NFTs and Digital Property Rights - TOKEN2049 London 2022

hi everyone my name is Zach bentata I'm a co-founder at Fair XYZ and I'm delighted to be moderating today's panel on nfts and digital property rights just wanted to make a quick introduction to the topic uh the boom of the nft market during 2021 and 2022 as you probably have all seen has revolutionized the area of digital property rights forever providing creators and collectors a verifiable and cryptographic way of proving ownership over assets even after they've exchanged hands many times one of the first successful instances for example of transfer of Ip rights through nfds was the very well-known board apart Club collection which saw around two and a half billion dollars in sales volume in 2021 and 2022. today we're seeing nfts being used to represent digital ownership across a variety of Arenas anywhere from art fashion music all the way up to digital real estate and even tokenized ownership over companies today we're joined by our three panelists yatsu the founder and executive chairman of animoker a leading company in Digital entertainment blockchain gamification and much more with over 170 Investments I think 380 in nft related companies such as axi Infinity open C and Dapper Labs we're also joined by Dorian Lee who is currently leading strategy and analytics and metaplex building open source technology powering the Solana NFD ecosystem and Marco marquezi who's the CTO at fabricant a london-based nft platform enabling creators to co-create trade and wear digital fashion so I wanted to kick it off with a question to the three panelists we've obviously seen a big evolution in the idea of digital property rights through nfts over the past year we discussed you know artwork music and so on but I'm curious how do you see this really evolving over the next five years what kind of asset classes DC will be covered from a digital property perspective through nfts and what do you think can be the biggest catalysts that could actually trigger this that can start with you Dorian yeah sure so so when I think about nfts right like I think nfts really are just a rapper that can contain all sorts of digital goods and so I think in that sense we're going to see an evolution of um not just all different kinds of categories um but probably different kind of nomenclature for all of those different categories that will start to diverge and be more independent from each other and you know I think that could Encompass everything from you know what you're seeing now where nfts are the building blocks of identity right with pfps and I think those are often taken lightly but I think that's like just a primitive version of that being an avatar for yourself in the digital Realm and you know when you think about the fact that um you know a lot of our waking hours are spent um in digital spaces right if you're working remotely it could be upwards of 50 of of your waking time is spent in digital spaces it makes sense that that digital representation of yourself um you know will be something that's really important um but I think it'll probably expand to all sorts of things um you know it could be anything from you know from from tickets from you know representations of physical Goods such as real estate all sorts of different records um and you know just kind of outright you know digital kind of property um in the form of you know art music um and you know kind of a pretty wide range so I think what catalyzes all of that um is um kind of better infrastructure right like that's what we're building in metaplex to to make it easy to issue nfts um and for creators to protect their royalties um and you know kind of all that underlying infrastructure I think it's things like abstractions that um kind of Hide Away a lot of the kind of crypto based complexity around nfts um and just you know making it easy as as web 2 for the mainstream user um and I think some of it will be regulatory as well um right whether it's kind of regulatory Frameworks for protecting things like royalties um for you know kind of providing Clarity around things like IP and kind of clarity around kind of you know like is it a security is it a collectible um you know kind of tax treatment things like that all of those will will ease the way and I think in five years you know we're going to see a much greater rate of adoption but this transition will what will happen over the next you know 20 years and I think you know 20 in in 20 years it'll be um almost unrecognizable right like how like how much adoption we'll have seen super interesting yeah so I mean I think the one high level parallel to think of nfts is a kind of digital store of culture so everything that we engage with it is fashion whether this is Art whether it's gaming assets uh basically I think it's a first wave and I think the that first wave is really going to come from gaming from our perspective 3.4 billion people today already engaged with virtual Goods where they believe that they own these assets even though they don't and that's one of the reasons why you know blockchain web3 gaming actually has seen one of the major drivers of adoption in web3 and many of them opened a wallet for the first time because of that but they don't trade their nfts because they use them in the game right so that's also a different pattern versus let's say the first wave of you know pfps and art collections which sometimes had a more speculative nature to it so I think you know if you look at sort of the lens of where we are today three billion dollars was invested in web3 gaming this year alone for Triple Eight subtitles which means in the next 18 to 24 months