The Digital Asset Treasury Revolution - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2025

All right. Excited to be here with my fellow revolutionaries of the digital asset treasury revolution. Um, very excited to be here. My name is Sha Sha. I'm going to be moderating the hopefully fascinating conversation.

Um, I'm operating partner at KKR. KKR is the biggest um private investment firm in the world with about 700 billion AUM. Um I have been leading the digital asset strategy at KKR alongside tech private equity um value creation. Um going to hand it over to Joe.

Hi, I'm Joseph Shalom. I'm the CEO of Sharp Link Gaming. We are uh the second largest ETH treasury in the world with about three and a half billion of ETH under management for investors. uh the fourth largest uh treasury globally and I joined just a couple of months ago after 20 years at Black Rockck where for the last five years uh led all digital asset efforts across stable coins uh tokenization and the launch of the largest ETFs in history which were on Bitcoin and ETH.

Morning everyone. My name is Andrew Webbley. I'm the CEO and the founder of the Smarter Web Company. We're a UK listed business. We're the largest Bitcoin treasury company in the UK.

Um, bigger than all of the other ones in the UK added together. Um, we're probably in the top 30 Bitcoin treasury companies in the world by number of Bitcoin held. Um, I founded the business 15 years ago, small technology business, then listed it on the stock market in April this year. Um, and that's taken us to the point at which we're today where, you know, we own approximately 300 billion 300 million dollars uh, US dollars of Bitcoin. Thanks, David Sheamus.

Uh, I am, excuse me, I will be the CEO of Hyperlquid Strategies when our deal closes, hopefully not too long from now. Uh, we will be the largest uh, hype digital asset treasury company out there by far. We raised approximately $900 million in both kinds and in cash. Expect the deal to close sometime in the fourth quarter. Uh my day job is that I'm the one of the co-founders of Atlas Merchant Capital, private equity firm focused on financial services.

My co-founder is Bob Diamond, the former CEO of Barclays.

Fascinating. So just to set the stage maybe a little bit, I think the whole landscape of institutional investing so not cryptonative investing into digital assets has undergone a tremendous change over the last couple years, right? Like when when we got started at KKR at at looking at um potentially larger scale investments into the space, there was not really like other vehicles, right? at the game in Tom was essentially crypto VC or crypto private private equity investing. Um and I think the peak in terms of VC investing crypto was really 21.

Um if you look at the number today I think 25 we have cumulatively about 8 to 10 billion of cryptovc uh investments which is probably a third or a fourth of what it was in 21. Um what has come instead is and Joe will know that a lot is ETFs right ETFs started in the last two years you were one of the pioneers uh in in that space and 25 if I'm correct um the estimation is about 60 50 60 billion of net inflows of totally ETFs into sort of bitcoin and related digital assets um and what is completely new this year are digital asset trust registered dats and um it's been a explosive growth Um so year to date probably between 15 and 20 billion of uh total private fund raise uh of DAT. So there is this thesis to be made around rotation of institutional capital and non-cryptonative uh capital formation from venture capital to sort of ETPs and digital asset treasuries. What's sort of a view on this sort of overall overall trend? Is this sort of there to stay or um or do we still will we still see new things coming up?

Maybe Joel I I think if you take a step back go back to 2018 there was actually tremendous demand from the largest institutions in the world pension funds insurance companies asset managers so wealth funds to get exposure to crypto. And by crypto at that point I really mean Bitcoin, ETH and stable coins. There was not a lot of interest beyond that. They just could not own spot. They didn't have custody arrangements.

It wasn't within their investment guidelines. So they got proxy exposure through VC and that led to a massive boom. You can actually suggest that there was too much VC capital floating around then. And we spent when I was at BlackRock almost two years working with institutions to understand what they were interested in. We work with the SEC for 18 months and on January 11th last year, we launched a Bitcoin ETF with 11 other issuers and in July an ETH ETF.

Why? Because there was institutional demand. They just needed a better wrapper, a rapper that they had in their portfolio already. And those funds, at least at BlackRock, raised about $ 105 billion, which shows there was demand. We didn't create the demand.

Institutions wanted this exposure. I think the digital asset treasury trend is a smarter exposure especially in my ecosystem which is Ether and Ethereum because the ETFs that I launched at Black Rockck which I think are great vehicles still don't have permission to stake and if you're in an asset as a treasurer like ETH where you can hold it for capital appreciation and you could stake it and earn 3 four 5% if you're not getting that productive compounding yield and you cannot yet in the ETF. It's a superior way to get exposure but they people are underestimating the demand from institutions. They just need a responsible way to own it. Any views on that like what you know where where where why why digital assets treasuries were able to take so much share from the other sort of asset classes?

