Scaling Blockchains: Building the Decentralized Economy - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2022

all right welcome everyone thanks for coming uh thank you for coming out late in the day to talk about this here uh so I think one of the things you'll notice about this title is it encompasses pretty much everything you could possibly want to talk about about blockchains ever so we're not going to talk about everything because it's easy to spend a lot of time talking about various scaling Solutions various strategies for building a decentralized economy again arguing over the world decentralized arguing over the world economy arguing over the word blockchain there's lots of things we could talk about here so instead I think we're going to start off by focusing is the best up time oh yeah yeah we could always talk about uptime that's one of my personal favorite subjects um so if you can't joke about yourself what are you doing here so uh that's actually a great place to start I want to talk a lot about design decisions trade-offs um everyone's approach to scale in any piece of software always has trade-offs there's no such thing as a piece of software with no trade-offs someone at some point or a group of people at some point made a decision to say we're going to build this thing this way and we're not going to build it another way so for example right Solana a lot of the design decisions made on Solana are to maximize throughput at sometimes move really quickly with software development and sometimes that's not the right decision right there's been periods of congestion on the network there's been several outages on the network that's a design disc and I'm starting off as the one being vulnerable here to invite the fellow panelists to be equally vulnerable but that's a design decision that was made in the process uh for the community to say like going fast is some and and having that failure State be one where the Ledger is secured even if it's publicly uh very uh unfortunate let's call it that uh is a design decision that's been made by the folks building the Solana Network every single network has different design choices and decisions made so I want to kind of talk about some of those uh that maybe didn't go so well or maybe some of the trade-offs that are built into how you're thinking about building and scaling software because today as it exists there's no piece of decentralized software that can support a hundred percent of the volume of all the world's transactions as much as someone might want to tell you that at best we're looking at theoretical numbers of a million transactions per a second and that is not a number that is big enough for all of the world's information so no matter what we're talking about in scale there's phases of scale and it might take 10 years to reach true global scale for any possible Solution on stage not on stage or one that comes in the future that's kind of where I want to start things off today so uh let's kind of start at the beginning there how are you guys thinking about scale hey everybody um I didn't even listen um we're the team we're working at Facebook for the last three well three four years building the Libre blockchain obviously Libra isn't here with us today and rest in peace rest in peace Libra but we learn a lot of great things through that experience and I think one thing we we actually did once we left Facebook is tore up the work we've done for the last three four years and did a new design entirely because we had learned a lot through the process of building Libra on how to actually build a system that would tailor to the billions of people of the world um we took a very um you know complex approach to solving scalability namely unlike other protocols I have a single consensus algorithm we actually have two right we have one for single owner objects whereas when I transfer you water and you transfer someone else something else those are two different transactions we can parallelize those add more CPUs you go faster and then we have a different consensus algorithm for shared state so whenever you're trading on a decks there's a different consensus algorithm for doing that that's actually very complicated so we're building two blockchains at the same time and we're welding them together which is not the most optimal thing you want to do but yeah let's build it was the right idea at a time right so let's let's I mean there's two trade-offs that you just brought up there the first is to say the code base that I worked on for three or four years we're going to throw this away we're going to take learnings and build something new the second one is we're going to build a complicated system correct and the more complicated a system gets the more likely there is a problem that can't be found in testing just has to be found live like walk me through a little bit of how you and the other co-founders thought about that process when you were designing sui I mean luckily we're not live yet we're still we're still building theoretically we're in devnet a Tesla in a couple of weeks um so the way we're thinking about it is really slow and steady but you know we're willing to make take some risks along the way and add core functionality as we progress right like you can't build it and uh expect it to be 100 perfect on day one but what you can do is make sure you have the mass majority of functionality available for Builders the biggest thing we did is really made uh object-oriented language for small contracts so if you are a programmer in C plus in C sharp Java you