Venture Investing: Deploying Capital in Crypto’s Next Chapter - TOKEN2049 Dubai 2025

Hi everyone. It's a great pleasure to host this very exciting panel on the future of venture investing. We have a very exciting high-profile uh lineup of great investors uh here. I'll let them introduce themselves uh in in a short while. Um first uh about me, my name is Shaw Sha.

I'm an operating partner at KKR uh one of the leading investment firms in the world with 600 billion assets under management. I lead the digital asset strategy where we invest amongst other things into some of the best managers in the space. Um very excited to uh host this panel and uh I'll pass on to Akshhat. Thanks. Uh hey guys, my name is Akshhat.

I'm head of investments for Ma co-founder partner um which is the family office of Arthur Hayes. We've got a liquid strategy, venture strategy, and we're getting into a new space that we're happy to talk about at the the rest of this uh panel. Yeah. Hi everyone. My name is Kelvin Co.

I'm one of the co-founders of Spartan Group, which is a global advisory and investment firm and I focus on the investing side and like uh what Akshot does, we have a liquid fund and we've got two venture funds. Hi everyone, my name is Ella. I'm head of managing partner of uh easy labs which know formerly Binance Labs. So basically we're managing the uh money from CZ's family office and we have over 10 billion of asset under management. We do incubation and also liquid strategy and um uh direct investment.

So my name is Victor. I am the founder and CEO of Rockway X. We manage roughly two billion dollars now. Half of it is investments and half of it is engineering. We are now Dubai based since last year.

So 45 people and 10 people are actually based here in Dubai. We are opening Solana City next week together with the foundation. Excellent. So um just diving into the whole space. I'm I'm sure everyone you know is some in in some way related to the to the crypto venture investing space.

If I sort of take a helicopter view on the entire market right of where you could as an investor invest into this uh right now the latest estimates that we have on the total market is that uh roughly there's about 70 to 80 billion of total AUM in venture investing in crypto. So all of the cumulative fundraising that has been done if you contrast that to the sort of public and more liquid side of things um we see about 15 billion of um liquid directional AUM so much smaller um and then about even smaller 5 billion AUM in uh liquid market neutral strategy. So these are essentially the three types of investments you could do. If you compare that to the traditional markets it's the other way around. So it's actually 20% of venture illquid and 80% is actually hedge funds and liquid.

So crypto is actually you know completely lopsided in the space. If you look at the trends then in the private side of the the markets uh 2024 we had roughly 10 to 15 billion of VC funding deployed uh into the sector and that's about 20% increase from 2023 but it's a about 50% down from the peak in 2021. So we are sort of in this phase of you know going down and and and picking up again but still far away from the peak in 2021 in terms of total deployment into the space. That invites me to the to the to the question, right? There's a lot of uh things on Twitter and and people said, right?

There's questions about is this venture investing model in crypto still sustainable? Right? Um and I'm going to just formulate in a in a more provocative question. Is the venture investing model dead in crypto? Because some of the questions and challenges we've heard is is around you know successful founders have found alternative ways to bootstrap and and and found the biggest examples hyperlquid uh um echo is a is an investment platform where you don't need VC investors necessarily uh and then you know you also have the micro strategy and right that that buy directly sort of liquid tokens um so what is your sort of view on on on these challenge uh maybe I'll start with be you know um victor yeah so I think it's just a natural progression of the market where we are versus trefy but maybe just for the audience to take away like one point we are actually shifting our strategies more from VC towards restructuring so restructuring of liquid tokens so for example we acquired idle protocol if you remember it was like an old protocol generating yield on D5 on Ethereum we acquired idle we are restructuring so sunsetting the idle token and restructuring and relaunching the platform aspareto.

Second example is reinsurance. Names.com maybe some of you heard about it is a reinsurance protocol initially on Ethereum. We acquired names.com suns setting the token rebranding to HR and launching on Solana.

