DeFi Titans: The Path to Resurgence - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

perhaps we can start off with a round of introductions myself uh my name is min I'm the managing partner of etheral Ventures we're a global early stage crypto investment firm founded by former consensus Investment Partners and turn it over Stan St to kick us off uh hey I'm Stanis I'm the founder of aara and at aara we have multiple products so at aabs we we built the a protocol uh which is the biggest lending protocol with 17 billion worth of uh net deposits at the moment and deployed across uh 12 different networks and now also working on uh non evm uh deployments and then we also have other products that are uh lens which is social networking and family uh the wallet that brings more people into the uh space and super excited to be here with amongst all of these ogs all right I'm run co-founder of Sky formerly known as maker so yeah maker is now Sky uh best and easiest place to get rewarded for saving and tonight 900 p.m. uh the maker protocol upgrades to the sky protocol so and this is you know this is the world's largest decentralized stable coin so this is probably one of the biggest things to ever happen in in the history of defi um and it's going live 9:00 p.m. tonight you can access it on sky.

money and all the other front ends that integrate the sky protocol and what it means is you'll be able to upgrade your die stable coin to the new usds stable coin and your mkr to the sky governance token at a ratio of one mkr to 24,000 Sky um yeah it's super exciting I'm really excited to be here with you guys um and uh also for in a little bit I have another uh surprise feature announcement to make this morning what does sigh holders get is there a special deal for sigh holders you still got some sigh we got a very good conversion ratio to um so I'm Kane uh I founded synthetics uh which is a derivatives platform um in uh in 2018 and I'm now working on infinite which is uh basically a front end for all of the D5 protocols that you know and loves so um my uh I guess my goal with infinex has been to take every uh D5 protocol that has been built over the last five six years and make it much more accessible to a wider audience that is more used to web 2 or CFI um so that you know we can really show off this amazing technology that we' built fantastic so we have have a packed room and it's rare that we have three defi Giga brains together so if anyone has questions we will be reserving about five minutes or so for Q&A um just to get us started so pretty quiet summer I think there's a lot of you know Catalyst coming up in the fall with um the US elections uh you know stonnie has been tweeting about a defi Renaissance so I'm curious what you guys are looking for in the next couple months for the rest of the year in terms of the market and how's this cycle different from the others so I think that um what what I what I think of when you know Stan is talking about def5 Renaissance uh I think of it as like there's a you know it's a it's a defi inflection point that is is coming and um I think the thing that really defines it is that the industry is realizing we need to make defi easy to use it already works it's already great now we need to sort of level it up uh prove Pro to the world that has become more mature and yeah the other week or two weeks ago in Korea me and Stan we announced the U Sky arit Force which is one of these attempts to sort of show that there are things in the industry in defi that um you know are just ready for broad adoption making it easy to use I think it's all there the market is is ready for this uh and um yeah we got to make it easy use we got to bring it to the people yeah I think you know my my take on this is that uh the the infrastructure that we've built over the last um you know even two to three years uh in this cycle um is so incredible you know the things that are available today uh that make access to Dei um so much easier um you know there were things that we hadn't even sort of contemplated um we've got l2s that are scaling you know we've got uh just I I guess all of these different tools that that are available to us but they haven't been put together and so the the goal of infinex was basically to take things like a things like Sky things like synthetics and make them uh much easier to use um to abstract away chain complexity to abstract away gas to abstract away you know all of these different things um and make sure that this amazing Tech that we built gets usage right like we've we've kind of Tapped Out the Enthusiast audience that's willing to get their hands dirty and you know work out uh browser wallets and you know do all of this kind of weird stuff you know you look at curve for example right