BitcoinFi on Solana: Building the Next Frontier of Onchain Liquidity - TOKEN2049 Dubai 2025

Well, hello everybody. My name is William Riley. Work with Chainlink Labs as head of Web3 sales and strategy. And I'm very excited to be discussing BTC Fi on Solana with a star-studded cast today. And with that, we'll just go down the line with intros.

Thomas? Yeah, hi. I'm Thomas, co-founder of Kamino, lending market on Solana. About half a billion dollars or half a billion dollars or so Hey everyone. My name is Jacob Phillips, one of the co-founders of Lombard.

Lombard is the leading Bitcoin LST, and you can think of us more fundamentally as a Bitcoin bridge that bridges Bitcoin into new ecosystems. So, you know, Ethereum, Sui, soon to be Solana. Lombard has about just shy of $2 billion in TVL and is integrated within most of the major DeFi protocols you can think of in Ethereum, Ave, EtherFi, Fluid, stuff like that. Mhm. Hello everyone.

This is Ryan Chow. I'm the founder of Sol Protocol, and we have been dedicated on Sol for over 4 and 1/2 years. So, it's been a very long journey. In terms of Sol Protocol, it's a we build a institutional infrastructure for Bitcoin finance in terms of like yield generating, lending, and some other stuff like but related to financial service on Bitcoin. Fantastic.

Thanks for being here, guys. Um just to kind of set some perspective on what is Bitcoin Fi or BTC Fi. Ultimately, you know, Bitcoin is the behemoth of the crypto world in terms of liquidity and value that is stored within it. Well, all of that to say is Bitcoin, the vast majority of it actually does not get put into play or into use in what we know as DeFi. So, this is a tremendous amount of liquidity and value that sits idly by and sidelined.

Um so, with that, enter Bitcoin Fi where it actually obtains utility by going to various blockchains, Solana in specific, and is used for a number of things. And that's what these fine folks are working on here today. Um, now guys, panel, let's let's open this up. What is Bitcoin Fi to you and ultimately why is it gaining momentum? Thomas?

Yeah, sure. Well, I think Bitcoin is undoubtedly the king and one of the best financial innovations ever created and I think any way to unlock more of its capacity to be used in in these different economic environments is something which you know, makes sense and we should definitely strive to do. Camino is a credit marketplace basically also taps into one of the most fundamental parts of economics as well, which is is credit. And having Bitcoin be further enabled within the world of credit with more interesting use cases that are powered by this different technology that these guys are building, I think makes it very interesting. And yeah, basically the more Bitcoin the better, I think.

Awesome. You know, William, the way you framed it as Bitcoin Fi I think is kind of interesting. Out of habit, I almost exclusively refer to it as Bitcoin DeFi, but more fundamentally if we walk back like what Bitcoin finance has been since the dawn of time, Bitcoin finance traditionally was centralized exchanges. This is where you traded, you used stuff like BlockFi and Celsius to lend and borrow Bitcoin. So, you know, Bitcoin Fi only existed on centralized rails and only as of recently coming up in the past like, you know, maybe 18 months did we really see significant traction in on-chain Bitcoin finance, which is where, you know, Lombard and Solv spend spend most of our time.

And, you know, the whole idea of like Bitcoin Fi I think is a little bit of a nuanced term in itself because, you know, what it really is is just DeFi with another asset. And one of the things that we've been sort of preaching since the you know, inception of Lombard was that you don't need to rebuild an entire new financial ecosystem just for Bitcoin. We've already built all of these primitives in the ETH and Solana ecosystem. We can just plug in, you know, a new asset as an ERC-20 or an SPL. Um so, uh we can reuse all these existing infrastructure that we have on and off chain for this new asset.

It's just a more of a matter of giving it the sort of uh the the the praise and the um uh the attention that Bitcoin should have had as the core collateral of ND5 the whole time. Yeah. Um I I agree with it. So, I think like previously most most of the people would deem um Bitcoin as a like passive store of value. But now more and more people would try to make it as a like programmable, compliant, and globally access accessible kind of financial assets.

I mean, a lot I feel of Bitcoin. So, I mean, like currently Bitcoin finance uh from my perspective, um there are two things. One is the CeFi Bitcoin finance. So, a lot of like Bitcoin ETF, they try to wrap Bitcoin into a Bitcoin ETF. Actually, that's a Bitcoin finance.

