Bitcoin's Next Chapter - TOKEN2049 Dubai 2025

Well, good afternoon everyone. Uh, it's great to see you all and hope you've had a great afternoon and we're almost coming to the end of token. It feels like it's just been so exciting and lively and uh I guess we don't want it to end but um I'm quite excited about this topic. So, just to open up, I'm Samantha. I'm the founder of Yap Global.

We run a PR agency and I used to be a journalist before and I've been telling the crypto and Bitcoin story for seven years now. One of my earliest clients was Bitmain. So I was talking about Bitcoin mining back in 2017. So I'm really excited to dig in with Manib and Orun here um about Bitcoin's next chapter. Um so just to set the scene here, let's talk about the state of of Bitcoin.

Um, Bitcoin up until now, well, I think in general is seen as a secure, simple uh asset. It's it's regarded as the digital gold, right? But um MBA and and Or here are are building things that um are taking Bitcoin beyond um it just being seen as um a a a simple asset. So, Manip, do you want to start us off? what what are you doing um in the space, your background, and yeah, where you see Bitcoin heading.

Yep. Um absolutely excited to be here. I'm I'm Manib. I'm the founder of STAX. Uh think of STAX as a Bitcoin layer 2 or L2.

And I would actually make the case that you know people are very familiar with uh L2s on Ethereum. That's their entire sort of like scalability road map. And I would argue that Bitcoin actually needs L2s more than Ethereum because Ethereum is fully programmable even on the L1. It's usable. People can can deploy capital.

They can they can do things with it. Whereas Bitcoin by design is extremely simple and it it's not supposed to change. You can't really experiment with with Bitcoin. You can't really introduce that many features. Um and all of that experimentation and new utility for BDC will happen on L2s.

And we we're already seeing that. I think this was u this was long-term time coming. Uh I think we expected it to happen a lot sooner. Uh but I think the industry is definitely coming around and realizing that Bitcoin is by far the largest asset class that the the thing that's going to stick around for decades. Uh and now the builders are coming and building these L2s including stacks and and others.

Orin do you want to share about what you're doing with Citria? Oraneir I'm the co-founder of Citrias and Citra is the bitcoin's first ecolop u so we have been building citra for around 2 years and like munip said bitcoin actually made this decision like long time ago to be stay as a secure and simple blockchain and I think during the block size wars like everyone was agreed that all the functionality and scalability needs to be pushed to the L2s which now we are actually getting the real results u so on ethereum um I generally agree the L1 is good enough to do most things but for Bitcoin the L1 is only good for payments. Uh obviously people do tokens and encryptions and other things but it's not as efficient as you can do on L2. Um so the L1 I also think should stay as simple layer where we basically build all the functionality on L2s and improve the uh custo experience improve the programmability so that we can offer better options to bitcoiners than custodians and simple L1. Mhm.

Um so Manib you touched on how you know the development of Bitcoin and you know the L2s on Bitcoin should have happened sooner but you know last year we saw the approval of Bitcoin ETFs and that's when we saw institutionals really paying attention to Bitcoin and and and then now money flowing in. Um, and so yeah, if you look at the numbers, it's just Bitcoin is still growing, progressing, and you're looking at the, you know, the price that's holding up despite the volatility in the market. Um, and so that's exciting because there are a lot of people coming into Bitcoin, holding Bitcoin. Um, and so yeah, do can you both speak to how the global perception of Bitcoin is shifting from just being a passive asset to one that um, yeah, could do more than that? U, I I actually think that most people right now think it's a passive asset, right?

Like you you you put things in the ETF. It's I don't think Bitcoin has any yield bearing ETFs whatsoever. uh even though uh people are trying to have yield bearing ETFs on the Ethereum side because Ethereum has a native yield uh and I think once that goes through the my my view is that uh there will be a lot of pressure on on Bitcoin products as well and that's something that we are seeing a very strong uh market demand for that people have started looking for BTC yield like like I think that's something we've seen this with stacks we've seen with Babylon uh and others like like with within in the last I would say 6 months or so uh like thousands and tens of thousands of BTC has moved into protocols earning yield and I think it's only going to grow with these these institutional products once they once they once they come online. Mhm. So Satoshi actually described Bitcoin as money not like any sort of value or like some asset that you hold and do nothing.