like there's only a certain type of dgen that's willing to like you know jump on a Windows 95 interface and like understand how that works um we need to we need to bridge the gap and and get closer to the CFI uh user experience that that we have and so um you know that's that's my goal at the moment yeah and I would say that's um kind of like the um the idea of the defy Renaissance is a little bit kind of A New Perspective into Define and what what we all uh build here so far so um and defi is a space we see like incredible amount of uh Innovation and arguably also product Market fit so things that actually work on chain um is decentral finance and what I kind of see what what is happening now as well is that we see a lot of fundamentals uh in the space and what I mean by fundamentals is that we first time ever actually have now um essentially decentralized Financial infrastructure that is uh available to to to anyone um it's it's resilient and and the the last point is that it's it's also um it's more it's also profitable so we have these decentralized organizations like like for example sky and and and synthetics and and and and avidal where um these are open communities where uh people make decision decisions choices and and actually these public goods make revenue and that revenue is then streamlined back to the to the users in terms of different types of uh rewards and uh to grow and expand these these public goods uh more further and I think this is a really fascinating uh phenomena to to follow and build upon because defi is not about just creating uh Financial opportunities that are based on distribution of of governance power or like you know Community membership but it's it's about actually creating something really valuable that can be applicable to every single person in the planet and and and and we see defy now and and so in the past like I started um a in the very early days as a more of like a hobby project that evolved and I was still in the university and it evolved something that actually became uh very valuable after going back and forth and iterating the product but now like my mindset is is is more about how this whole stack could be available to everyone and what are the incentives that actually then drive people to use defi the same way they are using like the internet today without carrying that underlying infrastructure so I think we can actually build the biggest businesses on D finance that are completely governed by by its users and I I think that's the the kind of like a def def uh Renaissance uh I'm seeing now and obviously New Opportunities because it kind of uh brings defi to the surface again and things that are happening now bringing these Financial opportunities um is is is part of it definitely and you know speaking of inflection points Let's Zone in on your individual projects what's top of mind for you guys now what's next on your project road maps and I know you can wax poetic about this so let let's try to keep it to a minute each all right um so tonight 900 p.m. uh Sky protocol is launching you can go to sky. money and uh start upgrading your die to usds upgrade your mkr to Sky one to 24,000 uh it's designed to be really easy and simple use and get the benefits of defi but it's not just about being easy to use it's also about having some really interesting features that will engage people and get more people into defi as we're talking about so with Sky the core feature is native token rewards built into the sky protocol that you can get with your usds right so more than just a savings rate you can get actual tokens that you care about right projects that you think have some kind of interesting future you can get those tokens just by holding usds and using a sky protocol and sky. money or other friends so initially uh the first token that launches tonight 900 p.

m. you can start getting as native token rewards is the sky governance token itself um and in addition to that the uh special surprise is uh 900 p.m. tonight as well you'll also be able to get the chronicle token as points on skyed money and so Chronicle uh is the original Oracle uh the the Oracle was built seven years ago when the maker protocol launched uh and no other oracles existed and it's had a track record of keeping the entire maker protocol safe and basically running uninterrupted for seven years uh and with the spin-off to Chronicle um and with the the introduction of the chronicle token and chronical points I'm super excited that sky is able to be the exclusive place where users can get a piece of this really really interesting uh longstanding Oracle protocol that is leveling up the standards of of Oracle and innovating in areas like rwas um and just bring the benefits of defi to the people sky. money 900 p.