Ella I mean you have a huge amum. I mean you invest in multiple strategies. How do you think how do you balance this sort of challenges? Are you seeing similar challenges and how do you sort of rebalance the total portfolio? Yeah.

So, first of all, I I don't think um venture investing will never die. Um it just there are so many ventures and uh the venture investors uh fiduciary just to capture the upside um and create the value in the process and by helping founders to to provide u additional value to help them grow. Um so for uh easy labs we established seven years ago with the mission to help the whole ecosystem to grow. So basic our belief is that when the um ecosystem grow everyone will get u benefited and so we invest a lot of time uh into incubation not that that that part don't acquire a lot of capital but the outcome was um just the best um we see the the best um multiples come out from our incubation. So basically the there's polygon and injective and Athena all those project actually come out from easy labs incubation program but uh we have such a big aum to deploy right we also see there's so many good um projects that out there post TGE um we have potential to bring them to the next level that's the reason we establish our in investment strategy we call it downbell one side we deployed massively into a very early day one founders and try to be the first check in and the one side when the uh project they grow more mature they have good product they have um uh the good fundamentals we bring our capital to help them to grow to the next level.

We hope in this way we helped u the whole ecosystem to grow robustly and I would highly recommend to founders to work with easy labs because they never sell. So for example, one in we co-invested together. Some VCs sold already. We haven't together. We haven't.

Thank you. Yeah, we are really uh long-term holders. Um I think this is very closely tied to the vision of CZ and the uh Binance co-founders to try to uh long long the whole ecosystem. So um we hold typically we hold the token through the cycles. So I agree with Ella.

I think uh venture investing will always have a place in crypto and uh the reason is because you know uh venture venture fund investors we invest across the cycle right we are not only investing when the market conditions are good right even when um the market conditions are terrible when we're in a bare market and there's lack of funding um the venture investors step up to provide um the capital and to help these founders to to launch right so I think there'll always be a role for uh VC capital um but I also spend spent uh almost 20 years in traditional finance and if I look at the way that the crypto market is structured today versus you know the equity markets um the big difference as you said is that there's a lot more capital on the um on the liquid side uh as opposed to venture in the in the traditional markets and if I look at the crypto um landscape today what is missing from the investment landscape is the uh presence of these long only funds right like you have uh the troll prize capitals and fidelity ities of the world um in the traditional space and we don't have the long only funds yet in the uh in the crypto um investing landscape. So I think they will come you know once regulations are in place you know I think you'll see all of these uh traditional funds come into a space but it may take you know one or two more years um before they come uh we may also see some cryptonnative investors eventually sort of leaning towards a long only model right where today I think most of them are structured as a long short type of um strategy. Akshhat I mean Mstrom has a you know liquid background obviously right uh how how has the sort of venture part of the portfolio evolved yeah so Maelstrom was founded in 2023 and uh there kind of you know the depths of the bare market um for us we see it as a very much a cycle dependent decision so wherever we are in the cycle that's where we make our bets uh so in year one we're focused on venture that was kind of like you know valuations were low a lot of the um superfluous business models and and founders had been washed out and you had really high conviction, high quality founders building at that time. Um, in 2024, you know, things started picking up a bit. Um, we added on our liquid strategy at that time and now here we are in 2025.

Um, not really doing very many venture checks. Um, and uh, starting to build out new strategies. But I think, you know, to to answer your question more directly, is venture dead? Um, I think venture is just going to evolve in crypto, right? Because a lot of folks are are tired.

retail like everyone who's actually the revenue model for for all of us on on on the stage here is tired of the same strategy of um VC back tokens right the insiders get in first everyone else is basically exit liquidity the sexes charge their 5 to 10% fee um the rent seeking I think people are tired of that so we're just going to have to evolve as an industry and that's going to start with how venture investing is done so we'll see how that plays out and maybe chao at one point like You know 80 billion you said for VC, 50 billion for hedge funds and 5 billion for private credit. I think right 15 15 like also like a blurry line because many VCs are actually allocating to liquid liquid. So our newest fund uh we just announced 125 million raised 30% goes into liquid strategies. So there is a blurry line. I think maybe here a question for the for for for Victor and and Carving since you're managing essentially external LP capital.

