Building Web3: What's Next? - TOKEN2049 London 2022

awesome so I think Eric is going to be joining us a little bit later he's going to just walk right up but to begin building for web 3 what's next maybe we can do a round of intros and exactly what we're building want to start hi uh I'm Zaki uh I have been I'm working on a project called sommelier Finance which is a protocol for doing actively traded D5 strategies that represent themselves as strategy tokens so assets that you can buy that like otherwise the strategy I also work on a lot of different blockchain protocols uh and uh most notably all my work is on Cosmos hi I'm Mustafa I'm the co-founder of Celestia which is a new modular blockchain Network that allows you to very easily deploy your own blockchain my name is Kathy oh no I think we need some Mike help for Kathleen potentially again you can Google Kathleen um cool and I'm Joe I'm a partner at a6sa crypto a lot of my focus prior to this was building in in kind of all the web to peer-to-peer ecosystems so is that Uber I was leading driver pricing there I was at doordash I lead a new verticals and then was that Cameo kind of leading consumer side product uh great for you to join us Eric you want to give us an intro all right hi everyone my name is Eric Wall I'm a I'm a member of the starknet foundation uh board members that was just announced today um long time Bitcoin Community member ethereum Community member I'm investor in the modular ecosystem and overall like a blockchain researcher an investor cool um maybe to kick things off we can talk about decentralization versus centralization I feel like the elephant in the room that a lot of people are asking is what's going on with FTX and finance but maybe even expanding the aperture would be this idea that this isn't new right this idea that C5 is sometimes obstructive or not as transparent about what they do and ultimately you know this isn't and we've seen this months ago with like you know Celsius and Voyager and so the bigger question is more is there ever a good use case for centralization or should crypto be synonymous with with decentralization maybe I don't know Eric do you want to do you want to start us off with that well I think there's not that many use cases that actually require the type of decentralization that we see in networks such as Bitcoin and ethereum I think that the one use case that we understand that we need the centralization for is money and beyond that maybe uh Finance so decentralized exchanges name services but I don't think that we have to go so far and say you know that ride sharing apps or Tinder or stuff like that needs to be decentralized there are a bunch of web 2 applications that need to be able to iterate quickly and they function better in a in a in a centralized model so it's a type of applications where you have catastrophic failures where you lose all your money if something goes wrong those are the types of applications where you actually need decentralization um yeah so the the elephant in the room is that we sort of are experiencing something that feels like Mount dots 2.0 um which is you know a failure of a really well-known extremely liquid centralized exchange and it does feel like a justification and a motivation for why we are trying to build this thing called defy and why we think that like why it is interesting to build systems that basically cannot uh engage like where the kind of opaque risk-taking that apparently existed in FTX is impossible yeah I mean um the way I see decentralization is that I think um like base infrastructure and public goods should be decentralized but people can build specialized um have services on top of that optionally it's just kind of like how the internet is internet itself or the web itself is decentralized but you can have centralized um services on top of it I think similar could apply to have we also need this decentralized digital money but if people want to use centralized s Grouse for example or custodians that's kind of up to them and and as long as like you can as long as you have the option to beat centralized and not use a custodial wallet um yeah I mean unsurprisingly I agree with a lot about my co-panelists have said I would add that in um you know organizing companies and building strategies you actually need a lot of the secrecy that a blockchain doesn't often afford you um someone on a different panel that I was on last week uh mentioned that the constitution Dao is a great example of something where you had like decentralized decision making and I said that was a terrible example um basically people bundled money and then Ken Griffin said oh that's your bid and then he went plus one um so actually there are like you know we can talk about the Halcyon Fields where we we can have um decentralization to coordinate people all across the globe um but often where you need secrecy to be strategic that's where I think centralized Services um you know tend to tend to prosper more um but you know I overwhelmingly agree that like public goods and things like this that are systematically important to financial systems online ought to have some sort of check you know proof of reserves and and and at least some sort of um transparency that um blockchains offer you basically costs Lee awesome yeah can I ask one question yeah yeah I just want to ask the other panelists like do you think that Twitter should be decentralized um why not I don't I don't think it needs to be on the blockchain but I don't see why you can't have a like a peer like email detentionalized in theory like email is peer-to-peer so I like Twitter could use it could be email like for example it doesn't need to be a blockchain like you don't need consensus on the tweets but it could uh I think it should be decentralized and it can be yeah I agree with that I think it's this idea of like are you basically once you're on a platform you're kind of stuck there with Twitter right even if you have your identity you have your followers it's very difficult to actually then bring it over to another platform even if another platform exists so there