can come to sui and build and move with an objective move very very quickly so we took the element of redesigning and a lot of core elements of move to give developers a very much more improved developer experience at the cost of launching way sooner I mean we could have gone to Market with Libra and be live by now right but uh we took a very different approach in that perspective so I'm curious and we'll we'll get to everyone but you know as we're focusing on something like move right a programming language is an advantage until it's a disadvantage right like Cobalt was like the coolest thing for a while and now it you know and now you look back and that's why like the US uh unemployment system couldn't meet the demand it needed during covid because it was built in a language that had zero scale potential and had fallen out of favor like when you're looking at a language choice right uh walk us through a little bit of that process too look ultimately when you're talking about small contracts you're talking about programming scarcity at the heart of it right and programming languages were not designed to deal with courtesy natively so you have people building a lot of boilerplate code to deal with verification which is where you get a lot of the hacks and the bugs that we have today right so with move it was designed I mean when we wanted to go to Regulators we can't say trust us it works we have to build something that had an element of functional verifiability into the model so we have a language now that's functionally verifiable that actually has the element of verification directly so if I transfer you in an asset you don't have to do all the checks to make sure it's left the account and the balances are correct it's done by the runtime so that was a design decision because when you're programming scarcity you don't want assets to be destroyed or duplicated in any way and that's what Pro a lot of small contract platforms Force the user or developer to have to build that in and we didn't want to enable those kind of mistakes yeah it's super interesting because in some ways it makes development easier but then you're also choosing a lot of guard rails that that you know you'll see like any time you build in a more abstracted system with better protections you also in some ways limit what can be built in it which is an interesting decision right so uh so Stacy when you're like we were talking before around some of the verification systems that elgrand uses and its ability to scale because of that but that the transaction finality time is maybe a little slower than you might see from some of the other systems talk a little bit more about some of those decisions and how you've approached scale yes well when I built the algorithm blockchain I said touring Award winner in computer science and a 10-year professor at MIT I uh no you know one thing I will say about Libra though first is I think the fact that Libra could scale is actually what brought down its demise you know from a political and a regulatory component the idea that it could end up being a regulation maker instead of a regulation Taker and the it was powerful enough and scary enough to kind of maybe sow the seeds that it's undoing I don't know but I think that's a reasonable a reasonable Theory uh so Sylvia McCauley is a uh the founder of Al Grant and he um was in TR you know he has he had kind of invented or co-invented a number of things that are very important for the crypto ecosystem more broadly so those are zero knowledge proofs and verifiable random functions so I think you know he was watching this but he never attached the idea of money to these things that was kind of not not how he was thinking about it he was thinking about it as a cryptographer and vitalik buterin you know famously uh posited the trilemma that you can't have scale and security and decentralization at the same time and I think he said to himself you know I think we probably could and as you guys all know everything all the juice in a blockchain is in its consensus mechanism so he developed a pure proof-of-stake mechanism and just at a very high level it kind of works like this um and and and uh final settlement finality without forking it's impossible to Fork it's not just that it hasn't happened it's impossible does take place now in 3.9 seconds Austin so we have we have uh just released the new version that goes from 4.5 to 3.9 without without the possibility of forking I think that's that's pretty fast particularly for sort of high high value transactions um and and consensus takes place in three rounds over the course of these 4.5 seconds and the number of Algos that you have improves your chances of appending the next block but does not guarantee it so that's where the Rand tenderness comes in built on these verifiable random functions and so it's random and also deterministic so the reason it's secure is because the vector of attack is not known beforehand you don't even know yourself if you're going to get picked the more hungry you have the the the um the greater the likelihood that you'll be able to propose the next block and so you you this happens over three rounds the first round you propose the block the second round is a soft vote lowest hash function will end up getting picked it takes some time though and there's kind of a a natural maybe hard hard wall there because you've got to get to all the relay nodes and they've got to be able to compare all of the different proposals and go and get and select the ones hash function that that will take some time because you don't want you know a lower one to come in after you've right and then the third round is the um is where you check for like is there a double spending you kind of check the Integrity of the block and then it repeats every 4.

