RWAs: Bringing Global Markets On-Chain - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2025

Well, hello everyone. Good afternoon. I think it's uh only a few panels to go for the rest of the whole token conference. Good to have you guys here with us. We're going to get into some meaty stuff.

We're going to be talking about real world assets on chain. Uh this is my second panel this week about this topic and we've seen a lot of talk about RWA's onchain because I think this is where the real adoption is happening for the industry. If you haven't met me before, I'm Samantha. I'm from Yap Global. We're a PR agency specializing in crypto and digital assets.

um been doing this for eight years and I've seen a lot of attempts for real world assets on chain over the years. I think early days they called it you know um STOs remember that term. Uh but now uh it's a different tune. I think that we're finally in a moment where it's a reality. So I do want to open up the panel and just ask and talk about the state of RWA on chain right now.

What are you guys seeing as the ideal assets that are um getting tokenized on chain right now? Anyone can start.

Sure. I think I'll take the first step. It's interesting first of all call out that we use the term RW real world assets. I think these are just traditional assets. Uh we obviously have that distinction because crypto assets seem to have its own categorization.

So RW is a very crypto term. If you tell a traditional banker uh lawyer what a RWO is, they might laugh at you. Uh the first thing for me is uh alternate assets. Uh this might be tokenized bonds, corporate paper, even private credit interest, hedge fund interest. I feel like these are things that are most frequently talked about, most frequently uh held by high net worth individuals.

So that's I think the top priority for me.

Yeah. In addition, I would add I'd say like the MAG seven stocks and US equities are a major kind of you know momento at the moment and being able to offer those types of assets to 300 million people who have accessed crypto um that largely you know probably don't have a Robin Hood account. I think that that is uh kind of the next step for real world assets from where we are today. And then there's a differentiator, right? Are they spot assets?

Are they pers? Are they derivatives? Um and and I think there's a lot of opportunity, you know, within those different categories.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. And I would add um so I guess as a way of introduction, so I'm actually from the traditional finance world. So uh I run a uh licensed broker thin licensed broker in the US uh called atomic vault securities and we are pretty much an infrastructure layer. So we are trying to embed uh the US stock market and soon Hong Kong and Chinese stock markets onto uh into the crypto world and uh offering a full service solution. So from my perspective, it's basically like the first step was stable coins.

That's super easy. People in emerging markets want to hold USD. They want nonhyperinflation. Uh and they want to preserve their the value of their cash. And then the next step after that is they want to invest into global markets.

Um you know tapping into the most liquid assets asset classes in the world. So for us that's you know US stocks is a very major asset class.

I want to laser into what each of you are doing. So let's start with you Cooper. So Injective Labs uh is you know built a crosschain infrastructure for decentralized finance. What unique role do you see Injective playing in the RWA movement?

Yeah, I think it's liquidity infrastructure and being able to offer applications things like as I noted the mag seven stocks both the per and spot side. So I think that we're building module set for developers to create applications seamlessly um and then leverage those applications and get access to traditional equities and offer them in new places across the world. So that that's the you know very exciting part of why we get to wake up and work on what we do every day.

Great. David Drift has strong roots in high speeded onchain trading. How do RWA fit into the broader DeFi ecosystem um that you're building and what you're seeing? I think it does two things. Uh one is it has an alternate set of assets.

I think we're very familiar with crypto yields. It's borrow land products. It's vault products. But all of a sudden you have uh this whole market of traditional products. This is private credit.

Everything I talked about earlier that offers uncorrelated yield and positioning to what we currently have. So I think that's the first. Second is I think this category of like digital asset treasuries essentially public companies. These are securities. public companies that purchased uh cryptocurrencies usually one single one and then they hold it and it just sensorally tracks the the balance sheet of the nav.

I think where we fit in is on drift and what makes us unique is largest derivatives platform on salana today. Um one thing that's clever is taking these interests and using them as collateral on our platform. Uh the fact that you can actually borrow against it for the first time is unheard of. Normally the these have zero asset weight. uh a traditional bank won't give you any borrowing power against that.

So I think this is where this onchain revolution starts to you know really take place and I think we're at the very beginning of exploring all that. Ming, you know, coming from a traditional financial uh background and also uh as a as a broker, a licensed broker, um you know, h how do you see it uh play out with adoption of RWAs like especially with what you know

David on the very more DeFi decentralized side.

