NFTs: From Zero to One - TOKEN2049 London 2021

well first of all welcome everyone welcome thank you you were not supposed to make it but you made it yeah so that's super cool it's great to be here all right so let's get started with a quick introduction of yourselves and also tell us what was your first nft and what is your favorite nft that you have in your wallet let's get started with coding the okay so colin platt ceo of a platform called unifti basically we build no code tools for people that want to do something with nfts beyond just minting um so we built some white label marketplaces and go beyond uh utility on that uh it was the first nft yes what was your first set of teeth uh okay i'm a geek so i made my own um uh [Music] let me go with the first uh interesting one was probably uniswap uh i was doing tests with the uniswap v3 tokens a while ago when they first came out with that um and i had some random ones over the course of it but i'd say that's the first like one that i really got into um outside of like metaverse type things awesome how about you turn hey tyrone um yeah i'm see you at gauntlet but i think for this panel the more relevant thing is i'm also a partner at robot ventures um we basically have invested in a lot of nft infrastructure we're sort of the first investors in fractional and nftx um but uh you know my first uh nft was what some might call the og nft uh which was bitcoin how about you people pleaser hi i'm peoplepleaser i'm a digital artist um my first nft probably i think that's like one well the one first one i bought actually was um made by this uh art really young female artist um she uh does art stuff for coin gecko then she was drawing these like really cute pokemon nfts that she was selling um so that was like the first one that i bought and then now i have a lot of them how would you centi yeah santiago i'm i guess i'm just an investor most recently verified capital um and yeah i did my first nft just to understand it just to like get my hands dirty i guess the one that i first bought um or minted was a crypto punk back in the day and then really didn't think much of it um until recently okay cool that's awesome from my side my first nft actually was uh cryptokitties um yeah and okay now let's talk a little bit about how should we be building communities around nfts and what makes them strong let's start with you people please sir um well i guess my my story was a little bit uh this community i i didn't intentionally build and then it just kind of i mean um santiago tyrone they're both part of pleaser dao which was initially formed i sold an nft back in march which was also the unisop v3 announcement animation that i had made and then a group of people banded together pulled money together created a dao named it pleaser dao and then they bought the nft and then so i would say you know it wasn't really intentional that i had built this community but um in a way so completely organic i guess i wasn't expecting it all but in a way before that you know because i had been pretty involved in d5 um and you know i was working frequently with a lot of people in d5 and making cool animations for various d5 protocols so um probably just engaging with that community was how i built up you know sort of like mine and i think that it is quite different from a typical nft artist's path to becoming an nft artist that has a community but yeah that's awesome let's okay i didn't know that you get started because of these guys maybe so now let's talk let's talk about that how did you guys come together or why do you come together there there was a telegram message that showed up a couple hours before the auction ended which was send 10 east to this eoa no i seriously that's that's how that's how it started like well i mean from my perspective like um i followed the work of of people pleaser um she's worked with a lot of d5 protocols and so for me it was really interesting to see an artist uh that was you know there's a lot of like tribalism in d5 and you know you work with sushi you work with the unit swap and and i think that to me was really interesting um this idea that nfts can build really interesting communities and then from there you layer on a bunch of services uh which is kind of inverting the model of how you launch a protocol in many ways like look at board apes um but yeah pleaser data is really interesting experiment um i think we we initially said well we all want this video which is great and and then we said instead of bidding against each other let's just band together uh and that's been a common theme of pleaser which is um you know let's buy really emblematic art it may not be the most expensive at times but one that we think represents core values and principles you know about the snowden piece we've bought the tour piece and and i think that's um like i think as a community you always want to have strong values and principles and that's always been a guiding principle for pleaser dao amazing yeah i think one one other thing that is actually the charity element of the initial painting so it was it was for like asian american violence um and you know you can speak more to the precise character you chose but i think that ethos was quite important in completely agree i think that uh it's going to become actually kind of like the norm if you're not doing good for the world you might be cancelled so you know everything is completely transparent now so i think you know our society is having kind of like a social awakening so i'm super excited about that how about you calling um how can we build strong communities how or how our community is being built around nfcs so we're we're in an interesting place where we work and we see a lot of communities kind of starting out or communities branching from more traditional methods and through nfts um and what's really cool is if you kind of contrast it with more traditional crypto stuff we can call it traditional like erc 20 based communities it seems like a lot of those people get involved and become part of the community and it's almost like a pejorative thing like to be a community member is to be a bag holder like you made a loss