Gatekeepers: The Evolution of Crypto Exchanges - TOKEN2049 London 2022

good morning everybody thank you so much for Gathering here um in quite a far out point in London during a full tube strike so kudos to everybody in the room who made it I'm sure it wasn't necessarily that easy and thank you today to my panelists who are joining me it's always a privilege and a pleasure to be on stage speaking with fellow thought leaders in the space of course we're all part of different exchanges and I'm sure everybody would like us to address the elephants in the room but I think today is going to be very high level exploring the markets understanding what all of us up here have got in store for the future so on that note I will hand over to Helen at the end to introduce herself and we'll work our way down just like to introduce yourself okay my name is Helen I'm an executive VP of balance I've been in the binders for quite a long time and managed several functions you know including Global Fiat charity and also nft in the past great hi everyone I'm Michael I'm senior vice president and Global head of sales for bullish I've been in the space for two and a half years um kind of you know there at the very beginning of 2025 person team I mean we're a centralized regulated exchange with amm's built into the core of it to differentiate how we provide liquidity Juan I'm Grace Village in 2018 right now we serve more than 8 million users from more than 100 countries so some interesting things happen recently number one is we signed a partnership with Leona Macy so the very famous footballers he's our newest Ambassador and maybe number two like recent events happening a lot happening amongst changes so we are also one of the exchanges following cz's lead to announce that we will also publish our proof of Reserve from our portrait Reserve to show more transparency and confidence in the industry thank you and for those of you who are not fully familiar with Gemini we are the crypto exchange and custodian which was founded by the Winklevoss twins back in 2014 in New York and we're also regulated here in London we are also live in Singapore and most recently licensed by the Central Bank of Ireland where we'll be passporting into multiple European countries so I think on that note with the the note of Regulation um I'd like to talk about this just uh to kick off in terms of how everybody's approached the market here on this panel there have been multiple strategies and it's not my job to say who is wrong and who is Right some people have forged up path forwards with regulation not necessarily being at the Forefront and some some of us such as Gemini we've always gone with the theory that it's better to ask for permission rather than for forgiveness so I'd just like to ask my panelists here how do you view regulation especially in the light of recent events and do you think this will have any effect in regulation going forward will it perhaps expedite regulations coming in to create more of a harmonized global framework Michael would you like to kick us off yeah sure so I mean from our perspective we're relatively newer on stage in terms of an exchange we were launched in November 2021 with you know one of the main thematics being that we expected this space to be more regulated over time and so we decided that we would launch day one already regulated and you know I think it's it's one of those things where as you look at the way that you know other markets have formed I think you kind of see some similar patterns in terms of way that intermediaries start to form from a first principle basis but also you know as you look at kind of how risk is managed and how you think about broader participation happens I think there are a number of regulations that come into play on first principle basis and I think it applied in capital markets as well as in the burgeoning and nation marketing that we're a part of as well so I think you know in the sense of providing consumer protection and providing I guess kind of Market integrity and a fair playing field I think it's very important and I think that's kind of where you know to a certain degree as we're maturing I think it actually helps to kind of accelerate the adoption from a much broader perspective absolutely agree Michael and I think it's really important to everybody to keep in mind especially in days like today it's been a very very dark time in the crypto space and it's not good for anybody when there are these episodic problems in the market but people lose track of the fact that there are end users there are people who could be irreversibly hurt by these kind of things we all get caught up in the names of the CEOs and the companies and the billions at risk but I think regulation is as you say Michael you're touching upon consumer protection and that's just so very important as we go forward Gracie would like to add anything to that sure um I think when we talk about regulation we also need to understand uh what are the regulation going towards for so let me give an example using Singapore as a country Singapore is probably very regulative in terms of exchanges and uh big players in the industry because they need to protect the end users which are the consumers individuals however they are more Innovative on the web 3 space into in terms of those projects who need like Innovative space and creative supportive regulations so I think that's probably a good form of regulations in terms of what a government official is looking into while they are thinking about regulations as an exchange definitely we we also think it's very important to have regulation in our industry and we are also actively talking to various Regulators around the world Helen anything to add sure I think there are three layers I think first of all from the exchange perspective still today technology looking for applications so as an industry player we definitely should embrace regulation you know because the better the regulation is going to have the whole industry to increase the penetration rate which is very healthy actually to the industry and then there's actually even more harsher regulation we are going to push the unregulated players out of the market is also going to be long-term housing for the whole industry to grow because ultimately all of us being here because we do believe this actually technology is here to stay that's why