Yeah, definitely. I think um one giant problem or uh like speed bump that we run into in the regulated world is whenever you want to access users in a certain country like you basically have to go country by country, jurisdiction by jurisdiction and each time we're B2B. So each time we work with a financial institution, they have something like a couple million users on each platform because they can really only offer their products to whoever they're legally licensed to to access. Whereas uh you know venturing into the crypto side especially on the on the DeFi side um you can just you can just service clients around the world maybe except for you know those that you have to whitelist out IP white list out but pretty much you're just able to access anyone from anywhere and provide services and so the scalability factor is just like way bigger in some ways than

and and and I think we were talking actually backstage about how like accessibility for for anyone to really access these assets will be yeah open for for for the for the assets on chain for anyone.

Well, I mean moving on to kind of the like more techn technology and infrastructure side of it and like how it realistically is implemented. Building infrastructure for RWAS requires bridging the traditional financial world with DeFi. what are the technical foundations that make that possible and uh it'd be good to hear from the panel like how you guys are doing it.

Yeah, I think we were chatting about it before, right? You have a place where price discovery is occurring for assets and then you have market makers, you know, that are hypothetically providing liquidity for those assets across exchange. Um and if they come into DeFi, I think that's the most exciting part. Um, now today

I think this is the part where I get to uh completely take apart all of the solutions that are nonviable in the marketplace today. Um, so I think the common um, you know, the common narrative today is you tokenize something. So what does that actually mean underneath the hood? means first you have a an entity that goes and issues a token that's based on a real world asset. So what ends up happening is first you take in dollars usually dollars from let's say a market maker or a market participant and then what pops out on the other side of the issuer is this like you know tokenized thing and then you need the tokenized thing inside of your wallet or whatnot in order to actually make markets and trade on um on you know centralized exchange or or decentralized exchange.

Um so uh that basically gets into like I mean the core thing in creating any market is you need liquidity right and um the biggest problem right now in the tokenized solution or the way it's done today is liquidity and one of the big reasons is because you're basically creating a separate pool away from the existing very very liquid pool of the US let's say US market or or whatever asset you're you're you know tokenizing um and you're basically forcing all of for market makers to never go short. They're either like zero at best or they're holding on to whatever residual, you know, positions they are in their in their um wallet or custodian. And so you basically you're you're handicapping the market makers in terms of their risk management. And so who's going to be willing to make markets on that? It's it's very challenging and um and that's a currently unsolved problem.

Um and then there's other issues like if you want to go into the traditional US stocks world that's T+1 whereas everything on chain is of course instantaneous settlement. So what you're forcing the market makers to do here is you're saying um you know when you want to buy or sell something onchain you have to you have to pay you have to preund. Um but then when you sell your assets in the real world or in traditional finance world you don't get your money until the next day. And so you basically have to post margin or post collateral doubly and then you have to pay for that financing cost. And so what you're going to end up doing as a market maker is you're going to embed all of that financing cost into your spreads.

And so then the uh in the DeFi world or in the crypto world the spreads are just going to be huge compared to in the regular world which basically completely invalidates your market data source or your oracle anyways. Um, and then your end customer is looking at, you know, what is the underlying price in the real world versus what is the price that I'm getting on chain and they just feel like they're getting their faces ripped off. So that's kind of the problem with everything right now.

I'll take the other side uh where other side is in like the exchange side. When we think about tokenized assets as collateral, let's use a US treasury for example. You know, tokenized treasuries has been a big thing. You know, you can get intraday yield. you can, you know, I can send it to Sam in an instant where normally this would take time to settle.

The the issue with collateral is that, you know, if the if there is a bankruptcy or a liquidation, I need to be able to sell that very quickly and get my treasury. The treasury is what's valuable, not the rapper. The rapper is actually worthless. Uh so you actually have a level of illquidity risk and if if the issuer goes down, what what do I do? So as an exchange, you would want to apply some kind of haircut to it because there's a level of illquidity attached to that rapper.

So, you know, to what Ming said, you either need to post more or per dollar of asset, you get less purchasing power. Both of which are capital inefficients. Like as a as a maker, why would you want to be half as efficient as your peers because of a certain quote asset that you're using?

