Bitcoin ETF & Institutional Flows: Insiders Insights on What Lies Ahead - TOKEN2049 Dubai 2024

excellent great G welcome welcome welcome to another token 249 in Dubai thank you very much Andrew work he's definitely the best MC in the market great you guys are very lucky to have him today uh guys we're gonna have a really fun time this morning really talk about what's happening on the ETF flows what's happening on the institutional side and my goal today is very very simple is to share with you the latest color and Market intelligence we have and then let you make your own decision on what impact could be not on your business but also on you personally as well uh as we look into the space and to do this we have the dream team today as was mentioned we have a joanni we have actually let me start from that side we have evgi guyo who's obviously the founder and Co wintermute one thing you may not know about evgi he's a Warhammer fan for all those of you in the in the space good to have you with us of course then we have Roger bone from Frankl Templeton who's the head of dital assets interesting fun fact about him he's getting married in couple weeks and he's here with us in Dubai and last but not least joanni vioo uh he's the executive director in equity and alternative products and uh one fun fact about him he used to be a division one fencer in the US and that's something I used to be fence as well back in my day so uh maybe as after after activity we should do a little about so guys we have a lot of topics to cover today especially on the ETF side on the institutional flow as well uh but really um let's start with the ETF side Roger I'm going to start with you Frankl Templeton was obviously very involved in the Bitcoin ETF approval uh in the US in the process there were you guys surprised but the flow that we have seen in the Bitcoin side on the ETF side and what is the type of investor you're seeing who's coming into these ETF products we were uh pleasantly surprised about the tremendous outcome of um the and success I mean look ETFs have been around for uh a couple decades now really and it was the biggest launch the most successful launch in ETF history and you just can't walk away from that massive event uh I think it's going to be Shifting the nature of all asset managers when they realize uh that there is demand not just institutional demand but um off of wealth platforms and investment advisors and individ ual quite frankly I think that's what we're seeing we're seeing a lot of different investors coming into the uh spot Bitcoin ETFs in the US it's interesting I think many people don't realize that it was the most successful ETF launch in history I mean and the fastest one even for one of the other ones it hit 101 billion dollars right in assets which is quite incredible uh that what was been the impact on the on the Futures Market I know at CME you guys have the Bitcoin Futures what impact have you seen the ETF launch had on the Futures Market no it it's been been a tremendous impact and and and I think you know Roger to to your point right I think that the marketplace anticipated that the spot ETF in the US would be successful but I don't think that the market anticipated that it would be as successful right but certainly what we've noticed um you know historically is that Futures do tend to move first you know the the first uh ETF was the S&P spider ETF which which launched you know in in uh 1997 uh I believe but that was 11 years after the first uh P Futures contracts launched you know we saw like gold uh Futures ETFs launch about 30 years after uh say Futures existed so Futures tend to move first and we certainly you know have been waiting for uh Bitcoin ETFs uh to to launch you know when we first uh introduced Bitcoin Futures in December 2017 we always had in the back of our minds that Futures would be that ETFs would be a natural progression it took a little bit longer than anticipated I the the first ETF was the Futures based or first Bitcoin ETF was the pro shares uh Futures based ETF in the fall of 2021 and that product um had at the time was the most successful right and and really was dwarfed um by the recent launch of the spot um Bitcoin ETFs in in in the US and what we've seen in terms of volume is that you know last year on bitcoin Futures we averaged about 1.6 billion uh per day um in March we averaged over $6 billion doll per day and a lot of that is is a a result of liquidity providers for example uh using our futures to hedge activity on on on the ETFs in fact six out of the 10 new ETFs are Benchmark to the CME and crypto facilities uh Bitcoin reference rate New York that's a reference rate that publishes at 4M uh New York time and it's it's it coincides then with the nav calculation for a lot of these ETFs so we're seeing um Market participants leverage some of our mechanisms such as btek basis traded Index close which allows Market participants that ability to trade the Futures Contract relative to that net asset value calculation print at at at at 4M New York in fact now in that 3 to 4m New York window we're averaging over 1 billion in that hour alone whereas last year as I mentioned we averaged 1.6 billion for the year so so we've really seen tremendous success and and you know I think that both products will grow uh together um I think March colle itively the ETFs traded over10 billion Futures traded over $130 billion so about 20% more but across other markets we tend to see that Futures trade more than the the ETFs but the Futures are the base for helping the ETFs grow but it's really a symbiotic relationship and as the ETFs grow so will the Futures and vice versa yeah but I mean I think it's normal that even in traditional markets right the volumes of ETFs but I mean and I want to get your view of this fgh but on this point you mentioned I mean it's a