DeFi and Institutions - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2022

all right hello everyone good morning thank you for having us at one of the greatest events in Asia token 2049 it has always been my dream to come to a futuristic Singapore so I'm here today with the wonderful speakers and true experts in the field so the topic of our panel is defy and institutions you will learn a lot of insights firsthand so stay tuned and let's begin with a round of introductions maybe we'll start with you Sergey yeah hi everyone um my name is Sergey I'm co-founder of one inch Network um one inch network is uh is kind of a set of protocols uh if you're a huge contributor team right now around more than 120 people um yeah to my person um I'm a software engineer for like 17 years and right now very active in a one-inch Network we are building the future of uh digitalized finances uh yeah it's a I'm a seed I'm asleep I'm a managing partner at dragonfly which is a global crypto investment firm hello everyone my name is Chen I'm the chief operating officer at bitco bitco is one of the world's oldest and most trusted crypto service providers in existence we've been around since 2013 so almost 10 years in this space we do programmatic wallets we do real real qualified custody that's insured by various Regulators around the world and we have a PB Prime brokerage on top as well we serve four major segments institutions like Banks and other large investment vehicles trying to come into this space large large platform technology companies that want to add Bitcoin and ethereum to their Network we serve L1 blockchains love the foundations out there and of course governments as well we work with various government agencies in the United States and various governments around the world unlocking crypto for their citizens foreign so I lead Chronos chain Chronos is a layer one chain so it's a top 10 chain and from a technical standpoint it is the first ethereum compatible chain built on the cosmos SDK from an ecosystem standpoint it is a chain that has a close partnership with crypto.com and it's 50 million users and it's positioned as the Gateway for crypto.com users to migrate to self-custody defy and nfts hey everyone my name is Brian Gallagher I'm one of the co-founders of partesia blockchain partesia itself has been around since 2008 building commercial enterprise software specializing in advanced cryptography Solutions um you know we decided we're going to build a layer one in 2018 so we've been developing it for the last four years and we're trying to solve the blockchain trilemma so for scalability we have sharding a fully complete sharding we use MPC technology for more secure interoperability as well as privacy preserving smart contracts on chain so we're launching probably around q1 on the exchanges but where our mainnet is currently live and we're onboarding big projects we'll announce our huge uh first big partner tomorrow thank you so much to everyone for introduction some really old products here so Defy is relatively new as we all know it has been growing at a very rapid pace and for the last year we've seen over 1 000 tvl increase we also saw the arrival of the large players into the industry and also products that now focus on institutional adoptions such as the Arctic compound treasury I also know one inch has announced the one inch pro product also recently ethereum has transitioned to the proof of stake the shedding environmental critics and opening gates to further scalability at the same time our industry has experienced a lot of bankruptcies multiple hacks the tornado cache Saga and some regulatory developments with the latest action against the Dow so let's try to break at least some of those things down and start on a lighter note and talk about the merge what do you think like how the merge and it's impacted the institutional adoption of crypto and D5 specifically I would like maybe to start uh so I see the merch is a good step forward uh to to John board's uh more uh institutionals in terms of we agree now so um we have still this uh old Bitcoin and uh which consumes a lot of electricity and it's not healthy for for us for children and uh yeah vitalik in the whole whole ethereum team did the right step it took a long time to do that but everyone should understand it's it's very important to to do it uh right the kind of the right Manner and we're highly secured that nothing can go wrong here um and uh yeah this is this is a good good step forward uh of course uh it needs to be improved regarding uh discolability uh so we need higher throughput um but we have of course Layer Two Solutions which can be used right now and uh if you will come to to the point uh we are we will see a lot of kind of uh throughput um assume we are we are ready look from an r d perspective this was one of the most impressive Feats of engineering I think in the history of crypto it was really really hard to pull off um congratulations to the ethereum core devs congratulations to all the engineering teams across all the service providers in the space at bitco we're the backbone to hundreds upon hundreds of Brands 170 plus exchanges around the world use our Tech we have to have zero downtime going into the merge right and it was it was well done it's the blueprints for ethereum and this network upgrade should be looked at very carefully and and you know mimicked for other blockchains that that need to do something like something similar in the future yeah I I agree the technology is incredible but the um it's kind of a huge hit for decentralization and that's