are instances of like web3 Twitter I think forecaster is a really good example it's an open layer blockchain with a social graph it's not it's more of like an L1 right and with a social graph anyone can build on top of forecaster and anyone can leave and the beauty of it is as a developer once you build on firecast or maybe your front end is much better than the one that firecaster built itself and people migrate over and I think that's great right there is no one stopping you from being able to build and that the composability is what makes that really really special um I I think a lot of the people who argue that Twitter should be decentralized in some form um are doing so because I think it's a town square and that everyone should have a right to do X um I think Twitter is like a you know at this point a private company um that basically sells ads right um and that's how they make revenue and so like a lot of the sound criticisms of um the sort of what Elon Musk has gotten himself into I think boil back to like he's arguing to do things that um will make it less likely that advertisers will continue to advertise on Twitter um so that's that's kind of I think where the disconnect is do you have any thoughts no I was just gonna say like ruminating on my answer that only money needs to be decided I think that we also need a censorship resistant Town Square if if the past couple of years has shown us anything is that that component is also something that's worthwhile decentralizing yeah I think there's a lot of things too right like I think content is another example it's not just money I think a lot of times whenever there's like a peer-to-peer application the question is always why do you have a centralized entity in the middle taking a take rate and you know I I mean I was at Uber the question was always what is Uber without the Riders and drivers but you had a third party which were the shareholders of uber who ultimately were the ones making the decision of where that network was going and so is there a world where I think you mentioned maybe ride like a web through like ride sharing example isn't good I think that's actually a really great example and it was one of the earliest use cases I think like 2018 we've been talking about building like the killer like if application is like decentralized ride sharing but we still haven't built it and maybe the better question I'd love to ask all of y'all is what do you think is stopping us from Vampire attacking kind of like the web 2 consumer stack Kathleen maybe or Eric if you're ready yeah well I just think that yeah it's true that you you do get uh the benefit that if you're on a decentralized ride sharing app the rules can't just change under your feet and that's great but the other benefit that you need when you're developing this type of application is you need to be able to iterate quickly if you have a decentralized application now you want to launch version two you have to get every other node in the network to to either you got to get users to migrate from the previous version to the new version you need that type of integration to be to stay competitive towards the competition so I think like that's a give and take here so it's like even though like intuitively it makes sense that you want to root the rules to sort of stick there you can't get that without also getting the slower Innovation so just to like build on what Eric was saying I think about this a lot when when teams come to me with like when people come to me and they're like oh I want to build like a decentralized x that isn't a money Moving System I mean it's like why do we build decentralized money Moving Systems well if you build centralized money Moving Systems you need licenses or you go to jail um it's huge reason to build decentralized and so you you are willing to like interact with this incredibly difficult to use software development life cycle where iteration is incredibly slow where every time you want to make a change and evolve the product you have to get into like a massive governance debate that there's like politics with everything um and nobody in general is super happy about that but if the alternative to building such a system is that you're either building something that is fragile and going to lose everyone's money or you're going to go to jail for operating it or all these other reasons then you like bear that pain pain and the question is is like would someone bear that pain to build Uber or would someone bear that pain to build a decentralized Twitter and that's less clear to me um and then the question then becomes um can we bring down that pain and like the reality is we're still very very early and trying to like build mechanisms of developing decentralized software that are like not so painful to build upon yeah I think part of it is that it's just really hard to build decentralized systems that scales technically and also that have good ux and like if you look at like the history like the history of email like emails started out extremely kind of distributed those lots of email providers but now like if you're on Google Microsoft or apple it's very difficult to start your own mail server and not have your emails rejected as spam um because that's because email kind of has a very bad because without that email we have a very very bad ux because you would get a Spam all the time um so I think I think that's also part of the reason uh like protocols tend towards visualization because of ux issues and scale issues um my initial reaction to that is is essentially that like the other thing that Uber provides you it's not just between drivers and passengers it's also with insurers right so like the difference between me calling up someone that I you know vaguely know in a city and met once or something you know a number that I see in the bathroom wall or something and say hey can you give me a lift is that I think there's a semblance of a chance um that I might be safer with someone who is being brokered through a third party um and I guess that's um I I guess that's one big benefit and sort of 1.0 version but I