It actually needs to be used to be alive. The Bitcoin network depends on the transaction fees. The subsidies in the long term will go to zero. So people needs to pay transaction fees which means people needs to use Bitcoin in their daily life and ETF is probably not a good choice for it but it's still happening. I think that's just one side of the things but the other is basically the ethos of Bitcoin that you need to hold your keys and you need to just use Bitcoin and currently people just going to the other assets because they cannot do the money properties on Bitcoin.

dating it's just payments which is one part of the property and other stuff that for example borrowing against your assets or minting a stable coin that's backed by that assaet uh is just like separate things that's not think people think it's not possible on bitcoin so they started to buying ethereum and other assets to do the such things but now we see that actually this is changing and we are realizing okay with like varying different trust assumptions from solution like us from trust minimize to all the way to the custodian we can actually do such things uh better than we think 5 years ago. So I think the institutional demand is just one side of the things and the other side is definitely the people like us in this room is using Bitcoin in their daily life for variety of reasons and like variety of protocols. I really like that. Um just returning to the fundamentals of why Bitcoin was created. I mean for me um what fascinated me about Bitcoin was that it is a peer-to-peer payment system.

You're right. That's what Satoshi had, you know, wanted it to be and and and and planned for it to be. And I remember over the years, right, we've seen people to try to buy Bitcoin, buy their coffee with Bitcoin, buy things in Bitcoin. So, yeah, it's interesting to see what, you know, Citri is doing with making Bitcoin more scalable and easy and cheaper to use. But then it's also good to like, you know, add the be real right now.

as Monique mentioned actually it is still seen as a passive asset. So I feel like there's a lot of education that needs to happen re-education that needs to happen of about the real purpose of Bitcoin. So do you want to add to that um of kind of yeah where where where Bitcoin what do you want to say for example to the to the new entrance um who are coming into this space about Bitcoin? I think I think education is definitely part of it. But I feel like I'll give you an example like when you go to the the big Bitcoin conferences like Bitcoin Miami this year is going to be in Vegas and so on.

I think over there the ratio of engineers and developers who are trying to do anything with Bitcoin to just the non-technical people who are mostly there for Bitcoin as money or or as a store of value is completely out of whack, right? like very few engineers versus if you go to um you know East Denmark or you go to Solana Breakpoint uh the community is very different like it's very led by the the builders and and people so I think that's that's where that's that that's your first interaction with the technology it's it's like builder driven like they're building interesting things and and that's how the audience learns about Salana when people experience Salana they it's less about education is there's so much to do already on the chain uh and that's how people get get introduced to the technology. So I feel like that that's why in the STAX community we almost tried having a lot of grassroots movement in trying to change the culture around Bitcoin by having a very strong developer community. Uh and and and I think that's actually one of the biggest reasons why it took so long uh for for this building on Bitcoin movement to start. Even though it's such a obvious thing like there's $2 trillion of capital just sitting out there and and people can come and start building with it.

Uh but it it did take a very very long time. Right. You make a good point because I mean when I started you know doing PR for crypto projects I mean I said I worked with a Bitcoin miner but then I started working with Ethereum started you know going to conferences like you know eat them for ECC and it was more exciting because there was all these DeFi applications being built and then you were talking to developers on the ground there was a lot of hackathons but you're not seeing that in the Bitcoin ecosystem and it's interesting because Orcin you said you entered the industry through Ethereum so what do you have to say about that as well h how can we encourage age um and see a bit more the of the builder action happening on uh Bitcoin. Yeah, I think like the ordinal was the starting point for all this stuff I believe because it actually brought like a lot of attention from different communities all over the crypto back to Bitcoin and this means that like sorry about it a lot of developers now was building on Ethereum before and they realized like us okay now we can actually do some interesting stuff on Bitcoin which we think was never possible before and that was our entry point. we built on Ethereum.

We built privacy systems on Ethereum and now we actually realize that Bitcoin has ordinal people put some dummy images on there. But what if we can actually put some other data instead of image and build some useful systems and that's was we basically come up with this ZK rollup idea because the idea was basically instead of putting image we put ZK proofs into the Bitcoin transactions. So that led us basically create this ecosystem of applications Citra and then we started working on what if we make the application developers experience better which was launching our incubation program called Citri Origins that so far helped a lot of developers to get started their journey for building on Bitcoin. Every week I spoke with tens of developers and each one of them says okay I got into Ethereum because I wanted to build applications on Bitcoin but I failed and there's ton of example for that. The tether started on Bitcoin but become popular on Tron and Ethereum later because Bitcoin didn't have enough functionality to support all the stuff they do around their stable coin the same as the first prediction market Augur they first tried to build on Bitcoin but it wasn't possible so they built on Ethereum and there are many such cases for that and right now with all the origins program we we do and like the materials we produce for educating developers and help them on board to the ecosystem is definitely changing the culture of Bitcoin and I'm very h happy about Great.

