Navigating the New Frontier of Memecoins in the Exponential Age - TOKEN2049 Dubai 2024

okay I really hope that you guys are ready to get filthy filthy filthy dirty because we're going to this is no holds B we're going to talk about the ins and outs of mem coins we're going to talk about we're going to go deep into meme coins um when I was about to start the panel I was speaking to Santi and I said oh you've also converted into meme coins and he said yeah I was skeptical in the beginning and now I'm not skeptical anymore so I think probably that's a good place to start because I was also skeptical in the beginning and now I'm not skeptical anymore what changed your mind yeah for context uh been invested in crypto I guess since 2012 so mean coins have been around pretty much since the Inception of crypto right after Bitcoin um and and they've been a a huge Market kind of ever since right and so it can be frustrating when you know you're trying to reinvent the internet or the financial system of the world and uh a dog meme coin is worth more than you know defi it's market cap and you know often times no but the dog has a hat correct hat now it does it's cuter uh but but nonetheless you know I I think time and time again this industry has been discounted especially by people outside you know they've been critical of scams they've been critical of you know even Bitcoin now we have an ETF it's an Institutional asset class it is an asset class in of itself and so in that Journey the you know memec coins really initially for me were a distraction um but now you know it doesn't really matter what I think clearly uh you know crypto is there's a lot of entertainment value in the space and the ability to tokenize culture to token iiz uh many different things that haven't been possible before are important and you know Meme coins serve also a really important purpose of um you know being onboarding mechanisms right so what's to say that a a meme coin like whiff uh like how's that any different or actually better than a project that has very low float very low circulating Supply um and and sort of trading at this sort of very big discrepancy between FTV and fully diluted market cap you know mem coins uh are very accessible and people clearly like them so you could say that mem coins are the most Fair part of this industry for retail investors other than Bitcoin absolutely I agree I I would disagree actually it's it's sometimes are the most Fair sometimes are the exact opposite um depends on how they're they're launched and and how they are they grow right so uh like like for example we look into things like sheep and how sheep became sheep there was uh a lot of things happening behind the scenes uh a team accumulating that that kind of thing uh we look into whff whff right now it's extremely fair I think and it's it's it's better because there's no BC's dumping on you but it's I I I dis it's like so I think you're right I think you're right and I think let's talk about it but I think before get there cuz now you're talking about the real technical side for me mem coins serve a lot of good things in this industry and to be honest I was quite against meme coins I also said that they were a distraction then I realized that number one there were a very good way to get people into chains second thing is that there were a very good way to test change so testing chains in terms of how much pressure can a chain take on a launch how many transactions can a chain do second etc etc mem coins serve that that ultimate purpose culture I think it's an obvious one and I think I want to read you guys a tweet the Tweet came from Camila Russo she's uh she wrote the book The ethereum the ethereum book I'm not I don't remember what it's called the ethereum machine I think it's called she said mem coins might be to this cycle what iOS were for the 2017 run and what nfts were for the 2021 runs two generous views they were more they are a more honest version of icos and a more democratic version of nfts yeah I followed that up with a tweet where I asked people are you more connected to your nft community or are you more connected to your mem coin community and the reason why I asked that was because I hold some nfts but I feel much closer to the people in the Bowden Community or the horren Community than I feel to any of the punks or the apes or whatever else how do you guys feel about that do you think that memes are going to replace nfts as the cultural um token Alex um I I think that's a matter of price actually like the the the reason we are connecting with the Bowens is that price is going up therefore everybody's happy and everybody's like really pushing forth on the nft side is the opposite so kind of hard to connect with an audience I mean I don't know if I agree with you because the problem with an nft is that it's not subdivisable unless you use the ERC 404 standard an nft is not really subdivisable which means that nfts excluded a lot of people once the community was formed the community became exclusive and excluded a lot of people when you talk about a meme coin the community is very inclusive because with $2 80 you can be part of the whiff Community yeah yeah and not everyone can afford a 10,000 collection nft right uh