Navigating Crypto Crime in 2024 - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

good morning thanks everybody for joining us I'm peran boring I'm the founder and the CEO of the digital chamber we're a policy organization that is advocating for the crypto industry and navigating crypto crime has been a massive theme for us for many many years uh I feel like we've been having this conversation forever so let's let's jump in um why don't we just have each of you quickly introduce yourself and your focus at your organizations should have thought okay I go first uh I'm Michael grer I'm the CEO and founder of CH analysis uh like my focus is like ensuring that everything works I usually say I'm the janitor uh but apart from that of course spending a lot of time talking to customers being in this region for the last couple of weeks and a lot of the customers we have on the public sector so we clearly spend a lot of time talking crypto crime all the time hey peran thank you for having me uh my name is sudu I'm the chief product officer at M2 uh we're a crypto exchange out of Abu Dhabi and headquartered in the Abu Dhabi Global markets um my role is across as a cpos across all our products from Trading to derivatives to to cards and lending Mauricio bugman I'm the chief legal officer at okx uh based in California uh my primary role is to head up our legal and compliance division uh and frankly uh support my my incredible team to execute on our program all right thank you so when it comes to crypto crime you know I think in the early days and uh Michael I remember when chain analysis launched and you know we were having these conversations 10 years ago and crypto crime has always just been such a big part of the conversation in crypto it's kind of like this like plague that just follows us around where there's always been this perception that cryptocurrencies are this massive tool for criminals and that's really where the conversation started and I think that's really a big reason why you know chain analysis was was founded to help track and Trace elicit funds um so Michael I'd love just to get your thoughts on how you've seen the conversation evolve over the past 10 years from my view we've gone to this massive narrative that's been perpetuated that cryptos is hot bed for illicit activity but you know today less than 1% of transactions in the crypto space are elicit so what how has the crypto crime narrative evolved over the past decade yeah it's a great question and again I would say when chalis started we were probably looking at closer to 10% if not more that was eled Activity one of the Prime use cases in the early days we saw Silk Road we saw other things and then crypto started to grow and became used has been used for so many other use cases than than any criminal activity and if you move forward till today things have actually changed completely and one of the reasons for this is really the growth of the industry and the importance of the industry so we look at today we have the majority of all transactions on public blockchains are stable coins so it's US dollars that are attached to a token and flying around on the blockchains and that is a great utility because now we have a lot of those moving around that also means that if you are a butcher in turkey or if you are anyone else you will actually use stable coins for something you would also use them if you're part of part of a crime syndicate and that's amazing because it means that now you have transparency into International crime to a level that's unprecedented so this is actually an opportunity to solve cases Global cases that couldn't have been solved otherwise and I I'm saying that right and you go out and talk to people and say oh it's just crime but our customers and many of them are in the in the law enforcement space in the intelligence space and others and they're saying the same to me and they're basically telling this is amazing so we believe that like solving Financial crime by looking at the breadcrumbs of the blockchain will be similar to how DNA changed how you solved like physical crime on the streets and everything else and that would be a huge shift so we basically look at what I like to call crypto that it's like like more opportunity and less risk at the same time it's your digital DNA I hadn't actually heard heard that before that that's a great way to put it um and I I I from our perspective in working with policy makers one of the things that we have seen with blockchain analytics tools is when criminals are using this technology we're able to collect so much more data about how elicit Finance is put into practice so there's a lot more data about where they're sending the money how they push it around where it goes and all that data is data that law enforcement never had before and so then that can also have a big influence on shaping policy and strengthening policy um and strengthening law enforcement's understand of some of you know the most egregious criminal actors globally um how about either um from either M2 or okx from The Exchange perspective how have you guys seen the crypto crime narrative change over the years um where you guys are obviously kind of the front door of law enforcement and you your regulated financial institutions so there is a you know an impetus to protect your customers and to protect the exchange from elicit activity but there's I'd love for you guys to talk to that but also um protecting your users from new types of crimes that we're seeing on