5 seconds um yeah it's a it's interesting because there are models on several chains where you have sort of optimistic confirmations then you move forwards and you and on algorithm there seems to be three layers of that which is like moving confidence intervals up at each stage if I understand that correctly yeah the third looks at the the transaction and make sure the transactions are okay and the first two kind of propagate and then verify the block yeah yeah um but you know if I could you know you you you did ask something about kind of language trade-offs and I think that they made uh and you know of course I don't speak for them and I wasn't there exactly but I think the the machine language of algorand is called teal and I think that Sylvia went in the early days and the engineers decided that you know the the real fork in the road really honestly if you want to build something quickly and deploy quickly is are you going to use solidity or not you know and so I think they decided that they were going to use a language that was um harder to learn and less tolerant of mistakes you know it's the kind of language that you fly airplanes in not the kind of language that you would you know program Facebook in right and as a result of that it can scale to whatever whatever you're sick I'm not throwing shade at any ethereum but you know sometimes your success can a little bit be your demise right as you and so so this is a little bit harder to learn in the beginning and um and especially in the beginning now I think they've solved a lot of those problems but that was a explicit trade-off that they made that we're not going to be able to just import thousands of solidity developers we're going to we're going to make you learn something else and that language will be able to grow with you and it will be able to you'll be able to scale uh to what you want yeah uh so Eli I want to talk about one of the most interesting trade-off decisions that someone can make which is relying on someone else's base layer yes yes yeah so uh talk talk to us a little bit about that process of deciding I mean the idea of Roll-Ups and layer 2 systems is one that's been floating around for a while there's a lot of systems that have been built but uh it's sort of that that old adage if you don't want to build your business on someone else's business right and that's like a very web one web two way of thinking about it I don't think that applies to web3 but it means that you know certain things like your timelines are not necessarily your own like would love to kind of talk a little bit about that yeah so um you know we founded Stark where four and a half years ago it was right in the craze of the Ico season everyone was saying to us you know and the investors and everyone saying hey guys you have to uh to they didn't call it layer one back in the day you have to do an Ico you can raise a gazillion dollars it's the obvious thing was the Happy Days EOS was launching you know file coin um and we said there's this cryptographic technology that we know very well and it makes a lot of sense and the fact that we are bringing this technology to Fresh doesn't mean that you should have a new coin for it by the way I'm gonna you know those who follow us know that by now we actually are launching are launching a token but I can explain why it makes sense now but back in the day it didn't make sense we said we have this technology that is very um you know white label in the sense that it can go anywhere and scale any blockchain exponentially by the way it can also go outside of blockchain and help scale exponentially this technology just delivers Integrity in a novel way and in a much better way and as Stacy said indeed it is based on the foundational work of uh Professor Sylvia mikali who's uh uh you know founder of algorand um and what we did was you know improve a lot the efficiency of these things which were considered impractical impractical initially so we have this core technology that does something really well and can amplify exponentially the scale of any system on which you have trust so let's let's dig into that a little bit though around like that's a big claim yes right no doubt and and with every big claim comes decisions that have been made that say we're going to be really good at this piece and we're going to be less good at this piece but what does that look like for starkware so for starkware we're really good at Future proof scaling through uh Starks which is also the future-proof way to do uh validity proofs yes so this is something that is post Quantum secure as the fastest you know proving time can scale to any scale without any need for trusted setups or things like that so it's going to stay around for a while so this is the thing we want to get right and furthermore we want to get it right and deliver the utmost scale in the hands of developers in the best way which is also why we ended up inventing a new programming language called Cairo which is another decision that we made all of it is to serve this purpose of giving developers the most skill in your hands in the best possible way so one thing that was very easy for us to say we don't need to go there at this point in time is to say reaching you know doing things like consensus in the base layer others have done it very well we basically said and we're still