there is friction associated with just the accessibility of of nfts but you know everyone can buy to your point uh uh you know a meme coin it's much more accessible um there's also very different C different categories of meme coins that we're starting to see this cycle political satire is one that I kind of missed you know I was looking at Bowden early on and Trump um I've been very fascinated with prediction Market this idea of you know the market tells you really good information uh you can price probabilities around that and um better than your news channel but actually me these type of meme coins have been actually really interesting to observe when there's you know there's going to be the US elections coming up there's a lot of trading activity on the Trump and Bowden um uh meme coins a lot of it is also political satire right the idea that it's not Biden it's Bowen right and there's nfts attached to that I don't think it's mutually like it's it's not either or uh Bowen as an example has nfts and has a meme coin um I think the combination of the two makes it incredibly accessible uh and clearly people like it and they want to participate I would gun to my head I would say that there's Better Community more scalable Community with a meme coin than there is with a nft collection that is uh Limited in Supply y I want to ask you guys a a controversial question the the father of all meme coins and I I mean I want to hear your opinion too the father of all meme coins was obviously Doge so Doge was we could say the the big mem coin is Doge still a meme coin about a dog or is it a bet on a financial system that's going to be integrated into Twitter cuz I'm very confused I think it's a ladder what do you guys think who who believes that doge is still a meme coin about a dog put your hands up so I take it the rest of you believe that it's an option around a Twitter Financial currency there's there's clearly interest because Elon is a big uh advocate of Dogecoin I've met with a number of teams that have tried to build on top of Dogecoin to build functionality at the end of the day you're tokenizing attention and when you have a lot of attention you can do a lot with that uh every team I mean bit I would argue the ultimate meme coin is Bitcoin and then like Bitcoin the this idea of fixed Supply is a meme in and of itself dangerous territory man I'm not that far away from him I actually agree I mean everything when you everything is a social construct Fiat the way we think about what gives value to the world where we divert our attention a meme coin is just encapsulating that so you can create a mean coin out of anything we can create a mean coin out of this panel how stupid we are about this like I see a difference I I got to be honest I see it different I see every single project in crypto as a meme some are just more transparent than others except the layer ones except the layer ones I see every project in crypto as a meme until it actually proves that it has a use case a real use case with adoption and users like a DEX like a DEX but otherwise to me I've started to treat every single project in crypto as a cultural Meme and until the project can prove to me that that project has real utility and real users I separated from the meme into a useful project that's why in my mind doge is no longer a mcoin it was a mcoin and now it's become a financial system that may or may not be into integrated into Twitter and the price of that option is currently trading at $5 billion or whatever or seven out of I haven't looked at the market cap but you're paying a $7 billion option that this is going to be integrated into mcoins I don't know how you feel about that doge is transcended everything I think in that sense that it's kind of like Elon Musk using Dodge to to make a mockery of uh of our financial system that's kind of like I think the fundamental piece of of of Dodge is that the second one is Twitter right is integrating it as a as as a currency as you say so are meme coins allowed to have functionality yeah Bonk Bitcoin you you could argue on the margin that the purest memes uh don't have functionality there are obviously C people that think you something like Bon there's Bon bought there's a team behind it there's a lot of utility that they've trying to integrate um and you know obviously it's difficult to understand why it's underperformed other memes uh since that since then like in November of last year they started rolling out a lot of utility people within the salana community were critical of that they're like look a meme should just be pure there there's it's like nfts when they started promising utility it's like no just keep it pure I mean crypto punks are crypto punks because they don't pretend to be anything else other than art um your question around how much is priced in and doge is a really good one I I mean I haven't thought about it it's hard to kind of tell how much of it is that Elon El said tomorrow not integrating Doge into Twitter ever it's against the US law what is the price of the Bitcoin of Doge minus 40% in I would argue it's not minus 40 Doge has been uh I mean it's traded off it's alltime high obviously as everything else in crypto but it has been it's lasted and endured so many