So then how I mean, so it sounds like it's not that straightforward. Um and there's a lot of infrastructure and like innovation that needs to happen to even just make it accessible to um the wider market. So how do you guys evaluate the tradeoffs between you know public chains issuing assets on public chains permissionless networks or have a hybrid approach particularly like yeah the traditional financial world issuing assets in the decentralized space on chain

will be really easy if the traditional world became T plus0 but unfortunately we don't straight

well to be fair the traditional world back in like the 70s was like T+ 5 and then the 90s became T+ 3 was T+2 and now T+1 in like the 2000s so we've actually evolved a lot if you think about it it's improved 5x but you know we've come from a very very different benchmark to what we're used to so you know when you hear that kind of instantaneous settlement it's a it's a huge infrastructural improvement to you know what we know as trady because you know that settlement window if you're you know waiting for an accounts payable uh that's a long time you might have to wait uh if you want to settle a loan it's like you know counterparty risk But that obviously gets mitigated if you can reduce that settlement time to as low as possible. Going from T plus one day to instantaneous uh does sound kind of scary because usually you know there's that kind of buffer if you look at like a smart contract based exchange you know we won't give you the courtesy of a call like hey by the way like top up margin please you just get liquidated and I think that's something that is still not

you know user behavior that people are familiar with just yet. So I feel like there's still a bit of catching up to do uh before you know you can sort of enjoy the best of both worlds.

Agreed. DeFi users don't know what a margin call is, right? You're either liquidated or you're not.

How how's Injective Labs seeing like uh yeah the implementation of RWA like what are you guys doing?

Yeah. So our ecosystem is working with issuers and those issuers can work with the market makers integrated with the network and then those you know applications can leverage that liquidity and offer you know unique assets to users you know wherever they might be. So we've seen mag seven stocks get a lot of traction things like Tesla or things like Coinbase and Circle um and we've seen it in the form of perpetuals um and the liquidity comes from market makers who then can hedge or offload risk um in in Trafi um and we found that to be a very compelling product to really try to deal with what you know um David had alluded to which is double wrapping the treasuries where you have to have capital which is highly inefficient in two different places. So um that's what we've been working very closely with is you know building infrastructure for as many issuers or applications as possible such that they can offer these types of you know products or applications to the end user wherever they might be. So, Ming, you touched on liquidity.

Um, you also touched on the fact that, you know, stable coin adoption, we're seeing that. Um, and you know, stable the stable coin market is growing. Um, but yeah, h actually a challenge to more of the DeFi folks on the panel. Um, how are you guys dealing with liquidity? because that's actually what also, you know, needs to be there for the market to to grow.

Yeah, maybe I'll um just jump in on behalf of my my D5 peers here. I think um both of them are focused on per strategic decision because

uh you actually avoid a lot of the settlement problems when you're doing PERPS because then you're not really waiting to receive the underlier. they're not really like you can just have you know bilateral or OTC agreements and then you can just pay counterparties can just pay each other whenever they want and so then you can basically match up the settlement and then ultimately it it's it's kind of a question that you know maybe the industry doesn't really know how to answer right now but it's you know do people actually want to receive the underlier? Do they actually want the real stock? Do they really want the dividends? Do they want to deal with the corporate actions and all the headaches there?

or like do they just really want the e economic exposure? And so if you take the view that they just want the economic exposure and that's the main thing then you know per obviously much simpler and more straightforward to implement without and you can avoid a lot of these you know margin issues and you know settlement issues.

Yeah. No, I would happen to agree with with all the points made.

Okay. Well, moving on to like regulation and the legal side of things because tokenizing real world assets means dealing with, you know, real world regulation as well. How are your different teams navigating that?

Yeah, I mean, I'm not a legal expert and we're infrastructure providers, so we really lean on applications to make those decisions. Um, and my GC definitely will be happy with me saying that. Um, but with that being the case, I think, you know, specifically in the US, we're seeing a new regime and a lot more acceptance. And I think that that's very exciting for the industry um at large. And that's kind of our broader perspective is just to continue to be on the forefront of that innovation um and to work with as many teams to to build these products and offer it whether it be you know domestically or or offshore you know as as quickly as possible.

I guess not legal advice whatsoever. I am a lawyer in a past life. I think things like Genius Bill stable coin act have changed like the game significantly from where it used to be. Um without getting into like the technicals, it's a big unlock for people that are doing like you know white label stable coin solutions. So I think like to distill it there's like two things here.

One is collateral, one is payments. Uh collateral payments serve two very very different functions. Uh something that is good for payments might be very bad for collateral. The example is like a tokenized treasury. Like why would you want to have a tokenized treasury versus a regular treasury for collateral?