uh I wouldn't agree we should debate this I mean it's very easy to single out a few entities on the regulatory side and do something about it and cause a bit of a disruption I mean they could just back off the market and leave the note operations uh which I guess would be fine but regardless it's just a bit concerning that it happens so fast and all of a sudden the network is you know three entities controlling over 50 percent of the private keys to notes I I would like to add so before uh the merge we had like maybe five mining pools and they actually controlled everything and they started with the math and offered the opportunity to to do the flashlights like flash um flash transactions uh and sandwich attacks um and yeah it's it's not right now it's better because like Lido for example they don't have more than 30 percentages they try to stay under 30 percentages and uh it's now better than before if someone is doing like very bad right now they get slashed they they will lose ethereum and before minus would maybe went to another would maybe go to another mining pool yeah and that's all and right now they will get like yeah kind of assistant so a better way to say it is maybe it exposes the problems that already existed so look I think where we have 99 problems to solve uh this was one all right so um proof of work was a problem was a blockchain for adoption from an environment standpoint and it was also a blocker for adoption in terms of ethereum doubters saying hey those guys will never I get their act together so they've been proven wrong it's one problem to go then when it comes to adoption we have lots and lots of other problems to solve to study Prime brokerage best execution liquidity pools uh Inc you know um you know inflow of bucket makers and so I think we just need to collectively work on those other problems now and things will never be perfect but yeah it's just great that we solve one problem look in the eyes of the US SEC and eyes of Gary um he has stated on record that proof of stake looks more we're closer to an investment contract therefore more potentially inching towards the a would-be security then proof of work the transition happened and and now we're in this we're in this world other things that has happened the more recent enforcement action that the SEC issued against this 2018 SC uh Ico I think on page 69 um there's this blurb that basically calls out the the SEC because most of the ethereum nodes operate in the United States the ussdc has jurisdiction over the entire entire ethereum network basically trading activities doing anything on ethereum constitutes doing activities on a U.S Securities Exchange so they're stating these things in these enforcement letters and you know the combination of things that has happened I don't know it it it I think puts a bit of a dampening effect on um institutions and ethereum specifically well I mean to be clear that was while ethereum was a proof of work blockchain so they're making that argument in the proof of work world in the proof of stake world that argument maybe is even more defensible because of the fact that it's your point there the number of blocks are you know vast majority of blocks are basically being prepared by coinbase four or five parties right exactly now that being said all that being said I think looking seriously at this thing like Gensler I think that I think the the genser comment was was pretty grossly misinterpreted he was mostly talking about staking services like coinbase like sticking through coinbase right that does look like a security because you're trusting another party to do staking for you um for the most part I think it's pretty clear he's not trying to go after ethereum um and to your point okay yeah ethereum has uh some you know there's maybe more centralization we might want in the distribution of stake at the end of the day institutions do not give a about that that's not what they care about what they care about is that Bitcoin bad you know approval work is bad externalities are bad now ethereum is ESG that's good institutions move slowly like I know a lot of these people I talk to a lot of these people regularly um they don't go out and start you know just Mass buying ethereum the moment that the merge turns on but it does mean that next time they want to buy something in crypto they can buy ethereum according to their ESG mandates they can't buy Bitcoin right it's literally if you have an ESG mandate you can't touch a lot of this stuff so I think that does move the word world materially forward and in the long run it's going to be good for institutional adoption but right now at the present moment just macro being what it is a lot of Institutions and just the fact that you know the Terra collapse and all the stuff that three arrows it it is rubbed institutions the wrong way and I think we need a little bit of the the wounds to heal before we see institutions start to dig in again and start to get more involved institutions also want someone to be able to blame so it you could make a bullish argument that when they see like coinbase publicly traded company operating a majority of the nodes that may make them feel a bit more secure having like value locked on the Chain so there is that side of the argument as well very good summary I think we've all had enough of the merge uh thank you um let's move on and there was another notable development in the industry uh NASDAQ moving in with the offering uh custody for Bitcoin and ethereum what do you make of it and are there any other positive Trends you are seeing on Wall Streets that