bit ironic that there's a you're talking about like in a 4M cut off in crypto of an asset that is 247 and of course we have the Perpetual swap Market in crypto which obviously is 247 yes there's every eight hour funding mechanism in place but when you look at the CME type of Futures five years down the line how do you see that comparing to the whole Perpetual swap crypto derivative Market which obviously also Trad a couple billion dollars a day no it's it's interesting and certainly you know the the Perpetual swaps you know were in innovation in in the industry I think you know bitmax was the first to to introduce uh such product but I think that you really have different use cases for the Perpetual swaps and and and Futures right um I'd say that the Perpetual swap product is is perhaps a little bit more retail Focus where we know we tend to see you know in our markets um it's a regulated market first of all um we do tend to see more institutional flow um in in in in our space but when you look at the at the Perpetual swaps right you know the as you mentioned enry there's there's the uh financing that's every eight hours right and that's you know creates uncertainties because if you consider uh proprietary firm that's providing liquidity they don't know what that fixing is going to be in the next eight hours right so so they're they're kind of like running their own models trying to guess what what that what that financing is when you consider a future contract there is a known end date so for uh anybody providing liquidity they know for example what the financing is to the end date of that particular Futures Contract right if you look at that implied financing like recently just after the launch of the the spot ETFs implied financing on some of the the perpetuals was uh annualized about 60% now if you think about anybody who's looking to get exposure through that product at 60% annualized financing that's really expensive so I think you know the use case for those products is is not uh say a hodler for example but I think it's really somebody who's looking to benefit perhaps from The Leverage and really looking to speculate and hoping to you know to to to uh hit do well say with with with that um leverage that's offered but what begin on on this point what's your view on it obviously uh you guys are OTC broker you're Market making you're providing liquidity on I presume crypto derivatives as well what's your view on the uh future of C Futures versus the whole Perpetual swap Market especially that we're having a lot of the firms are issuing these perss who probably going to be regulated over next couple months and years yeah look I mean there are pros and cons to both products and it's it's it's it's it's correct that uh yeah retail is much more inter perss and institutional clients do prefer Futures primarily because yeah there is a much greater predictability of funding due to effectively pay um but there are features of swap which swaps which are yeah quite nice like for they never expire and uh yeah in my previous life I was training a lot of Futures and C me and it's a it's a fun process to roll them over every three three months but it's yeah it's a it's a bit annoying and so so um yeah that's that's a feature of Perpetual swaps which is yeah Superior uh to a big degree but yeah the funding unpredictability yeah we'll see whether it will win hearts of institutional people in the end or not I'm I don't have a strong opinion on this how do you even see the crypto derivative space evolved do you think it's going to change radically over the next couple years I want to believe that like some features of the crypto Market will be adopted namely yeah 24/7 trading would be really nice to see because that's yeah for us Crypton native people it's it's very weird that exchanges close and open yeah um so I think that that would be a pretty important feature for a lot of people and yeah I I wonder when we will see it uh yeah yeah maybe it's a question more for yeah for you yeah like what's your view on that I mean U yeah so so look you know our products are available to trade Sunday evening 6 p.m. New York to to Friday evening 5:00 P p.

m New York um so effectively 23 hours a day we we have a one day uh a one hour break for maintenance between five and six every day um but but to you again's point right um crypto is a 247 market now we offer Futures we offer options on on Futures what we're noticing with our options products and we have uh daily weekly um options so what we're noticing is a lot of Market participants now trading our Monday uh expiring options contract that to sort of like hedge some of that weakend risk but I think longer term um it it would be who you know an exchange like CME to to consider um exploring um you know Opening Our Market 24/7 but but in our case you know we're not just a crypto exchange we we cover six other um major asset classes so when we look to make a move like that you know we have to consider uh the impacts across these other six asset classes but it is something that the extreme um is is exploring interesting I just want to ask maybe to you Roger because obviously when we look at the per market right the crypto derivative Market a big chunk of it is outside of the US right uh actually technically legally many of these us firms are not allowed to trade on this big crypto derivative platforms uh even in the ETF space right it was recently La this week Hong Kong approved not only the first Bitcoin spot ETF but also the first ethereum spot ETF uh I think we all agree that the volumes and the activity we're going to see there is is going to be fra of what happened in the US but from your perspective from a ETF perspective what do you think the impact of this could be of this Hong Kong approval especially when you consider the Asian activity in broader