So that's interesting. So now we're we're getting to like shifting and changing the culture of Bitcoin, welcoming more builders. Let's just dive deeper into each of your respective projects. So Manib, um could you tell us specifically, you know, what's happening with ST like DeFi on Bitcoin? Can you just tell us the activity that's happening on right now to to yeah, paint a picture of what could be possible?

Yeah, I can I can give you the perspective from from STAX. Uh so sta stacks mainet launch in early 2021. Uh so I think out of the the Bitcoin L2 is I think we're one of the sort of like the uh larger one that has been in production for a while. Um and we we've seen a lot of development right like it's very exciting. Uh people are building Bitcoin lending protocols.

So you can actually take your BDC uh and and I really encourage uh people to go and actually try it like you would you your perception for Bitcoin would just change because most people I started in BDC around like 2013 and so they keep their Bitcoin at least in my circles on like electrum and it's like a clunky old wallet like you know feels like like a decade ago and now you can take that BDC and and sort of like put deposit it into the L2 and start using modern web wallets like leather uh or x and and suddenly you almost feel like now bitcoin has arrived in web 3 right like because that's a that's a modern UX uh and the speeds are fast so bitcoin runs at like 10 to you know 40 uh minute block times but people are used to salana they're used to like having having really fast uh transactions but now you can have that with BDC with the L2 so stacks L2 would do a couple of second transaction confirmations um and and the UX feels great then you can deposit your Bitcoin into a a lending protocol like Zest uh or borrow other assets against it. And I think that that really feels like okay, wow, Bitcoin is now a modern asset, right? And I can do things on chain. Uh there are people who are there's one um app called Hermetica. They're building a bitcoinbacked stable coin, right?

We just heard a talk about stable coins and people are doing interesting things. But imagine if the underlying collateral is actually BDC, which is the hardest form of of of money out there, right? So that's a there's a lot of like interesting uh developer momentum happening on stacks and uh we we were super super excited about it. That's really interesting. thanks for for for um yeah giving us an overview of what you could really do with your Bitcoin because I think most people and including myself I've just seen Bitcoin as something that I've bought and then I've held um and not really done anything with it but just to yeah have a idea that yeah firstly even borrow even lend um and also like staking Bitcoin staking as well um or with Citria could you just give us an idea of what you're seeing on on on Bitcoin?

Yeah, for us I think like this why we started the incubation program was there are a lot of unique applications that built on Ethereum and with Citra it's fully compatible with Ethereum and all the smart contracts. So you can actually copy the same contract launch on Citra and instead of using it it will automatically start using BTC uh which is great to on board developers but one thing we realized is all the Ethereum applications and other ecosystems applications built for people who are already cryptonative. So if you're using MetaMask and like other wallets that this shows that you actually know how to use crypto right if you know how to connect your wallets and how to do swaps that's that sounds very simple but for most people most bitcoiners and people who we want to on board to bitcoin they don't know anything about these and just starting the same thing from um scratch for all of them is not as efficient as you seen so for the incubation program what we try to do is create unique experience towards bitcoiners and who people who will be on boarded to bitcoin for the first time. Among those applications, for example, there is one called Tanari which is building a pesky based wallet which means you can actually sign transactions using your face ID and fingerprint. So you don't even need to hold the seat phrase to self custo your funds which is obviously there are some projects I think doing this on Ethereum but most people don't use those projects because they're already on boarded to a tool but now we have a chance to actually get those people there and make their first experience much better than the existent ones so that we can actually have a sticky user base and people actually can like using this protocols instead of hating that UI stuck forever and like waiting for 10 minutes for it to do a transaction and such things.

So it's just like the the main thing for us create tailor experience for Bitcoiners and also the new buyers so that their first experience on Bitcoin is much much better than the other ecosystems. So they don't have any reason to go into other ecosystem. Great. Um, so we've talked a lot about h how we need to shift the culture um to see so both um Orcin and Miv just shown us just how much you can do with Bitcoin but the culture needs to to shift but do you see building more functionality on Bitcoin alien alienating the Bitcoin core community ethos? I I think it's a very very sort of interesting question.