and you sit there whereas like nft holders a lot of people come in not primarily motivated by a financial return or not solely motivated and it becomes this really cool network um and it's either built around the artists or just around the community members themselves of talking to people and you'd see my shirt on i'm in the pudgy penguin community since very early you meet a lot of people that do interesting things and you wouldn't otherwise interact with them and i get messages all the time they know if you see a pudgy penguin pfp like you respond to that before anything else and it's always reciprocal so i think having communities that realize they want to be part of a community and want to grow that community and have something to share in common is a really cool way to do that and i've hired a ton of people through nft based communities done work and contributed other things based on that so realizing that it's more than just a financial return i think is a strong part of building a strong community amazing what is uh what is the com the community that you're most passionate about a part a part of the penguins well you know outside of my own thing i have to mention our own project but um i okay i quite like the kia sedonas i know it's really funny uh the 2007 kia sedonas but the uh team behind it is doing some funny funny funky stuff uh they launched in some different ways so seeing kind of the technology in there and i'm contributing on that i also really like the loot community um just which one loot yeah so the the white words on black backgrounds um just because it is such a simple thing and it brought a lot of really smart people in to go hey why don't we try doing this and actually producing stuff that people liked to try to mint it maybe went a little bit too far into into that direction but just seeing kind of the animation and lots of smart people doing stuff and delivering something that is just that small increment has been a fascinating experience um you touch you touch upon on loot yes can you can you elaborate a little bit on that like why do you think is uh is so attractive to so many people yeah so there's two things that i really found interesting and i don't know if novel is the right word but it was the first project that i saw that really brought this to the forefront everything is on chain and what loot is if you're not familiar with it uh it's pseudo-random numbers that was just picked from a list and it's it kind of follows something like a dungeons dragon type role-playing game and it launched with literally just white written words on black backgrounds and that was the nft so there's no art there's there's no reason to look at it and a lot of projects then came and said hey well let me take that and the first project was abstract art and the concept was if you hold a loot you can take the abstract art that was built off of those words to represent something and then people took that idea and they said well let me create characters let me create maps different images let me create stories that go with these things and just see the kind of iteration that comes on top of that is just fascinating much of it's quite simple some of it is extremely intricate and trying to build really out there things and people raising money on that yeah so we talk uh on the when we talk about d5 we talk about lego blocks so to me it sounds like this new experiment with loot was kind of like a lego block right uh and people were building on top of it and so on so yeah it's super interesting how about you turn uh in terms of loot no no in terms of like uh what's the community that you're most passionate about actually probably recently loot for sure i think we we definitely kind of minted a bunch in the beginning one thing about loot that's actually interesting community wise is that uh the idea of the item being built before the game is like a fundamental core like principle of this community where like the cards are the items and people build multiple games on top of it you kind of get like this interoperability between like use cases for a specific item instead of like i have a game like axi it's hard to kind of like take the axi um items and then use them in some other platform easily so luke kind of flipped that on the tent and i think that's what really made the community kind of go a little bit wild um i think of course it had some governance difficulties but it's been i think it's like probably the most active discord i had to delete discord for a few days because like my computer was like slowing down after joining that like if i could add one thing on luda you know most people tend to think that nfts are just art because they're very visual representations of data um but i think it starts and i guess most people might be wondering like what do i care about a pixelated punk it looks really simple i can someone can just copy and create it but i think it's just proving out a use case of taking data and then using really doing really interesting things around that because i think we forget that at the end of the day it's data that's underlying a lot of these nfts and it starts with art but it can be extended to insurance contracts real estate pretty much any liquid asset and and i think r is just the first use case of many just to expand on that why can i just not uh right click and save it no you can't okay but you know this argument that yeah yeah in this in the same way it's like uh you know i'm like you want to copy my punk go go at it it's no different than you having a picture of the mona lisa in your house it just adds in fact more value um a lot of people i guess will understand that i mean at the end of the day everything is very subjective even bitcoin ethereum like anything right um so you know more people copying your nft and showing it as their profile picture or in their house just enhances the value of that um but i think if you talk to folks like in sotheby's and christie's and art collectors you know there's two things one is provenance there's an undisputable uh id like there's it's undisputable the providence and the ownership of the nft so you can inspect the contract and say i'm