually add to more decentralization in a way so I do feel very strongly that we have an important role to play in helping bridge that Gap from the level of adoption that we have today through to wider adoption um but I also think that you know at the end of the day there's more than one role to play so we're an infrastructure company but if we can help build certain software capabilities that will bring more folks into the mix um that's good too and generally if you think about consumer adoption we need more developer adoption now Google cloud has millions of active developers on the platform and not all those developers know a lot about web free today right some of those developers are still building um in traditional Technologies so we're also building capabilities that help take on-chain data off-chain and make it easily searchable and indexable for anyone who knows SQL that's been something we've been doing through the community for five years already and so all of these things are important to to that adoption and I don't think that they subtract from the decentralization argument I think you know protocol Builders and Foundations if they don't want Enterprises like Google Cloud to build products that make it easier to run their software then they need to think a lot about egress right can you run certain nodes that are really really chatty on your home computer maybe not right is it too expensive um can you there are certain blockchains that take months to think right that's okay but we need to be doing more to make that quicker and so I think there's infrastructure providers have a lot to a significant role to play in in helping with that yeah so in some competitive spaces um losing is not an option you have to do anything you can to win um a nuclear arms race is a good example of that you don't want to lose that it's an existential issue in other spaces you have to pay careful attention uh to the ethics and in ethos of your space our space is obviously one of those spaces um our space can be divided into situations in which you really must focus on uh rigorous maximal decentralization from the start because it uh and even then you can't get there from the start it's very hard to build something that's uh profoundly rigorously decentralized but you need you need the Mind share you need to bring the talent that believes in that mission and you need to do everything you can to achieve that mission um so the ethereum technology is an excellent example of that um it in my opinion will be very hard for for certain protocols that made certain trade-offs for performance to let technology fix the problems I think our use cases and users Etc are going to grow probably faster than than the hardware technology improves that said these Technologies can be excellent in certain contexts that I said at the start that I anticipate a heterogeneous highly modular modular modules sub modules all all really richly interconnected so so I think we're all doing valuable things um even in the ethereum ecosystem the the foundation must be maximally decentralized and we've got to continually drive and be vigilant around that um but at higher layers it's important to be seen as uh as decentralized but we took the decision at consensus uh to focus on performance uh for inferior uh for for serving responses to uh to requests and and we took the um the highest priority as being security uh for for metamask and so we've evolved those all along verbally committing to Progressive decentralization which we've achieved partially already and and are going to achieve in spades soon and and uh Progressive decentralization um involves permissionless Innovation so in the metamask context we have the snaps platform which went live a few days ago and uh in terms of different kinds of functionality whether it's a transaction inspection or security or messaging infrastructure messaging to users or or users just chatting amongst one another or adding connectivity to bitcoin Solana tazos Doge Stark net Etc that is all available now for anybody to build without us being Gatekeepers so for permissionless innovation in the metamask context leads to maximal decentralization for the metamask platform we're doing the same thing for inferior decentralized infrastructure network is getting built based on what we built with infuro we achieved product Market fit performance it must stay performant or people won't use it but now we've brought in some some high-powered Partners to create a a Federated version of infuro which will ultimately end up being a decentralized version of the network Matthew and then Pascal yeah I agree with everything Joe said and I like how he talks about Progressive decentralization uh I think it's a um everybody looks at the space and and says it's like a picture but it's like a it's a movie and this stuff will evolve over time and I think the network topology when you have nodes and data and all these really really important things that are essentially the oxygen and creating decentralization um these piece parts are really important and the other kind of um knock that our industry gets is that a lot of our nodes and infrastructure is sitting in a closet whether it's Google or AWS or elsewhere but then I also think about um what what if I squint my eyes and I think about what does Google look like in the future sometimes uh there there's these provisioning agents that wind up finding compute and storage and data uh in the most decentralized way possible so you know it'll