we want to increase the industry penetration that is very important that's the first layer and second layer I think regulation there is actually need to be a two-ways flow it's not just one way it's not just about embracing regulation they're actually regulations should also Embrace technology I think one of the fundamentals is Talent flow there need to be more talented people into the industry that's why actually for buyers were very actively in the past one year attracting talents from traditional regulated industry and also Regulators extra Regulators coming to our platform to help us to build a more regulated business so that I think that Talent flow is also very fundamental to in a way to increase the regulation I think last which is also very fundamental the industry need to add values to our society because otherwise if there's no values it doesn't matter what kind of Regulation is so I think with all the industry players what we should focus in if we talk about currently it's a bear Market I think it's the best time to really building up some solid applications building more values that's actually for the industry to long-term sustain thank you um you touched upon obviously bear markets no one can really deny that we've been going through a crypto winter at Gemini we've really used this time to build and be really interested to hear how you've all used this season as well and I like that word season because we all know that seasons change an example of another upside I think of of what's been happening uh within our exchange from an exchange perspective and from a custodial perspective is that other regulated institutions or those who are newcomers uh perhaps start up spintex to the market they are coming to us a lot earlier maybe 6 12 18 months ahead of launch because they actually want to work with us in process of their application to The Regulators as they get their own approvals and they're using this time to actually build out their Partnerships their structure and to actually show not only to The Regulators but perhaps to their investors their stakeholders which gives people a lot of comfort that people are choosing the right Partners from day one rather than launching and go oh who should we use for this who should we use for that it's a much much longer term play which gives personally for myself a lot of confidence especially on the institutional side so would you like to talk about what you've done and seen over the last six months or so sure um I think during the bear Market we actually call it the golden window especially to build and grow for example earlier this year about wedding uh the past six months what we did a lot is that very contradictory very contradicting to what the industrial General is doing for example in this June when a lot of big players announced a lot of cutting phrase or hiring phrase and job Cuts we were actually one of the few exchanges saying that we want to recruit more people every at that time I only have 500 people working for the company and right now we have 800 we want to Target at 1000 at the end of this year so that's why I said it's a golden window to build a lot of talents are fluctuating flushing from other exchanges or from web to Industries technology Industries as well and we also saw some talents from Finance industry so in terms of this bear Market what we did a lot is to attract talents build on our products um and also like I mentioned that previously we have a lot of branding exciting events going on we also want to establish a better standards in terms of transparency for the industry as well these are all the things we've been doing for the past six months Michael you're relatively new as a player in the space so I don't know whether it was it was full on winter by the time you launched or Autumn but tell us about that that's a good way to put it I mean for us I think we've been in build mode since we launched a year ago and so to a certain degree it's been kind of one continuous Journey um kind of through the seasons I think you know just in addition to what's already been mentioned because I think we all share fairly similar sentiment around building um I think it's also a time when leadership really matters a lot as well you know particularly when you're operating a business or in our case in exchange you know that leadership comes in the form of having real discipline right having real kind of um kind of also way of being to pull people together because the larger sentiment it is not as you know I guess kind of um it's just more challenging and so I think in that situation it's like you know pulling people together to build and just reminding people that you know if you build now you can reap a lot of these benefits later and I think finding ourselves to be positioning to be uh operating in strength as the season kind of moves on to the next one is also quite key so I think it's both that sense of building from technology and product perspective but also the human capital as well right and building on top of the organization let's see Helen how have you seen this season sure I think first it's very important particularly during this kind of time to understand what's people's appetite for the industry because if even we talk about returns and bear and bull market if you look at the btc's price compared with three months ago yes there's a big job but if you compare even with four years ago four years ago I think in November 2018 BTC prices so it's five thousand and 2019 November is 7 000. today yes where I actually had a big job still 14 000. if you look at like a four years return this actually industry generating a very good decent rate if your time Horizon is well measured by by years not in terms of days and months so I think the First Fundamental when we talk about the market we need to understand when people coming into this Market what's their time Horizon and then do they really understand the fundamentals of this industry is very important because as I think during the bull market you know probably what happened last year you know there's a lot of fomo in the industry you see our friend having maybe tags written in three months time you just rush in but that's not investment every investment you need to understand your time Horizon you need to understand there's a social rated risk so I think this is a time to really reflect what is your original