Cuz after after doing that, they can like bring BDC ETF to bank for lending, for a lot of stuff. So, that's a kind of like financial service uh on Bitcoin. And then the second thing is DeFi. Like it's all about composability, like just like um Jacob uh mentioned about um and and also like Camino um and Lombard. So, also for Solv, we try to like integrate with all those of lending, all those of DEX, and try to make Bitcoin as a very kind of uh programmable assets.

Uh it's all about composability. So, yeah, I think this is something that really we can see two um power that really drive um like the the growth of the Bitcoin finance. One is the CeFi, the other one is DeFi. Excellent. Um you know, BTCFi, Bitcoin Fi, it seems to be quite prevalent or I guess matured in the EVM ecosystem.

However, you know, let's zone in and focus on Solana. You know, we do have Camino, the largest lending and borrowing market on Solana with us here today, Thomas. Um with that in mind, you know, Jacob, I would like to get your opinion on what does BTC Fi look like as an opportunity within Solana? Yeah. I think it goes back to the core of what the chain is optimized for.

So, my my assumption is that we will see Bitcoin evolve into like slightly different ecosystems for ETH and Solana. ETH might be more BTC as collateral as where Solana might be more on-chain trading, payments, faster stuff. You know, things that are optimized for a very fast chain. In this case, like you know, uh through LSTs and other forms of Bitcoin tokens that have gotten a lot of adoption within the ecosystem, we've seen the use case of Bitcoin as collateral used for borrow and used as collateral for for, you know, trading options or perps. What we haven't seen pick up is like on-chain BTC spot volume.

Or it's a little bit there, but certainly not at the scale we would expect it to be. The most significant use case for Bitcoin anywhere in finance, traditional or DeFi, is is is trading. I mean, this is what all centralized exchanges are built upon. Bitcoin BTC trading pairs, BTC perps. And yet, almost none of this has come on chain and it seems like such an obvious opportunity that somebody's going to crack eventually.

And frankly, I think all, you know, most of the ultimate borrow demand for for Bitcoin and all of the yield in the ecosystem sort of comes back to this fundamental truth that there's like really deep on-chain liquidity. Solana, I think is going to be the first to crack that. Amazing. Yeah, very very unique ecosystem and built for different things. Um has different edges over in Solana.

With that in mind, Thomas and Camino, you know, you've you've really developed Camino to become the home of deep and long-term liquidity on Solana. So, how are you positioning Camino to be the foundational layer with Bitcoin uh into your space? Yeah, I think for the last two or so years we've been building and operating Camino. Uh a lot of it has revolved around the economic activity uh that sort of has pre-existed on on Solana for a long time around the assets in Solana. And a lot of these, you know, vanilla assets have been the um where a lot of the limit has been until now.

I think we have V2 launching um next week or up soon. Uh and that will enable us to scale in in a number of different ways and look at a whole bunch of different novel assets that come uh on chain uh that go beyond just what you see in normal spot market. So, the tokenization of everything, including yield strategies and, you know, Bitcoin yield um to be used as collateral to power different kind of trading um strategies and and just more advanced collateral management I think is going to be uh really interesting and I think Solana can operate in in every way that any other network could as a as a base for sustainable, reliable um collateral, um but also as a way to scale and empower a whole bunch of other financial use cases which you just can't do on a on a chain that doesn't scale. Uh and so I think with Camino being well positioned um to to facilitate all of this economic activity um and, you know, with the help of uh people like Chainlink as well to power a lot of this infrastructure, uh I think uh yeah, we're in a we're in a good position to see Solana take off and be the home for a lot of these novel assets. Yeah, fantastic.

With that in mind and, you know, looking at Solana giving this unique edge, you know, Ryan over at Solv, I'd like to understand, you know, you're bringing structured yield products to the Bitcoin Fi landscape. Um, how are you designing these products for this new class of on-chain capital? And also, how does Solana's infrastructure enable this in ways that other chains uh aren't today? Um, yes. Uh, I think as as like Jacob said, like Solana has a very thriving kind of ecosystem that has a lot of users, lot of traders um in the ecosystem, and very very high TPS um coming from Jump Crypto.

So, that's something um make like Jupiter and like Camino a lot of very good kind of projects um just um just happened now just like grow up on the like like in the in the in the like Solana ecosystem. So, that's why when we see like the Solana ecosystem, we will we try to find out all originate a high-quality yield-bearing kind of Bitcoin products in Solana ecosystem. And then we find out like uh why not to build a like delta-neutral strategy on Jupiter. And that products we got over 1,000 Bitcoin stake into into it. That uh it seems that it like because of like the very um I mean like very um thriving kind of ecosystem for like Jupiter as well, then um it could really generate a sustainable and very juicy yield um from this ecosystem.

