From Startup to Scale: Security and Growth in Web3 - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

we're going to be talking about something really important it's not just security we're really talking about scale but what does scale even mean I think we first need to figure out kind of where we are to Define where we're going so Mike why don't you kind of give us an indication on the maturation gradient where are we with crypto today yeah I mean from a Time perspective of how much has been developed we're probably not nearly as far along as we think we are um the way that I try to Benchmark this is based on users and usage um and then compare sort of the improvements of infrastructure such that we're able to compete with the kind of offchain world so in terms of usage we're at about 100 million kind of monthly active uh across the biggest chains in terms of wallets um that puts us in like the late 90s for internet users um not crazy crazy amount of usage yet obviously this is going to be a subse segment of uh of the internet that was way more generalized um and then from a benchmarking perspective we've improved quite a bit so the initial phase of defi when things kind of kicked off um was on a eum blocks were at 12 seconds TPS was around 12 and we were first able to create these kind of cool but retro applications um that had all kinds of design trade-offs based on this limited performance um landscape well sure of course things couldn't be real time at the time and I want to get into some of those I'm going to call them performance metrics from today in a little bit but James you know your infrastructure gcp is running at the end of the day a lot of the nodes the validators it's core infrastructure even storage even Waxman of course uses Google we're very happy customers but are you tracking with that around a 100 million users worldwide of crypto does that sound about right it could sound about right I mean I'm always interested in like scratching the surface on on facts to sort of understand you know people who are using ethereum are probably using salana and people who are using salana might be using bass and so how many of them are truly unique and you know in in the grand picture as long as we're consistent with our measurement and we're seeing progress I think we can we can say that things are growing but whether we it scale I mean that's a relative term um you know when Google thinks about scale it's certainly in big user numbers how many users does Google have how many users I mean we we have a number of applications that have a billion plus users um you know obviously more than one but I think that doesn't have to be the today's standard for crypto we we can go on an incremental Journey as long as we're adding real value to both businesses and consumers and helping them scale to solve their business problems then I think we're heading in the right direction um I think there's a long road to go I mean we we're talking about platform economies at the end of the day and they tend to have a habit of kind of others falling away and they kind of end up with a few and to my surprise we're having proliferation of layer Ones Still certainly layer twos and um that suggests to me we're still early in the scaling Journey Sony of course is making its debut in the crypto world now so you're helping lead the initiative Sony of course has so many different types of I'm going to call them users um in so many different types of Industries Why enter the space now yeah I think uh technology is getting much and mat and mature right and the three years ago the one the cost of the transaction takes 50 bucks or 60 bucks then you know only limited people can use the web3 and the blockchain at the time right now thanks to multiple Layer Two or layer one and these kind of the technology you know scating Shing and so on uh right now the cost per transaction is even less than 1 cent but we we see thousands times Improvement here in terms of tech the cost but we don't see thousands times adoption in a market so it's because of the lack of the distribution Channel I think technology is almost ready but we don't have a much enough distribution channel the okay we're going to get into distribution in a minute but you say the technology is almost ready Mike do you agree it's made a it's made a lot of progress um we're not quite at par I think with in specifically in the finance use case of what you have off chain so current block time speeds are around 400 millisecond latencies for some of the fastest um all the way up to about two seconds on on some of the like the super chains um on trafi for retail apps you're looking at 500 milliseconds or less for small institutions about 300 milliseconds and less for high institution or large institutions you're 1 millisec or less 25 mics to I was going to say if you're an hft firm 25 mics in in Nazi na or NASDAQ Colo um so we're we're nowhere near that level of of of scale or speed or adoption um but it has improved dramatically right so it's improved dramatically from 2020 when we were at 12 second block times to where we are today but I think in order to really see that kind of Last Mile we need to strip out costs and so I know you mentioned how things have gotten much cheaper but we still have a long way to go because the retail trading apps are like zero Commissions in trafi so so far we've covered two major things in what is famously known as the blockchain trilemma we've talked about speed and that really means transaction speed um and we've talked about scale yeah we haven't really touched on security seems pretty important and again what we the people have been hearing for many years is that you can go and get speed then you can get scale but you can't get security that you're compromising somewhere James is that true do you think that we have sufficient security for I'm going to call them Enterprise grade but really it can mean maybe consumer grades even higher standard are we there yet and the and the important things is decentralization well typically right it also requires some sort of decentralization but specifically for security purposes that is to say that