are perhaps signaling that institutions are not afraid of the bear Market I can start yes thanks love NASDAQ look it's it's good to see like really really top brands in Trad fi moving into the space um supporting this asset class but when it comes to like how much will NASDAQ actually move needle in terms of institutional adoption or in terms of overall adoption look let's see when Fidelity entered a space a couple years back there were some some people out there thinking that oh wow Fidelity is here they're gonna just come in just clean house suck all the air out of the room and and really really move the needle I'm a Fidelity brokerage user myself I've been refreshing that homepage for the last what three four years where is my Bitcoin still not there yet so let's see what happens um in terms of overall industry uh uh over on this Enterprise side of the world not not not tradify over on the Fortune 500 side of the world we're seeing interesting things happen right like Disney Mickey Mouse is in the nft space Starbucks has arrived Nike oh man how many Nike fans are out there has arrived there the Loyalty systems the engagement platforms nfts this is a this is a new space this is very very interesting they're spending resources and and I'm actually pretty bullish on these Fortune 500 brands basically pushing crypto to their massive user base and and I let's let's see what happens on that front very bullish on that side so I I'm actually going to take the opposite side of this so um I think it's I'm not it's not that I'm bearish about institutions coming in but is that I think um institutions coming into crypto is the symptom not the cause by which I mean when crypto starts winning and crypto really starts changing things and kind of entering into the collective psyche what you always see when you ever see any kind of really big technological shift is you see the Old Guard the old institutions being like oh we need a strategy for this so it's like when the when the internet really started taking off a lot of these older institutions were like we need an internet strategy and the internet strategy is we're gonna put you know some we're gonna put you know JP Morgan's gonna put a site on the internet and if if you were so inclined you might think that like wow Time Magazine is going on the internet now the internet's a real thing and the reality was that Time Magazine didn't matter after the internet the internet changed What mattered because of the shift in the underlying technology and the same thing feels true to me for crypto it's not that the NASDAQ or naisy or whatever embracing crypto is what's going to make crypto successful is that that's a sign that crypto succeeded but crypto is going to embrace its own logic of this technology and most likely most of the time when this kind of thing happens it's through disruption of the incumbents not the incumbents taking their businesses and putting them onto the new technology I suspect that's also what happens here maybe for the benefit of the audience it's also important to define the institutions right so in our world you have crypto funds uh they are crypto native uh and there are institutions and they have institutional needs uh however they are very much part and parcel of how D5 has been built over the last couple of years then you have stratify and then you have like consumer consumer goods companies and and media companies um I think what we're seeing is that uh it's really the crypto funds who are leading the way and uh shaping the ecosystem in terms of their needs their needs for tooling their needs for reporting and in the end what happened is that stratify companies are looking at how much money those guys are making and simply want to follow because they see the profit pools there so I think the real um the you know what is really positive for the ecosystem is crypto funds crypto native funds coming in and having uh increasingly robust and sophisticated operations a large part of that is true is due to the all the talents and the brain power that has migrated from hedge funds uh to crypto funds last year and those guys with algo trading and risk management practices that come from hedge funds are helping to shave shape the environment and the tooling and we're all benefiting from that so I think those guys are really at the Forefront and are the best leading indicators that I I can think we can see in terms of institutional adoption I would like to add um I agree to haship uh it's gonna be a like the technology will over take uh the current uh traditional financial instruments like in terms of NASDAQ at school that they introduce like custodian service but they will have more and more like uh products uh in introducing and into our own ecosystem but I see that maybe maybe there's uh it's a room for a digital license type for example yeah it would make everything more efficient because right now it's it's it's very difficult um for example to write an aggregator for stock exchanges yeah this is almost not not uh not possible I would say but if you build on default technology built on event compatible chains or use ethereum um then you you're able to build highly efficient Financial products yeah and this this is the future from my point of view something not efficient can can stay for a long time it will be replaced with uh more efficient technology and this is the defy and then if like a smart contract uh ecosystem so to underline the the kernel of what I'm talking about here it's like there's a saying I can't remember who said this but it's something like it's very hard to get