Uh the way I think about this is bit Bitcoin is more destined to like um not change and the rate of change might actually slow down over over time as well. Uh like for example, especially if if the L2s really take off, right? Then what the Bitcoin chain really needs to do is have a very good trustless way of moving capital between L1 and L2, right? So there are very few things that you know uh might be needed and then Bitcoin uh like core can actually just sort of like freeze like in a way right like of course there will be software updates and you know patches here and there and and but that could be very interesting because if Bitcoin is worth like trillions and trillions of dollars you don't want the codebase to change that much right because that's that's that's the sort of like a value of Bitcoin and those are the sort of like tension points that you get to with some of the I would call them like the Bitcoin core community uh because they approach everything as like hey no no experimentation I'm like we we are agreeing with you that no experimentation on the L1 but let's let's support enough things so that you know people can experiment on the L2 uh so I think there's obviously sometime tension points but I actually think we have more in common than than um it might come across as interesting yeah I think when you went through that process with all the bitcoiners like couple years back from us but the same thing is happening now like the software discussion is a bit stalled at the moment and bitcoin is not upgrading for the last four years which is a bit uncommon I think it was generally three or four years to get each soft fork uh but right now there is still I think a momentum to just like support these experimental ideas a bit more open so that we can actually see the bitcoin's future because at the moment it's just captured by all the like institutions ETFs and custodians which is apparently not what wasn't the vision and preventing L2s also like or attacking them is also not solving any of the issues. So I think it's more now the especially Bitcoin Cornable developers are more open to hear ideas about these L2 systems like how we built bridges.

Our bridges some based on something called BitVM which is an recent invention and it actually allows us to have a distrust minimized ZK verification from on the Bitcoin L1 and there are some softworks who can actually uh improve this process and I see a lot of support to them namely OPCTV. I think Opket is a bit more now alienated. Uh but CTV is probably the next soft work for me. I see that consensus getting together and it's the main thing about CTV is obviously it helps Bitcoin L1 but it also helps a lot of Bitcoin L2 such as primitives like BitVM or the ARC network which is a new lightning like uh L2. For those that don't know, ho how do the Bitcoin core community or even Bitcoin developers like gather because you know many of you are saying the Bitcoin conference is mainly I guess um yeah leaders and um you don't see that many builders um and so yeah like where do they gather right now is just like online and or and what is being done to see more hackathons happening and builders gathering together like you see in Salana on Ethereum.

Yeah. So, I think I think a lot of that is online. There are some Bitcoin L1 focus events as well. There's um like B D++ like this some some of these events uh but it's a pretty small community right you go there like 30 40 people and uh and there's a big overlap between lightning developers. So the historic thing that happened there was a lot of the Bitcoin community got behind a single project lightning as the way that Bitcoin is going to scale, right?

And in hindsight like that's that's not how how you do things because you want to see tons of different experiments and then let the better experiments win in the market, right? So I think that decision of just fully getting behind just a single experiment um actually limited the the type of experimentation other L2s and and and so on. I think some of that is still there right like like but it's obviously changing now there are so many other projects so there was because of that historic fact uh there's a big overlap between lightning developers and the bitcoin cork community so wherever sort of like you know you go to a lightning uh developer meetup uh that you will see like more overlap over there you see yeah especially most developers and like bitcoiners are anonymous so you don't see them in real life right they're mostly online but also for creating applications which is but actually reach to the end user not the core protocol. uh you we as an EVM compatible layer can go to actually any event right we are sponsoring bunch of Ethereum related hackathons but that's essentially where all the EVM developers are uh so that they actually build applications who will on board the bitcoiners the bitcoin l1 technical discussion is I will say a bit sandbox like it doesn't go outside because most people don't care as long as they can use their bitcoin they don't care how they're doing doing it on the like op code level or like a meool policy level whatever u so I think these discussions like when you happening in Bitcoin plus opex I think one of the recent ones Bitcoin conference still happening but I will say those discussions are still good for developers like us but for the outside of ecosystem and like the application developers they don't matter that much and I I think that's a good thing too interesting um because I do think yeah it just sounds like there there still there is a lot of work that needs to be done to shift the perception of um seeing Bitcoin um you know that that that is activity that being built on the Bitcoin blockchain, but it doesn't have to be on the layer one. It to be layer two and and the scalable um you know Yeah.

uh solutions like like Citria. So I mean is are you both looking to do you want to reach new developers like uh because I think all every ecosystem as well whether it be Ethereum um Salana even now after they're they're they're going after more developers to you to build on their applications. So how how do you both see doing that? Yeah, absolutely. So I think the STAX community has actually done a lot of work.