One of the challenges of the of the venture model, I'm I'm an allocator and talking to some of the other LPs and allocators, they see the outsiz return potential that this brings, but um but there's an increasing need for DPI and liquidity and that's sort of a main differentiator amongst the sort of asset managers. How do you reconcile sort of that pressure, right? Selling pressure as well as sort of Yeah. So I think fully liquidity um look we have 80 LPS 80 for um you know altogether maybe $400 million raised across all the funds. So the V two VC funds and one private credit.

Uh especially today LPs are looking for DPI. On the previous fund we had 2.1x DPI when we started to raise second fund. So that helped but myself I invested into 34 other VCs crypto VCs. It's a good sample size.

Only four of them have some DPI. So only 10%. If you take that sample to the overall market you know hundreds of VC fund it's definitely a problem. So there is a more and more shift from from VCs to you know just returning cash. But I I think part of the problem is that you know when when we first started doing VC investments back in 2017 right in in the crypto space you know the deals typically had no lock up no vesting right so you invest and when they get listed you have full liquidity.

I'm not saying that's the best model, but at least the fact, you know, you don't have the problem we have today where you have a lot of tokens that uh have this high FDV low float problem, right? And some of the floats are even as low as, you know, I heard yesterday from somebody there's a particular protocol that's got 0.5% float. Like I mean that's right? So, so you have this problem in industry and and the problem's been created over the past few years because of the new vesting schedule that we typically have today where it's one year lock up and multiple years of vesting, right?

And not a lot of float. And so, you don't get price discovery, right? When you don't have price discovery, you have valuations that don't make sense. And so, retail investors are not stupid. They look at these valuations and it's like, you know, it makes no sense.

I'm not going to buy this token, right? So, we we created a problem for ourselves, right? Um and uh so I think we need to evolve the model you know as Axot said right to uh make sure that um the vesting makes sense the lockup makes sense and there's enough liquidity for price discovery right and you know from a venture you know fund standpoint part of return part of the reason why the returns or the lack of DPI exists is because of this long vesting schedule right um and when we launched our first venture fund in 2021 uh we certainly weren't anticipating such long vesting schedules uh And now fortunately when we set up the fund, we created a 5-year fund plus a 2-year extension. So we can manage the vesting, but it just means that you're not going to get DPI so soon. You know, our first venture fund was launched 2021.

We took three years to deploy and then now we've just made our first distribution and we're going to continue to distribute. So the DPI will come, but it just take a little bit longer than expected. That's a great segue into the next restaurant because you know you're leaders in this sort of crypto investing space and given these challenges right both from the retail push back LP sort of pressure and then founders sort of adapting new to new forms of fundraising how are you adapting your operations or strategy of how you sort of invest um in light of these challenges right to kind of continue to be successful maybe a start with you yeah I mean as a family office, we're very flexible, so it doesn't really impact um us operationally. But I think, you know, just zooming out a little bit, venture is going to get harder in crypto because before the hardest part of venture was getting an allocation was more important than the actual quality of the company and your diligence diligence. Um that's evolving now, especially with these new like fair launch models.

You look at Hyperlid, right? They didn't need the sexes to collect their their fee in the middle for no reason. Um, it's going to get harder and harder for VCs because now you're going to have to actually compete directly with retail. They have as much information as you hopefully in an ideal world eventually. Um, and it's not going to be about who do I know, who can I get an allocation from.

It's what is the quality of this project, what's the trajectory look like, and uh, it's going to get a lot harder. You're going to see a lot of funds get washed out in that process. Hey, Victor. I would say uh I would say, you know, controversial view, no more billion dollar protocols. I think the, you know, the VC fight of, you know, the next L1, it's over.