intention into the industry you know from the investors perspective this is quite important and as an industry player it's also very important what you are building as I said we're still technology looking for application but what's the fundamentals I think going back what's the whole purpose of what blockchain going to achieve look at what happened you know in the history I'm a fundamental believer in blockchain technology why is that I think post-second world war there's about 200 developing economies around the globe during the Second Industrial Revolution the big jump actually happened in Asia because they were able to take advantage of the Second Industrial Revolution and created millions of jobs that is their economic transformation and then you look at what happened in the third Industrial Revolution happened in the past 30 years you know countries you know in Europe in U.S who have been benefiting from the technological advancement but globally one percent of population is holding 90 percent of the global wealth that was not the real intention of actually the 13 Revolution third Industrial Revolution what actually achieved with internet is the free transfer of information compared with 30 years Circle got rid of a lot of intermediary today compared 30 years ago we were able to read news 1000 miles away so now if we are actually the real fundamental Builders of the fourth Industrial Revolution blockchain what we are trying to achieve in the next 30 20 years this is a very important thing we need to reflect and the ultimate goal of that should be free trends of values and that is actually very fundamental to thinking about whatever we're building that today is it really trying to achieve that purpose some of the things as I said I'm very bullish about the fundamental infrastructures for example I just gave an example on charity today in the traditional charity system let's say why in London if we want to donate 100 pounds to a poor girl let's say in Nigeria can have a wild guess how much of your hundred pound will end in the hand of that girl in the traditional System 25 you know we're not even talking about corruption because sometimes in order to donate hundred thousand pounds organizations have to pay 200 000 pounds for the intermediate players this is why the whole system is not effective and efficient same thing with remittances there's money transfers but today blockchain can offer actually a very great solution to make it far more effective and efficient four years ago with binance did we did actually transparent donation system we were able to achieve 93 of your donation turn down to be the food of the two on children's plate in Africa the other seven percent of the local Administration fees were actually the only platform charging zero Administration it's not about how good we are because the technology able for us to do that because blockchain is transparent trackable you don't even need Auditors every transaction point to point can achieve same thing actually with IC video and also the same concept I think applied to nft so I think it's really about in this time to going back to the fundamentals to building things actually really adding values to people in the society and one of the things we did in the past few months is well actually Ukraine and Russia world started we use also use our Technology Building some Refugee card everybody can donate to those refugees you can download even one pound when Europe all of them actually donation go into the wallet so that is very important so I think the fundamental if we truly believe as an industry we are trying to achieve the free transfer values we need to really focus in on some of the building fundamental infrastructure building during this time thanks Helen very very powerful points and um just to round that off I think there's a lot of data out there to suggest just from uh the human psychology perspective if people were to know where every penny of a donation goes um who makes that decision and who receives it I think people be willing to give a lot more I think people hold back of course when they think that there's going to be money just going you know like you say 25 ends up in that end person's pocket where does the other 75 go if we can bring that back bring transparency to the industry it will be very very powerful indeed so talking of use cases um Michael let's just talk about your exchange and the products that you're building from where you started to where you are now which is relatively short space of time but crypto years as we know like dog years how much of your products evolved and is that due to your own internal analysis is that because of customer demand where are you seeing things going in the next three to six months from here yeah so from from our perspective I think you know as as most people who launch businesses do right when you build something kind of without bringing to Market you make a certain number of assumptions and when you bring it to Market you realize all those assumptions have either changed or that um that maybe you actually didn't get the right ones to start with and I think what we've found is that as you bring something to Market and if you are able to incorporate a very quick and integrative feedback loop between your customers and your products you can then evolve and quickly find that product Market fit and I think that's what we've discovered for example with the use of automated market makers is that you know we first started building this you know it was it was not as popular this was like 2020 when we started this whole thing it wasn't until D5 summer that you know people really understood what amms were and we actually no we we realized we didn't have to put out educational materials as to what a name was anymore right so I think what's interesting is as we brought it to institutional um setting which is kind of where we largely Target we quickly found that there were certain things that people needed to get done certain jobs to be done and so what we've discovered is that if we listen closely to our clients then you know we make sure that we are addressing the core things that they are looking to achieve as opposed to Simply the things that would be nice and so from our perspective you know I think that the most recent update I can give to you is when we launched you know our our exchange with amms at the very beginning