a business to understand something when their bottom line depends on it not coming true and I think so much of the foundation of crypto and D5 is a very different foundational assumption from what you see in most traditional Finance most traditional Finance the model is that you are default closed that your default closed Source your default close to Integrations like if you want to if you want to interact with me you need to get a license you need to go through this you know very long-winded process uh and if you don't have that then screw you and D5 is the exact opposite from the very Foundation the the Assumption behind D5 is that everything is open anyone can integrate with anything all the code is there for anyone to see and when you build an ecosystem on those principles it results in much more creativity but also a very different approach to monetization to patents to intellectual property like almost everything about D5 starts from a different base layer of assumptions which is why when you have something like you know traditional financial institution looking at D5 they're like okay there's some kind of cool things here but we gotta you know we can't really we can't actually do it like this because it's gonna it's gonna mess everything up and that's why I say that I think in the long run they're two very incompatible visions of what the future of Finance is going to look like it looks more like open source software development than it looks like traditional closed institutions yeah yeah they're completely incompatible because the custody will lead to trading which leads to complex Financial products like derivatives options and the Integrity of Bitcoin with the 21 million coin Supply is highly jeopardized when you have derivative and options markets trading on Wall Street because the paper trading of non-physical Bitcoin will be hyper leveraged um and you know at any time there could be a hundred million a billion Bitcoins actually being traded you know without having to move the real coins and so um that could tame volatility because you would have more efficient markets like trading much tighter spreads um but the Integrity of the whole fixed money supply uh kind of is highly jeopardized and uh to haseeb's point um Defy is transparency everything's happening on chain um the existing system is doing naked Short Selling of options on shares that don't exist and there's really no audits or way to dig into that unless you rely on the regulator who fails over and over again so realistically they need to fix their own problems before they think they can come and fix the defy and the different systems we're building that create transparency so that we can have automated systems that are anyone can see it reduces fraud yeah that's my take well I wanna I wanna this is a very yeah I don't know oh man look for those NASDAQ folks out there we welcome you into the space holy cow glad you're here uh let's work together to to make this entire ecosystem girl they're gonna do it regardless like they're gonna make their own products it's not like you can tell them please don't do it right it's just something that needs to be we need to talk about it more we need to monitor it we need to see how it progresses and have a say in the system because well I I just I find the perspective you're taking so if I can summarize you're basically saying that uh people basically taking an unbridled approach to financial Innovation is bad they shouldn't do it they should only trade spot is that basically what you're saying no no because market efficiency is you know is highly increased with these different products I'm just saying the office are bad I mean no but like you you look at for example the way that like the Game Stop situation blew up in the face of the people selling the options and they were able to just pause and say hey don't let them buy anymore because if it goes up at another 100 the whole system falls apart because they all go bankrupt and now they can't make good on their other options they've sold for unrelated stocks and then there's basically one Clearing House the dtcc who's the only one who can actually see you know how many shares are owed to the other people put it all on the blockchain you know that then we're taught now we're talking because you can actually see did they sell shares they borrowed that exist or did they go beyond the threshold that's allowed no one can audit that except for one agency and they don't provide any visibility so when they tell us hey you know you need to do this or that and be more transparent it we need it as an industry in my opinion take this strong stance that they need to start using the blockchains to create more transparency over their systems that they're running on behalf of us there's they're working for us the regulator that's that's their role is to protect us so let's as an industry push them to use blockchains to create more transparency because settlement networks everything we're talking about here if it's all on chain and transparent then it's great because the products do what they're intended to do but when it's centralized in one agency as oversight we saw it happen in like the whole economy almost Unwound from Gamestop people think it was just this meme stock and a couple hedge funds went broke it almost got way worse than that that's why they pulled the buy button because if it would have gone up another 100 200 percent those 15 20 billion dollars of exposure would have been a hundred billion 150 billion and then the options traders who sold those options would be bankrupt they couldn't