m. tonight and you can get it where's the after party it's on top of the marina base it's G to happen live 9:00 P p.m I think uh asking any of the three of us to keep an answer to one minute is is a bit futile unfortunately run did two token launches so you have to do three on this yeah I know I know it's tough um so so we actually also are doing a token uh launch we have uh the launch of our Patron nft um the the point of the the way that we're launching this token um you know I said that we've Tapped Out the Enthusiast Market um and I think that that is true so we need the Enthusiast to be advocates for people who are living in CI today you know there's a lot of people in crypto who are mainly you know uh okx or binance users they spend most of their time in people's databases places we want to bring those people on chain um but they need uh you know informed enthusiasts to kind of help advocate for why they should come onto a new platform uh like infinex and so we're doing uh this Patron sale um which uh ends on the 24th so next week um and today we're opening it up to a much wider group of people so you'll be able to uh connect uh your Twitter account and see whether or not um you can access the patron nft um on a side so um obviously our main focus now is um keeping building like first of all like keeping a um as a protocol safe and secure um yeah and and and basically eventually we think that this is an infrastructure and and and all of this kind of like what I call like big defy energy so all of these OG protocols um sky and and synthetics and and and a like keeping it as safe as possible and and scalable and Innovation is very core piece of what we are doing at a and um now we're focusing on the a V4 um and which is going to be more efficient um infrastructure for all types of um lending and borrowing and and the reason to actually make more efficient infrastructure is that the whole landing and borrowing landscape will change a little bit well not change but it will expand so there's going to be different types of value coming on chain from rwas to all different kinds of U uh inititive initiatives and we want to prepare a to be a uh backbone of all of that type of lending and borrowing so um I think vitalic recently um was kind of like talking about U Defi and and and and The Innovation there and and and there's a lot of uh circle circle movements within defi um but what I believe is that defi actually can be used to extend all credits uh in in in the world and to explain a little bit that I think we have a little bit like a misconception of the idea of a collateral because collateral is essentially a promise to return something or a promise to um promise of future value to repay obligations so what I think in in the future is that um credit as it exists today U uh can be extended the same way um anywhere in the world um the same way as banks are giving loans or the same way as uh we have lenders um credit facilitation that can all happen exactly as it it is and the form of tokenization we get all of that value on Shain and then that's usable for example as a collateral inav to extend more credit in terms of uh stable coins um and and and actually grow these uh markets and and create an actual transparent ecosystem around the existing Financial infrastructure I I think that's the the the the the big Focus point for us on on the Innovation side and obviously Now with uh the maker sky rebranding um and the the conversion of D to usds uh another interesting initiative is is on the market side is that usds is going to be listed in um in a and and that provides all kinds of interesting uh opportunities with with uh incentives as well and with this whole initiative and and infinex going to provide a lot of actually accessibility down the line the idea is to grow the whole defi Pi so defi is still relatively small um and it's amazing to see so many early adopters here and Enthusiast but the the the the the the big picture is to actually get everything into mainstream whether it's institution Road or the more like a user experience Road and that's what we're excited about and last thing I can mention about what we're focusing on is to also create different kinds of use cases with with new markets um that can be adopted uh for um particular use cases so a is known for having like a very big liquidity pool and we realize that there's also different kinds of use cases for um tokenizing real world assets and using them as a clad and creating new markets um in in parallel so those are interesting points and obviously go is one big thing uh as well for us to grow down the line and provide more rate stability for uh for the users that are borrowing at at a and same from from USD S as well yes and pulling a bit more on that thread of uh broader market adoption um Kane I'm curious about synthetics and how you guys are approaching sort of broader market adoption for Defi and your role in it uh particularly you've been talking quite a bit about infinex um how does this play a role in the broader synthetics and defi ecosystem yeah I mean the Genesis for infinex was the fact that we had built synthetics and we you know iterated for years and we' finally got to this model um which was like late 22 that we we deployed it um where we had a delta neutral uh Perpetual Market that was fully on chain um and you know there was a long time where people said that was not possible you couldn't even build it you couldn't design a system like that and we had designed it and built it it was deployed it had been working for like six months and I sort of looked around and I was like this doesn't make sense that we've built something that's so useful and yet it's not actually being used you know the volume that we were doing was like tens of millions a day and then you look at you know a tier three uh CI exchange and they're doing you know billion dollars a day right um and so it kind of forced me to really rethink some of the things that I guess as a defi founder I had believed um about you know how adoption was going to work what users cared about um and you know some of the things that that I think that uh I sort of had to let go of um was this idea of that you know you know non-custodial uh platforms were going to have an advantage um you know from a consumer perspective over custodial platforms and you know post FTX I think that that if there ever was a glimmer of hope that that might be true it was dead right everyone went from FTX straight back