November 2021 we had a single set of parameters that the amm had fast forward a couple of weeks ago we made a big announcement about a release we called Longhorn just to kind of play with the Whole Bowl theme and the idea was to be able to provide customers the ability to set their own instructions what we call an AM instruction that has its own parameters around the boundaries of which the amm will work of the spread that you wanted to have and I think the idea is to provide more flexibility and that that that to us I think is is a combination of listening to our customers listening to the market and understanding what kind of jobs people are looking to get done because if you think about the typical let's say path to achieving an expected return in the crypto native sense it's largely been staking lending and then you know what what are the other options and the idea was try to bring towards I guess the to the table this idea of amms is another option or another tool in your toolkit different risk profile if it can achieve a certain kind of uh to return it allows you to diversify your risk and if it is able to take on scale then again it allows for a better way to achieve the job that you're looking to get done so that's how we've been approaching it sure and Gracie yourself as well you probably have to be very agile in terms of the products that you've been building how your platform has adapted what has been the biggest challenge for you in terms of coming to market and making sure that you are giving your target audience what they want um since we are serving customers and mainly retail customers from more than 100 countries uh well you mentioned about like when we started and what we feel right now so we started in Asia in Asia Market but right now serving um serving a lot of people around the world so one challenge we find is about localization localization not only in terms of language or translation but also in terms of user Behavior could be very different from country to Country even within a a region such as Latin America each country the user's behavior and preface are very different so one thing where we being doing is also recruiting a lot of people from that region who knows product well and do a lot of Market Research in each region so that our our product targeting each region could fully serve Cooley fully serve or better serve the customers need so I think that's one Challenge and indeed where like I said we are recruiting a lot of people so anyone in this room if you're looking for a job or interested in working for an exchange do approach us we have another 200 openings some of them in localization and product management basically around the world so so location wise well very flexible and then you also asked us about what's probably going to have happen after three six months in my own perspective I think there are mainly three things that will happen in the future also due to the recent incidents that happen among other exchanges so one major thing is there will be more consolidation among exchanges so it will enter we require consolidation phase many smaller exchanges well die and fade away and the bigger exchanges there are only probably be maybe 10 bigger exchanges at the end of the um the whole cycle but basically it will be more consolidation among exchanges I think that's one thing that will happen probably not in three to six months but that that is a trend that we are seeing another trend is there will be less um Mna sort of investment so for example uh as we know like recently it's not only the exchange business of um the compare the competitor the big elephant in the room is is actually fights or it's very more on their debt leverage of their investment arm so those kind of blind buying will be less in the future I think and then the third trend is probably towards regulation so uh The Regulators will step in more we've already seen them step in more recently and we do think this is a healthy situation but we also hope that Regulators can consider the fact that this whole industry blockchain cryptocurrency is still a very emergent market so there are a lot of areas to improve but it will need some rooms for growth for Innovation as well so these are the three trends that I want to share thank you we have a few minutes left before we go to to q a just like to sort of hear from everybody in terms of your client base and custody how important do you think custody is I mean we all know custody is very important but in terms of your clients where do they put that in the priority list is its sort of at the Forefront in the middle or is it the the afterthought um within Gemini depending on the type of client we have sometimes that's the absolute priority and maybe they're willing to compromise on certain other things but it's about you know unless there is Cold Storage segregated custody they don't want to be involved obviously depending on the type of client if you're a high frequency trading fund it's not about Cold Storage perhaps it's more about MPC technology but where do you think the trends are going uh from your client perspective Helen Jordan start sure I think before answering that question there need to be two fundamentals I think it's not how we think about it is actually how the institution thinks crypto is quite important do they believe crypto is a star of value or maybe they use crypto as a star of fear to diversity their portfolio and then that's very important so I think we today crypto industry is in a way there's so many links with the financial industry and then they've come the the fundamental understanding from the traditional institution investor their attitude towards crypto is actually real matter and I think the underlying of that actually the most important thing before we even talk about our priority I think education actually the most fundamental because today I think the whole industry we're still trying a lot of people still trying to mixing things for example people seeing the big job price of certain nft they say there's no future there's a fundamental problem because they're trying to mix the nft mechanism with a few lft you know pricing job you know talk about it so this is talking about you know 100 years ago we were talking about London Stock Exchange it's a few of the stocks you know are going down I mean 100 years ago now that all the stock last until today but