be less about having boxes with Blinky lights and warehouses it'll be more about these provisioning agents and how do you get all these elements to create full decentralization not only on a node but the whole node stack as well and so I think that's a big opportunity for Builders and uh um kind of folks that are thinking about how do you make this more decentralized uh those provisioning agents are going to be very very important can you remind me your question yeah of course basically as you build infrastructure and crypto how do you think about the trade-off between centralization and decentralization yeah so for us the question is if not decentralized why you know I don't think these Technologies exist to be centralized again I mean you know you can always sacrifice everything to convenience but if there is no need for another centralized assets like you know these already exists uh you have a bank you have Fiat Etc and so the beauty of this ability to own a digital asset is really the The Invention and so this applies to too many things so again if not decentralized why behind decentralization there's always also the secondary privacy so if you build decentralized systems you have to wonder about privacy as well and it's uh and this is where it becomes very difficult because if you want decentralized and extremely private then it becomes extremely technical uh and uh and sometimes you have to sacrifice a little bit of privacy if you want to have decentralization that is very easy to use um so that's one thing for sure and uh and so when you build a company I think you need to put it in your mission in a way so either you're trying to build a decentral on a decentralized system and for decentralization or you're trying to build something that is centralized but you know I think it's uh it's hard to try and do the two at the same time because even philosophically it's not you know you're not trying to achieve the same uh and uh I think what we're seeing in the industry is disparating between like Easy Tech and hard tech Easy Tech always wins at the beginning in an industry uh which is why today before we see that I wouldn't I would I would argue that very most assets are centralized on exchanges for example uh that are you know sort of central value propositions and because decentralization is really hard deck to make something that is decentralized as easy to use as something that has been centralized and designed for convenience is very very difficult but hopefully you know hard tech wins in the end it was not always the case I mean the web was very decentralized at the beginning sort of probably less today and you have big nodes on the web you know Google and and and big companies like this that you know that capture most of the most of the usage if uh crypto currencies and sort of blockchain Technologies go this way and you end up with very easy to use very convenient centralized entities I think crypto fails and so if not decentralized why and so we're working hard other companies are working hard in terms of providing tools infrastructure and products for to be able to have a real decentralized life but also usability because I think you know it shouldn't be a philosophical issue it should be a pure product issue you know what does decentralization bring to you once you have your private Keys what can you do that is better that you cannot do with uh with your bank or with a centralized entity and I think there are use cases that you can see today that are in my opinion super interesting and that are sort of real life usage we are at Ledger we are very and so I finished with this just by giving an example and so to illustrate what I mean I think Digital Arts uh and art Associated to an nft is one of the real killer apps that you that we can see right now the the way I got convinced is just to uh visit an art gallery and nft art gallery actually I visited a bunch now but when you visit an nft art gallery you can really see why like you know why decentralization matter why crypto matter and why it's better than what we had before and so therefore if you have that use case then decentralization wins and so then it becomes a question of like how can you purchase the art like how can you scan it how can you bring it to you Etc but you know if you had if you bought Digital Arts in the Years 2000 and you see digital art today enhanced by blockchain technology and nft you can see that you can see the future you have a view for the future and then you understand the centralization you understand the product you understand why so that would be my answer okay gentlemen a round of prickly pears Matthew I've heard of you I've seen you in the space for quite some time I have not heard very much about the block is that by Design or is that something you guys are working on uh yeah I mean we're always working on a variety of different projects we started out doing a lot of infrastructure so building like fidelities first Bitcoin wallet sticking with Visa it's a lot of hard infrastructure stuff nodes Etc and then expressed uh other things further in defy with a yield product called Vesper a synthetics product called metronome and we have a great team of developers that um in this space the best developers don't want to go work for another company they want to build their own kind of Kingdoms and so we've created these conditions where we're able to spin out other uh companies as well uh last year we spent out of gaming studio uh called Atmos uh which is uh