saying this is a technology that any blockchain as layer one and later on you know the conventional world as well that needs scale to go beyond its perimeter of trust is going to use it and okay Bitcoin was the obvious place that you would want to deploy but on bitcoin you can't deploy because it's not curing complete so the second obvious place to go on is ethereum which is why we went there it needed the scale by the way when we started our uh our you know our our path we set everyone's scale is going to be a problem and people said no it's not a problem and we were still working on scalable Technologies back then in 2018 lo and behold it did become a problem now everyone's talking about it luckily we started you know back then so this technology Will Go On Any infrastructure that needs scale and wants to have integrity at scale beyond the perimeters of its place so yeah sure but in that model right there's a whole bunch of different systems involved in any sort of proof right there's there's off-chain technology involved in actually Computing that and bringing that back on chain there are points of censorship around all of these types of Technologies right famously if you're running a single sequencer um not that people aren't necessarily but like in a ZK roll-up system if you're running a single sequencer that is a choke point right both of throughput and of centralization potentially right there's a lot of these types of things where most solutions that revolve on Stark's brake composability when you move between layers right those are sort of like uh the the world that that scaling solution is built in has a thesis behind it that a bunch of transactions are going to be of this type or maybe not of this type right so for us it was first utmost scale with a future proof and very scalable technology you write that decentralization comes later it is something that within the next year will be solved to a very very satisfactory way on both the sequencers and the provers will be decentralized and open and it's not going to be single point and you're right that these are things that come second in in our you know prioritization sure um that's what we're here to talk about yeah so first we want functionality scale of course security comes first and decentralization is going to come next don't let him push you around though Ellie you stick up for your priorities what don't you don't let them push you around you stick up for your prayer I think you know the developers uh of Stark net are very happy with these things and they're you know they're they accept this and they understand the reason we went there and uh so yeah yeah so I want to talk about EOS Network as well because so um back when I was working at bison Trails one of the networks that we were working on archival support for was was eos because that was something there was some some demand for from networks there and I believe at the time this was like mid-2020 the volume of data generated by the network meant that ledger and Trace data was over 60 terabytes that had to be indexed and maintained it's crazy about that because of the volume of data moving through that there's obviously a scale decision made when you're talking about a system that both can pump that much data through it but at the same time requires that much data to run talk I would love to dive in on some of that like decision making there yeah so what you're talking about that particular time uh the EOS network was roughly doing 125 million transactions per day yeah to put that in perspective in every single day we were doing EOS was doing more than all other blockchains combined and if you looked at Bitcoin and ethereum it was doing more in one single day the midcorn in ethereum for the entire year sure so I mean that is just for some numbers generally ethereum somewhere around 14 transactions per day on the or per second on the base layer Bitcoins around seven and so it was it's an immense amount of data to be able to process right and that's one thing that EOS does extremely well is that scale but that comes at a cost so during that period of time ended to keep it kind of on on point the idea was that the ones that were actually providing that service their cost was increasing significantly and if you're talking about the ones that need to because obviously we're in blockchain we want to have that immutability we want to keep that that record right so you want to have history nodes in our case those history nodes were bearing the brunt of that cost the amount of uh the amount of data that was being captured daily and that needed to be stored daily during that period of time which roughly uh you know lasted for about three months or so of 120 125 million transactions daily non-stop in order to be able to store that data there was no incentivization model for those history nodes to be able to provide that so what we saw as one of the downsides is that a lot of those that were providing that's that data up until there or without storing that data up until there had to stop they they and so the amount of nodes that we're storing all of the you know history nodes essentially went down significantly and for a period of time we only had maybe five or six actual full history no providers that were doing so as a public service and so we needed to to to to build around that and so we re-engineered and we re-architectured how that data was being processed what was being stored how it was being stored so we're really pushing the limits at that point not even of what blockchain could handle but how uh it typically