Edward Snowden - The Next Threat to Speech - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

first off hello uh to everybody at token 249 Singapore it's been uh quite a long time since I've been in Singapore I think maybe 2009 uh and I was there uh working for the CIA actually the embassy that's not too far from you I imagine the world has changed a lot in 15 years uh but what intelligence services do really hasn't and and I want to start with that because while their practices haven't changed the scale of them has and that's what really brought me forward it's not that you know the government was spying on somebody they they've always done that it was that the government was spying on everybody and it wasn't that they didn't want to do that in the past but they didn't have the capability to do it we were talking about things that were the stockies you know wet green and now we see that creeping everywhere uh pav durov uh the founder of telegram was one of the uh people that I I tweeted about a few weeks ago I had hoped to speak about here because I think this really emblematizes uh what has changed uh so for those who are unfamiliar uh just a few weeks ago we saw a well-coordinated effort by the old powers to gain control over telegram by taking its founder pav durov uh as frankly a hostage uh in France now they had been complaining publicly that telegram which is not a meaningfully secure messenger by the way please don't call it a secure messenger when you're describing to your friends it's more like a a standard chat group that has DMS attached it does have one capability to send end end encrypted texts called secret chats but almost no one uses it right anyway the state apparatus of the US and Europe had been complaining that telegram had not been providing them enough control over its ecosystem the ability to shut down channels at will as they do on Facebook and everybody else uh to doxs their users and so on uh now because of some weaknesses in telegram's design as a service telegram did have this ability so the governments knew telegram could be doing this if they wanted to but telegram apparently did make at least some efforts to resist demands to share disability for for what that's worth so what happens uh durov is led to France under whatever pretext I think it's even public now he's immediately tossed in the dungeon and Presto changjo a few days later uh he's out on bail and telegram changes its terms of service that is the unfortunate reality of how the world Works uh when you don't architect Your Service uh to resist State interference at the the protocol and that's what's so special and Powerful about crypto broadly Bitcoin specifically U but you know is that kind of mentality where you design against the worst possible case uh to avoid the inevitable now uh in D's case I hope he gets out and once he's in a free place he genuinely fixes the design problem that put him in the hot seat first place uh by creating Service uh that does not put too much power and and data in vulnerable human hands you have to design your app so that there will never be a head that the state can point a gun at or they will do it but the real lesson here why it's so important is not about der it's not about telegram it's about us we are all entering a new phase of History where what we considered the more enlightened collection of States globally ones that had embraced the classically liberal ideal and I want to clarify here that uh I'm talking about the supremacy of the individual's right to themselves the right to decide and direct one's life rather than you know whatever it is that uh political parties are brand branding is liberalism today uh the governments of these states that used to Champion that idea are now some of those working hardest to roll it back to bureaucratize to fluence to nudge to shape to ultimately control each and every individual within their territory and Beyond to the extent made newly possible by technology this is not a different story than 2013 this is the same now in their defense these states genuinely seem to believe that this is the path to Utopia uh that they genuinely know what is good for you to a greater extent than you do because they're the expert you know uh everyone in this community you know knows knows the memes whether you're going to eat the bugs or or or whatever um the thing to remember is that this is a story that we have seen play out in history before uh you have the experts telling you to go out into the field and Kill The Sparrows and now we're in the moment where we're waiting to see what's going to happen next so it seems to me that the fight over Telegram and even the eu's new chat control proposal which if you haven't heard of it you very much need to go and look out uh for it because the EU is trying to push it again force it through in the next few weeks it seems to me that these proposals are less interested in surveillance than they are in control uh they're laying the procedural framework for the global control the voices of every volume and that's what it's really about it's not that they're worried about some secret conversation it's not that they're trying to shake down dur for the keys to some conversation it's that they see people talking in ways that they don't like ways that they consider to be misinformation ways that they consider to be disinformation ways that they consider to be socially harmful that they consider to be uh structurally undesirable and they want to silence it and that is dangerous that's the point of no return we lose that there's no coming back which brings us to modernity in all the ways that it's it's changing around us uh this was not the sort of talk I expected to have when I woke up yesterday uh which I spent much of the day reading about Israel's in precedent a campaign of what by all appear Point excuse me of what by all reports appears to be indistinguishable from terrorist bombings uh consumer electronics across countries simultaneously exploded in Pockets hands faces cars lost their drivers in mid most Pockets exploding you know at uh checkout lines at the head height of your children now it's not the first time that we've ever seen a remote bomb um but it is the first time that we've ever seen a broadcast bombing at this scale a message sent of our public communication systems that reaches consumer electronics that are lying in weight because this is how pagers work right it's it's not like uh oneto one these things are chiming back they're checking in they're phoning home they're just listening to the equivalent of radio uh they hear the signal and they go off the person who's triggering it doesn't know who you are they don't know where you're at they don't know whether you're holding it your child is holding it and demonstrably they do not care uh you don't need to take a position on the legitimacy of whatever the hell it is today Hamas or Hezbollah any of Israel