And then that's something uh make us realize that DeFi is more for Bitcoin finance is more like a use case and more like a yield source. And TradFi is more like a capital supply end that more and more institutions they would try to participate uh participate into like Bitcoin finance, they would deploy um their money capital into Bitcoin and try to like find out some use case on their Bitcoin. And then DeFi, especially Solana ecosystem, would be the very good kind of target of uh kind of choice for them. So, that's how we like build uh like institutional infrastructure um between DeFi and CeFi, but both are for like Bitcoin finance. So, yeah, that's it.

Phenomenal use case, seriously. And very very unique to Solana as well. Jacob, over at Lombard, you know, you guys are unlocking, you know, the dormant amounts of Bitcoin and bringing it into the DeFi ecosystem. What's driving Bitcoin holders to do this? And where is that capital going to flow to?

Yeah. So, maybe I can start with what's driving it right now and what I think will drive it in the future. What's driving it right now is that there was this massive catalyst, this sort of exogenous incentive in the form of Bitcoin staking that caused a lot of Bitcoin to for the first time consider getting off ground zero, in this case, sitting in cold storage. So, because there is now this like self-custodial, very risk-minimized way to put your Bitcoin to work and earn a decent yield, a lot of people were interested in Bitcoin staking, then you know, realizing they didn't want to deal with a lockup, discovered liquid staking, which of course was popularized by Lido, and then had this great opportunity to put all this Bitcoin to work. So, staking was sort of the the gateway for us to onboard a couple billion dollars into into um into DeFi in existing ecosystems.

And you know, we've seen Bitcoin DeFi tried before. I mean, 2020 cycle, there was like a a big Bitcoin DeFi movement with Badger DAO and you know, wBTC gained popularity, but it never really gained enough attention. You know, we never got to critical mass. There were never DeFi protocols like existing big DeFi protocols that excited about about Bitcoin finance. Look at what happened this cycle.

Thanks to, you know, Lombard and Solv and and a couple other LSTs, you had Pendle shifting all of their focus to Bitcoin DeFi, EtherFi doing a big Bitcoin DeFi push, Morfo going big into Bitcoin DeFi. It was like all the top, you know, DeFi protocols, some of the biggest names in the space were realizing that there was this huge opportunity and and use this first opportunity to start onboarding this collateral. However, I think a lot of this is changing because now that the opportunity has been proven out and it is sort of beyond a reasonable doubt in everyone's mind that Bitcoin DFI is happening you know, for sure. Now we can start to focus on the real use cases, you know, payments, trading, using Bitcoin as Bitcoin, not just as a collateral asset some sort of you know, interesting risk return built on top, but now we can just use Bitcoin in DFI as Bitcoin. Mhm.

Phenomenal. Giving that extra utility to Bitcoin I think is is very important. Now I'd like to open this one up to everybody. Um, do you guys expect to see institutions get involved in Bitcoin DFI and and if so like what are they doing it today or what what is really going to be necessary to be put into place for them to be active participants? Um, yeah, maybe missed that.

Yeah, maybe stuff from me. So very interestingly like just yesterday we we just announced that our result bdc.com is one of the U bearing products just got like share share real compliance certificates in in in Middle East. So the reason why we do it is we realized that if we wanted like tap into all those of the sovereign wealth funds that they're they're over like five trillion dollars kind of kind of funds in in in in UAE that we think probably they will deploy the money into Bitcoins in the future. And then if we wanted like really tap into them like compliance is something that non-negotiable.

So that's why we we we we make that progress and this is I think just like I mentioned like the chair fire is more like a supply capital supply and to put the money into crypto especially stuff from Bitcoin first and then just like Jacob said that's all about utility on the Bitcoin and then the next step they will find out like they are still a lot of utilities and also I mean only on the on the other hand like utility will be another kind of drive will be a potential kind of demands to drive them to put their money or accelerate the whole program the whole process as well. Makes sense. Yeah, I think you'll see a lot of institutions get more and more comfortable with using Bitcoin defy as time goes on. I think a lot of the blockers for many institutions is around robust risk management and compliance and I think as you see these things start to get flushed out and and well organized it'll unlock a ton of institutional capital to flow into the space in general and the vast majority of Bitcoin is held by institutions or at least at institutional grade level and then the vast amount of institutions hold Bitcoin as their major asset when dealing with crypto. So there's a ton obviously huge market naturally there to approach and I think now the environment the sort of next stage of the cycle I guess that we're in I think you'll see a good unlock of this kind of stuff coming coming on chain and and figuring more interesting ways to use Bitcoin than just sitting on it.