think the point of uh I think the point of cryptocurrencies essentially are to lower transaction costs for complex transactions that are meant to be with someone you don't necessarily have to trust um and so that that encompasses a lot of our sort of modern world um and I think certainly that you know potentially could be something with ride sharing you know who am I to who am I to say no but I think that layer of like insurance and like the sort of uh enforcement of that is is non- pretty important yeah no I mean it's it's kind of funny because like when you think about what is truly peer-to-peer ride sharing it was like Craigslist you post on Craigslist I want to ride and then someone else says I can give you a ride and that's web one and the reason why we went kind of backwards we allowed a central entity to like take a commission in between that brokering that transaction is because there's trust involved and maybe this is kind of like a good leeway to talk about how do we think about building reputation and Trust in web3 I think a lot of the questions a lot of people have is well like in a normal you know functioning ecosystem like let's say I go to the flea market I am someone who like you know is malicious I you know I'm haggling and then I shortchange the merchant they remember me and they'll make sure they'll never do business with me again and I think one of the things that has kind of been a problem in crypto is this idea that people can be malicious pull the rug and spin up either a new wallet very easily or switch up identities very easily so we'd love to hear everyone's thoughts generally on how you think about building for privacy as well as some sort of overarching reputation that is portable across different ecosystems and and that actually is like kind of a credit score uh regardless of which ecosystem you're in I mean we build these type of systems assuming that we don't know who people are right that's why we build over collateralize that most of the time we're supposed to build over collateralized applications we don't do that all the time but but we're supposed to yeah if we don't have an effective identity system on blockchains and I don't think that we want one of course you can build gated ecosystems where you do permission identity but that's not like the ethos of cryptocurrency you want anyone to be able to be a fridge or a dog uh and it's not you're not supposed to to be gate kept on based on who who you are and if you're not going to have identity then you can't really have the same type of trust based systems that we have in the regular world where you remember people's faces and and I would add that there's also like I mean even when you aren't like just switching wallets thereafter like there have been big frauds that have been committed by people multiple times and like there's been very little reputational hit um in this ecosystem right like so even when the entity is known it's just like business as usual kind of yeah and it feels kind of ridiculous to say like oh you you know who someone is and it's the confidence scam right someone you play repeated games with someone and each time they reciprocate until they don't and then you find out that there's a six billion dollar hole in FDX and the whole industry is collapsing yeah I think the question wasn't so much should we koi see everyone I think it's more of a question of we do have the technology to be like I think like zero knowledge groups is a good example of you being able to do something anonymously while being able to prove that that you are you are the person who's supposed to do that transaction uh but that's just one application of that I think maybe Celestia like I don't know Mustafa do you have any thoughts on this yeah I mean I think it kind of boils down to stable resistance like how do you create reputation systems that are civil resistance and I also like this problem like web 2 also has to solve this problem like before social media networks were a thing people like a lot of people were thinking like social media networks are even possible because how the hell would they even prevent Bots from signing up like what if I just create a script that site makes a million accounts uh and like they and you would think you would think they would solve that problem by now but they haven't like Twitter has a huge boss problem email has a huge fan problem you know and Facebook and so on so web 2 also hasn't hasn't hasn't solved this problem either so yeah it's questions like how do we do um how do we do like privacy preserving kind of reputation systems and simple resistance ideally yeah we don't want to address kyc everybody we don't we don't want to just have a specialized entity everybody uh I don't really think right now there is no perfect solution right now uh like ideally um there's like there's like what's called proof of humanity systems where you can prove like someone is a unique individual but the ux for that is extremely bad but it's the middle ground systems like Bitcoin passport that let you like authenticate yourself with various things like Google and stuff like that there was something we did at the Devcon conference in Bogota where the ens Founders had uh like a system for printing out your ens name on a badge and people went around with their cell phones and they scanned other people at the conference they scanned their ens names and you if you were there you know that you scanned a bunch of people and then you can see who they scanned and you can see who those people scanned so they were basically building a type of web of trust for ens identities on that conference so that could be one way to sort of build an ecosystem of individuals where so it goes back to this old concept of web of trust that comes from like the 80s or something yeah I vouch for you and therefore some of my reputation is hit if I vouch for someone who then is malicious exactly I think that there are for people who are very web 3 native there are a bunch of like crypto social reputational holes in the ecosystem right now that like we feel very like constantly like interacting