different Cycles um the price of Doge I mean TW Elon has been talking about Doge but not even hinting about it being use ful and paying for Teslas and whatnot and Doge was at his alltime high El was not even intimating that it was going to be used for anything else other than it's just a fun meme so near term yeah there might be some price action associated with that but I think long term I think uh so so I bought we bought with pleaser the original nft of Doge the dog uh um it's own by Japanese uh person and so we we bought that nft we owned the first picture of that dog uh and we fractionalized it because we think it's incredible just value of like the dog itself it's such a recognizable piece of culture that has value I don't think you need to embed it in the financial system I don't think it has to have any utility because people like it I think memes to me as I said I was against memes and I realized that actually the reason why we're all here and I'm going to call it spade a spade I hope no from the outside judges us but if you're here you're probably in the same head space as I am we're all here because we're gamblers let's just be honest I mean yes I claim to be an investor but I'm actually here because I'm a gambler and so far the best use case for blockchain is gambling the reason why I enjoy it so much is because I like investing in very small shitcoins and hoping that they're going to go from $10 million market cap to a billion dollar market cap and yes I understand the technology But ultimately I'm gambling and I think that mem coins are the cheapest and most fun way of gambling that I found in the blockchain world I don't know how you feel about that I would I I would make a distinction between gambling and speculating and there's a there's Nuance there I mean it's the same thing no it's not it's the same thing it is definitely not the same thing gambling gambling and speculation with spec whenever you're investing you're speculating you believe that something will happen you you have I believe the price will go up yeah that's there's there's speculation in everything that you do in investing gambling is using 100x leverage to go long in that on that investment gambling puts you in a position where you can no longer play the game we're speculating you you speculate on everything not just when you're investing okay so then I'm not a gambler I'm just a Speculator well I mean I don't I don't disagree with the notion that there's a lot of entertainment value in crypto it's a 247 365 Caso we' constantly hear this there's a lot of value in that in it's a speculation Casino there is correct there's also gambling and I I think that there's a distinction be because I mean for me that was a realization like some people gamble in this industry they get liquidated constantly can I ask you a question yeah sure and I'm not mentioning any names but today I saw a Dap that promised me that they was going to scan every human's hand using a mobile phone I'm not going to mention name Nam I'm not mentioning names and they are going to use that as proof of realness in the AI world and I also saw a cat with a hat and they promised and they both promised me that their price is going to go up which one has a more chance of price going up well I would I would be skeptical of anyone promising you the price goes up because no one can guarantee that I'm just saying to me there's no difference between an app that's going to scan the hands of every human in the world and a cat that's got a hat well the thing about the cat with the hat is it competes with a lot of cats and a lot of you know penguins and dogs and there's so many of those the hand thing competes with World coin and another one it's it's it was like you know 63 billion FDB World coin or more somewhere around there yeah we can have discussions about worldcoin and the we're going down this path where like we're discrediting the use Cas this technology has incredible applications for coordination now you can coordinate many things you can coordinate attention you can coordinate humans to do certain particular type of action like mining a cryptocurrency that purly has some value which was Bitcoin in the early days Bitcoin in the early days was an ultimate meme like think about this idea you're going to convince people to expend energy to mine something called Bitcoin and have them believe that it has some value that at the time people don't remember this because they don't appre at the time that was ludicrous I AG now Bitcoin is worth 69,000 or 61,000 and all of a sudden Bitcoin has an ETF and all of a sudden Bitcoin is solidified itself into a digital gold narrative like it's important to like encapsulate these moments of like history because people forget that in the early days Bitcoin was a mcoin let me give you another example let me give another example I'll take you to where I think memecoins the more serious part of mcoins I remember when crypto kitties launched on ethereum and the network stopped you all remember that and at the time we were all angry that this chain that was supposed to democratized finance was being clogged up by a bunch of cats fast forward one cycle later that became the nft and the nft is now probably the platform for all ticketing