I think you you also have to look at you know so obviously everything that I say is very focused on Bitcoin because that's what we've built our treasury on but if you look at Bitcoin as a movement itself it's it's quite different in the institutional world in the the normal investing word world in the sense that you know retail investors have got this first and the institutions are just starting to understand it you know I've just got back from New York um I met with over 12 different fund managers over there and their knowledge is tiny compared with you know my shareholders you know we've got the third biggest community on X uh for a Bitcoin treasury company probably a digital asset treasury company as well um and the knowledge that the that the retail market has got is is fantastic um so so I think that's part of the story as well in the sense that the institutions are are understanding it later just like they did with Bitcoin and just like they did with other cryptos, I'm sure. Um and and that that's quite exciting as well.

Yeah. I I would say um first of all to me why when someone would want to buy ARAB, there are three reasons. The first two are sort of the standard that these guys did a nice job of covering which is one a lot of institutional investors just can't easily get access um to spot or whatever. they're not going to buy the borderback custody and all that. And two, as Joe said, you know, there's things you can do when you own the token directly more than the ETF can, which actually adds up over time.

I think both those two things are very relevant and that's, you know, why in my opinion DATs do and should trade at a premium. The third thing we have going for us is that hype the token in our DAT uh which as I think probably most people here know issued by Hyperlid. Uh it really only trades currently on Hyperlid. Hyperlid is not available in the United States. It is not easy for the casual investor to get on.

Um, so us putting it in a DAT that's traded on NASDAQ that's easy for, you know, anybody with a Robin Hood account or whatever to to own to me just adds to the already existing uh reasons that Dash should exist. And you know, in our since we announced this, we've talked to lots of people. We've talked to I've talked to small investors on Twitter uh X uh and I've also talked to large institutions, people who you wouldn't I wouldn't have believed before I got involved who told me that they can't trade on a on a on a DEX. It's not going to happen. Uh they can only own something like Hyperlquid through a digital asset treasury.

And that, you know, is really interesting to me and sort of shows why we're all here that different people need to own different things in different ways. And um crypto is growing and continues to grow to a size where it doesn't have to be one or the other. There's going to be lots of different ways to do similar things. The other side of the reality is um you know also there has been explosive sort of demand and and and funding into the space into the competition has also like really stepped up in especially in the recent recent month. So how do you how do you see sort of the competitive landscape uh of DATs evolving both between the assets?

I mean you you represent some of the biggest assets in in the crypto space but also within the same assets. You sometimes have multiple DPS actually competing competing for mind share for attention for funding. Um yeah how do you how do you see that evolving and uh you know where where where are we going from here?

Yeah I I think competition is good. You know, we use the word coopetition. You both cooperate and you compete, but there's something really positive about having a lot of great minds who have the same thesis. In our case, the thesis is there is a macro multi-deade Ethereum opportunity that is going to fundamentally reor reorient the rails and the settlement layer of all of finance. And I'm not talking about $4 trillion of crypto.

talking about $700 trillion of financial markets that are prime to be fixed in a new paradigm. So having competition means you have a lot of people with the same idea. So I think that's really positive. I think the bigger competition is going to be um ultimately there's going to be a handful in every category who a have liquidity on the NASDAQ. Uh Bitmine and Sharlink have about 98% of the trading liquidity.

And if you don't have trading liquidity in your stock, it's going to be very hard to raise capital. I think the second thing is you're seeing a massive entrance down the token market cap

of DATs. And my advice is if you think a DAT is going to change your token price, the number one thing that's going to change your token price is actual business activity, is revenue, is TVL. So, I think we're going to see a lot of people reach for the vehicle, but if the underlying is not effectively demonstrating that they're making change and driving revenue, it's very unclear why wrapping it in a DAT structure is the right answer.

What do you use on maybe Andrew? Yeah, Bitcoin exism there's like plenty of t how do you view the sort of competition in that in that what are the success criteria maybe? Yeah, Frank.