to buy bid or binance or or whatever um and you know there was there was very little you know there wasn't like a mass Exodus from CFI into defi right um and so you know that that really forced me to to think about um you know how we could take these protocols that we' built and make them accessible to people who were living on centralized exchanges and and you felt comfortable there um and so that was the Genesis of infinex and you know we've gotten to a point now where you can get on boarded you know I did a demo for someone yesterday and I got to the end and they were like cool when is this going live and I'm like no no this is live and I think that they were kind of scops into not believing that it was real because there was no signing there's no gas there was no weird you know stuff you just clicked a couple of buttons and did a bridge uh you know um on on arbitrum and it looked almost too easy to to not be real um but that's what we have in CI CI you just click a couple of buttons and a thing happens and you know you that's the Baseline expectation from users so we need to get to that point in in defi where we can actually match the CI user experience 100% I think bringing more people from CFI to D and making it cheap convenient you know easy is super important and moving on to you Stan so you know the VAR ecosystem is super vibrant the Dow's very active um I saw that you guys are now moving to Aptos as your first non- evm deployment could you walk us through some of that rationale um and how do you sort of think the evm dominance so to speak will continue Factor going forward yeah I kind of um I mean I've I've been building on on ethereum in in basically evm for since since um early days of of of of a and it land and um that's been like a the whole developer experience has just become more and more amazing over time so if if you go years uh back in time obviously there's there's a lot of um lot of kind of like obstacles and and it's it's becoming more better so as a overall uh the evm EOS system today is is really appealing uh to to innovate to to build defi to build any type of uh smart contracts and and and and having like a really good set of uh tooling and that is basically possible because in the ethereum ecosystem there's such amazing developer community over the years and you know some people are more vocal on online and kind of like talking about it but like there's there's more developers there actually than than anywhere else that care about the the ecosystem and they're more kind of like uh in the background because they they've been doing this for years so the the whole ecosystem in in evm is is is quite amazing and for us obviously like the way we think about um of a as a infrastructure or even just like a market is um and and a product is is we want to go where the users are so um we try to actually uh utilize Technologies uh to the extent that there is an opportunity so if there is a community that is growing and there's some Innovation on the infrastructure and it creates new opportun is uh for us um for in terms of um market adoption and new users uh that is very appealing and also if we can see new types of use cases being built uh with a and empowering new audiences lower transaction cost uh higher frequency those things are super appealing to to our community and I do think that um uh like that being said it's it is always something that we have to build from scratch so the the the value of evm is that you can take that piece of software and copy it anywhere that that where there's a an evm on on L2 and that is really powerful because you can expand to markets and use cases or specialized kind of like al2s uh really really easily and when you come to non evm you have to write the whole code base from scratch and we take security uh and very seriously in in the sense that we will have to put a lot of time and effort so that's where kind of like the the um the the challenge is but we've think that optos is um a very interesting move for us because it's a growing ecosystem it's focusing on high frequency um it's also focusing on financial use cases that are very close to let's say the traditional Financial um markets basically stock markets and and and so forth so that's why it brings uh exciting opportunities for us so I think we will see a pretty much anywhere where there's significant amount of users to expand uh the protocol um uh and the brand but I do think that I also kind of like want to end the whole like um little bit like the tribalism between Technologies because there's no developer out there that is basically saying like hey you know you should build on iws or hey you should build on like Google cloud like like okayy you're like you're done because you're building all this other stuff like nobody really cares they care about the pricing they the efficiency um and then providing that utility for the users and and obviously up time ethereum has amazing up time and a lot of these uh upcoming uh networks have provide provided like a lot of utility so we have to put all that tribalism honestly into the side and just build where the users are what the users want what do they care about and what brings them value that is what really uh cares and and what actually Kane said is interesting is that you know it it's it's all about getting people out of these databases and centralized exchanges and getting them actually into a decentralized environment where you control the keys and and you know we've we we' saw FTX we're going to see again another exchange going to blow up at any point so it's a question of time so if if you're using centralized exchanges or centralized providers it's actually time to rethink and and and think how you can participate and that's why also we need this Innovation and and better experience to make it make it easier so so um and and I think that's why we are here definitely I think it's important to meet users where they are and run so you know Sky which I'm still getting used to lots of news um you know I think with the Rebrand and the re architecture um there's a lot going on so maybe like walk us through where you guys are in terms of the implementation of the endgame plan and like what's coming up for the next you know 12 24 months for you yeah so first and foremost is the upgrade to the sky protocol tonight 9:00 p.m um best and easiest place to get rewarded for saving with dii and you can access it on sky. money and a bunch of other front ends starting 9:00 p.

