How to Navigate Crypto Capital Markets - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

thank you everyone for coming to what is probably the most technical uh markets panel but probably the one that you'll learn the most or at least I hope so um I'm here joined by three of the Premier market makers in the space um you guys can do quick intros and I'll do mine first so I run split Capital it's a hedge fund um we focus primarily on just buying and selling uh you know digital assets across the board yeah hi everyone uh I'm Co of inut uh yeah one of the largest prop tring firms in in the space we're doing pretty much everything from C5 to D5 to OTC yeah he said Technical and I think some people start getting scared they're like do I need a calculator like what am I going to have to do um I'm Jordy founder of Selen Capital uh very much uh similar we're um active participants in uh all crypto markets hi everyone my name is Annabel Hong managing partner of Amber group similarly also have the market making business both um centralise venues and onchain um outside of that uh we also have a digital Wealth Management Service as well awesome amazing so I I wanted to ask you know people don't really grow up wanting to become liquidity providers or market makers it's uh not you know many boys and girls dreams to necessarily do this how did you guys get into the space to begin with yeah for me specifically I basically started Finance for my master and there a bunch of those books like liar sper Barbarians at the gate like basically about finance and I guess like one of the central thems for a lot of them is you have this protagonist like I last Boker for example like protagonist he joins a bank he's like a nobody he's doesn't know what trading is and then he lears his way he makes a lot of money and then he gets disenchanted in the whole thing like he makes too much oh it's all like I don't know it's not worth it it destroys my soul whatever and I was basically yeah I'm curious like let let me try this that's it yeah I mean I think um it is human nature to have to take risks take good risks learn some people will not learn and they'll kind of fall off and as humans were're trying to be the ones that evolutionarily like make it um so for me it's always been you know having good good judgment good risk reward for decision- making and how do you become a crypto Market maker I mean I think very normal path we become traders in traditional Finance um you do that for some years and then you see that there's a very exciting New Market that is very inefficient and has a lot of I mean we I guess we saw the potential so here we are yeah for me similar story as well um studying math and onr and felt like you know it's either maybe going to prop trading and then or Wall Street which is more like sside Market making type roles um and for me I think wanted to you know get involved in a bigger platform which is why I went into Wall Street um and afterwards actually started crypto um building the first generation decks on chain um so outside of the infrastructure struggles actually the biggest thing was there's zero market makers who are even willing to trade on chain um there's liquidity begets liquidity and back then like the most daily turnover we did was probably 100K dollar right so we have to pay um some of this um European based mm a lot of tokens for them to even trade and um at some point I decided to move to Hong Kong and um and then this is where amember came about might as well you know leverage the past trading experience and build a market maker trading desk that are willing to start looking more uh in terms of Defi and obviously we've grown a lot in the last six years awesome so I'm going to ask the question that I think everyone's wondering new token launches have been down only pretty much across the board why is this the case we'll start with Annabelle maybe put me and the um I think first of all obviously there is the High fdv um let's not talk about a flow right even um and in this market like sure we had initial borun but that's mostly isolated to the in institutional allocations to bitcoin ETF right not even that much to ethereum ETFs and that is very separate to liquidity uh in within the more crypto native markets um so if we look at U the multiple launches there are a billion dollar plus um it's just not that much retail demand and buying power to continue to prop the market or prop the uh price up right so I think this is also why um um there's some reflection going on and this anti- high fdv low flow it's because you know we we're seeing this model doesn't work I mean I think it's uh it's a great very important question very pertinent to this year also previous years and let me talk about how to navigate crypto Capital markets you know it's such a big thing to be uh allocating capital in the wrong place wrong assets and we were talking backstage how like a lot of people have washed out over the years because of the vola and excesses and you know you're top of the world and there's like a small tail risk that you completely blow up and except for the one cockroach that we were uh mentioning backstage like most people cannot navigate uh for for many years and the FTV thing you know look uh the reality is most of the crypto exchanges they get customers based on uh tges people love that first Ico moment because it has you know this potential it's all maybe this is the one that's going to be the next ethereum and you know we all know how the Ico went for ethereum in terms of the investors they've done extremely well and entire exchanges are uh relying on token listings unfortunately um in terms of your question all the demand happens on day one because that's kind of like where all the hype is and the projects themselves spent a lot of money on creating hype on day one right they want to get all their K's everybody and unfortunately you're usually buying the top unless you know it's one of those underhyped projects that goes up um what's