doing comics and nfts and games so kind of like a Marvel 2.0 uh so we really uh are pretty Innovative and then we also look at uh some really hard tech and and I I think over the next couple months you'll hear more uh about uh uh kind of a magnum opus that we're working on that's a it's a new blockchain so I I've Heard lots of about the block over the years there you hear it from Joe himself okay Joe you next so metamask has remained relatively static for quite a long time it's by far the most used wallet in crypto like with without a doubt um do you think in the current state that it is in it is ready to usher in the next generation of cryptocurrency users and and are there things that you think you would like to add to it to get it to that place what a great prompt that is thank you so so it hasn't actually remained uh incredibly static we've done a lot of user interface uh tweaks and rehauls uh overhauls over the years um we have uh been laboring behind the scenes which you referred to on building um a sort of sandbox security infrastructure based on um something technical called object capabilities architecture uh that enables us to to turn it into a platform essentially enables us to open it up to the world of developers they can build uh different kinds of functional features that can be loaded at runtime into metamask and so 34 of these are now available in a few different categories we've got other categories coming online different functionalities like identity and um there's a a revolution blossoming in the in the metamask space and uh so it's uh it's all about permissionless Innovation leading to decentralization and metamask is no longer really under our control we we provide the platform but it is now offered to the world to build on James when you look at the at least original OG crypto Vision or ethos in many senses Google is an antithesis of that and if cryptocurrencies or web3 as a technology grow enormously they may erode at Google's supremacy of the internet is that a concern is that something that you guys think about when you help further web3 no um from from my perspective uh within Google Cloud we're about serving our customers and our customers are asking us to help them on this journey so we're going to go where our customers want us to be right and so that's an important position that we don't think these things are mutually exclusive as I was saying in response to sort of some of Joe's points I think will live in a Continuum of of web 2 or traditional uh internet as we know it today through to a more decentralized world where these things can coexist and um I would say that when we talk to our customers most of them do not have a particular political agenda around the philosophy of complete decentralization that matters but it's not the be-all and end all to to a range of Enterprise organizations and whilst that's critical to this um space continuing to grow it's a it's a core tenant to it I think that from very very various Vantage points that can matter to different degrees and so making sure that we respect all those views and try and provide a set of capabilities that can meet in the middle I feel that we're offering a really important um service and you know I I think we're going to continue to see this evolve so uh no it doesn't doesn't concern me Pascal is a long time Ledger user recently you guys had to deal with a lot of social pressure I guess that occurred after this announcement of the new firmware update that allowed for what people speculated as a sort of back door into Ledger I know you guys restated but I would love to hear from you sort of what happened what the vision was for that product and where that stands now so I don't know if you guys noticed but Tristan always makes me go last every question and now he asked me the toughest question of all you know it's because we're both called Pascal so can't go easy on him exactly he's a second name his middle name is that's why it's so tough on me um look the world of crypto is a world that is super emotional um and uh to give you an analogy when there is football or soccer World Cup in France we are 67 million to think that suddenly we are the French soccer coach or French football coach and we analyze every decision that the coach makes and of course we disagree and we would have made something different so this is sort of what happens on Twitter and Twitter is not exactly real life so it always looks sort of more than what he really is but on Twitter uh you know Ledger always tries to innovate and if you it's true that if you do nothing if you don't bring new product new services to Market if you do nothing um you know nobody criticize you but yet you do nothing if you try to do something and it happens to sort of all of us on stage you know I know that metamask is often also Under Fire and pressure every time they change the world somewhere Etc you know people freak out um because you you try to do things so you impact people's life and you know I think it's a testimony uh to how Technologies and products like you know sort of Ledger metamask Etc are important to people and people worry a lot because it is their money it is their lifestyle Etc and so we understand that uh and uh we feel sort of humbled by that and also responsible but also we are Security Experts and so far people trusted Ledger because we are Security Experts and so far Ledger has never lost a sense never mismanaged money and the security that we put around our users is the best in the