you're not going to go and get three people in the UK to be compelled to hand over the private ke yeah so I think um security is going to have different meanings across the stack you've got security from a consensus algorithm standpoint and the number of validators that have in your network and I think the evidence would suggest the pure security element of blockchains is pretty robust you look at Bitcoin it's doing all right um same for ethereum but if you look at hacks hacks are happening at the Smart contract levels hacks are still happening at the social engineering level um some of the best lessons of web 2 have not actually been transplanted into web 3 people are still storing two of their three private keys on the same VM and getting socially engineered and then hacked that's not a web 3 problem that's a human problem and one that's going to follow us around as long as we're still human and the AI isn't acting on all of our behalfs so I think when we think about security there's a lot that we can still learn um from the existing way that we have been building technology for a long time all the way through to the new approaches to security that are necessary to have consensus and then decentralization and actually I'd say we're doing a pretty good job on the ladder we haven't necessarily brought all the lessons from the former to Bear yet I think you're right that seems like the biggest issues we see when we hear about hacks nowadays they are usually socially engineered in the first place rug poles again this is not a crypto problem it seems like it's a Founder problem um Sony of course is entering this space on from a consumer's perspective are you expecting the eventual end users of your protocol to really understand understand how private Keys work how to understand how cold wallets work or are you trying to develop or encourage an easier pathway for consumers to use crypto I think in the long run people do not need to understand what wave3 is and there will be no border between web 2 or web 3 because Ordinary People does not use blockchain because it's web3 they use blockchain because it's efficient faster cheaper convenient right then I think we are missing a pretty good use ux and UI one of the core reason is pretty much fragmented um products there is no company I think coinbase is trying to do this but uh there is a few company who is trying to provide vertically Integrated Service from blockchain a middleware like RPC index and application so right now a lot of the people are making uh you know a lot of the people see the industry B horizonally e is better than S S is better than you know other blockchain people does not care well it's a very good point so let's talk about what infrastructure means because the layer ones so it seems are at least almost there but Mike what other infrastructure have we developed that you think is critical for at least Financial Services applications certainly oracles would be one of those things that are required for onchain trading to work properly yeah I think that I focus a lot on the the the features in the benchmarks because I think the sad reality of every new technological change is that the thing that the technology is famous for in our case for blockchains that would be Securities um that only really reaches scale adoption when every other feature is at parody with the predecessor so I'll give you an example when the internet came out online shopping in the early or mid 90s you basically were competing with a Sears catalog which was like the you know the Amazon of its day you turn a page 10 pictures loads in a second on a Dial 56k Dial has anyone ever thought about a magazine that way of the number of pictures that load per second something's wrong with you okay go on I like it I like it and so 56k modem you you load about 10 pictures at that time in about two minutes um and so it was very difficult to be able to convince your mom or grandma that there's all these benefits to having constant communication with the inventory that could be updated in real time with the fewer number of clicks not having to do a mail order the potential and savings on that workflow it just wasn't there cut to 10 years later with a Broadband modem and you get a 100x Improvement you can load 10 pictures in obviously like a second or so then we start to get into a a point where things can really scale and then beyond that when you can load you know videos on net a porter of people wearing the clothes that you could never have imagine imine doing with with a um catalog that really just kind of expands the space so I think that you have to get to that bare minimum where everything is else is even and then people are thinking about the trade-off as being of course I would take the application where I've got portability and security that's baked in and I don't want to have to get into a scenario where I have to go into a branch office or I get locked in or my account gets locked out or I can't move from one country to the next all those benefits that have been heralded by our industry but they're not something that everyone has to deal with every month it's when you do have to deal with it you say well why hasn't somebody fixed this of course you'll take it if it's at parody with everything else but if you have some janky ux or if the roundtrip times are just not fast enough and I know I'm harping on that it sounds like a very nuanced thing but when Amazon focuses on their workflow it's all about bringing down the latency because it's just so much smoother yeah there's no question I mean we've seen that shopping carts simply get abandoned if it's just a little bit too annoying to go through an e-commerce site right um certainly at Google you've been AB testing this for quite a long time but I actually do want to talk about some of this additional infrastructure and so to mention rpcs James I know we typically don't shill here but it was a pretty big announcement from Google yesterday why don't you tell us a little bit about kind of a new service that you're bringing out for the blockchain space well I think infr structure in the web fre space can benefit from more