NFTs: The Digital Renaissance - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2022

so the other panelists are a bit late today so I think we'll get started with Anthony sure yeah I think uh yeah so I'm Joseph I'm the head of Southeast Asia at hash I look a lot into nfts and gaming metaverse and a lot of the application layer and I think we'll mainly start with Anthony and his font token nft fund six five to nine and then yeah we'll start with the nft yeah hi everybody um I I you know the Twitter Persona of AC The Collector um been collecting kind of in this space for several years now and uh joined a Consortium we'll call it but uh a part of the 6529 nft collecting fund um the role is to kind of give institutions exposure institutions anyone really uh interested in the in the Grail tier of nft collections the exposure to these uh to these nfts um you know obviously Punk 6529 uh the founding partner is uh you know synonymous you know I and my partner Jeff here are the the more docs members of the team to kind of uh you know interact with the community and kind of learn uh what's new what's coming up and so uh yeah excited to be here and kind of share a thesis great sounds good yeah I think everyone will be pretty interested in like what kind of nft Trends and categories that you're looking at that you're integrating that you're investing so I think if you could share some of the trends that that you're kind of focusing on nowadays as a fund I think would be great yeah sure um I think uh a lot of the uh you know a lot of the collecting we've been doing in this past year has been kind of a catch-up of the social construction that's been built you know even since the 2018 super rare early days when there was like three artists minting you know you had x copy hakatau coldy um so you know do we pay attention obviously to the historical significance of the space the idea is um you know these are these are carbon dated assets on chain in a manner that uh could you know survive probably a little better than oil on canvas and so um you know instantly the idea was let's let's you know let's fill there let's um let's let's you know grab the X copies and and call these and and hacker towels of the world but interestingly uh my personal collecting side kind of gravitated towards generative art which is Art based from code uh code or just computation or Automation and uh that's really where like you know in this is a personal collecting opinion but to me the perfect Synergy between the medium which was on chain and you know the actual artwork itself was just such a good uh you know mix that you know I had been collecting generative art before and you know I remember buying a Tyler Hobbs piece pre nfts where he's giving you a piece of paper that he signed with the code on it and that was very clunky you don't know know what to do with it and then you know kind of the art blocks Auto glyphs on chain generative art model really sparked I think what people describe as this digital Renaissance right using the new medium of the time um so we we have a focus on generative art as well and then obviously you know we have to pay attention to the pfp market uh you know board Apes you know what Yuga Labs is up to crypto punks uh azuki's you know so the idea is to kind of blend the exposure and the fund amongst these three verticals and then listen to uh what might come next which is you know I think as you're very familiar with game five uh you know using nfts as kind of this onboarding mechanism that fungible tokens might not have done got it so I think I think you touched on game five you touched on pfp touch 10 generative arts and nftr in general so when you look into let's say generative art and you know art nfts what are some of the criteria that you use like as a personal collector like what what do you look at is it the artist is it the art what are some of the let's say checklists or criteria that you normally look at when you make those decisions yeah that's a good question because generative art um you know a lot of these are CR like the art blocks sets are collections of like a thousand pieces and so how do you decide of a thousand which one do you want to grab right so I think first the idea is to collapse who are the artists that are actually climbing Everest and uh challenging themselves to create outputs from code that you wouldn't really expect as being code derived right and so um I think first what we look for is you know we try to rank these artists in a in a tier system who's just like who's Museum ready uh who's fund worthy right who has like proven themselves through multiple algorithms that you know they could persist through time and so I kind of take an approach of um lightning has to strike twice in a generative art department for us to really start paying attention um and so you know within the collection I think what's interesting is this uh this randomization of what the outputs will look like kind of breeds this um you know the Rarity rankings right and everyone's chasing kind of trying to get the number one but you want to collect um you know you don't want to collect rare and ugly so I think you do need a curatorial eye towards the outputs um and so yeah we take first we filter by artist I I would say this is you know how how I would strategize it and then you know we look through what are their best collections um you know for example Tyler Hobbs is a heimia uh Tyler Hobbs has um you know fidenza's incomplete controls you know so which are the outputs that stand out amongst those Collections and then yeah you know our fund strategy is to collect just the best which ones have social construction around them and people talking about those outputs got it yeah I think our friend from dragonfly Capital my Azure so if you could introduce a little bit morning guys um hi so I'm from dragonfly we're um uh crypto Global crypto fund managed about 4 billion uh we're starting 2018 had a thesis down number one crypto's uh Global