crypto users yeah maybe I'll take the first first part I mean if you in short it's becoming more and more sophisticated so if you look at the way that crypto exchanges have evolved over the years from an infrastructure perspective you know uh first of all they used to Outsource matching engines now we build all of it we used to then Outsource custody more more exchanges um create their own custody solution but kyt has been something that no one's looked at because it's it's so complex and so specialized that you rely on on firms like chain analysis elliptic and and the others and you know I've been a customer of chain analysis for more than 5 years now across different exchanges and and it's it's such a specialized Niche role because of the level of sophistication out there in terms of washing and and pinging it between venues that that it's something that you know I certainly never thought about look you know we could do this better because because you can't and you have to remain at The Cutting Edge and I think Regulators you know kind of trust you to trust them essentially and and that's kind of the key part of this yeah I think that uh as an industry we have to uh do critical analysis you know the our panel is navigating crypto crime but I think it's also not just defending against it but also dealing with the policy issues uh so one of the primary pieces that that we've been looking at is from a regulatory and frankly law enforce law enforcement uh perspective uh Regulators law enforcement they're looking at the numerator not the denominator right so if it's x amount of crypto fraud that's identified the fact that it may be a very small percentage relative to the volume uh that uh that we see uh is is a challenging argument to make to your Regulators or to your law enforcement uh you need to recognize that they're looking at the numerator and then you have to study what they're seeing uh I'll talk briefly about one of the reports that came out in the US from the FBI but it kind of uh as an industry you've got to understand what law enforcement is seeing because they're reporting that up to the legislators and that's going to drive policy for our industry um again based on the numerator not the denominator and uh that's something that we try to to understand and then you you know you ensure that you have a proper program um you know obviously from a from a compliance perspective uh you know a material piece is having the proper risk-based kyc the transaction monitoring which analysis help for us uh but also uh having a robust law enforcement uh engagement uh and in the industry right um you know I'm not speaking for okx just my observations uh you know that hasn't always been the case right some of the crypto industry was hesitant uh to cooperate with law enforcement that was driven Often by customers expectation uh that you may not uh uh freely disclose their information to a law enforcement agent agency so it's an evolving process uh but I do think as an industry it's important for us to understand what they're seeing uh and what is being reported up to our regulators and what is being reported to the legislators that are setting up or have set up their Frameworks in which we operate yeah I think these are good points I mean hopefully we can finally put to bed forever the uh the narrative that crypto is a tool for criminals given that less than 34% according to your report of transactions are are um tracked to elicit activity but at the end of the day policy makers law enforcement are still going to concerns until that number gets to zero which it will probably never get to zero and so we we we also have to engage with law enforcement we have to engage with policy makers we have to protect our users in this space and there's always going to be that role for fighting crime uh Michael chain analysis really has created you know one of the I think probably most well- read documents in our space on crypto crime uh and you guys just updated your annual report uh what were some of the most surprising or kind of important findings from 2023 I think there's there's a lot of findings from TR on on the crime side I think we have seen scams being a huge problem in the industry uh and and it continues to be and some of the victims are typically above 60 right so it's like it's it's Elder scams and something that will be of a concern also from from lawmakers and and politicians because when they look at those numbers it's scary sometimes it's uh you can you can educate you can talk to people you can try to help them uh but at the end of the day what we have tried to do has been to work with a collaboration public private sector we have an example of that in in an operation we did called spincaster where we were basically able to to create a lot of leads and solve these cases in a way smarter way than just letting each report tick in one by one and have have a have a agent look at that one so I think that's things that's been done there so that's one concern the other concern is that we continue to see nation state actors doing bad things we see out of Russia we see ransomware campaigns being being written there it's like clearly a nation St sanctioned and we see for example in this region out of North Korea we see huge huge activities in Hax and what we saw a few years ago is was like defi infrastructure that got targeted and I usually said that like a few years ago defi infrastructure L looked very much like Windows 95 in the 90s so you put it in the the internet