parties being involved and Google Cloud owns a lot of private dark fiber which when you add to the public internet or any network for that matter it's going to create more path through the network and more redundancy faster performance and so one of the announcements we we spoke about yesterday was just us contributing into the web free space by bringing to Market free blockchain RPC endpoints for developers um ethereum initially and then salana and polygon following later this year it's 100 um transactions per second for free a million a day and I think that's enough to serve a lot of like the the learning web 3 developer and for us it's about taking the millions of developers that are already on gcp Google cloud and helping them um start picking up web three technology because a lot of developers are not going to ever be Maxi one thing they're going to solve a particular problem with the right technology at the right time and so our job is to make all of that technology available for when they have the problem where it makes sense and and educate them um on what those problems might look like and so we're working really really hard in that regard and with our partners to make sure that we're really well positioned um to make sure our customers have the things they need well I'm glad that you're doing your best to go and encourage developers to enter this space and build things in crypto it seems to me like one of the fundamental problems is we've got these great l1s we've got these great l2s and we've got very few applications that people actually use seems like it's a problem soda your firm is well encouraging developers to build on your platform how are you doing this today and kind of what's the plan for encouraging actual usage on your new layer too yeah so we are creating sonum which is the blockchain between stel which is my company and Sony group and uh the right now I think a lot of the web3 entrepreneur started from solution cutting AG Tech and try to find the problem but there is no problem you know and for us you mean it's it's backwards right they're finding a reason to use TCH as opposed to the other way around right we should start strong problem and uh we have one of the largest distribution Channel and we have a bunch of the problem inside of society be Beyond web three like in a multiple industry right then I'm trying to speak with them and understand the problem then implement we three technology to solve these kind of the problems so uh one of the Str for us is the number of the distribution Channel and we're going to decide which Tech to make which solution to make and these kind of stuff backward so we are pretty much interested in account obstruction like a did and a tokenized IP and these kind of the things right now so those are fundamental again New pieces of infrastructure that you think are required for Consumer applications to work and to that end my understanding is you have an accelerator program that you've been promoting yeah yeah thank you very much uh we we just launched a brand a months ago and we launched a testnet two weeks ago and we announced sonum Spar which is the first incubation program and in 10 days we got Lely 800 application DS application which is great I think we're going to get thousand application so we would like to work with the partners to onboard developers and we would like to make the the platform which is the there is smooth and they the you know where to prepare the platform for developers right now developers is the most important people they certainly seem to be and I think that's going to keep being a key issue in this space Mike you know your key audience tends to be I'm going to call it on one side Financial Services institutions some native to crypto some maybe not and then eventually your end users are going to be sometimes just everyday Traders professional Traders and yes institutional Traders you come from traditional Finance where are we in terms of well making Enterprise or financial services grade Tech in crypto yeah so the pit Network actually solves this oral problem in a very novel way um so the using this network of kind of Institutions so basically if you think about financial Market data it's highly controlled in the traditional world bringing that on chain is going to be a difficult thing to do and so the network incentivizes institutions that are not typically in the financial Market Data Business to be able to participate and it's been very successful in attracting some of the biggest firms in the world to contribute their Market data to solve this Oracle problem every day with over 500 symbols updating at 400 millisecond block times and it's over 100 institutions from Banks um such as namora all the large trading firms exchanges such as sibo um and so from an Institutional appreciation perspective I think that we've gotten a Lot F farther than you probably would have thought um because getting everyone over that hurdle of this is something that you should do because solving that problem is a worthwhile one to do um and you're changing the way that market structure fundamentally works the market data industry is completely being transformed by this Innovation the usage of that across 80 different blockchains includes 400 applications that are generally building in some sort of a def way and the two biggest use cases are lending or some sort of a derivatives trading the derivatives trading has come the furthest along last year we were about as an as an industry all derivative trading on chain was around 1% of binance binance obviously being by far the largest in derivatives this year we're around 7 to 10% so it's been an incredibly big volume growth and the people who are trading derivatives tend not to NE neily be retail so we're seeing real institutional adoption or at least professional trading well derivatives also does include perpetuals which is more of a retail product so um I don't want to oversell the institutional side of it um but there are institutions that are certainly lagged in both but we start we I think we see a lot of the actual adoption coming from more of a retail um uh perspective and I think that's