you're going to get a collection of really high quality games that sort of go beyond the first wave of blockchain games that we see like the axes out there which are good games but maybe not have the same Mass Appeal so somewhere between where we are from the millions of people to the 3.4 billion Target that's going to be that adoption so I think you know our projection is that we think that there's going to be hundreds of millions of users on board because of Gaming but I think if you think five years down the road one of the benefits that non-fungible tokens provided as digital property is the ability to have all sorts of network effects composed on top of it the composability of nfts is what's so powerful so what you what it means is that if you have a gaming asset say imagine if it's fortnite you know and it was actually on blockchain which probably will never happen but let's just you know have a thought experiment that means someone else can open fortnite Fashion Week literally sort of by another game studio and players can interact with this that means the way that games will be designed are already being designed is not where the game is a center of experience but the asset is a center experience and games are containers for this because one asset will be experienced in 20 different games for instance and then you extend it in other ways like you know sort of you know marketplaces which you see today lending platforms you know and eventually collateral products because these things have value and have assets but in five years I also believe non-fungible tokens will extend into physical rights as a way to represent it right and and I think Frameworks will exist where you are able to sort of you know kind of what you have with uniswap which is basically a financial product but imagine trading real estate but through an nft that is a contract and composability can add on top of that as well I think in five maybe a little more than five who knows but I think we'll get to a regulatory framework where we can do the same thing as well super interesting marker yeah I think me too I really think the utility interoperability are the key fact because uh internally had in our team as well and myself I constantly challenge myself I ask why people needs to hold something because I mean if you are if you are playing with one game why what is different to hold and I think the concept because for many people is clear I know I I see many tweets like oh ownership we need to raise ownership but actually what exactly mean for someone they doesn't care about crypto it doesn't care about web 3 in general what is the difference I think the difference is where I I think we need to work more it's about showing that actually the value of honor the difference is about the fact that you can move your assets you can use your asset in multiple platform they are still your assets they are not controlled by third-party companies by data center by anyone they can someday unplug and tell no you're not working or on that you're not playing anymore I mean you we know that the reason why ethereum was was created one of the bug that vitalik had is about was about their ownership and the fact that the assets on the game are not something that you cannot I think there is a the challenge is still there in the fact that really this utility is not that the fine way now in in a way that I don't see yet a million people embracing this without any conversation ended up okay yeah but high on what is is exactly mean for me in the future apart the speculation the trading day attracted many people because say oh wow of course if I only means I can trade I can make money a part of that beyond that we really need to find probably a way to onboard masses without kind of uh at least in a more let's say transparent than that touched by from the speculative value way and that's what I I like to constantly to be on that challenge yeah super interesting I mean we were obviously talking about this before just getting up on the panel and also it's interesting what I'm hearing from what you guys are saying that a lot of the adoption doesn't necessarily come from the technology expanding in terms of what it covers but it also more so rather use as being educated about the ecosystem and how to interact with it yeah before you were talking about you know the composability we've spoken about interoperability utility these are all things that do require some degree of savviness when it comes to a user actually entering the space which is why I also agree on the thesis that gaming is probably well it looks to be kind of the primary well the first adopter of nfts really because they are as well usually more technically Savvy users right so education is obviously a big part of um of the onboarding to web3 and kind of the expansion of digital property rights but I'm curious to understand if you think there are you know there are going to be specific avenues that we need to follow to ensure the education of users and of course the onboarding as well I think Reddit for example is probably a good example they essentially had a very anti-nft community that then as soon as it was rebranded as digital Collectibles essentially adopted the technology right away so I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that kind of how you think that intertwines with nfts is a crypto related product versus you know maybe giving up some degree of decentralization for onboarding how does that work maybe I'll start I think there's one perspective which is I guess when people talk about sort of the web 2.5 which generally speaking I'm typically not as fond of but the idea basically