movement therefore we needed to build a global platform um and secondly that this is a new asset class that requires you know a native way of research investing um so yeah and so we've been growing uh to about 50 people today so we actually just opened our office in Singapore this week so yeah great to be here great yeah we were just discussing with Anthony about nft art and kind of the criteria that you use to invest curious uh in in terms of nfts right does dragonfly invest directly into nfts what kind of areas do you look at and if the infrastructure uh in in the VC arm as well yeah awesome um yeah so I think on the uh so our fun is structure more of a venture you know so we go in and invest in private companies um so we we don't collect our art you know out of the thumb per se um that that said you know personally I'm a collector and therefore that's why AC and I uh get along nerding out about generative Arts um but yeah we do have portfolio companies working in space one of them is called a TR lab which is a fine arts nft curation platform with code encubator company with Deputy chairman Christie's and sort of that thesis is you know this is a obviously a digital Renaissance movement which you you know kind of takes that co-collaboration between um you know the crypto industry as well as the traditional Fine Art industry so um yeah and it's been really exciting to see you know I was just a freeze in Seoul um you know earlier this month and um and you know our Basel last year was absolutely amazing seeing how like Chrome squiggles are showing up at our fairs and things like this and so yeah um it's been you know really amazing to kind of witness the beginning of of uh you know art movement awesome sounds good and uh yeah I think in terms of like trends that you see in the market so there's pfp there's generative Arts there's gaming so as a firm uh what what do you normally focus on in you know in recent months yeah so um I feel like we have been more cautious on on the you know the over past six months I think now that like Marcus uh kind of trending to rationalizing so um but you know I think the um the pfp movement is uh you know has taken a lot of the uh sort of the noise and you know the the attention span for people in the industry people think about nfts okay pfp is the first five same people comes to mind but I think that's just a very much like you know 1.0 of how nft is going to look like um I think that the challenges of prps are you know it's about how do you prioritize uh that movie Forward right so you're seeing you know some collections like yoga labs and doodles and are all raising and proof Collective um and so like how do you really like build a product Suite that binds the community together right and how do you create essentially a decentralized IP um so I personally you know I'm more of a punk lover because I think it has so much of a you know almost channeling like the inner art historian here like a historical value being the first Genesis of pfps and you know I think if you that evaluate the pfpsr piece of art which has infinite upside you know subjective value uh versus like a commodity where you know I think a lot of collections right now are trying to do um you know I think I'm more for the former uh but that said I think what the collections are currently doing are incredibly exciting uh in terms of like how do you build a global Community got it supported by West Ray yeah and I think this is to both Anthony and Maya but uh I think pfp nfts were something that really hit the mainstream hard it was something that all the celebrities were endorsing there's something that a lot of retail investors could resonate with so in terms of you know separating the good pfps the bad or or like the Next Generation pfps uh what what kind of you know criteria what kind of things do you look at to kind of separate from the really top and good pfp nfts in the market to um to the mediocre uh yeah hey Robbie um yeah so bfp is a very interesting you know it started off as you know I think on a narrative basis profile picture right so you're thinking to the avatar on your Twitter or your Discord um I think we're seeing the end of that where you know is there going to be a new successful pfp project in the year 2023 probably not the way that board Apes had their launch and so um well we look you know I think strategically for us the longevity The Narrative we like to build is around the historicals obviously Yuga Labs is a massive player in the space and so um you know you would need exposure to kind of a team building in in that scale um but I think you know interestingly a lot of the fundraising that happens on these pfp teams is kind of uh create a lot of excitement but the question is do they know what to do next yes they're raising money a lot of money and they they've made a lot of money but are they you know questions around are royalty is going to persist right like a lot of these collections trade as fungibles where uh you know kind of like this human loneliness solution to a sense of belonging you just want to be in the tribe or the community and so a lot of these trade in and out you know people have emotional attachment to their pfp but you know um as the infinite pfp collections come out like you know you're seeing a lot of uh I think signs of fungible trading there and so um you know we like to look at it like let's be safe here um let's minimize risk on like what might be the next board ape like you know obviously you pay attention but uh yeah the pfp evolution I think will move into kind of game five and using your avatar in a more 3D environment right so um you're not just gonna you know have a uh a crypto Punk um you know as a 2D image you're going to try to you know create a a life around this in this in the open metaverse ideally right got it yeah I think talking about game five Robbie from immutable is here so if you could you know introduce yourself a little bit I think it'd be great sure Robbie