how we'll continue to see things grow it's infrastructure coming from traditional firms who are enabling things on blockchain and then people who either have more of a reason to move on because the tradeoffs are important enough for them either the security is very difficult to get access to Capital markets based on where they live so so I I do want to talk about that so without going into regulation only because there's not enough time for us to talk about it we've heard a lot about rwas a lot about rwas and I do want to talk about Stables it seems like it's a very very good use case of RW but are you in your specific position seeing that institutions want to tokenize Securities and novel Financial products bring them on Shain are you seeing this we are in certain jurisdictions so for example in Brazil there's a huge push to try and put everything into a more advanced way for settling so they've got something called draxx and um the Central Bank actually proposes and and and propon is a big proponent of um this migration and upgrading of of Technology um I think they'll be one of the leaders in in in the traditional banking world to at least experiment with this um and then the rest of the world has been mostly focused on getting a treasury product and seeing if there's other appetite to move into more credit products that kind of look like that because there's been a lot of appetite for the treasury product and obviously 50 basis points got cut last night um and it's not going to be as exciting as it was two days ago and so you know you can start moving up the yield curve and perhaps that's how we leg into rwa on chain CB cdcs they seem like another thing that can only hit the crypto industry when we've actually reached sufficient scale what do you think James you've been covering it following this space I should say for some time yeah I mean cbdc in of itself is an interesting valy proposition because if we have real Central Bank digital currency it creates a quandry for commercial bank money and the traditional role of a Commercial Bank by the way worth noting that in addition coming from Tech you also come and sure yeah I worked at city for a bit um so I I think maybe like linking these two points the traditional Finance space whether it's a government Brazil or or the UK or wherever I I think people want the operational efficiencies that crypto what web3 blockchain technology specifically and the programmability of blockchain can bring because the cost of doing crossb payments whether that's buying something that is a real world asset or just doing a payment um is really expensive like for what it should be and these costs are there because it's expensive for the incumbent financial institutions to actually do the job and if we want to actually reach a larger market and service saying the reason why these costs are or sorry it's so priced is because the cost for financial institutions which are included in the price yeah are rather High to begin with that's right that's right it's incredibly expensive to do reconciliation for payments and then just the process and paperwork to deal with Assets in general is not cheap and so I think there's a lot of Promise in the technology that we're all innovating around that can be directly applied today in traditional Finance where we could actually see real gains right now but you know there's inertia and um I would also go for so far as to say there's a little bit of confusion amongst certain organizations around well what is crypto and what is Z own knowledge and how does it apply to my business so coming back to education I think there's a lot that we can do to continue to bridge that Gap because if it's always a crypto versus the world kind of mentality people won't learn and it will be an in and- out group style mentality and that's not good and so to get that scale and that wider adoption it's actually like leaning in to help folks understand how the technology that we've been developing in this space for a while can actually solve that problem interesting so education is a major hurdle that we have it's not the tech it's the storytelling soda would you agree yeah I do agree you know I think uh legation is one with the important topic and uh generally speaking regulator does not understand Tech generally speaking so we have to make the story which is easier for Regulators to adapt web three they don't care about tech they need a story why why they should push this for example Japan right I'm from Japan and the Japanese government made web 3 as a national strategy this is my personal opinion they made made it because we lost in web 2 and what I'm saying is web3 is the next big opportunity and we lost in web 2 and web3 is coming what we should take it so this kind of the story ja seems pretty Progressive I should mention and of course the first most famous disaster in Bitcoin history happened in Japan but it seems like Japan's learned its lesson um and it seems like a lot of your Regulators are rather well-versed in crypto that's not true all over the world um it depends when it comes to regulator there are lot of positive people but there are a lot of the negative people so the technology does not solve the communication issue I mean when when it comes to regulator we need to be creative how to speak and who to speak and uh how to make a decision and so on James what in a very large organization like Google are people talking about crypto I'm asking just in the internal politics because if you can't solve within your own company how to communicate about this industry how are we supposed to go and talk to the general world yeah so I think within Google Google cloud in particular we're pretty crypto knowledgeable by now I mean goes without saying we're still a traditional technology organization but of all the technology organizations that are sort of in our sphere I would go so far as suggest we're the most web three native and knowledgeable I mean we're living running validators you know we run a dozen validators for a bunch of different blockchains we try and keep various blockchain RPC nodes and full nodes running when the networks are struggling