But as a payment mechanism if I'm sending it to someone you know to a different country different jurisdiction uh that's very much uh far superior versus trying to you know wait you know whatever clearance time or clearing house window that a bank or a western union has to go through. So I feel like that's a distinction that needs to be made. Mhm.

Yeah. I think uh from a regulatory standpoint, if we're talking about the US market, one of the you know major um uh I guess announcements that the um you know Paul Atkins is or Esther Paris and and Paul Atkins have come out with is to say that tokenized like US stocks are securities. And so it kind of goes back to the age-old question of like every time something gets issued like is it a security or is it not a security? and like you know does it pass the howi test does it not pass the howi test and I feel like that's been the same conversation we've been having for the last like five years um in in crypto um but uh but but I do think that uh and and a lot of you know especially folks in DeFi the focus often starts with non US and a lot of it is you know IP white listing away like US and Canada and UK and wherever you know the regulations are more leaning towards starts calling certain things securities.

And so, um, maybe like that that's just where it starts, right? We prove that there's the demand. We prove that maybe we can, you know, do things a bit more efficiently than, um, you know, relying on 70-year-old infrastructure that

frankly doesn't run that efficiently sometimes. and um and seeing if this can you know scale beyond what we've the what we've seen before in the world and we can put it into the hands of a lot more people around the world.

Yeah, it's interesting you talk about um other jurisdictions other than the US. Um, I was on a panel earlier this week talking about RWA assets and there was a spokesperson from DBS um in Singapore and he was talking about how they um initially tokenize bonds and um they had to really be creative with um creating a a proper um kind of structure uh for issuing that in a ve in a compliant way. And this is like Singapore's top bank. Um so actually you know just looking globally which markets do you see um leading um like which markets do you see are positioned to lead on red rwa implementation in the next 12 to 24 months because yeah it seems like it requires actually a lot of creativity and innovation with regulation and legal frameworks. It's a matter of it's usually about the amount of risk you want to take.

Like any lawyer will say like you know it's the role of lawyers and all this is like risk architecting. Uh and I'll give you an example of something that launched recently. It's called XTOS. It's a tokenized uh like Tesla you know SpaceX bunch of other things. Uh and the way it's actually done in the underlying is that it's a Likenstein SPV that holds the underlying and then obviously it comes out the other side as a tokenized wrapper.

you know, look looks fine. But when you think about instances of like share splits, you know, when something happens, I'm like, you know, what happens to the token? Does the token just split? Does it have in value? Do you tokens get minted?

These are questions that we haven't really thought too deeply about. So, there's, you know, a lot of friction to even doing an exercise like that. So, you just got to consider all these, you know, like I guess like fringe cases. In ideal world, it just trades normally. It doesn't sort of undergo any sort of special activity.

But the reality is that you know this kind of stuff happens like what if there's an acquisition does the existing token get deprecated like what does that look like how does it sort of get you know redeemed for its underlying there's a lot of sort of questions on what that all looks like and I think you know this is obviously a good experiment to see hey is the demand uh there and is there take a flow and if there is then we should get more sophisticated so to your question on which country I would say you know usually US equity These US stocks are the ones that are most desired. Uh you know as an Australian I I can't get access to it easily. As a Singaporean you equally as difficult but if there's demand for it then solutions will come about to meet that demand. So it's just very much market forces from there on. But the existing iterations of these are very Frankensteiny.

So I I guess like the the top contenders would obviously be you know all the developed countries. So looking and the crypto hubs of the world. So looking at US um certain countries in the EU although I'm less familiar with the EU, Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai, Dubai/Abu Dhabi. Um and I have to give a shout out to Hong Kong. Um I think there's innovation happening in the RDWA space in Hong Kong that is not happening across the rest of the world.

And I think that there's this common notion that everyone looks to the US to be the leader. But I actually think there's a lot of traditional finance themes and patterns playing out in Hong Kong that are happening at scale and happening a lot faster than in the rest of the world because um I think Hong Kong users there's a really uh wellestablished class of relatively you know frequent not traders necessarily but like lowerend like high net worth like one to one to 10 million kind of USD range net worth traders where they have really sophisticated demands. So they really like structured products. They really like and and the banks in Hong Kong are extremely sophisticated. they create these um you know we talk about like covered calls as if they're like complicated instruments but then you know you go to like stockgen in Hong Kong is creating like not just covered calls or even like equity link notes and stuff like that but they're they're creating these like knock-in knockout like all sorts of like weirdly shaped like snowball like structured products and then and a bunch of those are you know like RWA is that theme is coming in in in into play here because there's a lot of these um these banks and they're creating like even it starts out with you know money market funds.