the ultimate owner of this punk or of people pleasers video and no one can dispute that and you have pure like you can trace that to origin and you don't know that in with other non-nft pieces of art you know there's a big counterfeit problem um and so you know over time i think that will ultimately be interesting how much value accrues to an nft based on who's bought it over time the history of the nft so all of that is going to be recorded exactly on chain and i think that ultimately adds another dimension to an nft you know in the next hundred years um you know because all the data exists on an immutable record whether it's in the ethereum or some of the blockchain amazing how about you people please sir uh what other community interests you and and you find super attractive um well i have some board apes and well i actually have a funny story recently so i did a collaboration with steve aoki um and then we took some pictures like outside of sotheby's and then when he treated one of them and this is sort of like a story of how you know i discovered a community or something so basically there's these nfts called chubby corns they're like how are they cool they're called chubby corns but they're like these really cute looking unicorn things that are like chubby and they all have like really weird funny haircuts um [Laughter] so how i discovered them was somebody like cause you know how steve aoki does those like jump photos where he's like jumping in the earth like he would have made us do one and then somebody like photoshopped like chubby corns into our photos it looks like we were like riding these chubby horns and it was actually a really well done photoshop job and then so through this we obviously i didn't know what they were i was like but because somebody did this you know i discovered it and then so then when steve aoki and i were at the sotheby's dinner we were like we were like look at this photo like it's so well done or whatever and then we're just like joking about it like oh we should just like buy some you know they're actually like they were kind of expensive because there's only 250 of them but because they're so cute um so whatever their strategy was it totally worked you know like and then then when we bought some like the entire like community was like oh my god like steve aoki and people pleaser like bought some chubby corn something they started making a bunch of like fan art and meme art um around it you know and then just like so i feel like that's to me i was like well this community clearly knows what they're doing like you know they built up this brand like really quickly and then they're also like providing things like you know that we would perceive of like value which is like creating memes and you know like new fan art and all this kind of stuff they're like very fast at like what they do um yeah and then shortly after like you know some well-known collectors like triple a was like i'm going to buy tubby like he placed like bids on like 15 of them or something like um so this is just like a funny story and an example of how a community can be built just on social media by you know spreading the word yeah you talk about memes why do you think memes are important i think memes are they're basically you know i think why memes are important is because like obviously the virality of it it's like the fastest way to spread information and then so you know when you think about it like in an advertising way or something you know basically i think when a meme is a successful one it's like you see it and then you have the intuition of i want to share this with my friends or as many people as possible and so creating a good meme is an element of capturing like it's like calculating like what is the hit rate of this meme going to be amongst like the average person and then on top of that you know there's that like tiny element of like serendipity and luck which nobody can grasp right like that's the hardest part and so sometimes you know when a meme just starts but it's like but it spreads like wildfire but sometimes it's like totally random right and then so um that's why i think there's so much actually you know people are saying oh it's funny or whatever but it's actually an extremely valuable um i guess thing to like study like why people are into memes because it could be you know probably the best way for people to advertise um you know in advertising such a big like um like industry and stuff um and so like spreading information and yeah just like the virality of things and getting if you have any other opinion yeah i mean i think nfts are um in many ways like expressions of culture and internet culture you know look at doge not the coin itself but like the the sheba i knew it's probably one of the most um recognizable if not the most important internet meme it existed before i think it was like 20 like 2001 or something um and and yeah like i think ultimately like younger generations really like nfts because my my long thesis view is like we tend to think of like how you're how you identify yourself i think it's going to radically shift like i don't identify myself uh as a particular member of a country more so than a community in crypto um and i think younger generations understand that like you look at esports like they're probably more there's a higher affiliation to an esports team than to their soccer team and i'm sorry i know you guys are really really passionate about the english premier league here um but like i ultimately think that like nfts allow you to say when you buy an nft or you get gifted in nft it expresses your you're making a very implicit or i guess explicit um expression of your identity and um when you buy a punk when you buy an ape when you buy whatever random nft and i think that's pretty powerful do you have an opinion terran yeah i mean i think another important facet of this is that you know people were stuck inside for a long time and the only identifying thing that you would learn about people you met on the internet especially as people were started becoming more not pseudonymous is their profile picture and so like the fact that people have this like