I think the game is now given and it's basically Solana potentially some super fast EVM. My bet is monad but I love mega ETH you know and of course Ethereum I think will recover with ZKVMs and and uh and you know base layer uh rollups but I think that's it now I think the VCs have to understand that 100 billion protocols are over and they are investing into you know DeFi and other use cases where the the most successful protocols are billion dollar companies. So I think the 2017 game of you know 200 300,000 tickets into like many L1s you know which will become 100 billion protocols it's over. So there is fight for ownership and so that's why VCs are now adding more and more value to the founder you know DMM designated market maker running the validators providing liquidity to their protocol to increase TVL running solvers because you really want to be the key partner of the founder and maximum to be aligned with the founder on also the token ownership I think that's what's what's been changing how I mean you can bring obviously a lot value right given the background to to the founders how how how is your approach changing you know in venture investing what both in terms of valuation maybe how you do diligence I I I generally love to hear like how you guys actually diligence about which companies to invest in and which ones to pass on actually yeah yeah so good question um actually overall easy labs we're trying to focus on long-term founders And um how do we identify long-term founders? Um we have a strong focus on why the founders are building this, why this matters to them and uh whether or not they are driven by some short-term uh financial returns or they want to solve a big enough problem and do they um uh have the right skill set and background to to solve it.

We ask a lot of why questions when we talk to the founders. Um and another way uh we try to solve the problem is try to add value because no I myself was a founder for a few years and I really get humbled being the founder role. Um no no founder is perfect. No founding team is perfect. We're trying to add value to help them uh make up the capabilities they probably lack.

There are a lot of tech co-founders. They lack of the understanding of how to raise funding, how to go to market. There are also some founders are very good at sales, but probably they lack of CTO. So, we're trying to build a a big um talent network try to try to help them solve the problems and incubate and um uh help more uh more project to be healthier. So, we interviewed a lot of founders.

the the two main pain point for them is when they have a good enough product and go to market and another one is to recruit good enough key key people. So those are the areas easy labs and trying to build internal uh talent um pool to help our over 200 port portfolios and I um have a third point is really um that um our whole team I think overall we're um op very optimistic for the future. uh even there's cycles we see we're at a very interesting and crit critical moment that the combination of web 3 blockchain AI will really um significantly change the human society but there are so many big problems haven't been really solved yet the data privacy data ownership and how to uh make everything secure enough yet transparent and fair fairly distributed as long as there are big um in big enough problems to be solved and there are a lot of builders we see a bright future um that we try to join them to build. So I had a couple of more points. I I agree with a lot of the uh comments that um Victor mentioned earlier about the infrastructure layer versus the app layer and um you know I think we and I've said this many many times right that you know till today we still don't have many apps that is widely adopted right and people keep asking so who's using crypto right still asking that question I guess now we have stable coins but um really we need more applications we need more application builders right Because all of the money that we've poured into infrastructure over the last few years is great, but if we don't have a billion users in crypto in the next 5 years, then crypto is meaningless, right?

So, we do need to invest at the application layer. And we've been investing at the application layer since we launched our first venture fund in 2021. Um, focusing on DeFi and then 2022, we launched a fund that's focused on gaming. So, we're doing our part and I hope uh many of the other venture funds will do the same and and and start taking more risk um and back uh some of these great uh application developers that that that want to build real stuff on crypto rails. Um in terms of how we add value as a venture fund, I mean we do a lot of things for our podcast.

Uh we help them with marketing, we help them with liquidity provision, connection to exchanges, market makers, so on and so forth. But I guess the thing that I find most satisfying is you know earlier today I met with two of our portfolio companies before coming here and um the moment I met them they came to me and they gave me a hug you know they gave me a hug and they said you know we love you you know you were the first one to invest in us to believe in us and market conditions are difficult and we're still here building and you know we like the fact that you you trust us right and you go through the ups and downs with us and you know we couldn't have had better investor Right. So that's the thing I think we aspire to be the the to build that kind of bond with the founders and help them succeed. Let's switch uh gears. Um more spicy question um exit strategy because obviously as any investor you invest into something to sell it hopefully at a higher price.