m. tonight uh and you can upgrade your die to usds and get native token rewards including Sky tokens and the chronical points just for holding usds again this is going live at 900 p.m. I know it's been a long time coming so it sounds a little strange that now it's actually happening but it's it's it's already here uh and uh I think it's a really huge deal um that uh you know we're able to take a protocol as old and you know the world's largest decentralized stable coin uh and transform it into something that is more accessible and that's just designed to be available to use for people that you know you don't have to be some kind of Super Genius to use this you just go to scy of money or another friend end upgrade your die to usds or acquire usds one to one with usdc and then click the button for what token reward you want uh another thing is I mean I think what really helps also showcase how uh sky is just meant to be more accessible and more for regular people is the redenomination of the token right so mkr is one of the biggest uh defi tokens it has a you know has a it's it's a top uh I guess top 60 uh token currently um but the mkr token has always been very expensive you know it's like uh more than $1,000 to buy one token with Sky it's red denominating one to 24,000 so what that means is anyone you know you can go and here's a protocol with $300 million in Revenue uh $75 million in profits per year right the world's largest decentralized stable coin and now it's going to be possible to buy to get into this and and and buy a token of this for six cents so it's like a different level of accessibility uh and of course for us defi artists we just think in terms of numbers and ratios and whatever but for a normal person is like if you tell them to that this something costs $1,000 that's not going to feel very appealing if it's like you can just lock up your usds all you have to do is hold your usds in the sky protocol and you'll be getting like a lot of these six cent tokens you know every single uh ethereum block I guess uh you get that just for holding usds and that means now you get to be a part of this you get to be a part of Defi and and own a piece of the protocols that you think have a future um that's the kind of stuff that I I mean that's that's what's going to bring defi to the mass market and what sky is going to do from here is just continue to build on that so like further out I mean I know this is an eternity in crypto you know two months or so two three months the spark token will launch which is the first star which is a whole other concept of how sky is sort of subdividing itself into multiable parallelized ecosystems with different Focus areas and then each of these stars that launches formerly known as subow where Spark is the first one each of them has their own tokens and they will also be available uh almost entirely exclusively through the native token rewards uh in the sky protocol that you'll be able to get easy to use un skyed money I just realized we we launched yesterday uh the preseason of this trading card game um in infinex and we have D in there so we're going to have to redo the art for uh usds so thanks for that I'm sure our uh designers are going to be very appreciative of the launch yeah I mean everyone go check it out later today lots to upgrade so um you know you guys as ogs you've been doing this building in D5 for what seven eight years now very different market conditions right like I I look back at some of your market caps like over the last couple years and you know when it was it used to be the norm that you would launch at about you know a few tens of millions FTV now we see billion dollar token launches out of the gate almost when that doesn't happen the project is a bit of a disappointment like I'm just curious what you guys think of this trend is it good is it bad is it sustainable do Market expectation of like high fdv tokens yeah it's it's really uh it's really kind of like a sad from the perspective that we have this this model of like kind of like a high fdv low circulation um coins uh because essentially the whole point of the the the space and the the part of like the the capital allocation and funding new ideas and projects is is the accessibility like we're we basically have the most accessible infrastructure now available so like it's you know there's we can eliminate all kinds of single point of failures and middleman and you can like the way Capital markets or let's say um Capital locations work is that you know the the the kind of like the best investors or the the the right investor should find the right you know teams and Founders and and and that should happen like in in some sort of like a really efficient price Discovery and and I just don't think that's happening now and and I actually think that the the good old days of icos um is much much was much much better model because essentially that brought the accessibility for for a lot of users who believed in the technology um and obviously during that time like if you didn't do your research research properly obviously