targets one way or the other to realize they have broken a temp that is very very dangerous for the comfortable life uh that we in sort of the developed part of the world uh have cocooned ourselves with nearly every single one of you is carrying a remotely controllable device on your person that you have not opened and inspected for explosives you probably can't even open it and even without the explosives right you go oh I'm not worried about the mad right uh the battery in your phone in your laptop in your Electra car uh they hold tremendous amounts of embodied energy and even if it's not going to explode in the same Violet way they can absolutely Catch Fire you know you can go look at a a line of them on YouTube uh these are things that will not far in the future be able to burn your house down while you sleep as it's on the charger in the other room at the push of the button and who could be playing right it wasn't China the started this uh and this brings me to the the last thing which is the rejection of our Traditions by some in our our community I I saw this recently uh and I don't want to be unfair to sailor um be contrary to his point here because I I haven't followed it closely uh but I saw someone digging up old quotes here and they were saying I I'll read this that we don't need to uh talk about like the anarchist angles of Bitcoin we don't want to talk about privacy we don't want to talk about the UN interceptable design we don't want to talk about the fact that no one can silence it no one uh can stop it because that's going to make billionaires uncomfortable and they want to be investing in something they want it to be regulated they want it to be controlled they want it uh to be something that works for them and I I think that's absolutely wrong we need to talk about the rulin values of the system the crypto part of cryptocurrency that's what makes it special uh I don't care if it makes billionaires uncomfortable I don't care if it makes JP Morgan slower to allocate they don't get a vote because frankly they're coming along on this ride whether they like it or not the dollar is done uh Nothing Stops this train as when Alden says it debasement is baked into our models we see what's happening with the uh percentage of currency issuance the deficit spending uh it might not happen this year it might not happen next year might not happen in five years but it's very clear looking at the progress of History where these things end uh we are in the age of paper uh but it is on the decline it is coming to the end it's not about any flag uh it's about the method it's what the system is built on there is no basis no strong foundation so we as a community need to focus on keeping alive the thing that made our currency Prosper where all the others have failed uh less comfortably I think it also means recognizing that a lot of altcoin activity uh doesn't serve much purpose in the crypto space uh frankly beyond the delution of the broader crypto monetary base not all of it certainly there are some good projects out there but every single one of you in the audience uh call to an example to mind where you would agree that even if we dress it up nice uh it is just the scami form of rug lying in weight uh that you can imagine and it's happening again and again and again and again um people are seeing it like gambling okay you know maybe it's like a lottery okay uh but think about the systemic effect that this is having if it's not cordoned off if it's not sort of the toxic waste everyone recognizes for what it is and a lot of people don't I think people are wising up as a community more broadly but there's more participants right there's a new sucker born every day as they say h and we shouldn't be that way we shouldn't be exploiting suckers we should be building a new world because we're already there and with the old system right when the government robs you at least you can look at the road oh maybe I help build that uh if this community is instead just merely buying some excuse me useless jackass and even more useless expensive watch uh which system is better we need to be able to answer that as we occupy a more prominent place in the world we have to do better if we want to live better uh so with that I I just say look we need to focus on not being a part of problem we have an extraordinary opportunity here we have changed the world in so many ways and the world is coming around to listen uh they are beginning to buy in they are beginning to participate they see the value and we don't even have to argue it anymore uh we have a responsibility to be good stewards of the moment in history that has been created by us for us and that we will pass to others and this is to say when you look at everything happening when you look at uh the desperation for a new control over speech uh when you look at the rise of these new disruptive Technologies uh of modernity such as um AI the way it's uh evolving it can be great for us it can also be very terrible for us it depends on who is holding the levers of power and how we decentralize them uh when you look at the new ways consumer electronics are being turned against us uh from how they used to be in small individual targeted cases to now Mass broadcast level cases and you see leaders in our space uh trying to reject our uh old traditions the ones that are valuable the ones that created the space I think the lessons are clear and this is to say that we should defy bureaucracy we should reject modernity Embrace tradition and you'll save the world that's all we have to do thank you let's go to a question two all right thank you very much Edward um we do have runners in the audience if I've got a hand up I'll uh send a microphone over your way I've got somebody right over there he's already got a mic sir fire away all right thank you Mr Snowden for all that you do in the world um you mentioned the importance of Protocols are there any emerging protocols that give you hope for the new world that we're building yes I'm not going to endorse anything uh specifically I can say look I've seen a lot of good protocols I've seen a lot of calcified protocols uh Bitcoin obviously I have been a huge fan of for a long time that's something that really feels calcified to me we know it has a privacy problem I've been saying this every year at every one of these conferences for the last 10 years it still hasn't been fixed uh they're frankly not even trying to fix people like oh lightning lightning lightning it doesn't work it doesn't fix the problem it's not correct it's not a solution uh we have seen a lot of application of zero knowledge things that are useful uh we've seen cross chain bridges that have really uh become useful and exciting but they don't uh answer that privacy aspect I think the Privacy aspect is the most important uh problem facing crypto today because again we're talking about billionaires we're talking about big money