are we trying to say London Stock Exchange the mechanism doesn't work that's wrong the mechanism actually has a lot of values I think so that's that's one of just the example I think in this industry there still need so much education to Regulators two institution investors and also even to players and most importantly I think actually it's two younger Generations so one of the actually I think is more even more important for the industry we actually also Finance is also actively doing is to doing more education to the younger generation because we believe actually if they have adopt more understanding the fundamental about the technology creating more applications that's really the future so that's probably my perspective it's not about how we think we should probably from Michael perspective understanding how actually the global shift of the financial system but one of the fundamental I as I said I'm a strong believer in Financial in blockchain because I think in a way going even jump even a bigger picture I think humor has been searching for good governance since Aristotle time even we look at today we're talking about financial recessions I think I personally would probably think we need to even look at what's going on probably there's a geopolitical recession why this is happening in our generation because Financial research is very easy to quantify it's in a few years but geopolitical recession actually normally lasts for Generations that's what happened in the history and then if you look at why this is happening as I said it's about governance are since Aristotle time where I've been searching a good mode of governance but whether it's a communist whether it's a capitalism that is a socialism actually they all started in a very good intention what really went wrong is human nature one group of humans after a while they're getting power things went wrong that just happened in the history I think now with false Industrial Revolution we get into a year blockchain technology going to play a very important complementary role actually to the existing way of governance that is actually what's going to happen in the future so whether talking about what actually blockchain crypto going to really innovate for institution investors I think the current Financial system has been lost in the existing model for the 20 30 years it needs certain technology to coming in to play a role to making the system far more efficient and effective that is the fundamental and then in order if company want to attract institutions money we need to build good you know how in a way we can improve the efficiency and the effectiveness in terms for the customers and that is more fundamental thanks Helen a great segue into q a um someone has a microphone there so we have a lady in second row just here hi there thanks for that great session um Helen I think you rightly said that you know education needs to happen and it also needs we also need to work with Regulators my question is what are the biggest exchanges doing in terms of bringing because there's a sunrise problem we're seeing in terms of regulations and you know regulate and one country is ready but the regulating and the country is probably not ready so why do you think it's it's not happening soon enough like you know uh we we see climate conferences and Regulators from all over the world coming together on topics like climate change but we don't see as much on you know on our compliance problems with uh with blockchain and crypto so my question is probably is like when was that going to happen and what are the exchanges the people who have power doing about it so that's a first of all it's a great question I think today even even for for us Finance I think we're still a young company where only we just passed the five years anniversary you know early days a few months ago so this is a very young industry so you how you can you for example you cannot require your five years old to pass a Harvard test right so there's always a different kind of stage there's different kind of expectations people need to have but I think the whole thing the reason we need to look at some of the huge growth of the some of their changes the industry is booming that's why some certain companies were lucky or not has been typed on the right Trend and I think for us what have been always focused in building is how to create values for the customer whether it's a customer service whether it's a product that's something we're good at because if you look at even binance a majority of people actually are Engineers that's something we're good at the most now we're learning you know be because the industry coming in we need to attract a lot of talent building up more on compliance and regulation so we're still learning that's why I said regulation we should definitely embrace it education is very important and it's all about attracting the right Talent into the industry to keep building that would be my my view and then so I and and in a way I think today people think hey you are big but that's not really we're still a young company you know five years old and then there's still a lot of things to learn to improve and also um you know to work with the others I'd say that you know greater regulatory Clarity brings confidence and I think as you know people are starting to realize that this is not you know a if a trend that goes away quickly that people will start to build those kind of uh Clarity and I think that's where Regulators are starting to move and I think it's a good thing to have that and I believe that you know we will see more and more of that coming through relatively soon and you know some of it's already kind of in play right so you've got Mika coming in coming through you know over the the course of the coming you know two years and I think that is like a pretty good sign of you know some kind of unified way to provide Clarity and so I think that the more clarity we get the more confident we're going to get from you know both I think institutions as well as others to be able to adopt thanks Michael I think the the fundamental is there is no one-size-fits-all solution and that's why the the big players are working in tandem with regulators and we've always worked very closely with Regulators globally to do our best to help shape that path forward and as Michael said quite rightly ecos come in that's given a foundation