that you can onboard end users through a custodial wallet make it easy it's invisible to the process I don't need to know and and just play and experience that and you know millions of users have been onboarded in a particular way but there is a weakness to that right which is that that kind of wallet doesn't actually have the network effects embedded with it so if you have a custodial wallet that was created by a company you know for the purpose of the game it actually almost isn't that different than having a Walled Garden and the result is that you can maybe trade it on openc or you can't give it to a lending protocol or someone else can adopt it unless they adopt your wallet right that is sort of what's not so attractive about that but when you see for instance an example like what x infinity did in the Philippines right actually with yield Guild games millions of people and it's not just Philippines now it's Indonesia Ecuador Venezuela all these places millions of people who don't have you know a University degree don't even have a bank account or certainly a credit card I will have a crypto wallet to play axi and sort of it sort of kills this argument that you have to have a certain level of skill or intelligence or whatever to do this actually when there's enough motivation and good design then people will actually sign up for it and I think for everyone here who plays games or has played games how much time have you spent in the tutorial about learning the game I think especially the new games it's like half an hour right and somehow it's fun in that experience and then before you know it in half an hour you learned a new skill you learned how to play the character you knew something about the lore today we have standards like a first person shooter game is a format for instance or an RPG game as a format we've now been educated through gaming and I think with sort of one of the missions I think for True blockchain gaming is to onboard people to understand decentralization to actually have a non-custodial wallet experience as well if you wish to as part of the onboarding I think can be made fun in the gaming perspective certainly that's what I hope because if we all move towards just custodial wallets then we won't benefit from the network effects which means that the idea of digital property rights doesn't become as powerful as perhaps we have seen so far I love the idea here of network effects what I am seeing especially when I talk to a few of my less crypto native friends is that they usually have been on boarded sometimes to web 2.

5 products almost um and they'll log in using an email or like you know some you know Magic Door link is doing great work there web3 author as well and they'll they'll they'll get the kind of the taster of the web3 experience and then when they really want to tap into these Network effects are you talking about the idea of connecting your wallet to another website then they're like okay how do I export my private key right how can I get this on my meta mask how can I get this on my wallet and I think I think the other problem with that is that um sometimes these things have to happen by accident and when you already have a metamask as unfriendly it is in its initial setup then you can easily plug into an ecosystem but if you are doing a sort of custodial web 2.4 web 2.5 type of product right then you're stuck and the asking that person to basically just inconveniencing him or her to basically onboard and transfer and so the solutions have been to sort of you know transfer to a custod non-custodial wallet afterwards but that's just another step right it's like a migration path it's like creating a mini Bridge within your own game that's not really a good experience either so I think I think there can be better Solutions around onboarding them straight to a non-controllable environment because when a user goes and experiences something and then suddenly not only can he trade he can also do all these other things like move them into different games and uh that's where the magic actually begins super interesting and it is also definitely important to understand that certain demographics will be onboarded into a pure web 3 experience as the number of products that exist within that ecosystem grow so for example Marco you're heavily involved in the digital fashion scene and we are seeing a massive growth in digital assets becoming kind of like a conversation about their importance and the representation of you know physical Goods through blockchain representation for counterfeiting and so on D like how do you how do you see user adoption from that perspective do you see it more web 3 natives with an interest in fashion or fashion natives that are now adopting websites I think I think yeah I think we are in the middle I see I I saw let's say until the past year more fashion native into going to webtrib actually this is a web free explored into the interest on facial because I I think it's kind of common to say that we have to say fashion is not the word cover yourself is identity and when you go into the digital world this combination these identity is so strong this like I say fashion equal identity that you cannot even you get confused you just say is this exactly the same thing fashion lose that kind of original meaning to become like fashion is what you are in the digital world in that sense everyone is involved and that's where we we are interested of course and we are working on and I see the interests of everyone so crypto native say oh wow I will I want to be on digital facial because actually digital fashion is it's not just the PFT as the avatars it's the status