we're talking about the states uh if you guys don't fix the Privacy problem you are going to be facing the durov problem whether it's your Bridge whether it's tornado cach whether it's whatever the gun is going to be facing your head uh unless you make sure that people can use your systems permissionless and privately all right thank you very much I know the runners are we've got microphone ready right down here thank you hi Edward Brendan from ARA block you're a wonderful human being first and foremost um I worked in National Security in Europe in the Middle East 20 years ago I learned a lot of truths that were unsettling quick question how do we Design Technology from first principles so we know it's safe big question I mean there's probably thank you very much uh there there's probably people who are in the audience much better qualified to answer that than I do uh than I am um I I mean when you look back at the the Bitcoin white paper I I think what you see is an adversarial approach to the system and that's really what you have to be considering a lot of people and you know I I don't want to name names but salana uh are taking good uh ideas and they're just going well what if we just centralized everything it'll be faster it'll be more efficient it'll be cheaper and yeah sure it is you're right uh but nobody's using it but for like meme coins and scams uh because if anybody puts anything significant on it and then all the states begin moving towards it uh it's going to be a system that has levers that people can simply just take from you you have to be thinking for the adversarial case as opposed to the convenient easy early case I mean that's uncomfortable for like a lot of these founder mode people who are like oh no we need the minimum viable product this that and the other sure um if you're trying to get rich that'll work uh and you a lot of people have demonstrated that they'll continue to do that but if you want something that will last you have to engineer it to last and that means thinking about how it's going to be attacked and making sure it can survive that because we at crypto we living on the X on the ground right you are at the insection you are where the bombs are going to drop uh let's make sure that we have roofs that can survive them all right thank you where's my microphones or people have either hands up or if somebody has a microphone in their hand can I get a hand with you in the back yes okay please yeah so you mentioned some issues with uh current you know governments and the past systems not working for the people but I'm curious to understand uh I'm I'm still skeptical that crypto is a solution to that and I'm also skeptical of what are certain models or systems that can help help move us forward from you know State control or being in a fascist State uh so I'm curious about some of your thoughts about moving into like you mentioned like a new world or like a new uh we're moving into a new paradigm um yeah I'm still skeptical of that I'm curious to hear your thoughts of what are the steps to take in that direction maybe it's not just crypto yeah thank you sure thank you um so look the uh bottom line here is crypto is not a solution to all the world's problems uh crypto can be a solution to some private or some some uh layers of the problem set and that's what's key right when we look at what happened in 2013 the revelations of mass surveillance this had all be done without any public participation without any debate even members of Congress in the United States uh where these intelligence agencies are saying you guys passed the laws that made this legal uh Congress was saying we didn't authorize that that wasn't Our intention it's not supposed to do this the courts in the United States said whoa hold up this program is illegal took them 10 years to get to that point post Revelation even when they had the evidence but they eventually say this is ille shouldn't be doing it uh the agencies keep doing it the whole time through right through legal changes through uh judicial precedence how why how do you control well what we realized is that law doesn't always work as a restraint on the state uh because it doesn't have penalties for the state when the state breaks the law right uh they don't go to jail uh nobody's going to slap a pair of cuffs on the CIA that's just not how the world works but what if we could enforce human rights through new means through math through Technologies through something that these agencies don't control that's the power of encryption it's the power of cryptocurrency you can create protected spaces that they can't interfere with now again that's only one part of the problem but it's a reliable part and that's what we do what happens when you talk about the new world uh what happens if the state is no longer in control of money uh you fix the money you fix the state and uh Wars have always been financed throughout history on the basis of deficit spending if Government can't just ransack uh not only their own treasuries not only their own tax Bas but the savings uh of everyone in their country and frankly everybody else in their country we're talking about things like the US uh where you've got the world Reserve currency you'll see a much more peaceful world uh at least that's the hope uh but we don't know uh what we do know is what we can do what we do know is that there are places uh that we can make a difference with right we're just technologists uh we're just people who see there are places where the law fails but maybe we can create a safety net for when that fails maybe we can put up more safeguards to encode our values that liberal ideal uh that the individual has some claim over themselves that Society uh you know we do want uh courts we do want prisons for bad people uh we want to have a safe world even if we don't want you know every other person in jail uh we recognize that it is a dangerous world we need some level of policy procedure uh to take care of that we need layers of protection right uh and the way that we intermingle these the way that we intermar these the way that we interlock these things uh is to make sure that uh we don't have a single point of failure where you get a bad president you get a bad legislature you get a bad court and it's all over you're done it's supposed to be the people that correct these systems uh but the people have been pacified uh we need something that is always working for us even when we're sleeping uh or even when we don't get a vote when it's taken from us because in a lot of countries that is the reality uh but if we can encode these values into our protocols they'll protect people not just in our home not just in our countries but around the world and that is the promise of these new layers of these new uh systems for interaction for Association for speech for trade uh we can give Freedom everyone everywhere all the time and it can't be taken away thank you