crypto derivative markets well I think again the success of the spot Bitcoin ETF in the US market is going to have a large number of providers open their eyes and be able to look at when I say providers you know ETF um issuers going to be opening their eyes and looking at these are ways now these are additional ways where some of the other asset classes that we've had you know underneath our um um umbrella and the PRI in the in the public markets this is a faster growing asset class right I mean if you're in the asset management business and you're earning advice fees uh for doing these things you're going to be naturally looking at where business is growing um and whether it's the the ETFs that are um launching in Hong Kong or any other um jurisdiction that we're likely to see across planet Earth it's a big Tipping Point for the industry in general uh the mainstream adoption of these really Network economies which is what Bitcoin represents and you know we're going to be talking about Bitcoin but you know next year this time you'll be talking about ethereum and you'll be talking about any other number of other projects that might be able to be delivered whether it's in single asset ETFs or in multi-coin and I think that's where we have at Franklin templon a future vision of how do we take this um environment where there's value and offer advice along tried andrue things such as portfolio diversification right um where is value inside of some of these Network economies that will acre to Holders of these assets can we get them in a type of form that delivers um into where the the assets are that the broker dealer accounts have trillions of dollars of Assets in them and so if we can get a mechanism toward that access then I think we're we're in a whole new ball game quite frankly but how are you seeing the re the reaction of this market right so let's say the 401K Market alone is a$6 trillion dollar uh industry right when you guys are pitching this product to financial advisors institutional investors what's their reaction so far because obviously we hear a lot that there's a cooling off period before invest advisors can deal in Institutional Investor clearly in the US market the 401K is different than a um somebody's either an institutions or individuals an account there's a lot more regulation because of the fiary responsibilities that a a company and the the um the operators of that 401k plan have I mean we have seen it's taken a long time for a lot of different Innovation to happen in the 401K Market specifically but you know again everything every Journey starts with one step and to the extent that we actually have uh these Network economies Bitcoin ethereum um others represented inside of a delivery mechanism that fits inside of that then I think it's just a matter of time where the education comes forward um and we see more and more adoption in a lot of different places one last point on this you know what was interesting I found in the Hong Kong approval is they were doing an in kind creation and Redemption mechanism and of course in the US it's a incash mechanism were you surprised that Hong Kong took a step forward to do it uh in kind and do you expect the future the if and when the ETF approval is uh is going to be happen is going to happening it's going to be cash or in kind I don't think it really surprised us particularly because as we've been in our journey in digital Assets Now for about six or seven years we came at it by looking at just how can we use blockchain technology and operating inside of what we do in the asset management business we found a use case in the transfer agency responsibilities we have recordkeeping I mean these blockchain networks are massive recordkeeping systems quite frankly and when we uncovered some of the efficiency gains of using these networked um distributed Ledger platforms versus our you know proprietary single database providers it really gave us comfort that a lot of change is going to be coming and we needed to keep doubling down and putting more resources and what we're finding is there's Regulators outside of the us that are far more friendly so it's not really surprising that Hong Kong um is going to be taking another step forward uh beyond what the US market has been doing yeah very interesting um if again I want to move it to you talk about like the market participants right let's talk about crypto for a second right now when we look at uh crypto markets there's really two three exchanges that are the vast majority of the volumes on a daily basis from a winter mut and from a personal perspective when you look at five years down the line do you believe we're going to be in the same kind of Market where there's one or two players that dominate will it be the same players or you think the landscape may change from a exchange centralized exchange perspective yeah I think like the default view is yeah we should see something like some kind of like repetition what we see in traditional Finance so there probably will be a few Regional big Regional players and maybe one or two Global players just like we see I don't know derivative space currently dominated by CME and urex for example globally um um so it would be kind of a default view to to expect to arrive here but I'm kind of hopeful that we'll see a bit more uh yeah a bit more fractured market so quite a quite a few more exchanges uh especially on defy side uh and a lot more competition that's kind of a hope for us as well and that's what that's what we are kind of building TOS as well I may add to that like if if you think of what's happening with the ETFs right and and and the success that we spoke about earlier but do you do you think like for example could there be more say people using the ETF for Access versus um folk looking to trade on on centralized exchanges right um so