Yes. So, you know, as you say, there are quite a few Bitcoin treasury companies, probably over 200 um on current counts, you know, across the world. What we believe at the Smarter Web Company is that there'll be one at least dominant player in every market. Um, and I think what you will see over the next few years is that the the, you know, the equity story of these things is is is a global story, but there's a lot of products that we're creating in the future that are locally targeted. Um, so for me, the most exciting thing that we're doing at the moment is we're building effectively financial products based on the Bitcoin network that are designed for different people that have got different objectives.

So, for example, you know, I like volatility personally. A lot of people don't. They just want a coupon, you know, 8% let's say. So through the power of Bitcoin, we're able to develop these new products going into the future and offer people returns that they can only get through Bitcoin without taking on the properties of Bitcoin, for example, the volatility. And then the company, you know, the DAT, the Bitcoin treasury company, whatever you want to call it, then benefits to the tune of the return above the bit that gets shared with the different investors in in in the uh the different products which are created.

So you know and a lot of those those stories you know as you've seen with strategy in the states with the preference share offering for example are local stories. So you know companies can use their balance sheet and then expose their balance sheet to different types of investors looking for different things you know on a global and a local thing. So I think I think that's one big thing that you'll see as the the the months and years unfold from here.

David. Yeah, look, I would say uh regarding competition, I give my two colleagues here to my right a ton of credit and because you know they're competing in two absolutely massive assets being Bitcoin and Ethereum. Um on the hyperlquid side, we are by far the biggest debt out there. We're we're we're more than 10 times bigger than our than the next guy below us. Um, so day one we're going to compete just on size and I think that matters a lot for things like liquidity and all the things uh we talked about here.

I think on day two going forward um we're also going to need to compete on what we do with our tokens and how we are part of the ecosystem in both a positive way for the ecosystem but also in a profitable way for ourselves where we're uh both feeding the ecosystem um and making it better. making the whole thing better, but also figuring out a way for us to earn, you know, um reasonable returns above the staking yield without uh any reasonable with any additional uh real risk. So that that's that's day two and that's how we compete day two. But I think um I think you know look on one hand competition um is what everyone always worries about in their businesses. On the other hand, you know, what's the expression?

Imitation is the highest form of uh of compliments. I think I have that wrong but anyway uh you know that's we we can't be surprised to see competition and it generally makes everybody better.

I mean we've come beyond that first phase of explosive growth. I think already we're seeing some early signs of exhaustions of like new deities coming into the market going after the same investors and then the sort of older big much bigger deities like yourself like continues to kind of go down that sort of ATM route. Where do you see sort of the growth, future market growth of the total DAT asset class go from here? Where is that growth really going to come from? Is that coming from as you know Andrew you mentioned maybe going going beyond the US into into other markets?

Is it coming as Joe you said you mentioned down the risk curve like smaller altcoins um also doing that? Um yeah.

What do you think? I'm really not focused on where debt growth is. I'm focused on our strategy. And I think every debt needs to have a strategy beyond just making the price of their underlying go up. And yes, ETH has gone from the low 2000s to 4,000 in the last 4 months.

I think people are missing why we're here. We believe there's a long-term Ethereum opportunity. Just look at stable coins. Stable coins are about 280 billion in market cap. We believe, as does Secretary Bessend, that it'll be 2 to 3 trillion in stable coins in the next couple of years.

60% of that is on Ethereum L1 and L2s. Tokenized funds and assets are only about $30 billion. That is minuscule. Most of that is happening on Ethereum, over 80%. And if you look at DeFi, which was built on smart contracts on Ethereum, the high quality liquid DeFi, I'm talking about borrowing, lending, market making, swaps are happening largely on Ethereum.

And if you believe we're at the early early innings of massive tokenization and adoption, and I'm not talking about cryptonatives, I'm talking about the worlds of finance settling on a new neutral platform. then the value of the underlying token ETH is bound to go up very significantly. So to me it's less of a DAT strategy. It's a belief that the world financial system is going to be running on neutral programmable atomic instant settlement rails. And if you believe those rails are your chain, you want to gather as much of the underlying ETH as possible because when you own three and a half billion of ETH or 10 billion of ETH or 40 billion of ETH, you can do remarkably positive things in DeFi and you could be a very benev benevolent player in driving adoption.

So this is not about token value. It's about giving investors a long-term opportunity. And at Sharplink along with our partners at Consensus, we're going to change finance.