we've we've lived that pain and we've been indexing blockchain data for a bunch of years now and So within our organization from you know marketing and PR and engineering and product and all the way up to our leadership there's good awareness around web 3 web 3 customers are an important customer base for Google Cloud digital natives are very important to us and so our commitment is to stay in the space and stay offering our services and you've been worth noting Google's been doing this with web 3 for some time this isn't brand new no no no we've been indexing blockchain data for like seven years um which is probably longer than a number of projects here um at the event so if I search ecdm address I can see the balance of these kind of things right again if I search ecdm address on Google yeah I can see the amount so you actually have on Google search some blockchain data surface right within the some block explorers essentially and then separate to that for developers on Google Cloud you can use big query to gain access to you know a dozen or no 20 or so blockchains and looking at the transaction data logs receipts I'd call this a mark of maturation right if you have Enterprises like Google doing this but of course it's a tech forward organization what's it take for Tech backwards companies to get on board Mike what do you think yeah um so Tech backwards is blite companies I yeah no it's it's the the kind of the slowest to move yeah um you know the I hate to draw on so many PowerAll lels from the internet but I I think that makes a lot of sense because you know the initial killer apps of the internet were communication um and I already talked a little bit about shopping um but the the kind of the slow movers there who assumed that this was just going to be an additional benefit for um some of their distribution or potentially a new channel um they they sort of lost and I think the same thing could happen within our industry so if I think about defi as kind of being a revolution of or or really a enablement of porting on financial technology to the internet um that's very clarifying in what can eventually be done that can't be done today so if you can basically divide defi into active trading then passive trading and you end up unifying things to the point where you've got all this parody but then you've got all the benefits of blockchains where there's global distribution friction list of of being able to send um anything of transaction being able to Port over your own user um name and not be trapped into certain accounts that enables the design space to totally change right there's certain elements of finance that I think are quite broken if you wanted to become an LP into seoa it's the hardest thing to do you have to have great connections and of course it's extremely attractive who wouldn't want to be in L who wouldn't want to be any of the traditional Asset Management LP space is highly guarded and it's full of tremendous amounts of friction that to me looks like something that's right for disruption it seems crazy that there are people that look like asset managers who are on Twitter that sort of monetized based on how many followers they have they have this trade follow not necessarily trade follow program but people are just following them and then giving them The credibility it would make a lot more sense for roaring Kitty to actually be an asset manager and have people be allocating money directly to him in some frictionless way and I think that's what people don't necessarily think about they think about yeah there's Asset Management it sort of works for the richest people if you can imagine a Sci-Fi World well this is totally frictionless that actually is a huge unlock and it looks very similar to the way that the New York Times was a big publisher before their first version of the of the New York Times online was a PDF of the website but they weren't necessarily the big winner of it it was how you can enable so many other people to actually be self-publishers so that's the thing that excites me the most transforming what's possible within the financial Market of course it's not fully broken because it works for a lot of people but the user generated internet if I'm going to paraphrase You is kind of that superpower unlock of at least web 2 maybe there's a version of that in web 3 and so I really want to get your take on this because I think Mike you make a fantastic Point we've been talking mostly in the last 15 or minutes about institutional adoption what about consumer adoption what is what what do you think if we don't have the applications today are going to be the types of things that are going to draw users to actually use blockchain technology on an everyday basis yeah it's a still challenging question but uh technology is getting mature and mature what we don't have today is the distribution channel for sure and uh personally I would like to make a in terms of the use case right beyond the payment I would like to focus on the entertainment entertainment yeah the reason why is a lot of the people using blockchain today because they want to make money financially speaking but a lot of the entertainment people they are very passionated about the you know idle group or you know uh musician artist and these kind of things very enthusiastic this enthusiasm Beyond technical borders technical how so wait so is it like is this a chicken in the egg problem that is to say is distribution going to solve this issue I mean are the applications good enough that if they're distributed people are going to use them uh I don't think so but uh this is the we are still in a web three market right we needed to go beyond web3 and I think entertainment is the one of the best industry to enter as a first step but we definitely need to improve the customer experience right because they don't understand the you know ECM address address they canot manage private key then how can we abstract The Experience like through account abstraction through maybe chain abstraction maybe did and these kind other things offer a quick like plus one on some of that I think how many even defi users and certain like