good for people investing is not necessarily what's good for the project so there's a little bit of Disconnect there and I think exchanges finally for the first time are realizing that if their users lose a lot of money it's not good for them either um they're kind of wallets get drained we see a lot of people disappear um halfway through the cycle because haven't been doing well and we got to fix it how do you fix it if gny no I think one one thing that I would add is like there is a pretty significant information symmetry between basically like so like professional investors like Venture funds whatever um and all this retail people who go to to try to buy those tokens during TG like they are not necessarily aware that what those Venture funds or like other investors paid during I don't know series during series USA or even see it is I don't know like they're making 10x 100x in certain cases and obviously they're going to sell at some point if there are perss being listed they're going to sell the perss to hedge at least some and it's just not very evident and uh so one way to solve it is well to make it all very transparent what the entry price was for every single participant um in other ways I think we should also legitimize in a lot of ways to basically allow to trans for those positions from Venture funds to maybe I don't know later stage funds for example who can I don't know give those Venture funds I don't know 5x exit and now they have a higher entry price which means that TGs will be much less selling pressure like all those things yeah we should basically work as industry to normalize a lot more both on the transparency disclosure side but also on normalizing the people selling before TG as well yeah and and I want to go back to something you mentioned Jordy you talked about you know um what seems like a positive thing for the project day one to launch as high as possible raise like you know 50 100 $150 million in uh capital on token sales and then they kind of go back a couple months later and they're like why do we not have any users why does our community hate us how do how would you kind of navigate that relationship because you guys do engage you know a lot of these projects how would you navigate that relationship with a market maker sorry with a uh project to say you know maybe this is too high of a price day one you know can we renegotiate is that even a thing or is this not a conversation that you guys have I mean most projects because everything in crypto we're not looking at DCF analysis there's no like consistent cash flow it's not the same as an equity everything is relative basis so every founder I talk to just looks at their comparables and they want to list in that FTV range so um you know an L1 has their FTV range and everybody wants to be an L1 now because there is a a premium to to being a blockchain instead of being an app unfortunately like we've seen this over and over again um so you know you mentioned token sales I think a lot of projects don't even do token sales some do but a lot of them are the more that their FTV is high they can do Partnerships and they can say hey five bips of my token list me here put me here right and people will take them seriously so they they try to use it as a growth leverage um that works for a while but eventually comes to haunt you because the tokens eventually create a negative sentiment from from Price going down this has not been solved we're we're in the middle of um as Annabelle called it like a lot of reflection collectively now right of gen Annabelle do you guys have any views on this I think we'll see a lot of more experimentation in General on how protocols interact with early users how they do uh air drops how they do whatever points like everything else because I think it's like again those like air drops and points they create a bunch they create a whole layer of token holders with Zero Entry cost or like sort of Zero Entry cost because a lot of them are farming with their Capital so there is some cost involved but truth is they still have they get they get tokens for free and so they're pretty much incentivized to sell them if they don't care about long-term Prospect so you need to be more creative you need to be well we we need to come up with more Creative Solutions here yeah I actually wanted to touch on the sust sustainability part right the business models no VCS well at least most VCS don't really look at that like you know they don't really look at are you making Revenue right what's the business model I think there is a change happening now where VC is realizing that okay you know we need to actually invest in businesses that have longer term prospects as opposed to yeah just initial airdrop but um but I do think I imagine as a young founder you're looking at okay all the VCS uh investing into fancy narratives you don't really need to worry about um you know creating a sustainable business model and um that's sort of the the game so far right and um so to that point I think it's not even you know it doesn't even just it's not just exchanges or project themselves but also VCS who are allocating early supporting these projects um which direction are they really steering towards and then also on the private Market capture versus Public Market capture right it we're seeing an imbalance is that going to change and um ultimately it's it's all about sust sustainability in the long term and how price can you know stabilize right right I think the audience should really appreciate how big of a treat it is to get you know actual market makers on a panel and you know divulge some of their secrets so I'm very appreciative of this and you know want to really thank you guys for this but you know it another kind of growing theme has been you know on this whole idea of um you know high fdv low float new token launches have been negative exchanges have now kind of pivoted um instead of doing maybe more of the legitimate projects that have you know real backers