even machine and uh and data Enterprise centers were able to handle in the blockchain space and so is quite is quite tricky so it was one of that double-edged sword whereby do you allow all of those transactions and and in the community at that time was starting to have very real conversations about do you uh you know what do you store do you essentially end up storing everything because there's a cost you end up not storing everything but if you go the route of not storing everything then do you lose some of that immutability do you lose and ultimately what that ended up being for us anyways it was is it's called CPU mining essentially yeah um that ended up being kind of the base layer foundation for what we see now is Gamefly a lot of the games now that are that are trending on dap radar in the top 10 are CPU Mining and dpos chains and so we still have uh a few of of the the chains that run on the software that we manage and that we maintain that we develop are still processing 25 30 million transactions per day but we two years ago re-architectured everything in order to be able to handle that but then that came with some design decisions you know some some choices as you said yeah it's interesting I mean like so one of the design decisions that for example Solana makes very differently is a weak subjectivity chain the accounts database is updated on a per block but well as an as needed basis per block so it actually the nodes don't have to carry the full history of The Ledger with them right that that's a that's another great example of like that's a design trade-off that was made on the sauna Network to support it you're not having to have a 30 60 90 terabyte SSD bolted onto the thing well another one of those design decision as well is Ram so what we're facing in EOS is actually Ram limitations that that are not even theoretical they're at the point where Intel and AMD don't make architecture that can handle the amount of ram that we need in the hardware that we that we run the chains on in order to be able to support that large amount of account creation essentially so brand limitations right now are one of the challenges that we're facing because the amount of again going back to game five which uh Antelope the the EOS IO the underlying software was rebranded to Antelope uh about a month and a half ago that underlying software is run by multiple chains that are that are running a lot of GameFly and what we saw in the last cycle is that you have tremendous amount of users coming in so we're talking about tens and and and tens of millions of accounts being created in very short period of time all that being stored in Ram in order to be able to access in a very Rapid Way and we're inhibiting the bounds of what current computational architecture can provide us and then we have a trade-off so do we keep using latest generation Hardware more on the on the desktop level type of com Computing for the BP nodes or do we go Enterprise grade if you go Enterprise grade you got a lower clock core speed sure you've got multi-threading which effectively everything is pretty much single threaded anyways and so you're not really using those cores so that's the trade-off there but you can have more RAM or do you go on the fast core clock speeds you still are able to meet that that high throughput but now you're maybe pushing the limits of how many accounts so you can actually create and so that's what we're trying to solve for now uh horizontal scaling in that sense you know I think this has been cast also uh to date on this panel in terms of kind of technical decisions and Technical trade-offs but there's also business trade-offs that you make all the time and that drive the technical trade-offs so for example we just released an upgrade and now we do six thousand transactions per second right but the head of product at the algorand technology company says you know they have a road map that they theoretically know how to get to to 10 000 transactions per second and then to 40 000 transactions per second but they turn to the foundation and say okay well where's the throughput though right like I mean you you you get you you you get to the point where we need to react to what you're kind of you know what kind of activity you're driving on chain and I think you have the uh you know a similar kind of situation the you do with Aptos and you I I hesitate to say this but our two chains maybe do which is that you guys are um and correct me if I'm wrong of course but you're you're much more TR you you put things out there that might not be fully baked and the community loves it and you're super transparent about it hey we're trying this it might not be you know it's in GitHub like what do you guys think and we are um you know we kind of make sure it's like right before we you know we and I don't know you know what is and then it's kind of like you versus Aptos as well right you're a little bit sweet right yeah but versus like they're kind of like out there and you're you're making sure it's right maybe and you know who knows what yeah no it's a trade-off I mean it's a really interesting point because like I think one of the things that maybe a lot of people watching don't know is that the the process of a web 2 company choosing to build on a blockchain is not a uh unmediated process I think I would say there's often um a lot of you know meetings involved in someone saying like you know we can just hypothetical web 2 companies saying we want to build a rewards nft system right for for what we're building there's going to be a lot of