make good on other options they sold to other people and and so then that's a whole new rabbit hole of Market making and the you know that we could go way down yeah I mean so taking taking a step back I think that we all like looking at defy we know that defy requires uh retail investors on one end of the marketplace and uh institutional liquidity providers on the other end right that's that's the only way that it works um your question was like are we seeing you know positive signs in terms of institutional adoption let's let's face it right today um institutional volumes are down trading activity is down and in a way it's an opportunity you know as many have said before it's an opportunity for all of us to get our systems right uh to build the tools that they need so that when they come back they come back in conditions that are um robust and are going to be positive for the whole ecosystem as opposed to what happened during the last bull run where I think a lot of Institutions or Central you know hybrids of you know cd5 companies how to cut Corners just because they had to keep up with the market uh so I think right now uh adoption is down and that's a good thing and we're focusing on building thank you Ken uh let's move on and say if you had to persuade a major institution to step into crypto what arguments would you use and how would that be different from what you'd say a year ago maybe we'll start with you again Ken yeah sure so I think uh first of as an institution you want to make money you want a profit pool and the profit pool comes from having lots of counterparties that are not as sophisticated as you are I.E consumers so the big difference today in crypto is that you have overall 350 million people around the world who own some crypto and out of them probably 30 to 50 million who are already practitioners of self-custody and are interacting directly with D5 protocols so that's an order of magnitude more than a year or 18 months ago and uh if you're an institution that's a very rich Reservoir like profit Reservoir profitable that's a very rich profit opportunity if you are able to deploy uh trading Algos and Arbitrage strategies across markets so really that that's the fundamental um appeal of this Market it's the richness and depth of the retail Market that we have today and that's why at Chronos we partnered with crypto.

com uh because we saw this influx of new web3 users as the next opportunity for our industry um look the core arguments still remain the same for Bitcoin and ethereum Bitcoin is the hardest money in existence ethereum with the proof of stake migration uh now share some of the same qualities uh and it's programmable which is very very interesting and useful the the the changes to messaging um look to quote buff it people should be very very fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful right if there was a moment in time to do some allocation to get prepared to get off a zero as a family office as an Institutional Investor this is that time um furthermore in terms of um what's happening around the world for all the the U.S citizens out there um it's this is an amazing time for the US dollar like depending on which country you go to everything is 10 to 50 off seriously the US dollar is amazingly strong right now and if you were to look at the BTC or eth2 a basket of non-us Fiat if you look at that trading pair the two currencies are two cryptocurrencies are doing pretty well in fact I think yesterday if you look at the BTC to British pound trading volume there was like a 10x increase for whatever reason so folks around the world are noticing this this this weirdness that's happening around the world when it comes to foreign Fiat and they're they're flocking to safety and the safety is BTC and ethereum I I would like to add um I would say to the institutions remove the inefficiency this is humans and use programming on money and interfaces to to interact with uh with money yeah and financial products any more Arguments for institutions we do we do work with ngos and so one use case that we have that we're announcing soon is a private smart contract that hosts a stable coin that is used to deliver economic aid in the form of QR codes and the argument was really simple it was hey when you give out cash which is what they do they go into crisis zones and hand out actual cash you know what happens to the cash and they say about 80 percent goes unaccounted for so I mean 80 cents on the dollar they can kind of confirm is lost or not going towards the cause and when you sell them and say look put it in a private smart contract so your beneficiaries privacy is still protected they're not going to be people can't follow the money around um and but you can have auditability over the smart contract and see where all the money goes after you deliver it in QR codes maybe you increase efficiency from losing 80 cents in the dollar to like none because you at least know what can somewhat track it and then work with local vendors on the ground to see if like the stores are accepting it or adopting it so um I think it's kind of just looking at the the true value proposition of cryptocurrency and applying it to use cases that are broken so that's also in the last question why I alluded to I would like to see us as an industry take a stronger reverse approach towards the regulator and say hey why don't you work with us to use blockchain technology to increase efficiency in your systems and create more trust and transparency with our community and all of the consumers that you are working to protect and so that's