on the VC side to doing a lot of questionable maybe mem coin you know launches nowadays where even end users are kind of scratching their heads thinking like what are they really doing with these new launches how much do you guys you know kind of participate in this in this world of mcoin Market making and you know what are your own views with you know with the strategy that the exchanges are running I mean I think as Financial products uh they are not Financial products so um we had GameStop and I think a lot of people got excited about trading Robin Hood maybe that's a good thing in a way it brought a lot of people into investing markets from the mainstream and maybe that's good for you know people that start um you know investing and not having their Fiat DBS so I'm supportive of that but um you know we saw binance for example list all kinds of interesting meme coins uh a couple days ago and then you read what they're writing about it and they're saying you know we listed this 15 million market cap coin because uh we understand there's some anti-wall Street sentiment and people want to bet on this stuff but like the reality is the crypto users are very different than the exchanges The Exchange people are running a business they're business people they're BD people they're people they're not most of them maybe Justin Sun excluded are not on crypto Twitter all day like understanding the culture and what people are actually doing they're literally just kpi like what's our kpis and then they realize everyone's losing money maybe let's do low float low like high float low fdv meme coins I don't think it ends well I'm not uh personally sure that um you know listing baby Doge 1,000 because there's so many baby Doge tokens that you need to list the one where one contract is like a million tokens or something I'm not sure where it gets us but um I think the meme coin thing I mean just to like not be totally bashing meme coins I I do think that there's a way to use that uh attention for memec coins and the Simplicity because why does everybody like mem coins I do a memec coin panel I do one in Dubai Full House everybody wants to hear about meme coins you know hear anom talk about whiff like it it was packed I so I think the reason is people like the Simplicity like there's an animal it's very easy for the brain and then you make a financial instrument you attach it to the animal it's very exciting I do think there's a way to create real products out of that um you know I I've been dabling in that myself as an experiment so hopefully like that will evolve and we'll have something better yeah awesome do you guys have any views Anabelle of getting yeah I think like it's not even an anti Wall Street or whatever like it's it's anti the previous meta which is like all those complex tokens with that complex models with like phds at the head and like all those super smart people and I know inter subjective tokens whatever like all those like new terms that people have to learn and all those tokens are basic down only and this is like opp Opposite I guess that that's what attracts people but yeah do we partake yes yes we do trade m coins but yeah for us it's just another token basically and if there are volumes yeah it's definitely interesting for any proping firm that trade them yeah no I think it's definitely in response to the high fdv low flow which is why they're you know going complete 180 on this I think there's one thing to know I think we talked about this a little bit earlier as well is um sure mean coins are you know mostly are fair launch or quotee unquote Fair launch and you know decentralized ownership but in reality is that the case there's still a lot of Insider training happening right so um yeah that's that's I think you know even for retail investors or for for listing side that's something you need to look into and not just list beam coins for the sake of of of that yeah it it seems like a constant theme in crypto is this idea didn't work out so instead of iterating on this idea let's burn it you know talk about it for ages never look at it again and let's move 180 in the other direction which I think is a constant mistake um but we can talk about that some you know uh forever basically I wanted to you know we talked a lot about centralized exchanges um now there's been a growing trend of these um per dexes right or decentralized exchanges that have Perpetual swaps that are you know really popular products um and Hyper liquid in particular right how do you guys view this from more of a you know prop trading Market making kind of perspective does this seem like the future of crypto going forward or does it seem like maybe you know we've heard a lot about you know new perex launches being very hyped and maybe not really garnering that sort of market share you know across the space right does hyper liquid seem like it's going to kind of take a lot of that Mo over time if getting no I mean like what where hyper liquid is like they're not that different from like a lot of sort of predecessors and existing competitors like it's basically still very much a hybrid exchange like not fully decentralized they run their own validators like it's it's still not like your perfect decentralized Exchange it's not like I know you're perfect whatever like whatever crazy experiment youx before is doing doing for example um but I think what where they really shot initially is was the pre pre-launch markets right and I think that's that's ultimately the answer to like any new innovation in crypto starts with like something that not so many people are doing before maybe it's like you improve it like this pre-launch markets I don't know FTX had pre-launch markets and actually people appreciate it FTX for it then they stopped doing it because they I know grew too big to do it and then they blew up but um I think that that's how hyper liquid initially got pretty hyped in a way uh and now there is everything and yeah now now they're grow growing into this