the merge of every big communities now is going sold out in two minutes because everyone see that the physical part of that even as a part of the community so it becomes fashion again the way that people represent themselves in the digital and in the physical world and it becomes completely different than what we have shown in the past super interesting I wanted to shift the conversation a bit to guarantee probably what's one of the biggest topics being discussed in the world of web 3 right now and I do know that metaplex and America have taken very strong stances on this over the past couple of months well month rather as far as yesterday for an America which is on the topic of royalties in the world of web 3. so Dorian I just want to kick it off with you so metaplex Studios is obviously taking a strong stance on this you've developed almost your own standard right around enforcement of Creator royalties um in your case if I'm not mistaken it was revolving around the idea of metadata right it was it was kind of a metadata-driven approach how does that I mean do you think there's a trade-off between royalty enforcement and say kind of how much ownership you're really putting in the hands of the collectors not necessarily the creators is there a trade-off there between what you're giving the Creator versus what you're taking away from The Collector yeah so that's a great question and you know I think it it hits at one of the core debates you know at at the center of web 3 is like kind of around decentralization and like what's the right level of decentralization because there are trade-offs um and I think in the case of of royalties right like the way that um nft standards are set up on on you know Solana and ethereum on almost every chain is that royalties are essentially optional because they're enforced at the marketplace layer and they are not enforced kind of at at the lowest level um and so at you know us as metaplex like as as the standards Bearer for Solana um you know we have developed a new asset class that you know enforces royalties at the protocol layer um and so what that entails is essentially is is that there's hard enforcement where an nft um is Frozen unless you know we can prove that the royalties have been paid and so you know it it it raises interesting questions right kind of about kind of like whether that's centralized or not and in some ways you can you can kind of draw the analogy that like what it is it's like imagine like there's a party right and like to enter the party like there's a bouncer and the bouncer is actually like checking you to see if you've paid royalties to to enter that party and you know you can say well like that centralized because the bouncer has control over whether I can enter or not um but the reality is that you cannot enforce royalties any other way because if there's another door to the party where there's no bouncer then people can just evade royalties by going through that door um but you know the way that we think about then offering decentralization in this construct is that there's many different parties right and so um the new royalty enforce standard is essentially um a new party where you know creators have choice right like creators have a menu of options where they can choose to issue projects on a royalty and four standard or they can choose to issue projects on the existing standard that does not have enforcement of royalties and in the same way collectors and mentors can also choose which ones they want to buy so I think ultimately in many ways like decentralization is about choice and you know like you can offer these different building blocks and people are free to choose whichever ones they want to kind of fit their needs interesting I mean yeah on America took a bit of a different approach and it was more surrounding a legal framework I'd love to hear a bit more about it and so I think um one of the reasons we took a legal approach because certainly your approach is also something that you know open sea is looking at The Blacklist approach for instance and then you've got other ones doing other forms of Blacklist or other enforcement mechanisms and out of the fact that you know through a wrapper maybe you can circumvent it the main point isn't is about and this is why we're thinking about the legal framework is web3 you know digital property rights one of the most sacrosanct things is around ownership right and and therefore how do we enable to create as framework that can respect the true property rights around it if there is a central Authority that has the ability for whatever reason um arbitrary or not to be able to sort of sanction you then is it really your property and that's a principal question and it depends on how far a Libertarian you want to think about this right it's a philosophical question but it is an important one to consider as to what is your Viewpoint so we took the Viewpoint that we have to respect property rights so therefore it is less about the fact that we have to enforce something more about that there is a freedom to deny something from someone if someone did something inappropriate in other words for instance if you didn't pay your taxes in your gaming assets then you still own the asset that's fine however we deny you the ability to use the Assets in the game right the utility is denied because just in the same way that if you don't do the care of Duty to your actual sort of Community you don't pay your taxes in your country then maybe you don't have access to this to the benefits of that country that's kind of the same principle we take there but one sort of added interesting thing that we added in the legal