space and so our philosophy is to never compromise on security in the sense that we rather be slow than to move fast and break things you know move fast and break things is a Silicon Valley Moto that applied very nicely to to web2 it's not very good when it comes to crypto because you don't want to break things not all companies thinks like us by the way you know a lot of companies move fast break things and you know we've seen what happened in 22. you know it's a it's a factor of life this is how you you can decide to run your business the way you want move fast break things sure but now in crypto and non-in security so when at Ledger we think about security we think about zero compromise on security and whatever product we release today in the future in 10 years Etc the compromise and security is zero because this is um a reputation that is in line and this is a trust that you can have into the product I think when we release a new product and what we misjudged on this one actually it's not that we misjudged it is that we talked a lot about Ledger recovery before in the Press Etc I mean you can Google you can go online you'll see that we refer to that product a lot and to what the product was going to do I presented it in conferences like this like I'm speaking to you now we never had like a negative feedback we never had anyone complain we never even had like anyone raising the sort of points that were raised in Twitter so quite frankly a I was disappointed I was just like I wish I had like sort of more feedback and also we thought that people wouldn't care as much but what happened and what triggered emotion is we released uh operating system notes before we could release the product and talk about the product and explain what he was doing and so people feel sort of Trapped into a system and you know feel like sort of con Etc and so it was miscommunication that was the mistake that we've done it was a mistake and you know it's something that we'll try not to do again but fundamentally uh it doesn't change what Ledger is it doesn't change how we build products and this product is perfectly secure I'm not going to go in the details of this here because you know security is is a very complex matter we've actually published so many things between you know that uh PR crisis and now in terms of how the product is designed architecture Etc we are actually going to release the product soon we've open sourced it because one of the good feedback from the community was how do we know that there is no back door how do we know what you're doing Etc well to a certain extent you always have to to trust that you know I'm not a backdoor guy but uh We've designed the technology and we designed everything so so he can't be backdoored but also to open source and we have communicated on the open source roadmap of ledger to make more of what we do open source allows for the community to verify and I think it was one of the big asks and this is this is what we did since we've been releasing new notes and since we've been talking about the products more and more honestly you know I think the feedback that we got also from people that were very emotional at the time is that now they understand and now it's okay Etc and a lot of feedback that I'm getting and why we design the product is because we were being asked a lot to deliver a product like this you have to understand that you know we're talking about scalability infrastructure and decentralization so in the different things that I say if not decentralized then why if not secure and easy to use it's not going to work and so in terms of ease of use if we all collectively think that this will scale if you keep your 24 words or 12 words on a piece of paper okay that's wrong like this will never scale the way that we use crypto today is the same way that people were using the internet in 95. you need to be an engineer you need to know how to code your computer like you know it was it was very difficult who was using the internet in 95 okay so not many people in the room so for those that were not in internet in 95 it was hard to use right now you got your iPhone and you know it feels like magic almost but in 95 it was not the case it was so hard to use and you know I'm turning to people that are more technical someone like Joe is like what what is he talking about like you know if you're good with your computer of course you can you can make it work but for regular people in Mass adoption is very hard to use and so if we think that the next billion users is gonna he's gonna come and use this in a decentralized way and keep the 24 words somewhere that's not possible so you need to find solution to solve for that pinpoint it's not just us working on this there are many other companies that are trying to do it in a different way Etc but the 24 word problem or the the entropy problem is the real problem for scalability of the industry and we're trying to solve it one way again I will reinstate that it is optional nothing can happen on your device if you don't trigger it in a sense that the technology is designed so only you can control something so there is no back door that we can put in the device there is no central control of Ledger on the 6.