recognizable set of traits that an arbitrary person could see that like represented them in like a single snapshot and people weren't like interacting in person i think that was like the catalyst for a lot of the so it was accelerated by kovit for sure without a doubt there's no i mean top shots the interesting thing was that top shots was the first sort of nft wave right last in in 2020 but it kind of subsided extremely quickly whereas i feel like the boom since february has been like continuing in a way that i there's no way you could have predicted it it's it's wilder than defy summer i think uh there's something else kind of hitting on the covet i mean there's so many there's so many things that are just like not necessarily fun in life right now and it's been that way for a few years and like having memes is is kind of a nice levity that takes us away from that and like i mean how wholesome do you like you see all these posts of like gm and part of it is like can i get somebody famous to follow that meme and it's like a contest of how many times can i get the shared who can i get to do it um like the whole looks rare type thing around the nft community it's just kind of funny to see like who else will go with this how far can i push this can i get somebody else to do it and you hear a lot of people talking about like nfts or jpegs like there's no fundamentals the memes are the fundamentals like how many people can i get to do this who can i get to do this how many times will it get shared we'll go into the next project and it ultimately has provenance and traces back to the communities that started it great so apart from art and memes what other use cases you are you excited about let's start with you santi yeah i sort of alluded to it earlier like uh potentially like real estate contracts um insurance contracts um pretty much think about any liquid asset um and you can express that through an nft um and then what's been interesting is like there's certain taxonomy so like an apartment in in in mayfair no apartment is exactly the same but you have some reasonable data that suggests like look at you know a two-bedroom apartment in this particular region in the city of london should be worth at least x but there's not a lot of velocity to these markets because you know how many times is real estate trading hands but when you can own a fractional piece of a of real estate then you have you start getting better price discovery and so essentially like mortgage-backed securities did this and i know that has like a negative connotation but it is a really interesting concept and it's going to work and it's going to work better through nfts um because what you're seeing for instance with punx is you have a now a base floor of punks and you know you know that it's a base floor punk basically has certain attributes that you can inspect and then you have reasonable like fairly i forget how much liquidity there is in these markets but it's not it's like 100 millions of dollars and so that is you know if if i have a punk that i can then borrow against that punk because there's someone else that understands there's really good price discovery on that and then you start layering on more utility to these um nfts and so um you know the art market the loan art market is massive um so you'll see that in in other places where you know you have accounts receivables that you can fractionalize and you can nft and you get more liquidity of your company and so you start like all these different use cases uh the only the last thing i would say is you know over the last like eight years i've like struggled to like explain to people why they should get interested in crypto and now like there's all these different people that like are buying nfts and i think that's a trojan horse like that's like the email moment of of this industry yeah people please sir you have done nfts for charity um i find them amazing um how do you think uh how do you think communities can be empowered with nfts um well you know for me i have been sort of like interested in investing in cryptocurrency since 2017 um and um so obviously i'm also passionate about the idea of spreading crypto awareness to a larger group of people and i feel like well first um i can feel like there's like a family value like my parents are pretty um into like charity or like goodwill you know they do like volunteering and stuff and so that's just some some values that i have grown up with um and also because i feel like you know there's probably a lot of people who either weren't aware of cryptocurrency um and you know the blockchain things like this um and then so when nfps really started blowing up i was just thinking that it is really honestly it's kind of like a superpower to be able to like create something that's worth six figures immediately right and um i it was just uh something that i felt like it would be cool for me if i could use this superpower um so then it would be like first i'm helping people who don't have access to the same resources as well as um if people hear about it then it's like cryptos associated with something good and then it will help spread the message and be like oh well you know like this person um like you know their life was improved because of like this nft movement or something and i that's something that i hope you know continues and um and i think i have seen a lot of artists becoming inspired by you know sort of like what i did initially and then now also wanting to like you know so for example the first fund that i created with my first um and like the auction which is called the stand with asians fund is now also and it's good with charity because like the blockchain is transparent so you can see where this money is going you know and it's all like there for everybody to see and it's documented um and so this fund is now actually an open fund anybody can go and um you know donate yourself and then so then there were two other artists like there's one really famous artist called james jean who after he saw my job um um donated part of his like part of his nfp drop to the same fund and then the art director from blizzard did the same thing and so