That's the easiest thing. So these these banks are you know taking their money market funds and basically bringing them on chain and putting them in the hands of not just you know their private clients that can access these things through the banks but now you know anyone who's just able to trade these on chain or um or even centralized exchanges. And so I think there's a lot more communication and cross collaboration between the banks and um and crypto in places like Hong Kong.

That's interesting. Are there any case studies or I know we've spoken a lot about different types of assets that are being tokenized but any particular like yeah example of something that your organizations worked with recently? Uh for us, we worked with Apollo Global Management, you know, trillion dollar asset manager. Um one thing they wanted to do was away from money market products. I mean, I feel we have like 10 15 money market tokens that kind of more or less did the same.

Uh Apollo and one of the partners decided to push out a private credit token. Uh it's called Apollo private credit, diversified private credit, a credit for short. And essentially it's all of you know the private credit wrapped into a tokenized asset. And I feel like the utility of that is is where it gets really interesting for private credit. So for for reference, private credit pays, you know, roughly 8% 9% unlevered compared to say a four or 5% treasury rate.

That gets really interesting for sophisticated holders where they can start to lever that. Can I borrow USD USDC and then loop that and you know increase the 8 9% unlever to like 15 to 17 to even 20% depending on how aggressive you want to go. Uh so we were the first platform to do that uh I think first derivatives platform of any kind to enable that kind of looping. Obviously it comes with some level of risk and it's only available to sophisticated uh investors. So this is obviously a security at the end of the day.

Um but you know it's it's very obviously telling that people are going in this direction. The fact that this utility can be assigned to something like a private credit interest is huge because private credit usually consists anywhere from 20 to you know 20 to 40% of a high net worth or a family offices you know book. So I think that's something that we've had a bit of experience doing with dealing with early in the year.

Interesting.

Yeah, we're offering about 15 US equities uh across our infrastructure currently. Um, as well as we recently launched preIPO uh, perpetuals as well and and there's a ton of demand across the application stack. Um, and I think we're super excited to see that grow and continue to support it.

Where's the demand coming from?

Yeah, I would say mostly from underserved places. So, it's tough to track, but a lot of the time it's coming from places like Turkey, Thailand, Vietnam. Um, yeah. So, I think it's it's largely, you know, people that don't have access. Um I think David chatted on that you know previously.

Yeah we primarily work with kind of like traditional finance platforms um like NEO brokers around the world especially Asia. So doing something like 3 billionish uh notional USD per month and um about like 150k contracts uh a day. um and currently you know integrating with crypto platforms and open to integrating with more crypto platforms um largely and kind of you know uh if anyone's interested could talk but the the model is largely the same as with the traditional platforms as they plug into us because we're basically just the back end.

Yeah. So Atomic Vaults guys do reach out to Ming for that. Um, all right. Well, like I mean just to to kind of end on the global outlook of where we're heading, um, what's the, you know, what needs to h I mean, look, so we've we've the industry's grown up quite a bit. Um, you guys have already shared that you're already, you know, issuing quite a number of different, you know, RWAs onchain.

Um, what else? What needs to happen for it to really take off? I mean, uh, yeah, we're we're at this I think we're in this year where stable coins have really had their moment. Um, that's taking off and so I feel like that's the baseline for growing more liquidity in the space. So, what's next?

Like what needs to happen next? Yeah, my quick tape would be like account abstraction and effectively making the actual UI UX for these products very seamless. I I mean it's the basic answer, but I think it's the reality. Um the downloading a crypto wallet, going through all these different types of things to get to that end product is really a cryptonative thing that probably only people in this room will do, but the guy outside won't. Um, and I think that, you know, working with the product stack that we have and optimizing all that tooling is is probably the most important part to see the 100x that we've seen in stable coins.