platform that where you can trade everything ultimately but they need to continue innovate they need to continue adding new features adding new things otherwise like there will be a new hyper liquid with some new noal feature maybe social trading or some FR FR Tech Clan I don't know like something like that the thing you never know what what comes next yeah I would say I have a lot of respect for Jeff right and I think he the way they they boo shapped it is very different from how the other prexes did it they took no VC money and um actually in in result I think created a lot of fomo for you know for bigger institutions to want to get exposure to their token you have to just trade right and to to form the points um and then obviously given that they're a hybrid model your your user experience is better than the fully decentralized competitors a little bit more similar to a calx exchange so people are happy to use it and ultimately I think the hlp Vault right where they actually opened um essentially them running um their own internal Market maker but willing to share that upside or p&l with with other LPS or users I think um is what got them where they are today but timately like if Genny said how do you be sustainable right after you know all the seasons of points and farming um how do you keep adding new features so that users stay and um yeah so again that's the question for every single project out there I think all dexes are still crypto native products right like the number of users is really not that high if you compare it to uh binance or uh okx byit it's still like 1,000th of the number of users now it is bigger users you know they're more active whales and uh you know serious Traders but um they don't have the Fiat onramp off-ramp there's a ton of stuff to do mobile experience like all these things there's a lot of things to get right um I think order books are the right format I thought GMX last cycle wasn't really going to sustain because it's not really a sustainable model having a kind of an oracle based so um I think the user experience is one like liquidity there has to be enough liquidity there and we saw dydx did a good job initially now it's a little bit kind of tougher we'll see if um there's a way to sustainably um incentivize liquidity right but without like having you know too many tokens uh go out so we'll get there I know every year we're saying you know dexes are going to take over Sexes and even CZ was saying that you know one day binance is going to be all decentralized but maybe next year guys we'll see you here again next year and see but directionally would you guys say that they're taking the right steps I mean it seems like you know there's a lot of um angst in a way right uh towards the new token launcher maybe the new you know um points farming campaign does it seem like hyper liquid or other per dees are taking the right steps going forward from a market making perspective right or garnering liquidity and attention or does it kind of just die out in in the next you know couple of months we'll have to see I think it's very hard to keep executing making good decisions but good thing about the space is that it does attract some of the smartest people um some of the best Builders very talented so um if they have good judgment and keep executing maybe we'll get there but like I said I think um most centralized exchanges are still relying on people wanting to make it and and kind of have that 100x uh experience and a lot of the industry is still being driven by that I mean you know even just getting outside and going across some of the booths you can see that a lot of the marketing is still kind of centered around this YOLO like moonshot kind of make it all back in one trade yeah all back plus some yeah no I say the challenge for dexes primarily is that they don't have a lot of mechanisms that centralized exchanges do have like they cannot give more throughput to market makers they cannot give lens of credit to to market makers they cannot give better Fe schedules to market makers all those things that centralized exchanges frequent frequently do just to improve liquidity so yes they have to rely on something like more Crypton native like basically given tokens or something like this they probably have to come up with more mechanisms ultimately but yeah that that's the problem is they don't have as much ammunition as centralized exchanges do and we were discussing backstage like at the same time you have the the very regulated coinbase style where it's just like massive tanker but it moves so slowly and it's eventually going to get there you know eventually they're going to have liquid per markets or eventually going to open up to more countries and you know it's up to the dexes and these like entrepreneurs to seize the market share and grow it and kind of establish a moe because eventually like that stuff will happen I think you know coinbase has shown over the years that they eventually get there yeah I think I think this is a big consideration for people right like I've been thinking about this problem quite a bit how much do we move on chain um versus you know if the space is actually going to get institutional adoption then liquidity should be coming to markets across the board right I really appreciate that tangent actually moving from there I I I wanted to talk about um kind of the roles that each one of your firms plays right I think in a traditional sense Mark we would never be doing this right there's no jump trading you know uh Tower research panels that are happening globally right so um I appreciate the fact that we have you know more transparency more kind of conversation with market makers here but what are you guys kind of building out that is seems like the future of Market making or trading within crypto I believe all three of you have like some sort of incubation within your firms that you know is trying to build product not just continue to prop trade this is the case right yeah I mean