So um that's how you generate returns whether it's for external LPs or internal stakeholders. um you know given the current environment right slightly depressed public markets um how do you how do you how do you balance that sort of hope for a big return you know in the long term right you have conviction in the founders with the uncertainty in short term right because a lot of things might happen that are completely outside of your control tariffs you know macro uh things that happen outside of crypto right blowups black swan events we did and the need for your stakeholders to say well you know I'm okay with a 3x return or 5x return I don't need a 100x dream take money off off the table and return some money now um how do you how do you balance that um maybe ashot yeah I mean again what is author telling you yeah as a family office again we're very flexible right so we don't have any requirements to to deploy and and then pay back at a certain time frame U I've got one LP. It's Arthur. And um I think you know how you get out is a function of how you get in. So if you get into a deal through a a locked uh round with with a three-year vesting schedule, etc.

, then um that's that's how you're going to get out, right? And if you get in liquid, you can get out liquid. Um there's also, you know, a lot of VCs nowadays in crypto uh have other revenue streams that are attached to the to the VC investment. So the venture investment might even be a loss leader. Um but there's advisory shares, there's like you know we can incubate there's there's a bunch of stuff they do to collect fees on on other um parts of the business.

So sometimes venture investing when you see certain brand names you're like oh it must be you know they they must really believe in the project which is true but they also often really believe in the revenue streams that are attached to the project that'll benefit other parts of the ecosystem that that they have of their business. Um, so there's other ways to exit to get exit liquidity like that if you're if you're a investor in crypto. Um, and then you know for us we're we're lately we've been pretty excited by equity deals. So not necessarily token deals but companies that generate cash flows and um you know cash flows stream down to the the equity stack. So we've been doing a lot of diligence in in that category um with again that that later down the road gives you the option of getting paid in dividends.

Maybe there's an inorganic exit, someone acquires the company or a token that gets launched eventually or a mix of all three. Victor. Yeah. So I would say since uh the new administration in the US, there is a new trend is that American cash flow generating companies are acquiring our portfolio companies. So couple of public information.

Helio was acquired by Moon. Another company acquired by Moon. It was just announced I think today that Ripple wants to buy circle you know like and there are a lot of you know like cash flow generating companies in crypto. Tedra is also acquiring. So I would say that's a new trend which I see.

So recommendation to founders and other investors right now I would have is don't go into token only deals. We are token investors but we invest into equity and we get a token warrant because you actually don't know how the exit will happen and it might be that another cash flow generating company will acquire your team. Yeah, I mean we have uh external investors as well and so we have to think about distribution. Um and I would say it is a balancing act, right? Um because on the one hand you want to return capital back to investors but on the other hand you want to stick on with your portfolio founders, you know, for as long as you can.

Um so so we try to do that as as as much as we can and we typically don't invest with the idea that we're going to get out in this cycle, right? We plan for actually the next cycle. So that gives us enough breathing room and gives the company enough um time to mature right which is the key thing to find the product market fit. Um and uh as I mentioned earlier we're starting to make distributions now um and we do have the benefit of you know having made equity investments as well as token investments. I guess the equity exits uh maybe a little bit longer but sometimes easier like uh for instance we invested in circle and obviously if they do go public within the next three months then that's an easy exit right for us.

Um the token investments I think there's always a misconception in the public arena that you know when the moment VCs get their tokens they dump it. Uh that is I think a real misconception. I mean there are projects where we've had 100% of tokens vested a few years ago right two years ago and we have not sold a single token right and the reason is because we don't think that the company's mature yet. you know, we think the token can actually appreciate further, right? Um, and when it comes time to sell, we also don't sell everything at one go, right?