with governance is like super awkward word it would be nice to be able to be like I'm going to create a new pseudonym but like show some connection to like my real name's reputation and identity um like I you know being able to like release software in a way that's like connected to also my activities on the Chain like all of these things are like they're like real missing crypto social sort of layers that are missing and I suspect like those get solved for web 3 natives first and then like any sort of like Financial reputation system that's so is the question that we need to build a standard for something like this some sort of like reputation score that persists yeah I mean like signing signed in with ethereum is starting to become a standard like uh in web 2 like people tried really hard to do this thing called open ID it was like like you know how like right now you have like login with Facebook plugged into Google but these are centralized companies and back in the day people used to people used to um try to it was this thing called open ID which is like a decentralized version of um Facebook like login with Facebook and login with Google but never really took off but surprisingly um like locally like logging in with ethereum has actually took off like you log into like nft or D5 apps using metamask with your ethereum address and so like ideally if you can kind of like tie in some kind of like some form of civil resistance or reputation system would like your eth address or your like uh whatever blockchain address and then that could be like one path forward and that's like that's what that's what Bitcoin passport is trying to do um you can connect certain things about your identity to your ethereum address like you can say you can connect like for example you can you can prove that you have a Twitter account and connect it to your ethereum address for example awesome um I think maybe shifting gears here we have a lot of l1's on on the panel would love to hear your guys's thoughts on how we think about the world and crypto moving from monolith to modular and vice versa so when we think about like monolithic you know chains or like you know ethereum is a good example but more and more we're seeing apps specific L ones like dydx um generally how do you guys think about kind of this dichotomy of of Monolithic versus modular uh maybe Celestia maybe like yeah yeah I mean the way that we look at it is like um web3 is following a similar Evolution to web2 uh like back before like virtual machines and the cloud was really popularized um the the main ways that you would deploy a website with either you like use a shared web hosting service like geocities or Bluehost and you have to you you have to use whatever like execute like programming languages or execution environment they have so back in the day like it was just like PHP or MySQL you were very limited to what you could do all you had to physically deploy your own server and and then if you want to collect flexibility you would have to physically deploy your own server but then the cloud came along and then it kind of gave you the best of both wealth because it allowed you to have the benefit like deploy your own virtual server but without the without the overhead of habit of having to actually deploy or maintain a physical server and so there's kind of like a similar um like transition happening in web3 like when ethereum was popularized it was like okay that's just everyone just deploys their application on the same chain and everyone has to use the evm and all the applications run on the same blockchain on the same computer but now we're seeing like a more a multi-chain ecosystem where each um like there's many different chains so like because there's many different Cosmos chains and also in ethereum that each Roll Up is a chain and and so if we use if we use roll-up technology for example we can make it possible to um deploy your own chain without the benefits without the usual overheads that come with playing your own team because with Roll-Ups you don't have to maintain your own validator set similar to how you if you use a virtual machine in the cloud down to maintain physical Hardware I said that's kind of like the monitorial thesis is about um you you know it's basically a decoupling the layer one consensus from execution people can now Define their own execution environments in the form of their own blockchain instead of being tied to one specific uh execution environment Kathleen Harris tells us think about modularity versus monolith um yeah so I guess just a quick primer uh tezos is a layer one cryptocurrency um it was born under the observation that Bitcoin lacks An Elegant uh formal forum for upgrading itself and uh so basically we have governance as part of as as part of the protocol um it's upgraded at 11 times it's on its 12th and the idea is to basically take um things that work really well we we've stolen because radar to steal a little bit from Cosmos for example um in in designing consensus algorithms um and the idea is to basically anticipate needs that a layer one might need and to basically have a mechanism where token holders can propose and ratify and instantiate upgrades to the protocol seamlessly um it's worked well so far but yeah basically we focus more on making all the features go in at the layer one as opposed to incentivizing and promoting the creation of new chains um the reason well going back to 2013 when the idea was conceived of um in 2013 if you had like a new consensus algorithm or something like this you'd create a new token wholesale um and the observation we had was like Hey you know you have to bootstrap all these Network effects in order for that new token to take hold and for people to really benefit from that wouldn't it be better and and arguably easier if there was some sort of mechanism for proposing and instantiating that um into the protocol itself so that's how we got the governance model that we have um the main thing that I think is the so we have experienced as an industry like the sense in which like a given L1 fuels like one unified thing right