and immediately it's taken down because security was not like perfect it was early right and today this has shifted to exchanges centralized exchanges because that's kind of where the money is and that's where they're trying to do that that can be done in any way from infiltrating staff with North Korean Nationals and doing other things and we see smaller exchanges is at risk because to have proper security people to prevent hacks like that is hard so that's another area one funny thing it's not funny it's eerie but like around uh like North Korean hacks is that there's a direct correlation between the the missile test from North Korea and how much funding they get out of hacking crypto wow yeah that's a that's a very real issue and you know somebody working directly with our policy makers um in Washington DC and other jurisdictions around the world the north Kore Korea piece is very very real and that information has percolated to our our national leaders uh and that in the United States we had a bill that essentially would effectively band all of crypto in the United States this was legislation that was sponsored by Elizabeth Warren we did a huge campaign this year to try to educate policy makers on why this was not the right approach and so many of the members who had sponsored this bill or the Senators who had sponsored the bills it's because of this North Korea piece they were told that North Korea is using cryptocurrency to you know fund their efforts uh therefore we've got to crack down on crypto Banning it is not going to be a great way to go about it CU we're just going to push the whole thing um under ground but the we we are now in the big leagues I think that's another piece of the maturation of going from a nent i disruptive industry to really a mature industry that's being integrated in the broader digital economy and financial system um again the exchanges are very much on the front lines um so it would be great to hear from um both of you about uh what you see as the uh you know the most important whether it's fishing attempts or other types of hacking how you protect users funds um and what you you think are the most important areas uh to prioritize when it comes to this yeah maybe I'll go first um you know having been involved in startup exchanges over the last sort of seven years it's a very common theme because first of all of course you don't have enough assets for them to make you know to be too sophisticated so you get like the let's just say the lower level of attack which is mostly around dos and and threats around keeping your sight down unless you send us one BTC 5 BTC you know that kind of attack which we see a lot of and and these are costly attacks you know hundreds of servers being bounced around so it's these are not sort of a university student in his dorm room or something you know these are you know pretty good groups but at a much lower level then as you exchange matures and you get a bit bigger and your brand goes out you you see it extending and becoming much more sophisticated fishing attacks and and much more much more sophistication around that now the good thing of course again a little bit like kyt is on that side is there are a lot of firms out there which have really sophisticated technology now and it's about partnering and using the right software to to continuously attack uh you know scan and look for vulnerabilities within your system but uh but it's a it's a it's a never- ending process right which is why the sort of the CSO and the team are always have to be on their toes and partner with the latest Technologies Macio can you talk a little bit about how you guys think about this and what types of systems you have in place to protect user sure yeah so yeah to to to to take a step back I mean first it's kind of identifying you know the the the the major areas of crypto crime and um you know Michael was talking about what what they're seeing um you know without commenting on what we're seeing it makes sense uh but I think that um about two weeks ago the FBI published a report on crypto crime in 2023 um uh and it was somewhat us Centric but it was actually International uh they've got a essentially a customer complaint uh process where they track complaints and losses related to crypto crime again more us Centric so the the numbers would be maturely higher if you you know really look at the ecosystem globally uh but a couple of things that we're looking at very closely is one um investment scams continue to be uh by far the number one um way to to steal folks's digital assets uh and that of course includes the pig butchering and other types of scams uh in which you know the scammers as we all know work independently and establish a relationship with our users away from us of course uh the other item that jumped out at us is that the uh losses number which they pegged at 5.6 million 5.6 billion for this report uh that the uh number one demographic uh of victims were uh individuals over 60 years old uh in every jurisdiction whether it's here in Singapore the United States or the EU or um the Middle East um you know senior uh scams against seniors uh is taken very very seriously by all of our Regulators as well as it should be uh and and and also by law enforcement so it's a very startling uh report that we're looking at and um you know beyond our own compliance program uh which uh we work with chain analysis obviously but beyond that I think as an industry as a large exchange uh it's important to work on uh user