I think we've seen that in stable coins because we have legacy businesses integrating stable coins into real products where you don't feel the crypto friction. Um, so I think once we get that uh for these forms of applications that are leveraging this infrastructure, then you'll really see the the the big pickup. Yeah, I think there's different parts that can use a lot of improvements um in order to unlock more volumes. So I think the biggest bottleneck bottlenecks right now are I think probably on the user side it's still trust because it's still it's kind of this delicate play between what's the leverage level that we need for users to feel like um you know I I'm getting I'm putting in the amount of you know amount of money that I want to get the outcome that I want uh but at the same time I don't want to be taking like way more risk than I necessarily thought I was which is I think a big problem in the CFD world for instance and so there's a like very low trust in the CFD world so I think that's one challenge to adoption is if you take a synthetic or CFD or kind of like per approach is hitting that equilibrium in terms of customer demand customer retention um and then on the market maker side I think liquidity is still a huge problem kind of going back to that as a core as a core issue because market makers u need to they need a way to hedge and so that always just when you hedge you have to go back to the traditional finance world and so that bridge right now is just highly inefficient so we have to build a better bridge essentially. Yeah, definitely want to piggyback on that because that is the biggest pain point from from my perspective here as well.

Like some of these folks, they can't even get accounts at Interactive Brokers. Um, they get turned away. So, I think that, you know, there's a lot of friction when finding those places to hedge. Um, and that's got to be sorted out before anything, you know, improve significantly.

Yep. So, improve bridging for the liquidity to flow. Anything else to add there, David? Uh I think you know maybe talking I think you know my fellow panelists have spoken about UX really well. I think on the more sophisticated side private placement fund side which is where I'm a bit more familiar with uh it's just the the current formation of tokenized fund products are really just taking existing fund products putting in a you know electronic wrapper and then put posting it out.

But the rules are the same. um you have to still adhere to redemption windows which is you know you can only redeem 90 days you have to give notice period 90 days so to actually exit Npollo private credit token it's the same as the underlying product and that offers no marginal benefit yes you could say there's looping but there's also you know cost to that so I think that needs to be convergence for you know maybe a different set of rules like this needs to be built for the purpose of you know being default tokenized versus like tokeniz izing as like a feature of a product and that hasn't taken place yet. So you're seeing a lot of frictions, a lot of you know middleman people that provide that service. Eventually that's going to go away and eventually it's probably going to be a bank that like does all of that. But in the interim um it's still very much this sort of mirrored synthetic type of approach.

So you know we sort of covered tokenization but also just like you know what per do is just it's a synthetic position. So, you know, some of these tokenized products very much just look like some form of mirroring where the underlying is held elsewhere and you're issuing you're essentially issued a receipt of a token that could be redeemable for like one unit of a certain stock or product.

So, we've spoken about the frictions. Um I don't know this may be like more of a guessing thing or maybe you guys have more of informed view of this but what's the realistic timeline uh for RWAS to reach a meaningful scale in global capital markets and yeah if anyone has a view on what meaningful scale looks like.

Yeah I mean I think there's what 30 billion non-stable coin real world assets out there today last time I looked I think yesterday. And I think that that number has got to get to at least a trillion hopefully, right? Because the bips that people, you know, make off these things are so small. Um, and I think there's a very large opportunity in the next two to three years. Um, and I think that, you know, we we'll have to wait to see if we have that pickup from retail um or actual users, right?

you know, all the people in the room can love it all they want, but until the the the average person has a reason to utilize the platform. Um, which I don't think that there's, you know, as many compelling reasons today, and that's what we're trying to work towards and continue to support. Um, we won't get there. So, I think that we probably have a two to three, you know, year window to to work really super hard at it, and hopefully we can get there.

Great.

I'm going to say what everyone in the industry is thinking, but maybe not everyone is saying, which is

go for it.

It doesn't matter. We got to get there in the next three years.

Yeah,

agreed.

It just we have to that's what everyone's thinking and everyone's trying to do is just push push push with the next three years because who knows what's going to happen after that.

Yeah, let's do it. Yeah,

I'll give a bearish contrarian take. I think it's going to take a lot longer than we think because you know the standard for how this world operates is still very much reggg first. If the reggg doesn't like a certain thing then that affects the builders, the entrepreneurs trying to push that boundary. So as long as you have that innate resistance, it's going to be very very tricky. So

I I say that with very much like a risk hat on. You know, everything in two three years, um I think I'm going to be a little more practical here.

But I have to say we do have two to three years with a more positive US uh government in place. So let's see what can happen

in that time frame. But um yeah, could uh the audience please give my panelists a round of applause. Thank you guys for your insights. Yeah, great chatting about this. And that wraps up the panel.

Thank you guys.