like uh when you're interacting with the ethereum ecosystem you use one wallet that wallet like takes you across multiple applications you use one block Explorer ether scan to like understand what's going on and the real question has been if as you try to go towards this like application specific blockchain future if that is an interesting feature can you still have this sort of crypto native experience of oh it all feels like one ecosystem I think the cosmos ecosystem has made a huge amount of strides towards that towards feeling like it's one ecosystem even though it's many different applications specific chains but it's still very early days and I think that's like a huge need thing that has to happen for like things like Celestial School uh I think it's a great thing that we have Zaki on this uh panel because I think that he's extremely insightful when it comes to this and I want to like ask a couple of questions Suzuki if that's okay so I think you know so one of the largest DK Roll-Ups that we had on ethereum dydx spun out from being a ZK roll up or is spinning out to become a cosmos chain at the same time in the cosmos ecosystem they're sort of chatter around maybe these application application specific blockchains in the cosmos ecosystem should leverage something like Celestia as the data availability system which sort of turns them into Roll-Ups so you have dydx becoming an application specific blockchain instead of a roll-up application specific role blockchains are becoming roll ups it feels like there's a circle going on here um do you have a do you have any insights here like I said what's going on here um so I I would say the first thing is dydx was trying to solve a very particular problem and they were trying to find a tool chain a set of tools that existed within the blockchain ecosystem for solving their problem and basically what they wanted to do was get rid of their centralized order book um that was their most important thing and so you can build an architecture with Cosmos where like literally your order book moves country what country it is in um you know every two or three seconds which is a completely crazy idea for people who have built you know conventional exchanges the idea that your order book might like TR like essentially be traveling around the world and that's a really cool thing that you can build on the cosmos architecture um but like the cosmos architecture at like in theory is not the only way to build this like you there could have been an L2 architecture on top of ethereum or Celestia that could have enabled this it just doesn't exist yet um and so but we you know so when you know the cosmos ecosystem is going really well um but you know I think a lot of us when we look Beyond you know 100 blockchains and into the thousands tens of thousands of blockchains we do see sort of a lot of sort of architectural in Hungary like sort of like sort of friction um with this with this model um at the higher end of scale which we think we are making progress and heading towards um and so that's why things like Celestia are very interesting to me because it posits an architecture that could sort of go to that next level of scale in a way that we don't think we can get with our current I have one more question okay if that's okay so a while ago uh I was trying to understand how can cross roll up systems and this is a question for for you guys also how can cross roll up systems uh communicate with each other or Bridge with each other effectively and I I was I think I had a conversation with Georges constantinopoulos from from Paradigm and and he said that you guys have been looking at a cross roll up bridges that would be trustless in some way or almost like Atomic so like what's what's the future for cross roll up interaction is is it IBC or is it something that will leverage the mutual data availability layer like will we see more because the big problem here is that when we're building application specific blockchains and Roll-Ups the compo the composability breaks is there some light at the end of the tunnel where these systems are going to become better at interacting with each other than what we currently have or is IBC the best that we're gonna we're gonna see yeah I guess to kind of give me some context um in general generally there's kind of like two types of bridges in the blockchain ecosystem that's what I would describe as a trust minimized bridge and a committee based Bridge uh a committee based bridge is what IBC uses right now and like what has existed between World Ops like the bridge between ethereum and polygon uh and those bridges basically relying on the committee to assign messages in the bridge and you have to trust that committee if that committee misbehaves they can steal funds but roll ups introduce a new type of bridge which I described as a trust minimize Bridge and instead of trusting and committee to tell you the messages between that in the bridges is correct uh you instead of you you said use proof proving based systems like ZK proofs or food proofs that prove that the state of the destination and Source chain is correct so you don't have to trust the committee anymore you just have to trust um like math basically uh or like or cryptographic proof but right now IBC uses a committee base bridge and that's why um like if you want to scale Cosmos to millions of chains we kind of assume that there will be a million secure committees it's very unlikely and that's why we want to that's why it's last year we're trying to make it possible to deploy a cosmos chain using roll-ups because so that um the cosmos chains we want to we want to add like fraud proofs SDK proofs IBC so you can have like four provable IBC so that Roll-Ups can communicate with each other and without using committee based assumption and so like you don't have to assume that if there's a million Roll-Ups you have to assume that all of them have a secure committee effectively yeah sorry Joe for for stealing your role here but I have to ask some more questions about this so our good friend to be fair I think we're getting called off the