Yeah, I would, you know, share the overall sentiment there. You know, I've I've lived my life for almost 10 years. Um, not believing in fiat currencies, believing in Bitcoin as the only store of value. Um, so as a company, you know, you probably need to split that down into two areas. So as a company we have a responsibility to help people and that might be governments that might be the legacy media that might be uh you know even even even countries other companies competitors everyone everyone understand why bitcoin is in our opinion the best store of value so that's the thing that we have to do there but then in terms of what we have to do as a as a company why investors think that we can do this better than anyone else.

You know, if I look at the last quarter yield that we've delivered to our investors, you know, we've delivered almost 300% Bitcoin per share return over a quarter, you know, three months. So, that's the thing that we have to do as a Bitcoin treasury company, a digital asset treasury company. And that is us showing our investors why we deserve to in exist. So I think in my opinion all the the companies in the space you know they have to do their bit to help their you know their their ecosystem you know Ethereum Hyper you know whatever you care about but then on top of that they have to prove their existence that they're adding value to the people that are supporting them. That's how I see it.

Yeah. I think with us because hyperlquid is much less wellknown than Bitcoin or Ethereum uh it's a little bit of a different story. Um I don't you know even people who don't know much about crypto at all so I know about Bitcoin and you know Ethereum is is not far behind. Uh for us I'm running around having conversation with institutional investors and I'm saying let me tell you about Hyperlquid. It's an exchange founded in Singapore less than three years ago.

It has 11 employees. It's never taken a nickel of outside money. Uh today it's running at probably approaching a billion and a half dollars of free cash flow. Uh and it's using almost all that to buy back this token. And the conversation like that, you know, first you got to explain to them and people have to believe you because it sounds, you know, almost too good to be true.

So you get through all that and then they say, "Okay, that sounds great. You've convinced me. How do I buy this token?" And then I say, "Well, you better sit back down." Uh because that's now another complicated question we to get into.

Um and that's really where our our digital asset treasury comes into. So I think I think for us there's a much um I guess earlier or steeper learning curve that has to happen around what hyperlquid is, but it doesn't take long once you go through some of those key stats I just said where people say, "Wow, that's pretty interesting. That's pretty new." And then you know it is both an exchange and it's its own L1 you know layer 1 blockchain. What do you mean by that?

How does that work? So again it's it's just different enough both in its its recency of success uh the size it's gotten to the small number of employees and frankly the difficulty it is for many regular way investors especially the United States to own the token directly. The reality is the MNAF premiums of a lot of these DS have been you know compressing quite a bit in the last couple weeks. Uh especially what does that mean? Is this sort of are we seeing signs you know of market saturation or exhaustion you know um where do you think the music stops and how do you actually you know uh prepare against it?

Yeah. So we have a positive MNAV now but for the short period of time we didn't. We just did the right thing. You don't raise capital. You don't issue equity when your MNAV is less than one.

You dilute. What you do is what we did. We bought back 2 million shares and that was accreative for investors. I think in the long run you got to get through some of the FUD and the noise and let the system work itself through. But for a productive asset like Ethereum, if you own $ three and a half billion dollars of Ethereum and you can get minimum 3% staking rates, you should have a hundred million of revenue.

So even if we just stopped today and didn't raise billions more, you're talking about a public company rapper where you have an underlying that's appreciating and the revenue should come with a multiple. And you haven't really seen the DATs do a lot of public filings around revenue. we're all reporting what we own. When you start seeing that, I think investors will start rewarding that like you do on any forward revenue and cash flow in a public company. I just think it's a noisy period right now.

And I think let it settle and you'll see the MNAPs come back to reasonable multiples. These things are mean reverting when they're very high and they're mean reverting when they're very low. But it is nice to have a positive MNAV. It doesn't feel good when you don't, but you always have to do the right thing for investors. That's a great point and I I want to double double down on that point.

Some of these DATs will produce operating revenues, right? Whether it's from from staking, etc. And that's I think not not not sufficiently appreciated if we start to value these companies based on these revenues and therefore cash flows, right? Are you already seeing sort of an averaging of like multiples valuation on on those operating revenues? like a is there any correlation?

Is is it already being given credit for do you think or

I don't think it's

are we too early?