of course Tower and jump are not going to talk too much about what they do although you do have Citadel now strangely setting out sending out their CEO to all kinds of panels maybe there some kind of Ico coming or something I don't know but um I mean uh you know we just saw yesterday geny you can tell us you looks like you guys are doing some election coins uh Cala Trump coins that's very cool uh love to hear maybe something about that yeah know like in in general yeah I mean to start with that it's really interesting for us to experiment in the space and that's really basically our kind of like philosophy and strategy in general we want to it's kind of like I know our internal Mantra is well we want to support decentralization in the widest sense of the word and that means that yeah we want to see many blockchains we want to see many dexes we want to see a lot more competition in general and yeah somewhat strangely we even we even want to see more competition in Market making space as well because a lot of protocols that we incubate and a lot of products that we will be building going forward like we built bbop for example and incubated it and now it's its own say which is basically yeah compared it to 1 in compared to un for pack um but we don't want to be the only market makers there we want like SEL to Market make and bbop we want Ember to to Market make and BB we want everyone to Market makes you want ewf to Market make and BB yes all right there we go Andre if you're out there mark you make on bbop um it's it's the same as yeah with with protocols that's out there like so basically what we what we released yesterday is basically completely open Smart contracts that anyone can interact with anyone basically can mint Harris and Trump tokens and basically anyone can yeah use dexes or centralized exchanges at least those tokens to make a bet on them and the way we did it we like we first thought okay we'll we'll do may maybe we'll do the SMART contract maybe like introduce some fees inside like maybe M fees maybe transfer fees but then ultimately we s okay like what if we just do it as a I know almost like a community service we just release it anyone can list it anyone can Market make it anyone can do whatever they want and just do it as an experiment to see yeah if it picks up because currently we only have poly market and we love poly Market I think it's a really amazing product but I think it could use more competition on other chains primarily and like in another saying we did get a lot of demand from centralized exchanges to actually look at those uh like election kind of like tokens for example to basically for their customers to get exposure there so it's basically also yeah giving centralized exchanges a chance to participate on this I mean we we like to um be very Crypt native I think building and talking to builders all day is my favorite part of my job um I don't know about you guys I know you talked to a lot of Founders annell it's it's just good to see like all the Creative Energy and we do like to participate sometimes advise sometimes even um you know help incubate something and that's really like the differentiator between like a Jane Street or a citadel who they have all the you know all the quants all the math all the kind of systems and ton of money that you know they make billions every year in trafi they can invest and kind of uh beat our capex by like a multiple if they if they wanted to I think our Edge is we're kind of here early we're on the ground we can really sort of establish um enough of an understanding of the pipes before they you know inevitably start um expanding from ETFs into uh into other markets and for selini specifically you know we like to make sure we have the technology that these guys have so we we have the same level of developers and same level of infrastructure but we can really kind of get much more native into the weeds so that's why I like uh incubating as well yeah and for for Amber actually I think a lot of people didn't know that we have a pretty big onchain um engineering or blockchain engineering team um and also security audit team as well mostly just for our internal audits when we Deploy on chain but now we are also um helping a lot of our profolio companies um to give them free audits um essentially and and we just launched the Ember Excel Ator to also utilize the engineering um team and resource that we have to help incubate or accelerate other projects so even for uh some per Dees right they they come from the more centralized exchange background um not too familiar with the underlying Tex tag and that's where we step in and then really can help um and to jordy's point right working with Founders helping them on throughout the the life cycle of the project is what um what energized me myself also like from you know Venture backing them early on to when they do need uh liquidity or treasury management after they they list um obviously any other OTC needs um servicing their investors as well and um or building in incubating projects on top of what they're building um is yeah I think that's why we're in the same boat right we're not just a super specialized Market maker in space we are actually here to build this pip bigger together we've talked a lot about you know the sort of transparency that we have within crypto from the market making side but it still seems like we're far away from having a pretty honest conversation about transparency between Market making services and kind of what happens in this shadowy cabal in the back room um we were literally in the back room over there with the shadow shadowy but uh being more serious right how do we bring more transparency to Market making or is this just not something that anyone is really interested in doing I think there is a difference between like basically just like any Market participant there are certain things that we want to not being transparent like we ideally we don't want our wallets to be doxed ideally we don't