stage I think we end on the 40. so our good friend James prestwich of nomad built a fraud provable Bridge system and I think it's just we're getting kind of demoralized with all of these Bridge hacks are we can we really build uh more complex Bridge systems in blockchains than like multi-sig Bridges but I mean that all of these hacks uh so all these hacks were as a result of a kind of a coding error in the in in this in the bridge rather than the design of the bridge itself like it was always due to some stupid coding error like rather than the fact whether there were multi-stick Bridges or not uh but I think like yeah like all kinds of bridges like ridges are really scary like like and like like they're extremely scary and people are underestimate how scary they are I think like ultimately um we need more like trust minimizabilities also don't fix the hack that's Nomad had a wormhole hack because that was like a hack in the actual spot contract not in the fundamental design of the bridge um so yeah it's fundamentally a question of like how um like how do we maybe we need some some fallback mechanisms to help like like either we need either like we need more yeah we we just need to think about like how to first of all create secure spot contracts but also to kind of like deal with cases where smart contract fails like maybe there's a way to like we can um shut down like someone can shut down the bridge immediately or something or something like that like we should prioritize safety over like this and since like we should prioritize the safety of the bridge over the uptime of the bridge like if like if anything goes wrong the bridge should should be immediately shut down so if you can prioritize safety of a lightness maybe there's ways to kind of make them they're scary so I'll just like make two comments yeah um so one comment is on the bridge security question and I think the bridge bridges are probably one of the things that I think benefits the most from having standards like having a standards oriented Bridge which is what IBC tries to do I will say that there is a challenge of doing that which is that if you build a standards oriented Bridge there's no obvious way to monetize it um and so you have uh so you know this has been you know so Cosmos sort of Steel Man the unmonetizable standards oriented bridge design um as an ecosystem and I've been trying to figure it out ever since um but it's like one of the reasons I think like the bridge ecosystem struggles because they're like people don't have don't build standards they're building uh they build very quickly they're all in competition for market share with each other there's the bridging fees are actually a very like you know valuable thing and people are after this and then Bridge Mev is going to be an even more valuable thing so people are very interested in that um and then to kind of go back to like one of the questions of whether or not IBC is sort of the last word in interoperability I actually do think there's a so I IBC is a way for like two blockchains to sort of understand each other they understand each other's consensus algorithm they understand each other's internal State they can read and write to that state from each other um but we are also seeing this world in which like sort of block proposers could potentially propose common block like in a common way across multiple blockchains and this is sort of a significant Frontier in an interop that you can uh you can sort of explore in the cosmos ecosystem we have a project called hyphen which is like a tender much like multiple tendermint chains making blocks together and then we also have this uh this idea of a shared data availability letter and shared sequencers being able to like propose blocks together all of these things are like important infrastructural pieces to like make the app chain World truly competitive across all possible metrics with the uh monolithic World awesome maybe we can do a quick round robin on what are some of like the cross-sector ideas that you're most excited about like maybe the intersection of like crypto and AI or like crypto and like biology um maybe we can go calculator if there's anything that's exciting to you uh yeah I mean I think finances first and foremost uh the most exciting thing and I I've been overwhelmingly um disappointed with a lot of the efforts in defy because they've been sort of circular almost um I mean Finance is a tool for you know financing other activities not the activity of defy um and uh so I look forward to seeing you know more efforts towards like taking hard assets and trying to put them on chain and some form the you know Tesla's ecosystem does that with stos quite a bit it'd be nice to see like people actually kind of going towards and pushing the envelope a little bit a lot of what you see unfortunately is rehashes of common themes over and over again yeah I think um I'm perfectly very interested in that like the idea of decentralized autonomous organizations in general like I want to see more experiments with Dallas and like uh especially like dolls because Dallas affected their way to kind of like um create your own jurisdiction in a way a great great earned jurisdiction with his own rules uh without having those rules enforced by a quote um so I think like I want to see like dials on their own chains and more experimentation around that um I think that the uh so obviously I have a tremendous interest in D5 which is why I'm you know similier is like one of my main projects um but the uh I I honestly have been starting to feel intrigued by this like whole intersection of um of of like of like Ai and Dows because like the whole uh scale uh uh and Runway like stable diffusion sort of joint IP thing like seems like it's starting to rhyme with like Dows without meaning to and it seems like there might be something to explore though yeah if I have like one cringe uh web 3 idea of something that I really want to happen it's content creators merging with dials but that's I actually think that that could be something that could be huge so you can have twitch streamers only fan