I think it's too early and I think a lot of these companies we took over Shell NASDAQ companies that had legacy operating companies and I've said publicly I need to be careful. We're going to build ETH denominated operating companies which will be somewhat uncorrelated and we'll be able to to spin up ETH denominated revenue and that's a bit of a flywheel. I do think um the one interesting thing about running an Ethereum DAT is you have a lot of investors who want the common equity, but you're going to start seeing people issue convertible bonds. And Ethereum is different than Bitcoin. Bitcoin's volatility has come down significantly, maybe because of the ETFs we launched at BlackRock, but ETH still has a 40 volatility, which means if you can get a a syndicated convertible bond offering that's high quality with a low coupon,

you can earn more in staking than your coupon rate. And it could be very very accreative to shareholders because you get to raise capital and your native staking will cover your debt. And when it has high V, it's very attractive for people who want that type of convertible bond strategy. And there's a lot of interest in Wall Street in that volatility while having the safety of staking yields covering your covering your your your debt ratio. And so maybe is there do you think there is some world where could today DS are valued fundamentally based on some kind of MNAF premium discount to the underlying crypto asset.

Right? But do you see a world in future where DATs can and will be maybe partially or wholly be valued based on multiples of the operating cash flow or the revenues. I I think if you look at what institutional investors are seeing at the moment, you know, they're they're only starting to understand the model, you know, yes, we've had strategy for 5 and a half years for Meta Planet for what 18 months. Um, you know, interestingly, MetaPlanet, um, I think that sets a good example to everyone that's interested in the space in in the sense that they've actually had four cycles four cycles of MNAV compression in in a year and a half. Um so you know if we see what's happened this year in my company just being listed you know five months ago you know lots of these other companies also getting listed it's it's so so early this this this time to look at it you know we have to you know we we have to expect that these things are going to be you know expensive if that's the right word and cheap if that's the right word at at different times whilst we all try our best to help everyone understand these new metrics.

You know, we did some research. So, somebody who works for me called Jesse Meyers who wrote the research or part of the research that micro strategy now called strategy was based on which is the the asset landscape view, you know, you know, gold, Bitcoin, you know, uh, equity, debt, etc., etc. It's all in all of Sailor's slides. Um, and I I I think that people are only just starting to understand all of this stuff.

Um, you know, and and and as time progresses from here, you know, the the understanding will get better. So we created this thing which is like um we've called it PBYD which is like an alternative for digital asset treasury strategies how you can value them in a a traditional equity way that may be um you know like a PE ratio um that's on our website. If you want to go to our investor relations website, you can read that. It's all all published and and that's trying to get investors to understand how you can see the the yield that we create and view it more like traditional revenue that a you know a Nvidia or an Apple or someone like that would would create that's measured in a PE. So, it's it's just taking time and getting everyone to understand we're so early with all of this.

Okay.

Yeah, I would I would make two points. uh one I would say uh for all the reasons that we're discussing here I think uh over time we're going to settle to a situation where on a weighted average basis for all the dats out there they're you know which is where we are now of course but they're all trading at some premium to MAPAP now not every single one of them is in a trade at a premium but the average weighted average for everyone is going to be some premium for all the reasons we're talking about and I think that uh to answer your question analysts will start figuring out how to break down that premium between um you know scarcity value and between you know difficulty to hold or whatever uh and between some PE multiple on earnings and that people will start doing a more sort of thorough quantitative analysis of what the MNAV really means and why it's different among different people when as I said the average will be above one. Um, the second point I'll make, and I don't mean to keep coming back to a theme here, but as you'd expect, I believe that whatever that average is, we're going to trade higher than that. And we're going to trade harder than that because our scarcity value is going to be is still so much higher than everybody else's. Again, I don't know how many people in this audience own hype right now, but everyone in this audience is pretty damn, you know, crypto knowledgeable.

Uh, and even for people here, it's a lot trickier than buying some Bitcoin in a Coinbase account. It's just totally different. Um so again I I think those will the MNAVs on average will be there. I don't think everyone will be for lots of reasons. I think um one thing we haven't talked about a lot today but you can't forget is that once you put something in a corporate entity uh you know you have revenue as we're discussing and revenue is all good but you also have expenses.

um and someone's got to pay for those expenses. And to the extent, particularly some of the smaller ones of these debts, you know, have expenses that are outweighing the revenues, you're going to have a real drag there. And that's going to cause a real drag on the MNAV. And again, as time goes on, as more of these are out there, as there's more quantitative analysis around MNAVs, you're going to see people really try to understand why different ones trade at different levels, you know, and again, over time, for thought, you know, for logical reasons. Let's for fast forward maybe 12 months from now.