identification everything else in the world this is what I see about meme coins if you're in fashion your job is to try and forecast what the next trend is going to be around Fashion give you a simple example is it going to be a v-neck or is it going to be a round neck is it going to be a high shoe or is it going to be a low shoe I think that what meme coins do is they allow people to see Trends before they happen in a very fun way what's going to be culturally relevant and what's not going to be culturally relevant I call mem coins the biggest rette in the world and except the rette you actually control the outcome and you can take bets on what's going to be more popular is it going to be a high heel shoe or a low heel shoe is it going to be a dog or is it going to be a cat is it going to be a hat or is it going to be a cap and I think what we've created is we've created a different type of prediction Market that is actually driven through culture and profitability and I think that that's one of the real world use cases that we have for crypto well let me uh give you an example like uh you look at the US presidential elections when Trump won perfect example you have all these political pundits Nate silers of the world uh CNN uh no one predicted Trump would win why because most people in the uh voters were actually afraid to say they were going to vote for Trump um so clearly information propag like there was there was something wrong in predicting these things why because there's no value right when you hear a political analyst or an econ like a financial analyst or or when you hear someone like me talk about something like a mem coin the first thing you should ask yourself is how much value have I actually put on the line when I'm saying I actually you know like mem coins the answer is a lot so it's important to understand when you're transacting value it's a prediction Market that there's a very strong signal un if you're not transacting value it's kind of all really and that's what when you see the media when you see political experts talk about you know their predictions you know even economists there's no value behind they're not staking they're certainly staking their reputation You could argue but they're not staking Financial value markets on the other hand are transacting value constantly about you know is the hat is a dog with a hat worth more than a cat with a hat uh or is Bowden worth more than Trump democratized prediction Market the market is the true Arbiter of Truth and so why because there's value transacted crypto in and of itself allows for the it's a it's a global untethered Capital Market and you've never had that and so that's really the novelty is that now you're tokenizing things Concepts and you're letting the market sort of run its course and come up with a certain price in real time about these things and so there's a lot of signal to your point it's a really good one could you tokenize and could down the line a fashion expert be looking at a meme and saying hey maybe we should sell the the dog with uh with hat hats I would buy it I think that what you're saying is that it's a democratized prediction Market that anyone can participate in and has something to gain or lose and I think that that's that's where you hit the nail on the head I I take way more stock in in a market that is telling me information real Time That's crypto that's a meme that's Bitcoin like look at um 3 in the morning I I woke up uh there's obviously this news around uh you know Iran and Israel escalation financial markets are closed some markets not all of them are open crypto all of a sudden reacts in real time so that in of itself is telling you in real time how the financial markets are pricing in risk and people in the traditional financial industry are looking at that as the barometer of risk over on the weekends when markets are not open and so that in of itself is a really strong signal what I'm going with all this is meme coins are an extension of that you woke up when I went to sleep just for the record um I want talk about how fair meme coins actually are and Alex you touched on this point before and I think that majority of people believe that mem coins are very fair on retail investors um to be honest we're launching a memec coin tomorrow it's called gummy and I I want to walk you through this not because I want to show the coin because I actually want you not to buy the coin um but one of the things that I've learned about launching a coin is that it's actually not as Fair as you think and the reason why it's not as Fair as you think is because what happens is as the coin is launched snipers buy up the majority of the supply and unless you're a genius and you know how to read onchain data you probably don't know this and you think that you're buying into a retail coin one of the biggest things that worries me about our coin and every coin launch is that it will get sniped and then you'll have non-community members SL Bad actors holding a big part of the coin and then dumping the price after everyone gets in with that in mind yeah how bought it or how how fair is this game to the retail investor and how can the retail investor actually protect themselves and play the fun game without