We typically phase it out over one, two, three years because the last thing we want to do is have the token price chart go like this, right? And then people start asking question, what's going on with this company and so on and so forth, right? So, we want to make sure that when we sell, we sell because there's demand and the tokens go into safer hands and we'll continue to hold those tokens and and you know, we have a beautiful price chart as a result of that. Ella, I mean, Easy Labs is famously, I mean, Victor said it, you're long-term holders. Um, but the statement never sell, you know, that also cannot be true.

So, um, what is what what is your thinking on sort of exit exit strategy short-term versus long-term? So I think uh it's impossible for investors saying that never sell right. So if I say that that's a lie. Yeah. Um so I think the overall strategy is long-term even our liquid strategy.

Um we are not doing high frequency trading. Um we are uh um kind of uh uh analyze the um the uh fundamentals and try to um hold the fundamentals. uh the the assets have the uh good fundamentals for a long period of time. And over the past of seven years, we see the highest re return and yield actually come from the very early uh project that we still hold today. Um our as um our family office were relatively um flexible.

Um but uh our principle is as long as the founders are building the founders are not front running we're holding and sometimes the the even the projects is in the difficult situation but founder have a lot of conviction and they need extra capital we will help to pull in capital to support them to grow uh but I agree with uh Victor on one one thing that we we uh don't only invest in tokens we invest in both equity and tokens because there's a uh several lessons learned. Uh their projects or we only invest in tokens and we help them to grow um they exit um from the equity side that's there there we cannot kind of capture any upside. So now when uh we typically do uh equity plus token investment. Excellent. I guess next question is you know you talk about that all the time but you know narratives right this is in crypto space this is like it's it's still a space full of narratives and narratives come and go and they change you know as value investors ourselves we don't believe in in narratives right we we need to sort of see numbers and you know um cash flows but like it is important here how have narratives changed for you what are you most excited about and what are you saying you know those narratives are not that that used to be that narrative and now really you're it's a red flag for you.

maybe a shot um to have a view here and maybe just you know just help prompt like you know for a long period it was all about infrastructure investing and now like I think there's a consensus that we need to on board more consumers and and institutions on the application side like what's how has your waiting changed maybe between these yeah um so for us again you know we follow the the market where we are in the market cycle um so in the beginning of the market um cycle that we're in now. 2023 we're focused on mostly the infrastructure stack. Um 2024 got more into apps especially in DeFi and stable coins in particular. Um and now for us um we've done a lot less venture investing and we've started to look at uh I kind of alluded to this earlier um some strategies that are outside of just the standard token early token investing model. Um, and one of those things that we're excited about now is um, the opportunity to potentially do private equity style buyouts in the crypto space combining playbooks from Tradfi and crypto.

And um, there's there's a few different categories that that you know that that could fall under. There's some businesses in crypto that are highly profitable um, that don't have a token model but should. There's some that are highly profitable but probably are in a very crowded marketplace where there should be consolidation. So rollup strategies are are need of the hour. And then there's some companies in crypto that are doing well, but um the current management team, you know, they're they're great at taking it from zero to to one, but you need a whole different um strategic leadership team to take it from one to five.

And those are the three areas that we're looking at. We're market mapping pretty intensely right now. We're sourcing deals left and right. And uh we'll probably hopefully get something done by the end of the year. Can I ask you a personal question?

Yeah. So Arthur said on stage yesterday, you know, it, go all in. Yeah. So are you guys now all in? Do you have any cash left?

[Music] Reason he said that is because he told me that as well. We we so we we exited a lot of positions in December and January uh before Trump took office and it ended up being a really good decision. Um a couple weeks ago he was like, "Let's deploy what we've got." So we're we're going all in. Yeah.

But in strategies as I mentioned, right? not necessarily just token stuff but also equity. Kevin, yeah, I think uh narratives are important, right? Because everything that we're building in crypto is early and usually and and narratives doesn't mean that there's no fundamentals, right? It just means that it's early and there are no results or numbers that you can see yet.