hopefully it just becomes this like perpetuating like uh fund that just you know continues to benefit you know subsets of the community i've done other ones like with the fortune um nft drop we donated to charities that support free press um and journalism and so yeah like hopefully every time i do something new it will be like helping a different subset because i feel like you know there's not just like one subset of underrepresented like people or careers or anything that like need help and we can if we have been lucky enough to benefit from crypto and the bull run it doesn't hurt to share it with others super powerful how about you taron um what excites you a power of art memes yeah i think one aspect that may be underrated about nfts they serve as a form of weak identity and so we're starting to see a lot of defect protocols and dows utilize you know special purpose built nfts to kind of have access control and subgroups who are kind of like in charge of certain uh components within a dao and i think this sort of identity aspect is is kind of underrated i think it's the right now effectively the only way to sort of get you know like user groups permissioning things that you're sort of used to in sort of the normal uh programming world on chain um in the sort of efficient manner without strong identities and things like that and i think that will over time sort of lead to better reputation systems and you know hopefully that means more efficient lending more sort of wide scale usage of stable coins uh in in places where people might actually need identities for a bunch of different reasons awesome how are you calling um so i'll take a slight tangent on that i think it's one of the areas that's really interesting is seeing governance mechanisms move towards a more nft based system so you see a lot of the dows that have just voting based off of erc20 tokens and that very quickly devolves into who has the most tokens which happen to be people that were very early on now you still have that in nfts but it's a bit more transparent in where you have them and your votes happen in a slightly different way and i think communities are starting to see well why do i need to have a governance token when i have an nft that does the same job and you can effectively give dividends or things out directly to the nft holders in a much cleaner way technically than you would to more traditional tokens that need staking so you can you can have a token that just kind of sits there and receives and can pick up uh things as they go along so i think from a financialization point of view it's much cleaner than using just staking for a lot of reasons obviously it doesn't work everywhere but it is an interesting new model to pick those things up so i'm quite interested in seeing how people can merge governance and not get into the financial aspects of it but uh giving some kind of benefits to the token holders directly yeah um what about the metaverse what's made of earth can you define it absolutely not [Laughter] no i think uh probably more qualified on that because you guys spend more time on that um i think one of the things that i found very early that kind of struck a chord for me um was looking into and it kind of comes with the rest of it is these virtual games things like decentraland where you can actually own property in this game own a piece of the game uh for people that don't spend a ton of time in nfts uh and you kind of are dismissive of okay it's a jpeg it's very easy to understand okay there's a game you can like the game or you don't like the game there's a spot of land in there and i can liken that to a real spot of land and i can understand why people would pay for this because it lives perpetually inside of a blockchain whether the game lives itself or whether the community following the game lives is another question um but you can understand why that would have a value over buying a piece of land in a more traditional video game that's completely centralized tyrone do you have an opinion yeah i mean i think uh you know maybe a more light-hearted view of it is his crypto red pilled uh zuck into mentioning it into you know of legal filing that facebook's gonna be doing metaverse stuff with air quotes um i think the bigger thing without ownership well yeah i mean that wasn't stated it was but you know it became such a buzzword that facebook had to say they were doing something with it and they like rebranded all their vr and ar too right so crypto sort of caused that in sort of a backwards weird way and we do know zuck has a history of crypto fomo of course um not always well-founded uh but uh you know i think the thing that's most interesting about this concept especially because no one can agree on a deaf well the fact that no one can agree on definition is already interesting but i think the most interesting facet is you're building systems where you know previously the ip of the content was owned by like blizzard or game producers game companies and now it's the users who own it and the economics of that system right the question is like where does the value capture actually happen and whatever that is whether it's the protocols that service the nfts whether it's the actual nft holdings whether it's like the communities that's to be seen and whatever that is is probably what the metaverse is do you have an opinion well yeah i mean i think it's oh kind of just exploring you know i think a lot of people in crypto now say this often which is that crypto is the metaverse and it just doesn't have a ui like we don't have a way to visualize it yet right um and so you know but these are not concepts that are foreign to people like when you for example like i don't know if you'll remember like when covet happened animal crossing became like this big thing um it's like what colin was saying you can own like people have their own islands and animal crossing and you know if you're like really rich in the game by selling a lot of turnips or something then like you have a really lavish island and then you can visit other people's islands it's like a flex and you know these are all concepts that we're um familiar with in the real