There's a likely scenario where we will enter sort of a crypto bare market again. Bitcoin maybe draws down 40 50 60% and all coins even more. um what happens with the DATs and how do you act actually as sort of the the the leadership of these DATs today as actually prepare or like risk manage against these kind of let's let's just play out right like prices go down force liquidations there's consolidation happening in the market M&A uh is happening there may be like activist um actions right in and on the board level um you know that the overall sentiment goes down by a lot, right? What what can you do? What can you do already now to prepare?

Well, I I think you could do two or three things. One is don't put yourself in a position where you have a force liquidation. We have no debt on our balance sheet. And I would expect when we do raise convertible, it won't be secured by our ETH. So, if you own ETH or you own an ETH debt, yes, when the value of the underlying goes up, my stock price will go up.

It's expected when the value of the underlying price goes down and that will happen in cycles my stock will go down. But that does not force me to liquidate. In fact, it's an if you believe there's a decade long opportunity that is a great time to buy more of the underlying and I think investors will understand that. Second is we've chosen going forward largely to build these capabilities on team. You have some DATs that are composed of three or four people and they've just essentially outsourced management and are willing to pay others one to two% of NAV to acquire the underlying assets, stake it.

We're going to be building and we are building that capability because it's a lot better for shareholders if you could do it yourself, retain the talent and not pay the external advisors 1 to 2% of NAV when by the way you may only be earning 3% yield on those assets. So, we're going to do it the smart way and we're not going to do silly things. I think what you will see in this industry, and we've seen it in every cycle, is people will go out and take risks to try to catch up. They'll either take on bad debt, they'll start staking and swinging for the fences and not think about the risks associated with that. And that is quite dangerous and I think it'll differentiate those who are run institutionally with those who don't have the capability to do that in in a riskmanaged way.

So, from from my side of things, you know, I set up the Smarter Web Company 15 years ago. You know, I I'm incredibly proud of it. We've got a small um you know, operating business that contributes revenue to the company. Nothing to do with our Bitcoin Treasury strategy. And you know, you've got to have a strategy.

You know, if you want your business to exist for multiple decades into the future and do the mission that we're, you know, trying to progress, you've got to have a strategy that that caters for those times. You know, if I look back to uh when Bitcoin started, which was uh the same year that we we we actually founded the business. Um so 16 years ago. um you know if if you've got a long enough time scale and you've picked the right asset which of course we believe is Bitcoin um then you know dips are no big issue as long as you've got your capital structure right and you've got a company like ours with you know no real debt you know operating income etc etc so I think you know in that scenario you'll see the things that have been built on the wrong assets or with the wrong structures then you know that's what you you as an investor need to be careful to to avoid I would suggest.

Yeah. Look, I would say uh like every good economist I can predict uh everything except timing. Uh there will be a bare market again in crypto. Of course, I don't know when it's going to be here. I don't know how long it's going to last.

Um that will probably uh move MNAVs as well on the DATs because of course it does. Uh, one of the reasons I think that MNAVs in over the long term will be positive premiums is that uh, as Joe said earlier, when the premiums high, you issue equity, you recruit your book value. If the premium goes negative or really negative, you have to do what's best for your shareholders, which means you're going to buy back your stock, which also recreates book value. So, you know, be staying flexible, uh, meaning agree agree with Joe also, and not having debt that could carry you out. um staying flexible and the long-term goal is to grow book value per share uh as much as possible for your shareholders and I think through cycles DATs can do that in in different ways.

Okay, final closing statements uh one or two sentences um prediction um of where DATs will go in three years. I

I don't have any predictions on DATs. I know finance uh which is gigantic is going to come to decentralized rails and um I think people are underestimating how exponential growth happens. You always underestimate that on the upside and I think we're in the early innings of seeing most of financial services, money movements, funds will exist in digital format and we won't be using the word crypto. will be talking about the digitization of financial worlds and

for me I think over the next three years you'll see the smarter web company go from in the UK almost one of the biggest 350 companies to you know let's say one of the biggest 100 companies um and more importantly than that um globally I think you'll see digital asset treasury companies well on their way to becoming the most valuable sector in equity markets globally. Um, and within probably 10 years, I think you'll see that the most valuable companies in every equity market will be digital asset treasury companies, probably Bitcoin ones as well.

Very bullish. Very bullish. David,

uh, we're long past time, so I'm going to summarize with one word. Hyperlid.

Okay. Thank you very much for your time.