there's all kind all kinds of um side effects and scams and and whatnot but fundamentally it provided that direct access to to to finding and founding uh Founders across globally because our space is global it's not really Centric to specific locations and most of the team are are remote um as well and and coming together globally so that being said I I think there is a a kind of like opportunity to to create a a much better model um out there that actually provides the accessibility have some sort of safeguards and I do think that the The Venture Capital side is is very important in the space and and I never want to say that uh it isn't useful because a lot of this Innovation that is happening has been founded and and seated by by venture capital and they create a lot of content and do research so it's just finding like right balance where you know people can participate and and find these interesting projects and and and and see them um as as well and I I think everyone is now trying to experiment something I actually curious uh K to hear your perspective because you're you're experiencing experience ing now with with with your sale yeah I mean it's it's tough right because if you look at the current meta if you execute this meta perfectly you end up in a situation where you have you know a low float token um which you know into your point is probably a two three four five billion doll fdv um and it's almost guaranteed to be unsustainable right even if the token uh and the project can eventually grow into that fdv it's going to take years you know our projects have been around for a very long time to get to a point where it's believable that you know they they have Lindy that you know they they will work and it took a lot of iteration to get to that point right you know they didn't immediately work um and scale you know we had to we had to do many different things right s to die to you know so it's it's hard to see how a new project today that executes the current meta perfectly um doesn't end up in a situation where uh you know basically everyone's disadvantaged right um and that's that's challenging but then the flip side of that is okay what do we do about it um because if you try and break the meta and you try and do something differently then it's incredibly hard to actually get uh you know people to to engage with a project right and you know if it weren't for the fact that I am who I am trying to do what we're doing with the patron sale where it's an nft and you know there there's all of these weird convoluted um you know rules and and games maybe not as uh as you know um complex necessarily as sky and the splitting out but like it's even that like we're talking about very complex um things it's hard for for a first-time founder to turn up and be like here's what I'm doing you know I was I was talking to a VC yesterday who was like if anyone else turned up and and was pitching me this I wouldn't even take the meeting like it's just nonsense right like I'm sorry you're not rebuilding binance on chain I don't know what this nft thing is like so it's very hard for someone new to the space or a first-time founder to turn up and break that meta um and I think that that's why it's beholding on us you know people who've been around for a long time who've seen the better games that we had in the earlier part of uh you know defi uh to try and bring back the good elements of that right support the good elements of of that kind of capital formation and try and shift the meadow away from this because the the current system is is definitely broken and we need to try and fix it yeah I think um as basically the point both of you made that actually uh low float High fdv sucks for everyone it's not great uh and it's my it's like very shortsighted and again this is what we represent here is like there's real value There's real long-term value in this space you don't have to kind of try to extract a bunch of value up front uh and you don't want to like it's not even nobody even gains from not even the people doing it if you just extrav a little bit little bit into the future it's clear that because there is real potential There's real value creation There's real product Market fit there's things like Pro you know this little thing knows profits uh that means that you don't have to care so much about the token price what you have to care about is how do you create value for your users for your community for the contributors and um having a token that only goes down is not really going to help with that so I actually think it's much better to be in that position of like being fairly valued uh and then just don't focus on getting the price to go up focus on making it easy to use and get the benefit for the for the users like when that's the case then actually you kind of want your token price to be low you want it to be easy to access you want to build uh you know your loyal community that uh that feels like they're part of something that's growing that's working for them that are not like hostages to the project and uh I mean I think yeah