meetings with lots of different potential chains and providers and something like that and trade-offs that make a network attractive for developers will often make it not attractive for those web 2 companies because they look at something and they say well there's been a there's been periods of downtime for this or an outage right and they can say like well for our organization the pr hit is not worth even if we think that the technology platform might be better you know because we exist in a web 2 world web 2 users there's a PR trade-off there so you're exactly right that like the process that goes into deciding how scale works is often as much human as it is technical yeah I mean admittedly for us right like you know we're blessed from the position we're not first right it's great to not be alive everyone's been doing we we've had a great experience with DM and for us in general we designed a system that is multi-threaded from day one our system is multi-threaded it takes advantage of scale you add more machines it's faster right like the idea that you can have a cap on throughput and today your fee is a dollar and next week is five you can't build a sustainable business model there today you can't tell me I play a game for Ascent and I can't play it unless the fees are really low I think that's another element of cloud that is great that we've adopted with our delegated proof of stake system totally but at the same time when you're running two different consensus models you've doubled your failure possibility right and that's so that's that's kind of one of these great examples well you also have greater you know for us right like you have one that's working the other you have you have more redundancy right like yeah you know it's a it's a the system design we've taken that we think actually benefits Us in the longer term sorry well I was just going to say what's interesting about this is that we're talking about hitting the limits of what's possible right so we're all taking different approach in order to be able to scale one thing that I think is really important to remember is we're pioneering a lot of things that nobody else has done before so whether it be being comfortable with actually having downtime but hitting that that theoretical limit of what you can do and as you say it's that trade-off of being comfortable with that or taking a different approach of maybe uh taking a little bit of slower approach of making sure that everything is stable again it's that trade-off but anything that we're doing essentially is it really at the Forefront of what's possible out there and I think that that's why I'm here that's what's exciting to me is that that really this is such a nascent feel anyways it doesn't ultimately matter which direction we're going it's going to benefit the entire space because looking back five years from now looking back a lot of what we learned as individual projects will now be rolled up into perhaps new projects or now it'll be stronger where we are today is nowhere near where we're going to be that's yeah you know that's really interesting about it I would say the voice I wish we had on stage with us is Cosmos because cosmos's approach to scaling is is fascinating and it's been very ahead of a lot of like so the cosmos approach to scaling I think is particularly interesting is that you have many fractured States in application specific side chains and networks of networks and you have this theoretical inter no well practical interoperability using IBC and these connectors but what we've seen is that very few people take use of those connectors we've seen this too with the with the L2 and scaling solutions for ethereum with optimism and arbitrum they don't have many users even though they're able to offer things like much lower fees and so as we kind of get into the end of this and talk a little bit more about that decentralized economy portion of it uh are users actually ready for I don't want to call it decentralization but fracturization I think they are so on our front so EOS and I guess the underlying I guess Antelope ecosystem uh it was very much decentralized and so you have multiple blockchains that were running the same software stack but the very much were competitors and we're not talking to each other um in the last eight months or so when we created the foundation one of the big things that we wanted to do was to create those Partnerships with those other ecosystems and so what we saw happen is that these you know right now we have four Partners in there uh wax Telos ux and EOS that have come together started deploying funding towards IBC which we're currently running between chains so we all had our own separate communities our own applications our own ecosystems we're taking the opposite approach where now we're seeing we're creating those that encrypted connectivity but in order to scale but are you seeing like completely alright like the questions are you seeing people use them yes because right now that was that was one of the issues right they weren't able to scale further than that and that is the method that we're using to actually scale whereas instead of creating it at the onset not having a user base and and potentially kind of growing too fast in a way we're we're having to do that by uh not necessarily by choice in order to scale it's a very different approach but if you found with starkware because you guys have been approaching this problem for a while and and the user side of things is a very interesting problem to solve yeah so um the way we went about it with Stark