education right we are not privy to the conversations they're having with these scammers these Affinity scams or whether it's Pig Butcher and what have you uh but it's really working with your users and giving them the tools to identify where they might be subject to a scam and also the ability to contact their customer support uh if they have a question about uh some interaction that they're having but it is very challenging uh because um again you know the basis of these scams is uh their relationship with with with these entities um certainly on the back end I'll repeat it again um you know working with law enforcement and that's a material lift for for all of us right it's it's a resource intensive uh process uh but at least for us very committed to it Mauricio you brought up the FBI report uh now and I think you you make a good point that again until we get that number to zero and the likelihood of it going to zero is very very low at the end of the day policy makers are going to see whether it's Pig butchering ransomware attacks hacking fishing attacks and the fact that a lot of these crimes are focused on people in the older Generations these are people that policy makers obviously want to protect they're not our most digitally native uh citizens um what do you think the industry should be doing to inform policy and and make sure policy makers aren't just responding with we should shut this down but making sure that we can create a regulatory environment that allows for crypto to thrive but in a safe way yes so I I think on on that front it's kind of you said it alluded to yourself just before around like if you shut things down then it goes underground and just to walk through what a crypto investigation looks like when you're trying to find out leads is like if an exchange is hacked or you want to identify funds one of the best deterrence against Crime is that if there's no proceeds so if you can seize the stolen funds or if you can seize whatever proceeds are there that will be a deterrent against doing it so if you had a world where all the exchanges were banned and everything was happening on the streets it would be virtually impossible to create a network where you could ask anyone to seize funds today we have a world where thank God we have a lot of like regulated exchanges we have stable coin issuers that are maybe not regulated but at least working closely with governments and that now means that like if you do an investigation you follow the flow of funds and you see the funds sit in a wallet that might be a personal wallet based out of Iran or whatever then you can still seize the funds if it's stable coins and that actually happens and you wouldn't be able to do that if all that happened on crypto was underground so you actually need these choke points and need centralized services that collaborate also uh because today the industry is using a similar tool set so if a hack happens within minutes after those funds will be marked as potentially stolen and that means that they can now be frozen in a scenario where you made any any of these things illegal it would not happen so I think that's the story we want to bring to policy makers and people in law enforcement are saying exactly the same so it's just a matter of getting the policymakers to listen yeah so from from kind of influencing policy makers um you know from our observations I think that um the industry has has made uh material efforts to educate them on the technology and that's um that can be a heavy lift with some of the legislative uh teams uh but I think that uh this issue of navigating crypto crime um has to uh just assume that they have a similar report to what I just referenced with the FBI on their desk that's the last thing they've read be before they meet with you right and so I think it's important to educate them on how we fight crypto crime as an industry uh not only educate them on uh the compliance around crypto certainly for centralized exchanges but what chain analysis does and how it works and emphasize that the blockchain is actually an incredibly strong crime fighting tool right if you're trying to chase down some of these nefarious actors it's much easier to chase them down on the blockchain and if if they were using traditional banking channels uh but I think there's a gap uh in that piece of Education uh that we need to to push forward so they understand uh the extensive efforts that we're making yeah I do think the education is important you know Michael highlighted you where you do have these choke points the exchanges you have the stable coin issuers where they do have the ability to to freeze and potentially seize funds as well um but you know so much of the future of crypto is defi a peer-to-peer permissionless environment um so how do you guys think about defi with respect to protecting the E ecosystem against Crime so I I think again um defy there's many kinds of it might but basically you still at some point often need a service to to approach these things and also think so my thesis around where the direction of crypto might be a little bit different that a lot of the industry so I don't believe that we longterm will be our own bank I don't believe that because we tried that 200 years ago and the only way we could be our own bank was to carry a gun at the end of the day so if we had a world where everyone would walk around with significant funds on them well you'll all be subject to to like armed robberies on the streets in Florida I do yeah but but