models tick tockers Instagram models like all these icons that attract huge amount of eyeballs and attention and personality Cults around them um that is for me a great setting for a centralized autonomous organization where you can have specific goals that the dial wants to achieve so you can have one model for example that wants to get plastic out of the ocean and now you have a community there and participation to the community service gated by an nft as people swap these nfts you can have a treasury that generates revenue and you can sort of build an organization that sets out to solve specific tasks so it's kind of like unionizing creative Types on the Internet or sure I'm trying to think of the tagline yeah yeah because I think the question always there is like what does a tokenomics look like so that you're always sure the people that are part of that are the individuals who are like the real fans right as opposed to speculators who are buying into the organization I just think we've tried really hard to create communities in the web 3 space and people make communities based on I have a picture of a digital monkey as my profile picture and so do you and now we're friends but I think that in the in the Creator economy there are like already pre-existing communities that like each other because they like the same art as they like the same type of things uh please didn't they just buy a bunch of like art well they had an interesting nfts I suppose well the artist herself is the one that actually does a lot of the artwork right right but didn't they also buy like a bunch of other artwork um so anyway so creative tokens I think it's a shame that bitcloud probably set the Creator token economy back like five year five years it's gonna take a while before people can get excited about like having a token like having a token that sort of represents the value in in the content that's being put out by a specific creator yeah I think there's definitely a lot of like interesting things I think like co-create is a good example of like someone that we're like I guess a project that's kind of going in that space so we have we're kind of coming up on time maybe we can just close out on where we think any predictions for the future where we think kind of closing out on building for the future of web3 yeah where do you think it's going proof of reserves please for the love of God we cannot have another situation like uh FDX not again it's it's too many times we've had this problem too many times we need to either use defy or if we use centralized exchanges let's Force like let's leave them if they don't publish any records of what their on-chain wallets looked like um yeah I mean I I the only thing I can say is it does it does feel like a re-motivating moment I think a lot of the narratives in the investor Community had like shifted against D5 in the last you know six months or so to like game five and gaming and all this other stuff and it you know this is a reminder of that like we still just like don't have the core infrastructure of blockchains in terms of price Discovery and everything working in the in a in a trustworthy manner yet um yeah for like for the past 10 years we've been stuck in this uh loop which I call the monolithic blockchain Loop where people keep launching new layer one blockchains that promise to solve the problems of the previous generation of blockchains like now we have up to Zuri the last generation we have Solana there as this you know like tens every new generation and that's not sustainable so I'm hoping that they want to learn a blockchain um philosophy will help us break free from that Loop um and yeah I think uh in order for nl1 to be extremely useful in like kind of the Newfound popularity that the space had maybe it doesn't have it anymore but maybe it'll have it again uh scaling is the the next big problem uh for the ecosystem to solve so we don't need to have this Patchwork uh that that has proven to be a source of vulnerability and and reputation uh burning yeah I'll close this out I feel like we've seen this in history when you have an entity that rules unilaterally I think in that we're in London so I can use this example like King James II like in 1688 he was I think he was overtaken by by the parliament because he was just making laws on his own he was like forcing the citizens to participate uh in in lending in very low interest rates to the crown and ultimately if we look at what's going on today like anything that's kind of like a centralized entity so someone like the big Tech players of today they're kind of like digital versions of King James II because over time they have built Network effects and ultimately there was this idea of subsumption risk right I think Apple's a really good example of this where they can once you have developers locked in they can change the terms and services and change up their commission rates and you're kind of just left holding the bag like I guess I have to stick here I think Amazon is another good example where they generally do compete with the merchants who build on top of their ecosystem when they see The Ledger and the data of which widgets are the most profitable then they spin up their own call it like Amazon Basics line it's like a white label line that then they they basically build against the people who build on top of them and so what we kind of Go full circle of like why does decentralization matter outside of Finance like even for content for e-commerce I think there's always this idea of like portability and like composability I think is really really important um and so for us I I hope you know there are builders in the crowd who have been inspired from from the panelists in our discussion today at a60 crypto we actually have um startup school that we're launching so it's going to be like a web 3 accelerator uh starting next march applications are due this November and it's going to be 3 months long so hopefully we'll see a lot of you guys applying and that kind of wraps it up here thank you all for coming and maybe we can do a round of applause for our panelists today