world like going to visit somebody's house and they're like you must have a lot of money to have this great house and so um the concept of the metaverse or crypto would be like these concepts that we're already um you know familiar with and then like tyrone said but it's like a transfer of ip so that no now it's not just limited to a nintendo game but it in the future hopefully like with the metaverse and nfts it would be cross game or cross cross-platform and just basically this transition of all these concepts that we are familiar with in the real world um translated to the digital realm yeah how about you santi where do you see the future of nfts the metaverse yeah exactly this is where i spend most of my energy now i like after spending a lot of time thinking about defy i see a lot of intersection and i think the parallel just to extend on what these guys are saying is like wechat offers a good glimpse like how that whole financialization of of places like china has taken like totally frogged um financial infrastructure like wechat started as a messaging platform and then has sort of become the everything app every like people do everything on this um on wechat to read news order food have banking and i think in a similar way like i think people come to the metaverse like think of you have the entire distribution of the internet which you can use and then people come to this place knowing that there are certain guarantees that they're gonna own what they produce um and they're going to create a lot of value so you know this whole play to earn movement um that actually sort of pioneered which is especially in covet people get hit hard and you know in places like vietnam and the philippines has just created an entire economy more so than like uber did for you know an idol asset like a car people can just go play axey and make five times more than than the average income and you know is it a fun game if you if it's what you do for a living i don't know like it's a pretty fun game from my perspective but i think it really opens up these like is it crazy to think that there will be like digital uh real estate brokers for metaverse land and you start creating all these different look we're spending more time in the digital world and i think it's going to get pretty crazy with vr and ar anyways um and i think it's going to be explosive like look axi is a fairly young game there's a team that had like less than 50 people sky mavis has a studio and it's probably the 10th or 12th largest game studio in the world now it's going to crank like 1.5 billion in revenue this year um fortnite is doing 5 billion and it's been around for a long time uh and just to put you in perspective like things in crypto don't scale linearly well nothing really does but i think like um it is very viral particularly as you see with open source communities it really starts from a bedrock of you own your ip and i think people really value that now you have a way to just capture that value with crypto tyrone yeah i mean i think the main question is what the interface will be you know we were talking about hey like the ui hasn't been made and in some sense the the hci question of like what interface will be the dominant interface for this world is still quite unsettled um you know in the same way that the mobile phone was not like it wasn't obvious that that would be the dominant interface for the internet i'm not convinced it's it's any of the ones that we see right now they might all be kind of like head fakes and there's a completely different modality in which people uh interact with this system especially given how hard it is to get people to get used to self-custody to kind of this point of everyone wants to own their own ip no one wants to secure their own keys or not no one but most people don't yeah that's true calling do you have an opinion so i think there's an interesting thing in there about financialization i think um i first got into crypto in 2013 and it was still very much like an anarchist type thing and like very on the side and i think that there's some really interesting things that are still bubbling that direction and behind kind of all the fun cute pictures that we have out there there there is the whole concept of having that extra judicial ownership of ip and creating these communities that are truly global and span across borders whether we label that as a metaverse or just different communities i think is an interesting way to look at that and i think that will be a growth area what i question is kind of going tangential off this is fractional ownership of nfts to me seems almost counterintuitive um so i'm not sure can you expand on that yeah so um i mean before nfts really came to the forefront everything was fractional and that was one of the big things about crypto is you can split tokens up into lots and lots of parts you've got 18 decimals by default in most ethereum tokens um and then we went and we said okay let's create things like chubby coins that have 250. okay now let's split that back up into like infinite parts like within a community um let's take crypto punks as an example you're a full-fledged member of a crypto punk community if you own one or more crypto punks how do we consider people that own one-fifth of a crypto punk or pleaser dao is another good way to look at it which is not necessarily fractional but you're a member of that community that owns this thing inside of it and i think that's perhaps a more interesting way to look at it by creating this new tangential community that is the whole ownership how do we create that through a fractional ownership of a single asset inside these communities do they become second-class citizens inside of this what is it but that's that's an area that i think will have to be thought out and i quite like the pleaser dow answer compared to some of the nftx type solutions do you think nfts are going to be bigger than erc20s okay i see you can you can tell us a little bit yeah um well defined bigger yeah i think like in terms of adoption yeah yeah absolutely yeah i think so um i think you'll see more traffic in something like the centerline than times square in