that would be the case and we don't we don't want that so it means that institutions will become important but institution will use this decentralized technology that we have and institutions will use defi but they will offer an interface to customers that keeps them safe from keeping their own funds and that actually becomes the perfect scenario again for crime fighting and everything else because you still get these uh choke points I don't like the word but it's basically the the scenario where you have centralized players that will help law enforcement with find funds that will will assist these things so I'm less concerned about defi I more see that as a huge opportunity to make Finance cheaper simpler faster and that will mainly be a technology used by institutions worldwide how do you guys think about D no I mean look defi is to me is you know I'm a big us of defi but defi see the same thing as kyc on centralized exchanges everyone wants the other person fully verified but not themselves and it's impossible to have both right so if we to allow defi to flourish which which is you know a great experiment for from product Innovation it kind of has to sit in that sort of bracket of uh you know we will build Tools around it but we can't actually go reach in there and you know identify who was doing what so you can you know for example tether is really good at you know freezing illicit funds even though they're not regulated and so more and more players who are regulated or unregulated will go to towards the same standard but fundamentally is permissionless and and Anonymous and that's the beauty of it and that's the negative of it as well but now obviously around it you can start wrapping things like Sexes can can help to seize funds there is um you know by there's insurance policies now coming out for both CI and defi so as those as the capital markets generally in crypto mature hopefully there'll be more and more guard rails that will start to protect the the kind of the more obvious edge cases around it yeah I think for for uh the evolution of of defi when it comes to crypto crime is really um understanding what the trends are and the data set you know the chain analysis data set uh you know what it is now I don't want to speak for you Michael but you know it's it's it's incredibly deep uh and I think that we'll be able to leverage those kinds of resources to uh fight against crypto crime on the defi side um I am concerned about the perception of defi again going back to regulators and legislators so I think on for that part of our ecosystem we we do need to kind of double efforts on educating them on what it is what the centralized players actually do and don't do uh when it comes to Defi and what are the compliance and crypto prevention aspects that we can migrate from defi to uh from CI to defi uh but that's something that that again is is um we've got to get out in front of uh and and I I I do believe that that's going to be the next um uh I think we all know this uh where our Regulators look next uh is to get an understanding of that of that system and and how it is that it operates and what we do as a centralized player within that ecosystem right and there's a big difference between a centralized entity that has customers and is taking funds on behalf of customers versus an environment where the users are not giving custody of their assets to a third party and that's like a big part of the line of when you become a regulated financial institution versus a software and for those of you who have not taken a chance to to um to look into it um again not to make it too us Focus but you know the C FTC several months ago kind of pushed out uh some guidance on their view of what pushes uh a a uh a defi environment to more of a centralized environment and so I think that's going to be where the battle is certainly with the regulators and the legislators to to kind of educate them and come to a consensus on what is actually centralized and what's not right yeah it certainly does pose new challenges but also you know a whole new set of innovation that can have many benefits for financial institutions traditional Finance um and and and the crypto industry as well uh another area of crypto compliance that I'd like like to talk about is is an area that I'm really proud of uh and something that I think more people should be aware of more users should uh uh you know understand how it works uh and policy makers should be understanding the benefit and that's a proof of reserves this is something that is unique to crypto exchanges uh so these are you know financial institutions that are taking customer taking custody of customer funds uh and can prove on chain where those assets are this is not something we can really do in the traditional Financial system today um okx has been one of the global leaders of implementing proof of reserves can you talk a little bit about building out proof of reserves what that was uh what that process was like and how this has added more protections for your customers and your investors yeah so first I should give credit to our product and engineering team at okx they they do the real work with proof of reserves but um really our our view um as the approv of reserves initiative was was launched that it's it's frankly it was like an a a a no-brainer for us uh we were very glad to do it um our uh senior Business Leaders uh you know went out and explained extensively to the industry uh What uh what we were doing uh and so for us it's been