getting screwed by like they were screwed by the VCS in pre-sales how can the retail investor play this game without getting screwed it it's not fair actually at all now the same thing happens with all coins not just mem coins so the difference is on mem coins you only have snipers dumping on you on other coins you have BCs and snipers dumping on you pretty much so on a mem coin you can if you are slow you can wait out you can study onchain data and and study what's happening behind the scenes and wait for the right time to get in but the truth is as you say run the biggest problem is that with respect with the VC game the token comes to the market it's got a 1 billion valuation or a 500 million valuation it's quite hard to snipe that with meme coins they create them with such small liquidity that the opening market cap is $40,000 and for the sniper to snipe up 80% of the supply he needs 36 he needs $32,000 and he has 80% s the supply in his pocket it's not an issue of meme coins it's just me we had that in the Ico I mean it's not me because in this case the sniper actually holds the coins no no no I mean it is M right because the ability for the sniper to boted like just paying a minor to actually process the trans or the validator to process of transaction includer in the block it is Meb it's a fundamental architecture problem that is not inherited mean May right it's just an issue of of a liquidity thing is initial liquidity I mean the more interesting question is um some some mem coins projects purport it to be you know this sort of like Fair launch when in reality you know there's it's important to understand where in inspect where where the distribution of these mem coins are going there's some developers that are keeping a lot of these supply for themselves funny enough the market ultimately finds this out and those meme those projects are not successful uh the most successful projects in my in my opinion if you look at it are the ones where mostly an anonymous team and they actually either burn most of the supply or distribute it and though they don't keep much to themselves now there there's not like a Playbook to all of this uh I think people should be compensated for their work um but let on a relative on a relative scale it does bring us meme coins do bring us back closer to um icos which were a fair game to investing uh or speculating or gambling what however you want to call it um than the current construct of private rounds uh multiple private rounds and then a token launch with this very big discrepancy between circulating Supply like look at worldcoin you know just as an example and it's not just the problem of worldcoin but worldcoin has like a$ 1220 billion do fully diluted market cap and I know FTV is a meme but um every who in their right mind thinks that worldcoin is going to do a 10x from here I mean it's very challenging when you look at the supply mission of worldcoin or many projects and say do you actually support this valuation and the answer is most likely not probabilistically World coin supporting $120 billion valuation is kind of ridiculous I understand but whereas a memec coin at least you understand all the coins are in circulation agree it's an actual Fair like when you think about when you're calculating okay what is it what is this project worth I would argue you couldn't sell your R coin tokens which are mostly concentrated in the hands of people that are locked and get that price the market like in the order book you probably know this better than I do you can't you you cannot clear that price but Santi one of the things that that is more fair about the Ico Ido private sale thing is that at least you know what valuation the VC's got in at what their unlock schedules are so at least you know the rules of the game you know that if if I'm buying World coin 90% of the supply is locked up 80% of it's in Sam ulman's left pocket 5% is in his right pocket and that and the rest is with his sister you know that because it's it's written and you know what the valuations were and you know what the unlock schedules are the thing that worries me about meme coins is that look I'm going to be honest because no one wants to talk about it but I'm going to be honest the devs are launching coins first of all uh if if if I don't make it to tomorrow I've got no plans of committing suicide just so you know so the problem is that the devs are launching coins in the same block or in the second block they sniping up their own coin and then you feel that you're buying a Fair coin in the market and later on when the thing gets to 100 million 10000 billion doll valuation the anonymous devs who have nothing to lose are feeding those tokens back to you but and exiting and at least when I play the VC game okay I'm getting good but I know the rules and I know when the unlocks are going to happen and I know who's dumping on me and I know what they paid yeah also know which wallet's dumping on you for the meme coin what I would argue though is memec coins actually distribute all of the supply at once and so for the most part and so you don't have this like very weird skewedness between circulating and fully diluted and so the price is actually a better barometer real that you do actually when