want our I don't know withdrawals well the post addresses on sexs being dogs like it still happens um some of them at least and sometimes we get like well some of our wallets are just Associated uh with us Sometimes some somebody else's wallets associated with us okay that's this life but there are things that should be transparent I think like I personally think I mean like there are all those deals that the prop train firms have this protocols to Market make the tokens I think it's totally I think it would make total sense to make at least certain parts of those deals more transparent but important part of it is it's kind of like two people well two parties there are two parties to any agreement right so it's token protocol and the market maker like on I would say three parties right on Exchange side too um exchang I mean in a target market making agreement there are just two parties there are no exchanges there exchanges are mentioned but they're not party to this agreement well they have to list it right yeah but it's it happens like further down the line usually sure sure sure yeah um yeah I mean if there is exchange listing uh contract or something I'm not sure if if that's if there is a same like that if there is a thing like this I think it would make sense for for parts of this deal at least to be quite transparent so but if I'm talking about like our side okay like you have a loan amount you have a strike price and you have a duration I think it's perfectly reasonable if all those three things are open to public and those are basically transparent for sure but we we cannot like we cannot unanimously just disclose it like we need both parties to agree on this right um I think when you look at Market making deals it really depends on the size of the project and to be honest for every like major properly you know top 100 top 200 uh coin you're generally not going to have like a cabali thing going on you're going to have a really tiny Market maker loan where it's you know 3 to 0.5% of the tokens you're really not having situations where the you know people think the market price is is just it's like determined by the market maker and they just put it wherever they want the reality is like they don't even have enough tokens to barely you know trade a few exchanges especially nowadays I think last cycle was different we we you know heard some crazy stories with you know jump no one hear from jump I could talk about canab is not sorry sorry jump I think they were asking for 5% of their uh projects 5 to 10% something like that yeah okay at that point you know maybe you can really do a lot more um I won't say this stuff doesn't happen it does happen a lot of the smaller launches there are other Mar market makers not like the legit ones here there's other ones that will do Market makes yeah it's kind of like momentum ignition type of strategies momentum ignition is basically somebody just creates the illusion of a lot of buying to get you know hype you want to be on top of the the coin gecko percentage charts on top of the exchange also known as Market manipulation and Market manipulation I've seen a contracts where they write out um market cap management kpis yeah uh you can call it different things you can call it uh momentum excitement or whatever you want to call it unfortunately it works because the counterparts are retail and um they're also offshore retail in many cases so the US government is not going to protect you know retail in in random countries so this stuff happens is it a big problem I don't know if because ultimately those customers might be the the same people that if they didn't have this they would just be uh spinning roulette wheels and like digital slots so it's the same thing you know some of them will win and most of them will lose um however you know us we're investing our careers in crypto we want the industry to be very credible we would like the large launches ultimately to not have momentum ignition going on and you know I think there's not as much concern right now with uh you know loone sizes they they look to me much more like nisy kind of DMM providing some liquidity like nothing crazy for for the big ones yeah and then I would say that a lot of times these bigger launches um it's not just a solo Market maker right you you know we see each other on on deals a lot of times on every deal right here um and I think there is definitely misconceptions in terms of how predatory market makers are but to jordy's point it's um there's already a lot more transparent going to dis cycle for for the launches this year right and um I think the token projects are better educated um I think there is still like maybe a fair price in terms of you know what's the fair loan amount or the strike that can let us do our job properly and and you know be incentivized for the upside together in that sense but um yeah ultimately I think there is there has been increased transparency and um and at least you know for for the uh top market makers that we usually work with there is an understanding there too um and I think people don't know that we actually do speak to each other um often so it's not like yeah yeah thankfully a lot of the Bad actors kind of got washed out in the last couple of Cycles so nature is healing Annabelle Jordy eghi thank you so much for coming out here and giving everyone a great conversation thanks everybody for staying so late in being here and uh much appreciate it I actually like uh if I can end with one uh one quick thought CU just to loop back one thing we did talk about backstage we didn't say um one idea you know this obsession with fixed Supply like Bitcoin has 21 million for a lot of these other coins a lot of the problem does actually come from the fact that there's a fixed Supply and you know only so much release of tge this lack of elasticity and flexibility is actually causing a lot of the problems so I just wanted to put that out there for people to think about yeah thank you guys so much Che