um something that is part of our standard approach with our users uh you know it demonstrates uh true transparency uh and we're um you know it's something that we're committed to and uh we're you know we uh are always cognizant of setting the industry standard for our proof of reserves yeah how does M2 think of proof of reserves yeah so we'll be coming out with proof of reserves fairly shortly as well well now proof of reserves are a massive step forward uh for the exchanges but by itself it's also somewhat limited you know proof of assets which are essentially liabilities to customers their deposits doesn't um is a good first step but it needs to be handin hand with proof of liabilities from The Entity perspective you know for example I could hold Mauricio um and Michael's assets but I could equally have a you know off-balance sheet OTC trade uh as as an institution with with another counterpart and no one would know about it so so it is one half of the picture uh the asset or opposite the liability side and equally from the from the exchange or institutional perspective you need to also look at all other assets and liabilities together and that's obviously through sort of you know compliant audits using you know well respected audit firms for example but I think together we it's it's a huge step forward yeah I completely agree I mean you have to have both the assets and the liability side to really get that full picture to ensure that you can verify on chain that the assets that the company is saying they have are are truly there and that you you can independently verify that um do do you does anyone have a view on how proof of reserves could be integrated into traditional Finance should is this an area where crypto is leading the way and building more robust compliance systems that build greater tools for users for customers investors and for The Regulators is this something that you could see integrated into the traditional Financial system um I think so I think with all things I think crypto is leading the way here um bringing it in together in a realtime kind of situation is going to be very very tricky the more complex you have because when when you bring in swaps derivatives things that are moving second by second all of a sudden you're not matching matching assets and liabil so I think you know proving that you've got the deposits you have in the traire I think the federal you know the FDIC probably you know guarantees that plus of course it isn't there you're going to prison so that together we probably make sure that you know you have what you say you do from a customer deposit or asset liability perspective but I think the more complex the organization the harder this is going to be to to do it in any real time format equally though I think having an audit and then finding out 18 months or 2 years later about something two years ago is meaningless as well so it's marrying something between the you know the lagging audits versus the real time proof of reserves is is is where we need to get to I think that would be the challenge for traditional banking as kind of a real time proof of reserves I think they would have to identify what that means in the in the banking sector right a primary model of of banking uh when it comes to customer assets is to actually lend those assets out uh and so and that's why you have those regulatory back stops uh which uh whether it's the FDIC or or other banking Regulators so I think for before we could do proof of reserves in in uh in banking uh what that means to them has to be defined first I think the model of all of your customer assets being verified on chain would be challenging in traditional banking uh and so they they'll have to figure out I think consumers would really like it uh but they'll have to figure out how to define it cuz it's going to have to be a different definition than for a CI crypto exchange right yeah I think I mean it's a good point obviously it's a completely different business model with with the lending um as well but you know after the financial crisis of' 08 I I work moved to DC to work in public policy right after that and you know so much of Dodd Frank the financial Reform Act was about how do we bring more transparency so this doesn't happen again um and here we are in 2024 and we still don't really have greater access to a lot of that that that type of data that that's really critical for Regulators to have so they can address systemic risk um so I think with technology with blockchain technology there is a promise to address that but it's more complex obviously than uh implementing an an exchange where customers assets are backed one to one versus where you're re hypothecating in the banking system um well let's move forward to talking about working with law enforcement so much about fighting crypto crime or fighting any type of um illicit Finance uh it's a partnership it's a public private partnership between law enforcement and compliance officers um or technology Partners um can you guys share uh I'd love to hear a story of a successful experience of partnering with law enforcement where you were able to successfully um help law enforcement track down criminal activity which led to apprehension maybe Michael start with you since you have the most experience we have a lot of stories of that right so over the over the last 10 years we've seized together with the law enforcement Partners more than 12 billion so those are funds that got basically clawed back to either if it a