Clause was that we did make royalties mandatory uh and I think the problem with the zero royalty approach is that some of the competitive Marketplace have done is that they're basically using the sort of cost of the Creator to grow their market share which is frankly illegal and if not illegal at minimum unethical right and and because normally if you want to go and sort of get market share go ahead and reduce your own fees but don't take it from someone else right I mean that's that's that's the problem we have right now but because they didn't have a legal agreement that protects them because they just assumed it works because most creators don't actually have lawyers that work for them the first thing an artist doesn't do is hire a lawyer right for sure first thing they do is make a painting or or make some music right um so so so this framework which we basically open sourced and allowed for anyone to adapt create a framework where anytime someone trades it a liability accrues so it's a bit basically it means that the marketplace when they start to continue to violate then it becomes like a beautiful thing about blockchain is you can analyze what that cost is so if the you know last year 1.5 billion dollars in Creative royalties was paid that's enough money to incentivize a whole set of lawyers to work for you for free right and again we don't want lawyers to do this but it's enough of a deterrent that maybe we can keep the marketplaces open uh and and sort of uh and sort of honest as a result of this and the main thing of course then what we think will happen is that now creators have a tool available to them and if a Creator does want to create zero royalties because he wants more market share for his collection that's the choice of the Creator it shouldn't be the choice of the marketplace so the legal framework aims to create that which we think will then keep the spirit of decentralization will not uh will not basically affect the actual ownership which is another key perspective as well because at the end of the day if I sold it to you for no royalties uh you know I did I did pay money for it that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be that doesn't mean I don't own it actually but then maybe at least the creator has the ability to deny you utility or deny you certain rights extremely interesting I'd love to hear marca's view especially from the perspective of kind of the digital fashion world and yeah how they how they've taken this I mean our there are two two ways our approach is more complex because we actually pay royalties by smart contract to even the users so because there is a co-creation tool and the users that they mean to they get royalties because are part of the creation process I think everyone actually I'm interested in that in the for example the I saw the super rare approach like paying uh royalties to collectors by Toby given the token so or like other projects that I see that whoever is privileged and shared in Project by someone else is great to talk oh I think all this kind of reward and if we put in that terms of royalties I think it makes perfectly sense and in digital fashion as if we consider as hard is a that makes perfectly sense I think it's more about convince if we talk about collaboration with brands with let's say traditional Brands convinced of the benefit of royalties because the tendency of course is to demand a lot in terms of percentage rather than realistic royalties they will benefit the marketplace and the trading because of course if you started talking about we want royalties of 50 percent is unrealistic to execute something where people see benefit on trading so I think that the topic is still we are kind of young situation about that definitely as a company we are super pro royalties probably enforced by a smart contract I see we have technology why we don't use technology to simplify and I agree Marketplace should not be the the entities to be responsible for that now that we have technology simple enough to create contractive artists now with money for they can create a contract in one minute why they should really care about open C and doing that they should be like a free form and free also to the site who don't have royalties if they see revenue and they see the benefit of people taking advantage of their assembs of royalties I think it's it's important that we leave the world to the creators maybe I just want to add one point about the other thing has to do a little bit with education as well which is that actually by ensuring that royalties are being paid to creators you also ensure decentralization will continue to thrive and do well right because when value is distributed amongst the creators then actually money is distributed which means power is distributed right and that actually is a really important ethos that I think many people maybe don't fully understand because the marketplace if they consolidate all that power which is why I I do have some semi-reservation on The Blacklist approach because it is a sort of small way to try to create a monopoly around it in some ways right it's like you can use here but you can't do there and and that to me is actually less choice for the consumer which means less Freedom as well and as a result it means again a sort of centralization of power right and how do you make sure that the marketplaces and the ecosystems and the creators stay healthy is if you have enough distribution of that and so royalty rights being distributed as widely as possible actually ensures that yeah and actually that's right you know that you know that's a really interesting point and I think you know one way to