Ferguson from immutable uh I drove the wrong way for 15 minutes so I saw everything late uh immutable is basically on a mission to make web 3 gaming mainstream and we do this by building zero knowledge roll up Tech on ethereum but also by providing the One-Stop shop the games to come and build so we power some of the biggest games and brands in the world Disney IP is building on our side as well as alluvium which is the largest web3 gaming sale in the world uh IMVU just went live yesterday which is a massive web 2 metaverse if you guys remember that one and we've raised a few hundred million dollars from temasek 10 cent bitcraft Galaxy and and more um so pleasure to be here and to be chatting yeah sounds good I think I think immutable has been you know very very strong clear on the web through gaming space obviously immutable facilitated the eluvium nft cell as well just curious to hear um as a builder right what what are some of the signs that you can see from an nft team like immutable like like eluvian for example can like what what are some of the signs that you see this nft team will make it you know this nft team will be loved by retail like yeah what are some of the signs that's a great question I actually think we want to make the Criterion for whether an nft team will succeed converge with the Criterion for what will make an ordinary game succeed which is is it fun will it have high retention and do they have a good strategy for getting lots of players all of the Delta between making a good web 2 game and making a successful web 3 game we've got to make incredibly easy in order to onboard tens of thousands of game developers and make this mainstream which is kind of what our vision is now that's obviously not the case today there's still lots of changes you have to make if you're building a good web free game what we look at typically is a lot of traditional game metrics so funding team quality proven traction is the game live but also what's the tokonomics what's their commitment to actual web 3 for a lot of companies it's just a new vertical of Licensing which we're not interested in we're much more interested in people who are actually leveraging it at the core of what they're building at that game so for instance eluvian 100 of Revenue goes to Holders of ilv and those the models we're excited about because that's when you're actually changing the ways you can grow leveraging player and incentives leveraging token incentives and you can compete with some of the biggest game companies in the world by sharing value um so typically we we kind of go through those Criterion but if we want this to go mainstream a web 2 game should be able to build something and not have to know you know how do I design complex economics or in-game economies or build on Smart contracts it's got to be ridiculously simple for them got it I think this is a question to all three panelists here today but so in terms of uh gaming nfts right um I think I think over the past year or so we've seen a lot of gaming nfts dilute the market but in terms of utility and in terms of the value that they bring right what what kind of structure or gaming nfts are you looking at in the future um you know I think building a good game is very hard and a lot of people realize this obviously but they come out with the assets first they they sell the inventory and then they're like we'll figure this out right and so we try to be very Vigilant in in kind of or in our diligence and just be careful um so you know I would say we really you know the the biggest positions we look at are like the digi digox uh Gabe Laden comes from you know a world where he's had two billion dollars in Revenue in on and you know Mobile gaming and uh you know so again we're not you know personally nor at the fund are we looking to roll dice in a way that it's like you know a significant portion of the portfolio so I think um on the game five side in its position of our portfolio uh we really try to hit winners and people who have succeeded in the past it's you know I am a gamer myself I love Dota 2 in these games and it's like you know there's the same Studios Behind These for a reason right so um you know I'm excited to see what immutable X brings in in the space and empowering game fight Founders um but as an investment you know I think we wait to see who the winners are yeah I think uh we've been seeing you know kind of the shift from you know like is he saying to like drop some nfts do some sales um to now you know like the you know free to own and engage your own kind of uh movement I think that is a really good exploration because I think Webster gaming is really about uh you know for game developers right like I I spend uh quite some time recently in Korea talking to a lot of the web 2 Gaming Publishers looking into moving in space um to them it's really you know like you know it's particularly for Asia I think um there is a a very mature market for monetization already right like you know gotchas and all these things that you know Asian gaming companies love doing and I think for web3 it is a new model and I think that you know fungible token nfts all that you know in one ecosystem and how do you really balance like value accrual uh how do you you know kind of like protect your players away from speculators um and then how do you distribute like sort of value without you know becoming too security-like now all these things I think are um are are you know being explored by the space right now um and I think the um you know I would love to see more games sort of like reward real players and really kind of like um um you know imagine like free fire like dropping thing uh nfts to their most engaged users right and I think that that model uh sort of like seeing like nfts is a layer on top of like the web 2 Gaming um is going to be interesting yeah probably yeah I think in terms of the economics of gaming nfts right uh do do you resonate with the model of requiring Gamers to own the