you look at synthetics and a and uh maker uh and and all achieve this and with sky this is like really what we're doubling down on like how do you sort of weaponize this concept of tokens as something that brings people in that aligns them and actually turns the community into something that helps spread the product and so the product itself all it has to do is be easy to use deliver clear value and You' got this uh sort of decentralized group of people that's going to help spread it and grow it and control it over time I mean yeah like if you if you look at maker right there's a long long period where mkr was like only for like eth ogs right they were the only ones who could afford it because you know it was such an expensive token and even though we know that doesn't make any sense you can buy a fraction of mkr it still makes it less accessible right it makes the community um you know smaller and and less diverse and so you know by by tweaking things and changing the rules you bring a whole bunch of new people into the space that maybe wouldn't have engaged with the project otherwise right like that's why you know I think things like what you got you've done with Sky are so important well I think all of you have built amazing Comm communities and the dedication to accessibility and usability is really evident here so any potential D5 Founders in the audience do take note um now we're mostly out of time but I did promise Q&A so if there are any questions in the audience at all I think we have time for one yes [Music] no okay I'll keep can I ask a question to the audience like how many of you are using defi that's really that's a lot pretty good that's not bad yeah congrats everyone yeah how many of you are going to get Sky token rewards 900 p.m.

tonight great well okay final question then everyone loves a predict or something controversial spicy that you know people don't really think is like sort of non-consensus so let's end on that note like I'd love to hear your prediction on either where will end the year or will happen next year or just something contrarian yeah I think uh for me this year is really felt like 2019 it's it's felt like that kind of head fake Market where you know you can't convince me that this is a bare market like I just don't I don't buy it um you know if this is the new bare Market Market it's a very different situation to what you know 2018 was for example that was uh that was a very different um different environment and so my view is that we will uh get some you know activity that that will start to generate attention and and awareness uh early next year um and that I think that you know that will be kind of the the kickoff point for uh the cycle to to kind of uh you know ramp up again yeah I think uh what's coming with all of these initiatives to make defi easier to use uh it's gonna really start to pay off over the next year I mean it's for us for for for Sky it's initially just going to get over the barrier of like makers now sky that seems kind of strange uh why is it happening but you'll see things like I mean usds you know it's objectively it's a better it's a better way to Brand a stable coin and get more people into Define get native token rewards on their assets which is something exclusively possible with Defi and then from there you're sort of in already you're comfortable you can start exploring all protocols other other things that that that you can do in Defi and this is kind of how every single di5 project play plays off each other right it's one uh you know it's one big box of Legos being put together in different ways they all fit together they all synergize in various ways and all the big protocols has sort of found different Niche areas that they specialize in right so there's like big stable coin that's Sky big Bor land that's and now there's infinex which is the binance for defi I mean I'm super excited for that can't wait to have usds uh Native token rewards in there it's going to be a big driver of users I think yeah I I think um it's going to take off you know defi is going to be the central thing in crypto no more meme coins and all that stuff stealing our Thunder we're done with it it's going to be D5 from now on yeah yeah and I would add that I would say that end of 20 end of 2025 we'll have one trillion words of value in in Def with with with tvl and rwas and and I also think that with all these tools that we're we're building there's going to be um actually like more and more people are using like normal people and and I mean we see it happening already uh quite a lot it's it's just basically we're in the inflection point of having mainstream tools to build to to everyone and um I think this space is going to grow and we're gonna get more and more people and and Builders to actually innovate on top of the all the infrastructure amazing well I could go on asking you guys questions for a while longer but we are out of time thank you Keane run stanie for an amazing way to start the day and thank you everyone for being such a wonderful audience I hope you have a great 2049