that that remains to be to be seen you know certainly I think we're in very early days right um you know already you know the the ETFs I think over like 30 30 billion or so easily right which is phenomenal but I think that we were only seeing like a fraction of the particip ANS in that market yet you know you don't have the wirehouses fully there yet you don't have all the registered um investment advisors there so you know the that particular Market could could be huge and it'll be interesting to see how that impacts uh some of the centralized exchanges going forward but but I would anticipate that there would be a perhaps some consolidation amongst the centralized exchanges right because you're right technically if you argue if I'm a US retail investor right now I ironically it may be cheaper for me to go buy an ETF then go open an account on a centralized exchange and trade along with counterparty risk and this and that and the Fiat on on and Al fraps I mean it's a bit it's it's very ironic on that P at from the US side right uh yeah EBC which is our Bitcoin offering is free yeah you go it's cheaper than free right so I mean even for you guys it must be kind of a loss leader I mean there's a cost as a business to come in and offer the service for some time it is to gather DayM there a race to AUM in a way yeah I mean Franklin Templeton has been in the asset management business and I think we're celebrating our 76th year you know we're in a business of trust uh we understand we understand that intimately and to build that trust once you gain that trust you uh you can keep it for a long period of time as long as you're doing right by customers and there's no doubt that where it currently stands in the retail Marketplace in the US you have the wirehouses the um the wealth management platforms are doing their due diligence to select you know who the limited number of providers might be they're allowing their their um platforms to be able for you to purchase it it's you know self-directed they're not offering any discretionary advice that's the Tipping Point when there's more realization that these networks are hugely powerful rails off of which the data economy is going to be uh moving going forward it's that big picture thematic story when when there's more understanding about that there will be much more adoption and we're likely to see you know probably a lot higher price action quite frankly and I think that it's also like um a function of of like like where you are right because because certainly the ETF you know you hear not your keys not your crypto right and and if you you have the ETF you're really getting cash um exposure to uh you know the price of Bitcoin but I do anticipate that there's other economies for example or other reasons why people may actually want to hold the coin right you can't trade the ETF on on weekends you know we spoke about weekend trading before right but you also can't take that ETF and transfer it to somebody else if if you want to you know exchange so so I think that there's there's there's there are different like users and and you know the user base maybe in developed countries may get their exposure through a cash-based product but I think of of of other like like countries where um there may be a better use case for something like like like Bitcoin but then you can argue the use case is different right for somebody who's in Turkey Nigeria Argentina they want to hedge against inflation or whatever even stable coins I would argue the purpose is different but there's a big chunk of the market who buying my my mom in Montreal Canada uh when she wants to buy Bitcoin because you know she wants to understand what I do in life I think that for her there's a perfect use case for ETF could be better than going on a centralized exchange understanding what a ethereum network is or Tron network is and so on and so forth right I mean yeah 100% uh and that market is quite quite big actually it brings a good point because um I'll get your point of view on the SGH what I find very interesting right now in markets in crypto is that there's a massive disconnect right I mean for example the rate of borrow uh if you say you want to trade on crypto exchanges uh you want to trade Perpetual swaps the borrow of usdt for example is extremely high and during last bull market last month I mean retail was paying over 50 100% in C some cases but if you go in the traditional space you can obviously the cost of borrowing dollars is significantly lower what do you think is going to have to have this like discrepancy change from a trading perspective what do you think is going to take for this this Arbitrage to disappear in a way I mean the main challenge is there are very few players who are present who are basically training on CME and on binance and in Defi and yeah the funding rates are pretty different on all three there are very few players like us is one of those few players who actually operates in everywhere and you ultimately need to make a choice where to deploy your capital and as we as crypto grow and as we see more players entering the space entering I know I know binance is closed for a lot of us prop training firms for example at the moment so it's already makes it a lot harder to close this funding Gap so we'll see like it's it will take a lot more Market participants entering to yeah put those rates to basically normalize those rates between different parts of the ecosystem and where are you seeing those Market participants come from actually when you look at the global landscape and you look at the next couple years how do you see this Market participate change especially where people are coming from it's a big function of to a big degree to a big degree it's a function of regulators as well uh so I think the market participants coming from jurisdictions with