Makes sense. Yeah, maybe I can try to explain this. I think if you're an institution right now looking at crypto looking to get involved you're looking at stable coins and Bitcoin and almost nothing else right platforms for using those two you need I I think you know it was pointed out here that you need certain infrastructure that I think hasn't always been there a lot of the Bitcoin primitives that are are widely distributed within the ecosystem are either still relatively new in the grand scheme of things or not fully using the requirements. So, you know, at Lombard, we initially built this this sort of trust minimize solution and are now realizing to serve the types of customers we want to, we're going to have, you know, need to integrate qualified custodians to be able to work with ETFs and big instos just to serve their regulatory requirements. And then, you know, the institutions are all excited about doing this.

They have a ton of you I mean I think every one of their clients is asking them about this. They're just trying to find the right ways to put it to work. Taking on DeFi risk is sometimes not something they're familiar with or not familiar with educating their customers on. So, I think we kind of have to meet institutions where they're at. And this this really means launching things that look a little bit more like a C C DeFi product or finding out what they're interested in, serving them some tokenized version of that off-chain yield, and then over time convincing them that's you know, there's much much more exciting things to do on chain.

Yeah, very good points and I would actually want to dive into infrastructure and security briefly. Um, you know, as BTC Fi Bitcoin Fi scales, you know, what what what roles does interoperability play in in real-time data play? And specifically, what choices have you guys made on these two sectors to, you know, increase your security in your product offerings? Um, yes, I think for us it's critical that all of this infrastructure and risk management rails work as flawlessly as possible at all times. And so, robustness and resilience around risk management allows for scale to happen.

To scale without that kind of robustness and resilience is is reckless in many ways. And so, I think that it's it's incredibly important that a lot of focus is is put on this and that's all we think about at Camino for the most part is, you know, risk management and and how do we keep things safe. And data providers and providers like Chainlink, um you know, add that additional layer of of expertise and resilience that's critical to scaling this, particularly as we get into novel assets. You're not just pricing, um you know, just vanilla Bitcoin, but you're looking at um its various derivatives uh and any other kind of derivative um asset, I think it's going to be very important to have as as as clear a picture on on on on that kind of data as as you can get before you start to do any scaling. Uh and that that's really what we're heavily focused on is trying to make everything as as safe and robust as possible.

Makes a lot of sense. Jacob? Yeah. So, obviously I I the three of us on stage have something in common and that's what that's that we work with Chainlink and um you know, I was just talking about how all of us on stage are sort of thinking about how can we meet institutions where they're at. I think Chainlink kind of did this with DeFi.

I think back to last cycle when I was a an investor when I was first getting into the space looking at DeFi and everybody was obsessed with the idea of doing maximally decentralized mechanisms uh when really what we needed was someone to step in with highly efficient, robust infrastructure. Something that just works right now and that's kind of been the MO for Chainlink, I think. Uh we are building this whole DeFi ecosystem uh for Lombard uh collateral every collateral use case almost every collateral use cases require some sort of Oracle to um to underpin this and um if if not also a proof of reserves or Oracle. Um if this messes up, the DeFi ecosystem that we've built up upon um not not just for Lombard, but I guess for Bitcoin DeFi in general sort of crumbles. So, this is of utmost importance.

I mean, in a lot of ways we think about the infrastructure decisions we make with external providers that are fundamental to to the core protocol almost as if we're making a security decision, you know, um ourselves. So, um yeah. I think Chainlink and many others that we've had the pleasure of working with have been um core to everything we've done on the security side to make sure that, you know, we built up Bitcoin DeFi the right way. Fantastic. Um, yeah, I think like fragmentation is a very big big issue for Bitcoin finance.

So, interoperability and also real-time data is something that pretty kind of important to solve this challenge. And that's that's what like Chainlink is like trying to help us to solve. Um, I mean, like for us like as LST projects, and then like I realized that, um, especially where we want to try to build some new bearing products, a firstly, we need to raise money, and we want to raise Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is everywhere. Oh, it's it's on the mainnet, also on like Ethereum, Solana, BNB, a lot of ecosystem. So, the the first thing is try to like deploy different kind of the gateway.

I mean, like the photo products, um, to raise all those sort of Bitcoin, allow users to stake their Bitcoin in just like one click. And then second thing is that how to help them to like really bridge their their Bitcoin to like Solana ecosystem, um, for composability, right? So, this is the second step. And the third thing is that once you like really bridge it, um, the LST, then how to really get the real-time data to to show the like the right NAV of your LST. That's something also very important.