X is offer this as you know going back to what we're good at and what we're so so we're not about hype we're about delivering scale to ones who need it so luckily or sorry not luckily we're very fortunate and very proud to have partner with amazing um b2c teams for instance you know so rare they have a user base of I think upwards of two million users that are basically using nfts these users don't even know that necessarily these are nfts or are on ethereum on a layer two on Star kicks but they are again it's about you know delivering scale not about necessarily you know the hype around it immutable x with its multiple of amazing teams building on it has your user base of you know active users of hundreds of thousands dydx uh you know volumes right now already nearing one trillion dollars of volume being traded um over over overall and uh you know TPS there have been weeks where the TPS on Stark net sorry on Stark X has surpassed that of ethereum and on most weeks we surpass uh Bitcoin and probably I'm guessing you know 10x all the other l2s combined so I think you know crypto Twitter doesn't necessarily know these facts so much because as I said we're not but they're still really small numbers right at the end of the day no they're huge numbers 2 million is very small I mean coming from a million active users no but but two million nfts um on a game those are not small numbers I mean no no I mean at best we're talking about 30 million users a day signing transactions across the entire the entire right now not even buy those numbers yeah I mean like you've dealt with some large numbers I think let's be real right there aren't enough users in web3 yeah like it's a small it's a small number of users the use cases are mostly gambling related or D5 related right in my opinion not a product it's a it's a building block or tool right I think unfortunately we've LED with a lot of that and it's great people have made many people have lost money but I think reality is the next cycle we need real applications we're real users with use cases that keeps them engaged and entice for a very long time I think there aren't enough users in web3 which is why we maybe say we don't need a skills regions now but when you start talking about gaming when you have 100 million people playing video games you don't need to transfer items in real time when you're moving assets from AWS to now a public Ledger you're going to need real scaling Solutions and especially if it's not focused around like literally milking the most amount of money out of users but giving them a new gaming experience that they never had before that's our goal and that's our mission I think it's going beyond the hype that we've had so far and bringing real users when we talk about 10 12 million people it's not a lot of people um yeah we're nowhere near um okay I I would like to stick up for us collectively though if I if I may go first of all every single one of us believes in a multi-chain world right I mean yeah you're the head of comms and Solana how many times have you said we are not an ethereum killer we're not trying to be in a theorem because it's the same thing with us right we all believe in a multi-channel that's the first thing second thing is traditional Finance you know I mean I was at JP Morgan in 2015 when we went from t plus three to t plus two and how many years did it take them to do that and we all gave ourselves a big pat on the back right yeah and then you know NASDAQ can do you know so many trades per second that we can't even imagine doing at Al Graham but you know like we don't close from Friday at 4 pm until Monday morning like we don't sit around waiting for the opening bell you know what I mean so you got to think about we are really to your point we are pushing the envelope of these things and um you know this is why I think we all believe in the web 3 proposition more broadly right and this is maybe how it scales right so you bring in a really interesting point in terms of of multi-chain what we're seeing in terms of user base the end user that are coming in and to your point we are nowhere near if you wanted to replicate so I don't think it was a jab at you but if we're talking about hundreds of millions of users we're nowhere near being able to do that none of us at all at any given time right now this this idea of multi-chain that's because inevitably if you're in a decentralized system you will not be as efficient as a centralized system you just cannot be that is that is one of the premises right but you somewhat can be if you end up being multi-chain if chains start interconnecting with one another you might not hit the same amount you might not be as efficient and that is the trade-off but you will bring about other value propositions that currently the current web 2 cannot provide and really that's I guess what we're all here about anyways I mean I just want to see um no no there you go I gotta say this look you know already three years ago we demonstrated in production we can process a TPS of 9000 for trades 18 000 for payments we mint regularly millions of nfts per block for immutable X the reason we don't have billions of users using Stark X systems is not because it doesn't scale is because the users aren't coming like the technology yes that was not a comment around technology that was a comment around just there being so few users so but okay agreed well our time is up but thank you all for sticking around on this uh late afternoon panel here and thank you all for joining thank you so much awesome thank you thanks awesome thank you