more liberal Regulators yeah it will be basically the first wave um once us Regulators become a bit more liberal in us and we'll see how I don't know elections this yearo for example I think that that should unlock a lot a lot more actually CU I would argue you know in a certain extent if tomorrow morning you're launching a brand new crypto company uh I mean no disrespect but I think you'd be a bit of an idiot to do this in the US right there's so many jurisdictions now where you have the regulatory Comfort Clarity and so on and so forth and the flexibility to trade the exchanges you want uh you know I just find it's very interesting this Dynamic we're seeing on that perspective for products like ETF it's a no-brainer for the CME of course it is what it is but on the trading side I I think there's a this massive disadvantage if you're you're you're set up in the US actually no it is yeah and we've seen a lot of competitors basically yeah rearranging their operations after the latest like binance action yeah action for example yeah so let me let let me talk about the future as well about defi right we talked about it in the second a couple minutes AG you talk about value creation about the new economy when you see the future the of defi let's say in five years we have this conference in 2029 here in Dubai how do you see the world of D5 would have evolved by then and how do you think it will have competed with the centralized exchange as well as traditional Market participants it's a function of two things so first whether Tech will work Tech Will scale effectively for those decentralized platforms like Dex will it scale for Dex yeah so I don't know you see dydx before for example now which is much more fully decentralized compared to anyone else yeah we but we'll we need to we need to battle test it we need to see how much throughput it can handle we need to see yeah if it can even do a fraction of what C can handle for example on the stupid side of things and the second factor is again regulation uh we see a lot of hostile regulations in general across the world like not all the countries but a lot of key countries are pretty hostile uh especially when it comes to self custody for example um and yeah if you cannot self custody it basically kills the whole point behind dexes like then yeah then we stick with binance and CME and coinbase yeah yeah it doesn't work it's that's why it's going to be interesting to see what happens in the US on that side how do you think defi could affect your businesses let's on the exchange side uh how are you guys looking at the potential risk not risk let's say competition of defi down the line yeah know uh great great question I think when you look at at just the crypto space right it's it's relatively new I mean bit bitcoin's only been around for for about 16 years or so right so so a lot of these um uh platforms there a lot of them right but but they're not time tested you know reliability um you know is is is is uh you know could still be an issue right trust maybe may be an issue and I think in in order to get um you know trafi institutions to to adapt uh some of these protocols some of those factors need to be there and I also think that that you need say you know the point that you made earlier that regulatory Clarity you know need need need needs to be there right um and and you know when you think of you know something like Bitcoin which is you know Global right and and and and and grew up um almost by Word of Mouth initially right um on the regulatory front I I I kind of feel that we need we also need to be Global right where where I think that you know The Regulators need to to get together globally so that you don't have say this regulatory Arbitrage right yeah I actually feel pretty good about I mean I know there's a lot of pessimism about regulators and um you know being u a little overbearing and the like but you know for sure I think the Focus From The Regulators at least our Communications with regulators and we've been shepher in several products uh through the US regulators and the Luxembourg Regulators what you find is that it the focus has been on the asset themselves what is bitcoin what are cryptocurrency what do they do but after some time and education and collaboration beginning beginning to understand what the networks are capable of doing and how they can be an improvement over the existing infrastructure I think you're going to see in the next couple of years a bigger realization about how um the uh The Regulators can begin to do their job easier because a lot of this activity is rioting on these public block chain utilities quite frankly I mean several years ago when um we started our having conversations with the SEC about our our project Benji our tokenized money fund um project which is available in the US and we hope soon uh globally uh the conversations that we were having with them was look if these transaction uh uh Records take place on these public blockchains with the right tool sets and we know the SEC has has the right surveillance tool sets corre with the right tool sets and people they can observe the movement of all these activities a lot easier and so it benefits them as a stakeholder there's more efficiencies for the shareholders of the product so they can earn more Capital return it's it's easier and cheaper for the for the asset manager to operate as well so I'm actually a lot more positive about that maybe because you know I'm now on my practically my 50th conversation with the SEC about projects and I see see the changing nature of their approach of let's understand what these Technologies deliver for us rather than focusing on the cryptocurrency itself and the volatility of it and I think that's interesting because when you talk let's say where we're in Dubai right now here the Vara the crypto regulator