nft first before playing the game do you like the free to free to play model like what kind of models are you looking for at the moment there's going to be a ton of genres that come out there is no one right way to do it the most important principles is that your economy is sustainable and that means the value that you are giving out has to be generating some demand for the economy As Long as You Follow that one simple principle and it's not easy always to do that then any mechanisms you have won't be inflationary excessively we subscribe to the policy that it should be you should maximize top of the funnel so you have to make it ridiculously easy to play these games you don't need to own Gods on train cards to play God's Unchained the vast majority of the games building on immutable you don't need to own Assets in order to play and I think the beautiful thing about web3 is we have this opportunity to the simplest explanation when people say well where is this value coming from you're creating money from nowhere and the answer is actually well games spend billions of dollars on Performance Marketing to Google and Facebook every year that goes into the void just to get players to try out that game just substituting that billions of dollars spend directly on value that can be given to players instead backing a real economy means that they're more likely to play the game more likely to share the game with their friends and more likely to stick around so we're replacing the value of ads with the values of sharing ownership with people and I think that's a beautiful thing I think that's cutting out a pretty useless middle person this operation and kind of giving away the equity of this stuff um so I think it has to be as accessible as possible and for us personally we're not so excited about the hundred thousand nfts and kind of the rare Collectibles I think they're ultimately going to be a a category which is the whale segment of these category every game monetizes via having whales at this top end but in order for this to be become interesting and for those whales to even want to spend people have to be trading stuff for a buck for 50 cents and I think we're going to see entire monetization models come out where games don't sell anything at all it's purely monetizing based on secondary transactions and that what for instance imbu has been doing for the past 15 years the reason that's interesting is the incentive alignment between the publisher and the follower are completely aligned which is why I think this royalty discussion is so important because without guaranteed ability to take royalties you can't have this business model which is fundamentally better for players be protected for these games Publishers who are embarking on that Journey got it makes sense so I think yeah I think um so in terms of like whether it's art whether it's gaming whether it's any kind of nft as an investor right what kind of infrastructure do you think would help bring more liquid Alternatives bring more users to nfts what's lacking in the market right now do you think foreign a lot but you know I think immediately um I think openc is a bit clunky like these you know um I think the marketplaces need to be a little bit more improved on on you know enticing volume and so uh you know I think the ux is a little you know retail we'll call it and that's very good for people who want to pick up one or two nfts but that doesn't really like if um if the hype Cycles winding down it's really hard to get volume with one or two people buying one or two pieces of art or pfps right so um we personally have taken investments in in like you know uh new Marketplace ideas built more around a Trader mentality um I think on the pfp collections we'll probably see royalties you know maybe an edgy take or not but we'll see royalties will probably head towards zero on on these more fungible collections uh where you'll see a lot more volume in that regard but but incentive wise I think you know similar to punk 6529 and punk4156 I think we all kind of agree that um there's a misalignment when you're incentivizing volume in a royalty basis and you know somebody could run a they could rug a project and still monetize a hell of a lot of money on the exit with that volume uh with a royalty basis and so I'd like to see people experimenting with market cap helping collectors you know like you know I want to see a team change the royalty model towards something that gives the value to the collectors and gives them you know more reason to stick around than to just trade in and out of collect Collections and so that's kind of I want to see that experimentation it's not necessarily one thing is I want to see new things with a capital N and just go out there and like you know see what sticks yeah Maya so um yeah I think the trading side of things definitely worth seeing most of the Innovations coming from um you know we invested in uh aggregator called Jam which got a car recently by openc and um I think the trading is you know as any assets is like the first and the most important use cases and you know we're also seeing the recent like MMS like pseudo swap coming up um so you know excited to see how that space unfolds um and on you know in terms of the other side I think like the challenge of nfts is just not enough like you know Supply and you know from both borrowers and lenders you know from a lending perspective and also the underwritings um you know uh like pricing and all that is also challenging right so I think right now we're in like uh concurrent like uh you know parallel uh sort of development between both infrastructure and content right you need content in order to supply assets into a class and then also having infrastructure kind of like you know support it so um yeah I think that's um again like you know right now I actually think there's a way too many um infrastructure startups but like not enough content like good content coming into space I'm Robbie yeah did you