5 million devices that we saw on the planet this is part of the how we build security you cannot hack ledger to hack Ledger and the entirety of the hardware wallet that we've sold you would have to I don't know what you have to do but first you would have to collect the 6.5 million devices with a 6.5 million people and torture them so they can give you their pin code that's you know that's what you have to do so it's uh it's not possible and just on the torture stuff like you know this never happens like you know you are working every day in the street with credit cards with a pin number you know how many times have you been attacked and tortured to give up your PIN number you know that's uh those attacks are very unlikely so when we think about security when we think about crypto there is a lot of emotion and so that's okay and when you come to uh to rationalize everything I think that the best thing to do is to try it out it's coming out in a few weeks and when it will be out I think that whatever tension is left will disappear and what we say because we stand for freedom is if you don't like it don't use it and if you think that it's a risk for you you know you don't also have to use Ledger I mean I'm very uh I think we think always customer first and customer first all the way to you know if you don't think it's right for you you know we we understand and uh we appreciated your business and also we start to see you leave but but usually when you do that often you come back because we're gonna make it so much better so much easy to use and we're going to help you be decentralized secure and connected so you know hopefully you like the products that we design and you come back to us just after we launched Ledger recover we're gonna launch stacks and the combination of Ledger recover and stacks that your Stacks is actually a way to really solve the onboarding problem into self-custody yeah I totally agree that 12 24 seed phrases will not be the way that we bring on the next generation of users thank you for clarifying that the final question with the time that we have remaining so perhaps quickly and we can start with you this time Pascal is what in your opinion is the hardest problem that remains unsolved in crypto right now well I think it's you know uh 24 words we just we just talked about it but if you think about it like you know this leads to inheritance like you know you're decentralized you own your keys like how do you pass it on to in an easy way to like for me to my son for example or to my family um there are still many things to to fix in terms of governance because security is not just security of the private key it's also the security of the governors you know if you're drunk uh past uh 2 A.M in the morning should you have access to all of your funds and make transactions uh can you put a governance rule on top of your own coin so you know you make it a bit more difficult for you at that time I mean it's a bit of a stretch example but but um but you see what I mean in terms of governance so there are basic features that are not completely completely solved and also that don't exist for web 2 I mean you know typically I try to close my Facebook account uh recently it's very hard to make it very very hard and everything that I post in on Facebook is sort of theirs and for me to retrieve it you know they make it a such a cumbersome process so there are things like this where I think web3 or crypto or decentralization is bringing tools and technology that will allow for people to really own what is theirs and to make it easy to transfer to their next of kin thank you James three quick thoughts I think we need much higher TPS from a technical standpoint but I think the question in itself is is one from a technical standpoint I think we actually need real world business problems that have a double spend problem that needed trustless information this network and user experience thank you Joe so the next major unlock in the decentralized protocol space is identity attestations and reputation the hardest problem facing crypto going forward is how the complementary nature of decentralized protocols will enable us as a species to to shape artificial intelligence it's a necessary complement very interesting yeah I'd love to hear more about that sometime Matthew yeah I love the identity piece and uh Pascal on the uh The Ledger piece uh I think it's good to have choices on uh how humans interact with this stuff and we're always trying to get the perfect system but we got to get better systems uh because back in the early days of crypto was like managing a wallet was like filleting your own Blowfish it was like really really hard sometimes but uh my uh um answer is probably regulation I think there's uh we're going through a pretty seismic shift right now uh with what happened with FTX and this is like happens in every industry this is an industrial organization where you have Innovation you know thank you Satoshi entrepreneurship Capital formation all this stuff until you have FTX moment and Regulators come in uh right now it's a little uninspired in terms of the regular regulation by enforcement and not really having a clear uh perspective but uh if you look at anything else like Pharma oil and gas railroads Etc you have uh an event and then after the event you have some clarity and I think in the next you know year or two worst case we'll have some clarity out the other end and that'll help with capital formation and kind of get a lot of the regulatory Arbitrage friction of people flying to other jurisdictions to build and take a lot of that out of the way so we could really get back to work thank you it's been an honor to be a moderator to these Titans of Industry thank you all to the listeners have a good rest of your day