criminal proceeds back to government or otherwise back to the victims so it's a huge success it's not like everything that's been stolen has been flawed back but basically there's there a lot of successes in in these stories I think we have seen just to mention a few we saw for example um in a case with with donations to Hamas where we were able to uh to assist um to assist law enforcement with clawing those funds back and that was like with collaborations with stap coin providers on that front so we've seen that as an example uh we saw axi Infinity Hack a couple of years ago a defi hack uh that was clearly a North Korean hackers that were behind that we have uh in that just shortly after that we were able to uh get 10% of the H of the proceeds of the of the hack back the rest is still not all of it but lot a huge junk on it is still sitting on the blockchain waiting to be laed but also the fact that it's not moving shows that it's really hard to launder funds today on the blockchain so if you don't do it the same day you you steal them you might have a very hard time doing it which is awesome so again these are huge amounts of money so it's like again that also makes it much harder but that's just some of the examples of of successes the final one I want to mention is maybe um a case we were deeply involved in called Welcome to video which was a child abuse material side uh the biggest at that time uh we helped uh together with irsi on creating case material and running that case it was a global case 23 miners got rescued and more than 300 people that were were buying uh material and uh and basically asking for kids to be abused they were arrested and put to jail so it's again you can do this on crypto because you can actually see the flow of funds you can create International collaborations and you can make these things happen that's so much harder in any other payment system any stories you guys are particularly proud of in assisting law enforcement efforts um I mean so for for us I mean it's it's not really really a a story as as more just an approach um so I think when you're thinking about law enforcement cooperation um you know you get hundreds of these requests uh for generally they want Wallet information or some sort of user information uh but I think uh What uh can be very successful is uh if you have your own internal team and they're obviously conducting investigations on your behalf and when appropriate not every time but when appropriate is to actually leverage those resources to assist law enforcement in a constructive manner especially when it comes to blockchain analytics uh you know we deal with um law enforcement agencies from all over the world some have more resources some have less uh and so I think that that's that would be kind of my story is to is to uh use your discretion but be open to actually assisting law enforcement in certain situations with actual blockchain analytics and what your investigation was uh and that really builds a very strong relationship we are I we have time for one more question so sud who I'll have uh give you the last word and and I'd love for you just to tackle kind of the future of fighting crypto crime and what you see as the future of of crypto crime either what what do you see as the biggest challenge our community is going to have to face as we move into the next stage of adoption or what technologies are you excited about that are being currently built and rolled out yeah I mean I think from a technology perspective I know I know obviously AI is is a is a buzzword but I think combining sort of machine learning and patent recognition on top of you know kyt tools like reactor for example where you know we still relying on individual compliance officers or surveillance officers trying to you know launch a reactor on chain analysis and looking at all the bounces and you know there's going to be human error there might be some positive that to be negative and so I think combining that in a in an automated fashion with a sort of AI thinking around it is going to be the huge Evolution going forward especially for for tracking because right now M as Michael says you know a lot of these hacks are not being laundered because everyone's watching but years from now you know if they get reactivated how do you track that how do you follow that you know certainly won't be the same people around at the exchanges so how do you keep that continuity I think I think from a um you know regular perspective and from from the police and law enforcement I think getting everyone up to the same level of knowledge is is is the next big leap forward for us because in some jurisdictions it they're much further further along than others and and you know we can go to you know the certain places you know you can report things you'll never hear back from from the regulator or the or law enforcement not because they don't care but I think they're just too embarrassed or maybe they're just not aware to how to respond and so I think getting everyone around the world to a certain base level would be the would be the uh the step forward over the next few years because I think we we've establishing Ground Zero now the institutions are coming we now need to build up and take it from a two trillion asset class to a 10 trillion and 100 trillion love that I I think uh the AI side is a great is a great place to kind of think about what the next Frontier is and fighting crimes in crypto well please join me and thanking all of our speakers thank you