do you see any you know lacking infrastructure or things that you want to see to improve then the biggest thing missing right now is games right and let's quickly it's coming because the leading indicator is a talent in VC and more than nine billion dollars have been poured in the last 18 months into web 3 gaming it's bigger than any other segment in web3 but games take time whereas pfbs you can create in a week or perhaps in an hour with uh Dali and and the uh generative image networks that are coming out so really what we're going to start to see over the next six to 18 months is a lot of these high quality games come through with I think a much more sound understanding of tokonomics and my genuine belief is that the the top game will dwarf the rest of nft volume combined it'll do an order of magnitude more on a daily basis than what we're seeing from Collectibles and that's just because if you take a popular game with a quarter billion users and you have a proper economy where they're trading even a dollar or ten dollars a day you're looking at effectively a quarter billion to a billion dollars of regular daily or weekly volume in this economy alone and that is going to be the number one thing which takes web 3 mainstream from you know the roughly 30 million monthly active users we have today to hundreds of millions um so yeah if there's one thing it's it's good games I think there is more to be done in the infrastructure side and onboarding always we're not there yet but that will come the the longest sort of leading indicator that's not here yet is going to be game Supply and I think and I think in terms of bringing a lot of users into nfts I think sometimes it's important that like for example apple is supporting P2P uh nfts but but the problem is there's a big fee right so as investors like are you okay with sort of big corporations and big platforms coming in charging a lot for nft trading and charging a lot for um to nft users but then bringing a lot of users in or do you think it's better that web3 kind of stays as it is and you know nft nft space is basically for crypto users I think the users will decide where they go um I think the Apple news is actually bullish like you know um 30 percent uh you know Apple royalty on a Frida free to own gaming model it's not really tripping up a gay Bladen or other free to own kind of business uh excuse me gaming Founders and so if that helps them on board like I'll take any Trojan Horse we could get right like we want to get a we want to get a hundred million people in the open metaverse but realistically I think through gaming and you know other methods we could get a billion people onboarded pretty quickly with an apple integration and so however they like unfortunately they're not gonna bend the knee to all web 3 ideals it's not what we should expect but you know as they uh as they enter the space I think we could continue to change them through our to our consumer behavior and that's really the goal right it's like you know you vote with your money and and I think Apple will learn that like everybody else um I think the uh we're seeing like uh um web 2 game developers are trying to like converting some of their existing IPS into web3 um I think that they know that they actually they're losing some but they're actually winning more in the long term right because like effectively by um you know giving true ownership to your player plays and um you know you're in creating an open economy within your you know supposedly closed off system um actually it's gonna boost up your GMB right and then that I think um uh from speaking to a lot of you know uh actually a lot of developers in Asia I think they are going to be uh you know first that kind of like take a step in that direction like for example like Nexon uh right like a Korean gaming conglomerates converting um maple story which is a you know 20 year old MMORPG game into a crypto game and I think that's like massive I think Spotify and Netflix prove that you can get people to monetize outside of the App Store if there's sufficient motivation and for those businesses the commercials really matter so I think it's going to be a question of for some people that 30 clip is fine and let's you know pay the tax man and get users on board but I think over time as the value offered to players increases and as whales begin to build and have large inventory collections we're going to see more pressure for them to be transacting outside of the platform and I think that if we can shift one of the highest monetizing verticals for the App Store which is games suddenly there's significant exogenous pressure to actually a for them to lower their fees or B to have an entirely different business model so I think overall the the pricing pressure is is good for better policies um for game developers and we have seen people get around it but in the short run it will be get the users through the most popular app stores in the world yeah and I think to get a lot of users into nfts you must first get them to buy by the nfts button the good and these are very expensive right so like what do you think is the best way to for like a very small retail investor to get good exposure to nft is it fractionalized nfts is it Taos like what are you mostly thinking of right now I think Dows are great places to share ideas and I think no one misses on a low entry feed out right like you're you're only gonna you know share Alpha as people you know their groups but um it's probably the best way to check your own uh fomo and I think you know you also have a uh a breeding ground for new ideas out of these Dows I've seen a lot of dows kind of spin off into their own founding teams of of things and so yeah the best exposure you could get is join a community that you could trust the information in which is very hard in this space um but you're you're not like gone are the days of minting for denzos and ringers and stuff and like seeing a thousand X um there's a lot of