So, yeah, of course, that's obvious, right? Fantastic. And I do want to thank you guys, um, you know, we we love working with all three of you at Chainlink and, you know, providing highly secured, reliable infrastructure is something we take great pride in and securing the vast majority of DeFi value in the market today is is something that we take uh, very, very seriously. And bringing that institutional adoption, you know, quote-unquote bridging TradFi to DeFi is is something that I think we're all mutually aligned on uh, achieving together. So, uh, I'm really excited about bringing that forward in the future.

Speaking about the future, let's uh, let's fast forward 6 months, 12 months. What does Bitcoin Fi look like in the Solana ecosystem? And what key unlocks do you expect to happen to really drive growth? And you know, again, I'll just open it up and whoever wants to start. Um Oh, yeah, maybe stuff from nature.

Um I think like um as I know like Solana has its own has its own objective, which is like 100,000 Bitcoin. Got to like being like bridged to Solana ecosystem in the following maybe half year or maybe 1 year. So, um yeah, from my perspective, I think that's possible, but it's all depends on the use cases and the utility in like Solana ecosystem for Bitcoin holders. So, um I think like firstly, yield generating vehicles is something that I can I can think think about I I can I can I can uh figure out that could be a very good strategy. So, I mean for the following 6 to 12 month, there should be varieties of Bitcoin yield bearing products um come come out come out in the in the in the in the in the uh short-term or mid-term perspective.

The second thing is that lending. I still believe like lending service is the I think lending business is the largest Bitcoin finance use case. So, most of the Bitcoin holders, um the the largest demand is all about lending, just like uh what Camino can provide um for the users. I mean, the value proposition side is pretty it's pretty obvious, right? So, this is the second thing.

And the third thing is all those of summary um but I I I I think we can we will see like what's the very if there's a lot of very interesting kind of place between So- Solana token and Bitcoins. Is there any like structured products uh could be originated or could be designed for um for these two tokens? That's something would be interesting as well. Yeah. Awesome.

I I That was a great breakdown. Hard to follow that, but one place I might just um expand on a little bit is to go back to this idea of Solana as the home for trading. Um has the most retail activity, has the most sort of on-chain trading activity. Bring Bitcoin into this, and now you have incredibly deep liquidity because it is it's, you know, retail traders drive trading volume on chain, volume on chain creates really deep liquidity. Now, Solana becomes the deepest um deepest liquidity source for Bitcoin.

What does this enable? If we like break down the sort of stages that Bitcoin DeFi has gone from, uh step stage one was activation. This is just getting Bitcoin into DeFi, starting to spin around, try some stuff out. We've already done this in EVM ecosystems and stuff. Utilization is what I was just saying we're like on the verge of.

This is now all of a sudden people are using Bitcoin as Bitcoin. They're using it like they would on a centralized exchange or within CeFi. And I think once you have utilization, which drives deep liquidity, then you end up at this third stage that can only happen had you done these first two, which is innovation. Now, first time ever people can, you know, permissionlessly build Bitcoin applications, whatever that may be. Right now, if you want to build a Bitcoin business, you basically have to build a centralized exchange or a custodian.

You have to get licenses. You have to You run a really risky business, right? Uh imagine if you could do all of that with non-custodial tech. You really can't at scale right now, or if you're an existing business or looking to operate at any any large amount of activity, even really having the choice to use on-chain finance or smart contracts, uh very soon I think that becomes a possibility. Yeah, I think echoing everything that that was said there, I think beyond just sort of lending, actually being able to collateralize with these different Bitcoin derivatives unlocks a whole bunch of other um strategies and and um different economic activities that can take place.

And with V2 on the horizon for Camino, this massively broadens the permutations of of credit that we're able to to offer. So, all different varieties of of term and and conditions can be included in this such that a lot of these institutions who are looking for more complex ways to actually get involved rather than just vanilla trading or lending will be able to do so at scale with the right permutations and conditions that they that they need. So, I think as we build this of infrastructure for for lending and these guys build you know, bringing that kind of um the usage of of it in general on chain. I think the combination of the two will unlock a lot of potential in DeFi and you know, I think we all here believe that DeFi is ultimately where the future of this this space will be housed in many ways. And I think you know, this is a great example of of of pushing that forward now and then so enough with everything that that's done with you guys on the on Chainlink side with you know, reliability and the data infrastructure.