Um so you need to weave the narrative so that people get an idea of what a dream and a vision is, right? and um and and and because we uh through the venture fund sort of invest so early typically at the seed stage um where these projects will not have fundamentals yet right so we need to find founders that we believe in right that have the narrative and the vision to want to build something that could evolve into a billion dollar you know project um so I think it's important and uh there's nothing wrong with um you know sort of narratives and uh yeah I think crypto needs to eventually deliver um and go beyond the narrative but the starting point I think is is okay with narratives. Hello. So it's just another name I think uh in equity in NASDAQ companies do know uh ro shows they also tell stories and uh great companies have good stories and good uh vision. It just in crypto we somehow to use narratives.

Uh there's nothing wrong with it. Um so narratives also also change right from NFTTS and memes and um for the next we see a lot of um um um building towards RWA stable coins um AI agent um also um payments we we definitely think it's a probably under underappreciated um narrative where we can say it's a problems to be to be solved and app uh the future application to be built. Um, yeah. So I think Jeffy there's stories or directions we should like focus more but the the real thing is like what's a problem you're trying to solve and after solving this problem what's a big bis uh what's a good business behind and what you can potentially create value to benefit the human society that's the narrative we we believe in very good I think just just maybe to um say one like investing into narratives is the best way to lose money. Yeah.

Because narratives you know they come then they go and then maybe they come back. Yeah. So like for example NFTs I think are not coming back. AI agents you know if you were investing in like December maybe you know virtuals at like you know 0.3 maybe November AI6Z at like I don't know what was it like 01 then went up to $5 and like to up 06 and then now it's like super depressed like 0.

4. for 0.4 virtuals and 14 for access. So it's very tough. The the better strategy I think is to see you know where the traction is.

I think ZK as a narrative is coming back because Ethereum has to shift to ZKVMs to actually you know fulfill their vision. So but like fundamentally if I step back there are only three use cases which really make sense so far. Number one is trading in crypto in spot and derivatives. We are trading as much per day as NASDAQ. I think that's a great trading use case and we invested into hyperlquid breakout prop.

You know with breakout you can pay $500 to test and if you pass the test you get $100,000 worth of you know crypto to trade with. Second use case which really has traction is stable coins and we are using as much stable coins as Visa and Mastercard you know payments volume per year definitely use case including yield generating stable coins like Etheina and third one is yield onchain and I think that's the next step because we'll have more and more crypto owners more and more owners of of digital assets and they will want to generate yield on chain that's where we are investing now so we are investing for example in reinsurance onchain to generate 24% And we are investing in um private credit protocols like Pareto. We are investing in fragmetric you know Solana staking. So that's I think where the value is until the end of the cycle. Closing statements.

We're running out of time. Akshhat one contrarian belief you have uh about venture investing that others might not agree on stage. Or anyone anyone? Ella start. Yeah, you can go ahead.

Yeah, I can um talk about ours. I think a lot of people just um don't have much conviction in Ethereum. I think we still bullish on Ethereum. We think uh Ethereum is a fundamental belief of uh the next generation of um internet and uh Vitalik is very smart and great founder. Um as long as he doesn't give up, we think Ethereum won't go away and still have the chance to to come back.

So we are the Ethereum holder and we hold it for long term. That is contrarian. Yeah. Is there some applause here? Good.

All right. We need that. Calvin, any anything? Yeah, I think we will see the revival of the AI narrative or AI agent narrative um later this year. You know, I think um I mean obviously they had a big sort of runup in um 4Q last year and pretty much gave back everything um in in the first quarter, but I think we'll have uh a reemergence of that theme later this year.

Yeah. without a one. Yeah. Um I think that purpose-built blockchains like 95% of them are a VC scam that's going to be pushed on to everyone else. Okay, Victor, I would say, you know, just sometimes forget about work.

All that matters in life is love. So, you know, love your founders, help them, they'll be successful, you'll be successful. What a great great closing statement. Thank you guys. We're out of time.

Was a pleasure.