when the liquidity the initial liquidity is very low yeah the ratio is absolutely bananas I don't think you understand how bad the game is I'm going to be honest and again I have no plans of committing suicide just if just so everyone everyone knows but some of the proposals I was looking at for people to help us launch our mcoin they said to us look would you like us just to launch it it costs you ,000 if you would like us to launch it and snipe 80% of the supply and distribute it into 500 different wallets so no one would ever know and then send it to a centralized exchange over time this is the price yep I mean that's the game yeah I mean inherently no different than other coins um I would argue the probability of a meme coin project doing that to be successful is much lower because when makes a mem coin a meme coin like every other project is this idea of a community now good luck trying to sell that 80% Supply over time well there there are counter examples actually like Pepe Pepe Pepe is exactly examp exactly that is the yeah that's that's what they did and I wanted to say is that the true fairest mem coins actually what they need is ironically be more like slur like an IC like slurf like you need you actually need very high liquidity and you need a pre-sale to Fed into that high liquidity because if you have high liquidity the snipers get a tiny percentage of the supply you cannot get rid of snipers so the these Fair coins that try to be fair actually many of them actually try to be fair they get sniped up and they basically you have snipers eating everybody's launch and make a lot of money and everybody loses and it's like a you know a bir Khalif I mean just you pump fun mechanism which is a bonding curve which is people submit their so like you have a meme for instance the proper mechanism you talk which is right is you have a m you have an idea right you're going to launch a whatever an elephant meme coin um you put it on pump. Fon or some as an example the community comes in expresses interest puts in their bids and in a bond in curve based on the demand you price it and then people get their allocation meaning to your point higher liquidity and more distribution and you know yes there's always going to be snipers but at least there's a more fairly distributed out of the gate coin and you avoid this problem so I think what you're saying is that like the Ico process which evolved into the Ido process I think this the the process of issuing meme coins has to change over time to be more fair yeah well it's already liot like I would argue a lot of the activity you're seeing in pump pumped out fun which is a project in salana is that there's all these different memes being created and it is a bonding curve mechanism which is in my opinion probably one of the fairest distribution mechanisms for for projects right uh it's a very novel like like auction type of clearing mechanism which is based on the initial interest and demand um and then over time of course you know the market will dictate the price but at least initially you allow participants to express their interest put in their bids you have a clearing price based on you know very clear mechanism which is a bonding curve and then you know out you go guys we got like five six more minutes uh we could carry on but I suspect that there may be some questions in the crowd and I think this is a very fun topic so let's let's do some questions and then uh I mean yeah I mean we could we could go on for hours about meme coins and certainly but if we could just yeah maybe this this gentleman over here the um hi thank you for the talk today uh my name is Rashad I'm with doyi um I really enjoyed your conversation about Doge I really think there's a lot of growth in ecosystem but I also wanted to get some of your thoughts on growth with respect to uh defi around meme tokens and particularly within Doge or other ecosystems thank you uh I I couldn't hear very well unfor I'm not sure understand the question you want to know the growth of defi around Doge yeah like do you have any thoughts like so right now meme tokens are primarily just like bought and sold right like do you have any thoughts on like on how D5 might evolve around meme tokens well yeah I mean you can uh Take Your Meme coin uh and put it and you know Bor against it it or trade it I mean that's look there's a lot of financial activity like a lot of a lot of so take a look at the most active trading pairs like whiff in any given day sometimes do more volume than Bitcoin pairs in exchanges so uh and also you know decentralized exchanges like there's a ton of volume for meme coins uh and you know people can use it as collateral and that functionality is no different than another token right I don't see any uh credible lending protocol giving you a 2:1 ratio of loans against a do a cat with a hat I got to be honest that said we are currently doing an experiment ourselves to see if wait wait wait a minute how's that any different from giving uh you know allowing people to bar against their Picasso you said it the one is uh speculation and the other one is no no no I mean hold on wait a minute you're just talking about like there's a very robust Market of trading volum like for for these meme coins