I think it's just going to make it all the more viable as a yeah, as as a product in general. Awesome. Yeah, we just want to keep it ticking. With with that in mind, final question guys. How confident are you that Bitcoin Fi will be successful or might even be the most dominant aspect of on-chain finance?

Jacob? I mean, I suppose I wouldn't be building Lombard if I wasn't 100% sure that this is going to happen. But again to go back to what I feel like we're already past the point of no return. Ryan and I have gone back and forth a number of times kind of saying the same thing that Bitcoin Fi is already happening. It's happening on centralized rails.

The only question here is how how much of it can we bring on chain or rather how fast can we bring it on chain? If you believe fundamentally that every asset is going to come on chain in some form, you know, it might take 10 years for us to build really robust primitives that people can use, but if you take that as a as your prior, why would Bitcoin, the largest asset, the most institutionally adopted asset, the only one getting stamp of approval from the biggest governments in the world right now, not make its way into into on-chain finance? In fact, it would be sort of a it would be very weird if Bitcoin was the only digital gold, but then ETH or Solana or some other native token became like the the core collateral that underpins all of DeFi. Um So, my my assumption is that it would be silly if, you know, everything that sort of has has evolved in in CeFi for crypto doesn't make its way on on chain in due time. So, I think all the folks here on stage are helping to speed that up, and I can only hope that it's sooner rather than later.

Phenomenal. Love the passion, Jacob. Ryan, I assume you share. Yeah, sure. Sure.

I totally agree more. For sure. And I think I would share a very interest uh very interesting kind of panel on this part, which is I really believe like Bitcoin finance is the key drive for uh for bull market, even for this cycle or for the last cycle. Cuz if we take a look at last cycle, at that time like Grayscale, they issue like GBTC. I still deem this as a Bitcoin finance, cuz a lot of people try to do arbitrage between GBTC and BTC.

That really drive a huge demands on purchasing Bitcoin at that time, and really make that bull market happen. And for this cycle, what happened? Michael strategy. That's something similar, right? So, this is Bitcoin finance, actually.

Cuz why people buy MSTR? Cuz this is something this is a derivatives derivatives based on Bitcoin, right? And people buy these derivatives. This is Bitcoin finance as well. And as we know like Loan Borrow locked 20,000 Bitcoin, we locked 25,000 Bitcoin, Babylon locked 50,000 Bitcoin.

And we started to lock users Bitcoin from at the time when the Bitcoin price was at like 50,000. Now it's 100,000 around. So, we we lock a lot Bitcoin and people don't want to sell it. That's all about utility on the Bitcoin, right? So, this is the first angle that I try to explain.

Bitcoin finance is so important for this whole crypto space. This is first thing. And the second thing is that it's all about the real demands. I realized that more and more users when they hold Bitcoin and more and more government going to recognize as the mainstream kind of financial assets, then like people would hold Bitcoin instead of like stocks or real estate. More and more people would decided to do that.

At least me myself, I'm doing this. So, when I want to get liquidity, I need financial service on my Bitcoin. I need to get some use or I need to get liquidity. I need to do lending. So, no matter I put it to Bitcoin ETF and borrow it or borrow against it or I put it to like lending, Solana lending or Ethereum lending, I still need to I still need to like get liquidity, right?

So, that's all the real demands that we can foresee in the following 5 to 10 years and that will make Bitcoin finance huge. So, that's pretty simple and yeah, that's my Phenomenal. Thomas, any final thoughts? Yeah, I think that's I mean I share the conviction that Bitcoin will take off. I think that in my personal view for any of these types of novel products to to to scale, it takes Lindy in general and time in the market for for that to happen and we've seen that with Bitcoin as a whole in general over all this time since it was created.

It's it's had time on its side and I think as more time passes and people get more comfortable with how do I go from the mental model of keeping everything in cold storage to now actually how do I utilize this in in in DeFi and what can I actually do with it? Is is there is there point in taking out of cold storage and and moving into DeFi and utilizing it great. I think as as time progresses and people get more comfortable with this idea, they see this happening. uh I think it will only become more self-reinforcing and that's when you truly start to see scale happen. I think yeah, we all agree conceptually that you know, Bitcoin DeFi is is here, but I think it you know, true true scale with time.

I think yeah, it's it's a certainty. Yeah, it's fantastic. Well, gentlemen, absolute pleasure to be up here with you today. Thank you for an amazing discussion and you know, I look forward to continuing to work and build together the future. So.

Sure. Thank you and thank you. Thank you. to Michael. Thanks.