they regulate the activity they actually don't regulate the assets which I think is a smart way because then you're asset manager you're a broker dealer and that's how they look at it and by the way every license firm here there's a there's every week they do weekly reporting of your wallet addresses and of course The Regulators are running these onchain analytics on the back end so they have obviously very good visibility it's it's a bit uh it's way more secure I would argue from a risk management perspective than the old school uh filing schedules that you do on the SEC web and let's be clear The Regulators are in communication with each other yeah right it is a community of Securities and Exchange related Regulators across the planet and if one of them is getting giving blessing it helps that when you're having that conversation with another one yeah which is hopefully a good thing you know but also you know you mentioned about the for trat five firms in the institutional setup right I mean I have to say while I Was preparing for this panel I was pleasantly surprised to see that Franklin Templeton offers like these staking Services you guys are on various nodes how was it um to try to bring crypto within a 75-year-old uh Frankl temp organization where there's obviously a lot of legacy and frankly I'm sure Legacy mindset as well in some instances yeah well I think it helps if you have a partner right at at the top of the firm yeah so um Jenny Johnson the CEO of of uh Franklin Templeton um is a risk taker yeah um and she understands the nature she spent a lot of years running the operations of Franklin templon by and large and so she begin to understand the Technologies probably far more than some other industry leaders have been so that's that's key right there is that you have a lot of access right at the top with a with a belief system there and then I think the other component is you just have to have a um a spirit of R&D yeah right you have to try things in order to get outcomes by and large um not enough of that happens I think in the asset management business everybody looks at each other what did you do oh you raised money this way I could do that too but you have to be stepping forward um and it's an entirely new community and user base that Franklin Temple is excited to to uh to engage in we a couple of weeks ago when the spot Bitcoin ETFs came out we changed our corporate logo to include the uh laser eyes on Ben Franklin it was like five million views globally for doing that right that's saying that there's a different community of Engagement that recognizes that these blockchain environments are creating new types of assets I've always had the idea that if you can expand the opportunity set for your clients you might have an opportunity to raise that efficient Frontier rather than just only increasing the risk you might be able to access more outcomes and I think that's kind of the vision that we have yeah it's very interesting actually how the the top leadership matters I mean even some of your peers like look at Vanguard for example when the top is not B is not bought in uh forget about the rest I want to ask you one guys one quick question before we move to the fire round question is about Talent right so it's very good you guys doing the laser eyes and so on and so forth you know I'm I'm a university Professor I've been teaching crypto since 2015 right and every year many of my students want to join the crypto industry and they always ask me two questions like uh should I go work for a crypto firm should I work for a trafy firm who's getting into crypto how do you convince somebody actually let me start from your side like when you're getting Talent first of all where you getting talent and then I want to hear from your side guys on a trapi side how are you able to convince people to work for your organizations when they have the choice to go work for a crypto firm to do crypto start from you yeah I think the key thing we learned because we we operating for seven years now the key thing we learned is it's much more important to get people who are bought in into the mission of crypto bought in system and just here because they mer meren not just here because I know tourist because it's a bu market and I can make a lot of money and we've been traditionally growing slowly but steadily um we've been basically adding people every year since 2018 um even in the bare markets it's been quite quite a quite important for us to to get the right alignment to to right the right culture and it's it's really hard because we are competing with h hfts we are competing with finx we are competing with uh crypto protocols it's it's tough so what are you looking for when you're hiring somebody what is the one thing you're looking for uh basic culture alignment which in our case is yeah right work essic crazy working hours uh yeah like you need to be a bit crazy to work in crypto huh that's uh this 24/7 aspect is real I mean not not s like 24 but like yeah 7 days a week aspect is real so yeah what have you found works best to hire people to come well I I think it's I I think not enough of of of this is done giving permission to some of your own employees to explore I mean when you invest over decades and you create wisdom among your staff and you give them some latitude to begin to apply that wisdom somewhere new it's super engaging for them right they want to do what they want to be with you for the long term and you gain from all of that industry wisdom that's come across different cycles and seeing things giving people inside of your own organization more ability more permissions to do thing has been really important some of our very best most talented employees aren't the ones that we've had to go recruit from outside it's just taking people that have been long-standing great employees