of a European framework now that's not to say it's perfect but it's something to start with Etc so another question please where is my friend with the microphone hi um I think a conversation about the evolution of crypto exchanges needs to address what's just happened with FTX and so I was wondering why in each of your opinions has FDX failed and collapsed in such a sort of public and spectacular way so quickly this week and how can end users trust exchanges if they're not transparent about their financials or the structure of their businesses and how are you going to win back Trust someone's clap I think that's that thanks it's obviously a great question and I think we'll all have perspectives um from the Gemini side you're absolutely right there's a very big Point around transparency and people have approached this in very different ways um all I would say on Gemini's behalf is that you know we are a uh or a fully funded Reserve platform that means that we have one-to-one what we have in assets on our exchange so if there ever was a point where our customers need to withdraw they are going to be able to do that and that has been our approach and that's been a very open approach we were the first custodian to receive the sock one sock 2 report so we have always approached everything with the level of transparency and we want our customers to trust us now of course we need to go out there and as Helen's saying it's just about education education education education and helping consumers whether they're institutional or whether their retail understand the differences between platforms that are being fully transparent that are being fully open compliance that are leading with security best rather than after thought Michael do you have something to add to that sure yeah I think if you think about our space it's a very exciting space and there's a lot of things that people are attracted to this and it could be different factors right and I think to a certain degree it's a question of you know where have you been drawn the most in terms of the factor that leads you to adopt or use this platform or that platform and I think you know one thing that we've consistently heard of is yeah like there just needs to be transparency transparency is key we for example have audited financials you know you can you can look at it on you know the the F4 that we've got with the SEC Edgar website because we're pursuing us back at the moment so there's a lot of transparency with you know with which we've been dealing and we feel like that's certainly becoming more and more of a factor that people are looking at and I think you know however other exchanges have dealt with it in the past I think there is certainly a narrative and a movement towards counterparty risks and credibility and that being a really really important way to whether or not you want to deal with somebody or not to us we think moving users fund is e-tolerant crystal clear so like Germany like Stephanie also mentioned we also have one-to-one uh found reserve and also like I said we will do the approval Reserve within hopefully within a month but we are also talking to many players such as Auditors so we've been talking to Big Four Auditors but one one question or one problem that comes up is also those traditional more credible Auditors they also find it um they can't understand the technology part of our industry so there is a huge gap in terms of getting the exchanges audited and being able to provide more information to the industry through their credibility but um that I think that's one issue we need to address as a whole industry I would love to see more players who can help us on this and I mean that's probably a big need among all the exchanges we will all be their customers um so I think that's one thing it's like what defends the the Auditors if I may just to play Devil's Advocate I mean we've been working with the likes of KPMG PWC big4 companies uh since Inception back in 2014 and you know they have full-blown uh crypto specialist desks that they've gone out to the market and they've recruited the talent it's not someone necessarily who's you know covering a consumer goods toy shop on one hand and then doing the auditing of a multi-billion dollar crypto exchange on the other and I think that a lot of the Professional Services firms are really gearing up now whether they're Auditors whether they're law firms accountants Etc uh you know they are collectively building their own armies to be able to support us as exchanges in this industry uh actually because yesterday we we also talked to one of the firms and we realized that um we we started to cook on that basically like you said they have some talents in in there some of the Departments who know this a little bit but in but firstly you need to keep in mind that it's such a big firm even those internal information flow will take some time to lead to the right person or right group of people to talk to us on this but I think that's the I mean being audited it's definitely one way to show more transparency to the to the industry and then prove the proof of fund that we mentioned earlier is another way to give more confidence to the industry and also like for bigot we also published a 200 million uh AUM kind of protection fund and that protection fund is within four wallets which is openly viewable so we published that on our website which is the wallet address so that everyone like every single one in this room you don't you don't even need a beginner account uh you can whoever can go to their website and check on those accounts because they're open wallets for everyone to view so I think that's another way to establish uh confidence I know Finance have similar funds as well but only like three or four exchanges in the world have those kind of establishment ready for everyone to check thanks Gracie unfortunately we are out of time I hope that you've enjoyed this panel as much as I have I think I hope you'll agree with me what I've heard today is definitely uh thought leadership and Leadership at its best and if I can leave everybody with an afterthought from one of our Founders Cameron Winklevoss he always likes to say that great leadership is not about making all the great decisions yourself it's empowering creating a culture to make other leaders be able to make those great decisions as well so thank you so much everyone