uh I think there's a huge Market to lend against them at the right risk okay maybe right it's just a matter of like how much LTV you're going to give uh I I agree they're more volatile and that dictates the interest rate and the you know your collateral quality is lower perhaps than Bitcoin but I would argue it's it's better than worldcoin something I want to add there is some of these MIM coins like whiff they have a like 40 daily uh daily volume is like 20 $40 million so this uh on on dexes alone and uh these dexes the the lp is generating 2% 20 bips yeah that's a lot of money that's that basically is feding into the def ecosystem and spreading around and they generate more volume than absolutely anything actually aside of Solana and US highest trading volume of all tokens in the first quarter in the in the last quarter was mem coins not only that I mean that when you want to if you think about the quality of the collateral right as an example your ability to liquidate if if the price goes down to liquidation price your ability to liquidate a meme coin like whiff or Bon or or doge is actually much easier given the liquidity not only decentralized but centralized exchanges than your world coin which has all going to get a cease and assist from Sam ultimate a it's a matter of flows the qual like if if I were running a or uh Camino or with some of these dcent what you care about is like how easily can you clear that collateral if you want to liquidate it meme coins are they're taking up the most amount of volume I can see this and centralizing I have this this image in my head of a meme coin DJ while the Market's crashing jumping from platform to platform looking to stake his giraffe cat so that he can get leverage to buy the dip uh we got another question here yeah thanks guys for taking questions uh Alex briefly mentioned Pepe and how it started and it's did you say it was like more centralized and a little bit uh more organized and has it decentralized now going kind of into the election I mean I'm not part of the Pepe team but I I you hear things basically so it was snif to the devs had a big supply of the token and over time they are or have released it and by the way I have no plans on committing suicide tonight yeah I mean they bought the round Supply through time so it's it's the it's the the process is called fake it till you make it you start buying your own Supply and eventually you trigger you the team you trigger fomo from us basically and you and everybody and we start foming because these guys actually put too much money behind to make it pump anybody wants to build an amazing application percentage tokens that were sniped on launch that have not been released back into the market if someone can build that little plugin that can track snip and tell us what percentage of the snipers have not been built I'm funding it yeah how do you feel that uh this time around there's so many different memes and it's more fractionalized do you think that for example last cycle we had Doo a 90 Bill do you think memes will still get to that level or do you think because there's so many like an individual meme project or collectively as as M indidual meme projects yeah like my thesis for whiff and none of his financial device is that like Salon is the most retail friendly chain therefore memes will do well there there because retail likes memes and so whiff for me is the most established um like dogs are cute dog like you look at the picture like if you survey I surveyed like independent people like non- crypto people and they just laughed at the picture I think that has meme ability so my thesis for whff is that it converges on the value of something like she so that's you know like she is now at like uh 28 billion fully DED something 13 or like 202 circulating whff is at three 2.23 at any given day I don't know it's gone down quite a bit so my thesis is like if I'm long salana I think memes will do well and so for me a meme in salana is a levered bed on the salon ecosystem um so um yeah I mean I think uh doge is down 50% from its High um it's all a matter of flows right I do think like if you think about the if a hundred new dollars comes into crypto what percentage of that going to go to memes I think the ratio of that is probably going to be higher this cycle than in Prior Cycles because you have higher throughput lower fee blockchains that just enable like just retail to actually operate um in the space my thesis with any chain is if I like the chain I buy the chain I buy the casino which is the deck which is the house and I buy the meme because it's the most levered bet on whether the chain will work or not that's same thing here yeah it's three bets three bets on any chain um chain lowest lowest risk if the chain works the Dex is definitely going to do well and then if the Dex works then you want to take a really leverage bet um we actually have ratios of like chain to Dex to meme where meme is like 1% and you know maybe Dex is 20% and then chain is like you know the rest so that's kind of like how you get a leverage bet on on every chain yeah all right guys we're out of time uh I think uh we need to go shower after this the dirty the dirt the dirtiness of this talk thank you guys thank you guys