who see a vision for something new and are going to apply all their experience toward it and often there could be some the most Junior employees as well which is interesting on your side joanni what how are you guys getting able to hire people when technically somebody could go to crypto exchange and uh yeah so I mean CME is a 180 year old uh institution right um but we've been in innovating for those 18 180 years right when you look at the at at the crypto space itself I mean we we've been in the space now since 2015 initially launching uh reference rates on on bitcoin providing uh price transparency we now have uh reference rates in real indices covering over 20 different coins and tokens obviously we have uh Futures and options on Futures on both um bit Bitcoin and ether um but but like Roger mentioned you know in in terms of of of talent you know some of our talent we're a relatively U small organization I think we've got maybe 3,500 uh uh employees covering six different asset classes seven if you count crypto um and and we we to also um promote safe from within and and and and and train folk from within but I recently added somebody on my team and I could share with you that we had for that one position like almost immediately like over a thousand applications for that for that one R you go and and and and the you know those applications came not just they they they came from some trafi participants but we also saw uh folk that are that are working say in the crypto space and are looking say to explore you know opportunities within you know a Trad five firm that that's expanding say in in this area so it's a it's been super exciting but what I find about the space though is that it's just very collaborative right I I I find that we compete but we're also all interested and really growing the space which is the beauty of I think the crypto industry on that on that side so guys we have about two minutes left my bell is with me by best friend uh always with us s guys I'm gonna ask you quick questions and I need one or two Word answers right and the bell is here to keep us honest uh I'm going to start with you joanni and we're going to move on Roger and den of G you guys are ready unscripted here we go what is the one development in crypto you are the most excited for the next 5 years um I I I think uh tokenization the tokenization tokenization Roger yeah tokenization really rwa interesting what is the one the think development in crypto you're the most excited about uh dexas dexas dexas the central I'm starting from you R what is the one biggest risk we face as a crypto echosystem today regulation regulation regulation interesting Roger what what's the biggest risk we're facing we should all be worried in the room I think it's education interesting yeah um lack of Regulation regulation as well I'm starting from you on this side uh javanni if you could hold one cryptocurrency for the next 10 years you're not allowed to sell it what do you hold I like ether e ethereum is a great project get I'll go with the spicy one do do going here we go my God this is a tricky one I'm starting with youg uh if you could launch a new crypto business a new crypto startup and you can choose any crypto CEO entrepreneur as your co-founder who would you choose oh my god um anyco co-founder anyco entrepreneur in crypto space I'll go with uh yeah you guys are going to have him as a speaker as well I think a bit later today uh trist from backpack trist from backpack trist from backpack interesting yeah for was actually based here there you go Roger I'm not gonna I have too many friends in Industry to vote on that one same answer I I have to go with my current boss Tim mccort who who I think has been has been great for the for me very very diplomatically correct here this is a tricky one uh I'm starting from you ofgy you could have lunch with Gary gendler you're having lunch with Gary gendler what is the one thing you tell him uh yeah I'll just ask him when when they start in Spec Creations for Bitcoin atfs ridiculous Roger where you tell garyz for lunch no I'm not going that one either jooan I might have to say goodbye quick one two more I'm starting from you if you're not in the crypto industry what would you be doing oh boy um innovating Innovation uh coaching basketball coaching basketball here we go what after you got married uh gaming I guess gaming yeah here we go the uh the Warhammer fan comes out and guys the last question to finish off this panel the traditional question whoever goes on stage with me I'm starting from you ofgy if you could have lunch or dinner 1% Dead or Alive you could have lunch or dinner with one person Dead or Alive who would you have lunch or dinner with damn [Laughter] it really hard on can I go last and think of Roger uh Abraham Lincoln Abraham Lincoln here we go very patriotic for me I'd have to say my father your father my God what a great way to add this final guys thank you very much it was great seeing you a big head of for the panel thank you very much guys enjoy the rest of the day and thank you very much to our panel and hre are slated Andrea hold up just a second I'll let the rest of you go please uh Giovani thank you so much for joining us grat gr Roger thank you so much goody you and I have to admit ladies and gentlemen I am taking a moment to pause Before I Let ony arlenian Go not only so I can like flash this book around are you going to be available for signatures yeah I'm here I'm here early today today tomorrow great and I during the session I got a phone call from the Dubai regulator at the Dubai says hey don't forget to mention that hre's $150 million Market neutral crypto hedge fund has been approved by V they said don't forget to mention so hre I you know didn't want to miss that out because we are here in Dubai amazing thank you very much H thank you