that's kind of the the Baseline way we sell our technology in the blockchain is just identify where they're not efficient where they're losing money and how more transparency and trustful systems can solve solve it at a more tactical level I also want to point out how game how much of a game changer uh the the evolution of our industry towards proof of stake has been all right so um staking and staking as a service is really the ideal way for many stratify and more conservative institutions to get into defy not only because the underlying mechanics are easy to understand but also because nowadays with figment with block demon with others there are true Enterprise Grace providers of sticking as a service products who are able to deal with the needs and requirements of large companies and so yeah as you know again at a very at a very tactical level I think that uh you know the fact that every almost every blockchain now is the proof of stake that is going to help tremendously uh with institutional adoption and is a great way to get into to get into it thank you Ken a pretty solid arguments right so if there are no more let's touch upon the traps do you believe the Celsius and yng bankruptcies strengthen the case for D5 what is your opinion of it and maybe hasi yeah so um it's funny because after the collapse of Celsius you saw a lot of incredibly bad takes especially from the media talking about how oh this means that crypto is terrible and this is like an indictment of the whole decentralized Enterprise what of course like Celsius um we we talk about we call Celsius A lender um but it's kind of a euphemism like they're not actually A lender right like what Celsius was doing was they were taking money from retail and they were going on chain and doing like crazy d-gen that like you know like my cousin does like that's what Celsius was doing so Celsius was like basically it was basically an unregulated hedge fund and this unregulated hedge fund blew up like my cousin did um and so it's it's like okay yeah of course like yeah if you do that things are gonna go badly um and whereas almost everything in D5 if you look at like compound and maker doubt and one inch and uniswap and dydx all these things worked beautifully and the reason why they work beautifully the reason why there were no bankruptcies or no you know underwater debts or any of that stuff was because in these things there is no human in the loop there is no human discretion right you guys remember uh earlier in the year there was this big fight between FTX and uh and the cftc and FTX was arguing it's like hey you know we have this like automatic liquidation engine that we all use in crypto 24 7 and it automatically deleverages people when they're you know they don't have enough margin ratio and the the you know the people on behalf of the traditional exchanges were like wait wait no you can't do that I was like why why can't we do that we can't do that because what if somebody doesn't have time to post collateral and they're going to get liquidated then markets are going to get hurt and the guys that just happened to Nickel if you guys remember there was this big thing where nickel there was some guy there's some like Chinese Factory owner who like owned a bunch of nickel he was like guys I can't post collateral right now like great we're just gonna turn off the market for four days until you figure out a post margin and we nobody had nickel prices and so the reality is like yes sometimes you can use your discretion and maybe you get the right answer saying oh let's back off let's not look at this guy and sometimes you turn off the market for four days because you messed up and the the reality is what crypto says and it's not always the right answer the criticus is that we're never going to use human discretion we're never going to say ah you know what I think this guy will probably pay us back we're going to say every single time we liquidate you and so if you don't post margin you're going to get liquidated end of story no no conversation and that that decision sometimes means that there's less Credit in crypto sometimes means that it's more constrained than other markets but it means that it never breaks because crypto doesn't have a Fed we don't have anybody to come in and save us we don't have a Sam in defy right like in the regular world we have Sam but not in not in D5 and so D5 has to stand on its own and that's why I think um D5 has really shown us something over the last six months that C5 wasn't able to show us I'll take slightly the other side look bitco supports both defy apps and C5 apps so I'm not taking sides but um in terms of the beauty of D5 yes like it removes All Humans from the equation it's math and there's a beauty to that however when it comes back to institutions and institutional adoption look the institutions are not used to this concept the institutions want that extra 30 minutes right can you wait the institutions want to pick up a phone and call somebody and have somebody answer on the other side Robert nestler is not going to answer the compound hotline because there is no compound hotline um but going to C5 crypto specifically I think within C5 crypto it's still here to stay like coinbase is not going to go anywhere Genesis is not going to go anywhere Gemini is not going to go anywhere I think there's things that we can do uh some elements of traffic that we can bring over to C5 crypto to help protect customers to make this thing a little bit more safe and that's the separation of some of these responsibilities right a custodian does its thing an