to ensure that right because what happened on ethereum with with the open C Blacklist is that it's the central list that's managed by openc and you know there's kind of sets of incentives that that are associated with that um but there's kind of another option which is where each Creator gets to choose their own list right and so if you think about what kind of what that leads to right it's like it actually kind of leads to this interesting kind of shift in power between marketplaces and creators and so I think you know ultimately like at metaplex like we really believe in serving the Creator um and I think you know animalca believes that as well and I think you know creators are really the driving force of of this movement right because nfts um in many ways you know they're not just a technological movement like they're they're a cultural movement and you know it's a fundamental shift in the balance of power between kind of centralized Gatekeepers of culture and the creators themselves um and so I think kind of you know like we want to make sure that um solutions to royalties are are in that spirit so I think that's very important to put the creators first um and I think you know like like the way this prisoner's dilemma has played out with different marketplaces going to zero has led to many craters becoming the solution with industry and that you know you can see that debate playing out in Twitter um in in real time [Music] um and so I think ultimately you know it's kind of these you know strong solutions that will protect creators and that kind of leads to the continued kind of thriving of of the nft ecosystem so you know I celebrate kind of all the different approaches that are being tried and um you know I think the legal approach you know makes a lot of sense as well and I think you know the more options there are for creators the better I want to probe you a bit on what you said just before because yeah before you um alluded to the fact that having almost a centralized list of blacklisted marketplaces or allow listed marketplaces essentially creates a power Dynamic where a Marketplace can acquire Monopoly and essentially they guarantee that they get all the volume so it takes some power away from creators and in a way um is not of course good for decentralization um Dorian you mentioned a bit of a different Dynamic where the Creator manages their own allow list but what I'm seeing there is that it almost creates the same difference in power imbalance that we see between Marketplace and Creator but now between Creator and collector because for example the Creator could be incentivized to work with a certain Marketplace because of certain personal incentives that may not be for the best benefit of their collectors right so like I almost feel like the the danger with this approach is that you're Shifting the the issue from Creator create sorry a Marketplace Creator to now create a collector where they can doesn't have that full degree of ownership over their own assets like how do you deal with that yeah so that's a pretty astute observation so you know so I think different approaches to this are being explored in real time um in you know it's it's true that when the creator has the power then you know collectors um kind of then see the liquidity perhaps being fragmented or being more pushed to certain marketplaces but I think at the end of the day as long as there is sufficient liquidity that impacts collectors less than creators would be impacted if marketplaces hold all the power and there's also you know kind of other um other forces that can act as a counterbalance like for instance things like aggregators right like so from from a collector standpoint aggregator is basically kind of commoditize liquidity across marketplaces and and kind of you know pull it all together and you know you've seen that play out um in in a lot of different Industries over time such as uh you know like with travel and and things like you know kayak and Trivago where for the for the user it's just advantageous to to go to to kayak and just see all the inventory at once and so it's very possible that those types of Dynamics will will play out in nfts as well um because it's true that it's the worst user experience to have liquidity fragmented amongst many different marketplaces um or another approach would be that liquidity is aggregated on the back end um and it's kind of shared between all the different marketplaces and the marketplaces then kind of compete not on um inventory but you know on things like um you know the user experience customer service and and things like that so I think you know we're still at the infancy of this industry and there's a lot of experimentation happening um and you know I think you know you know this you know this conversation will continue to evolve over time one one thought could be uh and we actually have this in our legal agreement uh in our draft that we shared to basically the community is uh and this could be applied for this it's kind of like a Dao but what we basically said um in the draft is that in order to change the license agreements and the rights on the license agreement nft holders have to vote with the majority of nfts that are placed so basically making the nft of that collection a Dao in and of itself so you can't alter the rights of the legal agreement so in the same way that you can alter the rights of legal agreement only through the majority holders maybe you can also do the same thing with an allow list or a blacklist where basically either the holders of the community or the collectors um then basically it does still I think keep within the spirit of decentralization