the next 10 years just people will connect and like traverse in in the main square of decentraland and it's probably going to be more than shibuya or like times square i think one thing to remember about with fractionalization is you given fractionalization nft has become a superset of fungible tokens and they're basically not a token with the optionality to become fungible in the future right so one thing i think we're going to see a lot more of is is in this world where nfts are used as identity and also gating for functions so like you have a dow a certain subset of people can call certain functions uh in the dow contract um what you might have is you might initially have identity where you there's an individual member of the community who manages a certain type of function and over time that needs to actually be decentralized or split over multiple people and fractionalization basically grants you the optionality for that so because of that extra optionality you know maybe from a myopically financial perspective they should be bigger in market cap because effectively you know ignoring sort of the base tokens but amongst application layered assets they have this extra optionality to become fractionalized versus the thing that starts fractionalize it's much harder to go the other way around for for technical reasons too yeah and i'll kind of go off of that i think at a dollar value um fungible tokens will probably be larger but is a number of things the average human would touch and if teeth will fall or exceed it because anybody can conceptually grasp why i would want to have something that represents these values or gives me a key into these things but money tends to be concentrated amongst a smaller number of hands so i think we'll probably see things like stable coins and things like bitcoin or ether be much larger in dollar value but held amongst a much smaller base more concentrated compared to other things that can be spun up and create new things constantly as investors sandy and tyrone what are you looking at what type of kpis are you looking at when you want to invest in nfts you know in d5 there might be some kpis that people are looking at what are those kpis for nfts yeah so i mean i think we've focused much more on nft infrastructure so like fractional for fractionalization i think like the main thing that we really looked at was people who have experience in d5 building in nft land is are extremely rare and i think like the translational skills to actually have sort of rigorous financial intuition versus um you know nfts are i'd say on the programming side like you don't significant you can be a significantly worse programmer to work in nft contracts in general um and you know i think most of our kpis are the developer quality like in in in in my mind i was an engineer for 10 years so i like really strongly believe that that is the ultimate indicator and also the humans behind it the humans yeah how about you yes um as an investor i look i'm not an art connoisseur bunny straight to the imagination um i sort of tend to gravitate it's easier for me to conceptualize like if i want to express a view that nfts are going to be x then buy the underlying infrastructure so things like openc wearable like some of these marketplaces some of these games um i think you know if you were to say how do you value a punk or how do you value board apes is it worth x or y i have no idea like you can inspect there are certain rarity traits of these things which is gives you some reasonable sense of hey you know there's x amount of hoodies i like hoodies just because i like hoodies and i think they're emblematic of cryptoculture but absent that you know it's very subjective right um so i tend to gravitate on on the infrastructure side of things um for games you obviously have kpis like active users and how the game like how the actual game economy is going to work i think is an open question um and so just looking at users retention what are they doing how much time is spent there um a lot of these games have all of these games having game token so um what is the velocity of that token what is the purpose of that token uh but just yeah just going back to the i would definitely group to roon like you have to particularly when you think about why i like uh people pleasers art is is the values in which he stands for a big part of that was charity and so that to me was why i gravitated towards wanting to buy her art okay people please start to close what are the keys to attract the mainstream um i think it goes back to that um concept of virality that i was talking about um you know i think you need to find a language that speaks to the largest sample size of people as possible you can think of it in the same way like pop music works or something you know you might not necessarily like pop music i don't really but like sometimes i'll listen to pop songs and it literally is brainwashing like you just feel like it's stuck in my head now you know and the people who are producing pop music have sort of figured out this like formula that of you know certain combination of melodies that you know are just better at um permeating the mind than others for example and so um you know i find this phenomenon also interesting with like k-pop groups for example like i think it's so interesting that they have these like factories of people that they choose and then they put together a group of people and then the producers or whatever have found you know a way to come up with this combination of you know marketing and branding and everything that appeals to as large of a group of people as possible and so you know when you're thinking about producing content and this is a lot of times how i think about um producing my content as well is finding the right balance between like it being novel enough that it's not boring but uh new enough that it's you know or i mean familiar enough that it's not alienating and that's a very very delicate line to to find but once you find it um that's sort of the way to communicate with the masses i feel like and capture a mainstream audience all right we're running out of time thank you so much guys thank you