attention now on these on these things and you can't mint for 200 anymore um and so you know you really have to like accumulate what you can and use your money wisely versus taking a risk my advice is start from collecting things that you truly love um so I think you know like as he said like gone on the days right minting 100 ringers but um you know there's still a lot plenty of platforms um you know actually there's a very vibrant uh community of generative art on tazos um and these art pieces are you know you know less crazy than like your art blocks and you know 100 East pieces but you know you still get Joy by you know buying something that you you know from a creator that you really appreciate uh his or her digital craft right I think um you know from we stepping into the you know web3 and digital ownership uh sort of era like you know that appreciation and the love of a digital object is actually step one um and then the enhancing the financial things sort of comes later but that's my opinion I think asking how do you get exposure to nfts is similar to asking how do you get exposure to e-commerce ultimately it's a category and within that category there are going to be hundreds of business verticals and and thousands or tens of thousands of businesses the question is really what do you want to be exposed to if you want to get exposure to the general asset class I think probably the infrastructure is the best bet wherever you you kind of have your value data set charging for scarce block space charging for Value uh or wherever in the stack but I think the most interesting question is we're going to see some of the most powerful financial instruments for creating derivatives indexes across segments of nfts that allow people unprecedented democratized access to everything we're going to have Goldman Sachs trading desks trading digital skins on fortnite we'll have indexes for trading card genres and you'll be able to go short you know mobile RPGs and long MMORPGs or maybe you're talking about Finance nfts or maybe you're talking about you know art and luxury Collectibles but I think the question is what do you want to be exposed too and and sort of where are you actually taking your bet on I like gaming I'm bullish on art or or whatever so I think that's the question and I'd be asking but certainly nfds is the Primitive that's going to give incredibly powerful Financial access to this stuff got it and I think you know moving into sort of like the the current Trend the future of nfts right I think there's a lot of technologies that are coming out now there's so bound nft there is energy derivatives like nft swab nft Oracle NFD options and there's also like rent to own kind of protocols coming out so like in terms of those new nft technologies what are some of the things that you're most interested in nowadays I like I think nft financialization is going to be spearheaded by evaluation and like you know I think metamask right as like the primitive infrastructure that you use to even buy nfts um is going to have maybe a valuation model within it that is gonna you know kind of help these decision making processes happen um and so you know um I you know I I think information at the decision making process is I think uh what's missing with you know first of all hacks uh first of all people buying the wrong you know project like we're not there yet um so you know I think there you need to have that in your ux and then on evaluation model then you could have lent borrow and lending without the you know like ridiculous liquidations that you see kind of on like Ben Dow and these other organizations um so you know that that's going to help bring Equity back into the space where there's a lot of like you know misfortunate events for uh for collectors and they just lose their assets so I think the um uh the core Challenger is saying is like you know so Bound for example I found sobound super super interesting because um you know there's a contradiction in sometimes nft uh community that are you a collector or a Trader right like these two are supposed very you know at the end of the spectral and different types of personas um and so I think like for whatever consumer product you're trying to kind of have nfts is like your you know incentive layer like how do you sort of like you know like I mentioned earlier segregating uh speculators and you know true lovers of you know the product itself um I think that you know Soban for example is like kind of prohibiting transfer and selling for an extended period of time I think these are interesting innovations that uh I think needed to be taken uh in order to build a um you know a Vibrance of a community I think it the the first thing that has to come is sufficient primary volume stuff that people want to buy and what you find is that complex secondary financial markets emerge on anything with sufficient primary volume we have uh options markets worth billions on pork knuckle because they're sufficient of that that is that is traded every year so um I I think once these markets emerge around games around Collectibles around art we're going to see complex infrastructure there's a couple of Primitives that are missing one of the ones I'm really passionate about is every single nft today is a unique market so there's really no way to actually bring liquidity to the category of assets or the metadata of assets you're trying to purchase and trade along and that's what we're working on with metadata based trades where you can bid on actual metadata rather than the asset itself but uh ultimately this stuff will will get solved and the value of it will be an order of magnitude High than the underlying primary markets that's obviously in financial analogs awesome sounds good yeah I think today it was really productive to learn about you know what I think a very unique group of investors and Builders are thinking about nfts and yeah thank you so much for for joining us today yeah all right thank you all right