because it means the owners of it have a right to say something and if you as a Creator don't own enough of it well then you've lost your vote and that's up that's that's that's up that's on you right yeah I mean that's kind of similar to what x2yt did right around their Marketplace priorities which was in an interesting way for them to turn their takeaway from royalties to then start offering that which in a way got the decent um was well received but from the community to some extent I want to play a bit of dead dead devil's advocate here um and I'm gonna go for you Marco yeah there are instances where and I do want to caveat that I I'm all for Creative royalties with this question but there are instances in which a royalty can almost be seen as attacks on the on the saddle or on the buyer now I do agree that from the perspective of for example artists royalties where they're collecting money for their work it makes sense but you know you're in the world of digital fashion and we're seeing digital being used a lot for for example counterfeit products um as a way of you know verifying their authenticity on chain if as a seller I know that using this you know using using the the nft as a way of verifying authenticity will Levi attacks of let's say 10 of myself as a seller does that not create a negative incentive for some of the benefits of web 3 and blockchain yeah I mean I would say that probably depends in the sense that I see I see collection where I I me personally I'm not too much into the physical side of things for digital professional model digital but is I see people really don't pay much attention on collection where the long-term value is there and the kind of it's clear what is the utility of honing something for example I mean artifact the kind of collection there are other ways where definitely royalty is where you actually own something physical I still see in a in a way like attacks as you say because it's actually make it super difficult to trade is not really adding any visible benefit to that to the community because also royalties the big problem is royalties are seen different ways so there are royalties that is clear that they go to a treasury and so people know they actually they are going to benefit the community other royalties that they go into that pocket of the creators and even if it's legit and it can be legit on any you know for an artist for sure for kind of areas where we're talking about creating more commercial products for example in the in digital fashion physical fashion in that sense of course is less clear what the reason why I should pay 10 every time I trade something like that so it's kind of I will say that uh really depends of the of the collection it's not like I'm not too Pro or cons or or against that kind of things add in general is more really about the context that I see maybe the perspective I would take is that it's about I guess the freedom of the end user to choose if there is a mandatory five or ten percent royalty rate created by the Creator it is the you know it is the uh buyer's Choice whether he wants to pay this including the ten percent of five percent right so therefore is the utility good enough is the art good enough is it worth it because then if nobody buys it the Creator might have to you know have his home his come his own come to Jesus moment and think maybe I need to think about a different pricing point I think the issue with not having any royalties is it creates a free writing problem right and the free writer problem occurs when there's no money that goes into the ecosystem uh where basically uh you know some people pay a royalty some people don't pay royalty then you have an unequal playing field and when nobody starts paying a royalty then there's no system to support it for instance the artist can't make money anymore so what does he have to do he has to make more art right and actually he might have to inflate his art the reason why artists today don't give their rights away like they do with for instance board apes or or other kind of collections is because they have to continue to make money by selling these prints right so the IP rights when you buy art from a famous artist isn't included in this whereas in an area where you can have the royalties you can actually sell the IP rights with it which is why you can have you know board a coffee shops or boarding shirts or Vivian time making body fashion for instance so I think it depends what the product is but the ability to have this kind of tax is actually the ability to create these ecosystems that have emerged that would not otherwise have happened also I think yeah I I like the fact that there is a lot of experimentation I mean you can even have zero royalties and make a business model on merchandising they actually sell way better because people get more money because they don't have to pay royalty so it's actually I like the fact that there is no one way to do that and the fact that probably 99 of the project will fail getting the wrong business model is actually the way to make successful for the one percent and this is definitely interesting yeah it's super interesting I mean the idea of no rights reserves cc0 for example which emerged earlier this year I personally thought how is this really going to evolve into something that's valuable but then at the same time you have Moon birds still doing well you've got Goblin Town which is like one of the hottest collections still in this market and they're all cc0 but anyway um I think this is our time uh please join me in thanking our panel for uh sharing their thoughts today and yeah thank you so much for joining us today