exchange does its thing there's clear separation of Duties between these two types of companies instead of having all your eggs in one basket within a single C5 entity that acts like your cousin do we we are things that that people just don't know don't know about yeah it's an excellent point so I think in the end like removing human intervention is great but codes break also sometimes as we have seen during the last 12 months that's true so I think really the overriding um theme is transparency so if you're natively defy transparency is mostly available through the code being open source and verifiable by anyone and you know the role of whistleblowers and security analysts however I think there is still um progress to be made in that respect not every up and coming startup has their smart contracts verified on the Block Explorer many of the bridges are still closed Source or keep the code very close to the chest because they are afraid that someone is going to replicate their technology so I think transparency is what we we must strive for and is what is ultimately what guarantees Security in the D5 world and then in the C5 World transparency is achieved through disclosures and relationship with Regulators we know that's coming and ultimately that's how those organizations are going to be relied upon when we can't check their books I would like to add so the problem for the institutions is uh the most of them can't actually use defy so because like I don't know hex happening and uh hackers put liquidity into a unit swap or whatever they can't exchange the money because it's dirty mining so we need we need uh compliant uh kind of regulated environment I call it of course this is yeah this is kind of a trade-off yeah so if you have regular permission pulls yeah I would say permission environment not just permission environments because Defy is not just amms like liquidity post or something um D5 is aggregators for example yeah execute uh yeah highly efficient the trades among a lot of uh liquidity sources in the markets at the same time but it's not possible in traditional Finance yeah for example for stock I already said in the beginning for a stock trading so it's it's not possible to just go through multiple markets exchange Tesla stock against US Dollars Singapore dollar euros and in one single transaction yeah highly secured so you BBC already good approaches like binance for for example and to use nfts so if you pass kyc so you get nft maybe projects can work with that uh via on one inch we see that we need environment the whole environment so everyone can deploy in this environment for example curve can come Unison can come deploy we will deploy and uh and we would like to see that everyone like all the institutions all the banks who for example need to buy ethereum they would use such a kind of environment to to do it instead of just working with a lot of Brokers trusting someone having this inefficiency of humans I would say and risk also to humans because like do you guys really see permission pools taking off because I never quite figured out right if I'm an Institutional Trader I want to trade with retail I don't want to trade with people who are as sophisticated as I am it's a step in the right direction but the traction is not there yeah it's it's there's permission environments but then they also need privacy so um they you know institutions wouldn't really want everyone to know what types of settlements they're making with other institutions so that's sort of our thesis and where we focus there but super bullish on permission environments especially when they have privacy but it's not saying oh it's going to happen tomorrow it's just that's what it's going to take to get there um there's a couple of projects swarm for example from Germany they are buffing regulated so I had to like two weeks ago talk with them uh not very nice to see they did really great job really like long uh work uh what they delivered uh to be regulated by biofin this German regulator is very strict and actually they have they have already kind of uni swap YouTube deployment under permission environment but yeah this this uh no node option right now but I see a good opportunity uh very soon to have uh kind of a set of multiple protocols maybe also Farms why not yeah we can also introduce it and institutions can execute trade with other institutions why not uh because like you know someone like market makers offered to sell ethereum and a bank need to to buy for own customers like as a gatekeeper ethereum for stable talk and why not uh it's more efficient than everything else we have also always is Pro in us so there are also very well regulated and also plan to offer such an environment so we need just to put everything together from our point of view and push all together forward the jurisdiction management is Big too so we built a feature that basically allows smart contract developers to point at certain nodes because we we make each node register jurisdiction because we kind of foresee that uh especially institutions they can't as you mentioned Sergey they can't mix their transactions into an unknown block that may have some illicit funds that flow through the same block it could cause them a big issue so I think that's something that will see a trend as well as like jurisdiction management of blockchain applications so it's something to to think about when you're building and also keep an eye out for I see we have uh to nine eight seven seconds left I'm sure it was very fruitful discussion let's give one round Applause to our speakers and um thank you