centralized exchange users on blockchain are using it because there's an element of decentralization involved I would suggest there are lots of people especially in this conference that do care about decentralization but I would suggest there's more people that just like the fact that they can get access to an asset quickly and easily and the fact that there's how dare you say such a thing yeah right and so that's the Napster moment right people were downloading MP3s not because they were trying to break the law or anything it's because it was a great experience and so whilst there are elements of complexity involved it's that frictionless ability to just get going by yourself and not rely on anyone else and there's something there and so when we are talking about consumer adoption it has to be something that hides the technical complexity of the blockchain right we don't think about tcip I tcpip when we're browsing the internet it's completely hidden from us we just have a great experience and so the sooner we can get to a a point where the user doesn't need to know about that we're not selling the technology for the sake of Technology yeah yeah one things I would like to say is let's say chat GPT everybody is using right but GTP itself was invented in 2018 right but chat GPT was published in 2023 and that the the big things is for gpt3 yeah yeah GP chat GPT everybody can use chat GPT without understanding GTP technology itself so technology itself does not not make adaption we have to deliver technology with great UI ux customer with with you know maybe Google and these kind of the distribution Channel too Mike would you agree I mean let me say this I think we have some not semis Skeptics but people who are very pragmatic on stage here um but there's a lot of people in this audience who are true believers who think that maybe simple people need to know more about the Merit of decentralization where do you stand yeah I think that it depends on where you're based right so if you're in the developed World um you know you've got a pretty good access to Capital Market um if you're not moving around like you know your your average workflow doesn't get interrupted all that much um if you're living in a world where you don't have great access to Capital markets for sure there's a higher need and so you're willing to put up with a little bit more so um like if you think about like the development of of cell phones in the US you never needed them in the 90s because you had great pay phone lines everywhere but in in Scandinavia you couldn't pay put um phone lines across the country because it was just two mountains and population density is too low and so like Ericson and noia were the vanguards there and eventually it was better than all the payones or land lines that you had in the US and of course they took on the technology I think the same thing happens where it's where the need is the most that you end up seeing the biggest jump in terms of usage and then once people realize that it's actually better than what they're using even though what they were using was pretty good then we start to see so I think there are areas where the need is is is quite significant now well then let's talk about what those needs might be that is to say what use case that's not already let's call it made product Market fit do you are you bullish on personally what do you think might be a great use case for crypto because it seems like again we were talking about this backstage trading and payments are the two killer use cases that spark for crypto are the there more I think those are the biggest use cases and the first time that you're actually going to see some innovation of Finance on chain or on the Internet like the the the versions of banking apps that are on online today feel a lot like the early versions of publishing on the internet so I think that we're going to start to see some real breakthrough and that's what really excites me so I wouldn't think that we needed to look for a hundred different um other types of use cases I think there's a very good one obviously the Market's huge huge for it um and it's right for disruption James what do you think yeah I agree um I'm maybe even narrow that list of two down to one I I do love the innovation of defi but I get a little bit jaded when we're trading things that I don't believe have value and it's sort of like crypto for crypto it's like this it's like Echo chamber of we've built defi to trade defi tokens and it's just like round and round I'd love to see defi being applied to ro assets for example that would like take that further for me I think that would be a really nice addition but then crossb payments to make it cheaper in developing economies to be able to send money around and literally enable Commerce where it wasn't possible before because payments were too expensive you know if you can pay someone 9 cents regularly and and that means something in that that economy but but in the US it doesn't that get a huge unlock or from for micro payments I right or simply not viable through traditional rails yes and I'm very bullish on that and that's um you know I'm I'm an optimist skeptic in so much that I want to see more especially in those areas just described but I get a little bit kind of frustrated when I'm hearing things that I just don't see real like depth to the idea so I heard from you entertainment but if you had to kind of narrow it down what are you most excited about and you think could be a killer use case for crypto yeah obviously Finance is great but I would like to make a use case beyond the finance right mainly empowering the people especially creators I personally pretty much interested in a token IP registration platform so everybody can register the IP on chain and based on the usage based on the you know the loyality this will be distributed on chain so earnings go PR to people who are using making use of Ip or creating IP in the first place yeah to unleash Creator and creativity love that concept gentlemen thank you so much for having this conversation with me I feel confident that we are almost there when it comes to scaling crypto thanks again