I'll I'll tell you some funny stories, right? So um tell us one one story uh is that uh this is a couple of years ago. I was at a at a at a crypto event. And by the way, the crypto and Bitcoin communities, they sort of like are pretty separate, right? So the Bitcoin people, they don't even go and try to learn from from the rest of the industry.

they're very sort of like secluded and and and vice versa. Not a lot of people go to go to the Bitcoin side. So, but I'm one of those folks who had like, you know, one leg in one community, the other other in the other. So, I'm at this crypto dinner uh in LA and a friend of mine uh introduces me. Uh this is Mane, the only person building on Bitcoin, right?

So, I laughed. I laughed because it was um it was sadly true, right? and and and that has changed a lot that has changed a lot uh because of these L2s and more in so we very purposefully uh started doing like you know events trying to sort of like bridge the gap between these two communities and we'll we'll notice resistance like uh the main Bitcoin conference wouldn't even let us like on their stage right so we we would hack around it and we would sort of like colllocate a developer event like right next to the main event and then slowly sort of like try to try try try to build a profile. So, it's been it's been an interesting journey, but I I think now the the the situation is much much different like like interesting because yeah, you're right. I mean, you see this we're all in one industry.

We say crypto, right? But there is this like the Bitcoin maxi club and then there's the rest of the industry and then there's Ethereum and Salana and everyone else. So, um yeah, it's interesting to see the even the cultural Yeah. differences and wars that are happening within our industry, but at the end of the day, what are we all here to do? We're trying to bring more adoption for this industry.

So, it's good to hear. Um, yeah, what's your take on cuz you've come from the Ethereum kind of developer community and builder side. So I think for application developers there are only very few things that matters is like is there a business opportunity and do I believe what I do here and bitcoin is most people's belief actually uh especially like the early days of ethereum developers they were all bitcoiners including vitellic himself right he was building he he is the founder of bitcoin magazine and he was doing a lot of stuff around bitcoin and he founded ethereum later and bunch of the first generation of EVM developers was previously bitcoin maxis you call um and now actually most of the developers are still the same. They love Bitcoin but they don't know how to build on Bitcoin. So they go to the other ecosystems.

So I think the vision part is quite easy to match. The first part is the business opportunity which is obviously big by nature. The Bitcoin's market cap is couple times larger than any other asset. It's just like dominance is around I think 70% at the moment which is insane and there is little to no reason to build on any other ecosystem if you're able to build on Bitcoin because the business opportunity match the vision usually match which which I respect also the other builders building on other ecosystems because there's maybe some unique business opportunity that bitcoin doesn't have uh but usually I think once developers are convinced to what we are building and how we are building and that's basically knowing us they're quite easy and like just getting onto the ecosystem very very easily. Great.

Well, I mean the the title of this uh panel is Bitcoin's next chapter and so let's look at you know what's ahead um for the the Bitcoin ecosystem. What are both of your predictions for where Bitcoin is going to be in 2030? Now I realize that's like 5 years from now, but yeah, I think I think um the traction of the ETFs uh was very very interesting. like we got $60 billion of Bitcoin flowing into ETFs and that really shook Wall Street, right? Like they've never seen something growing that quickly.

Um and and my sort of like, you know, big prediction in the next coming years is that the Bitcoin deposited uh in L2s and DeFi would actually flip the Bitcoin that's in ETFs. And and I think that's a very interesting thing because people are already getting like the the old school Bitcoiners are already getting concerned about how much Bitcoin is sort of like sitting in the ETFs because it's very centralized is with like a very few custodians and there's a centralization risk on on on Bitcoin if if that trend continues. However, if the L2s take off and Bitcoin actually now goes into, you know, lending protocols like Zest on on on stacks or or other other chains, that's actually decentralized, right? It's not sitting with a single custodian. It's it's decentralized and then Bitcoin becomes more free.

I think I think my other prediction is that Bitcoin payments would make a comeback, right? Like there there have been technical reasons why people are are not using BDC. Yeah. When can we buy coffee again with Bitcoin? It needs to be cheap and fast and an amazing UX like you get on Salana.

But if you can bring that sort of user experience to Bitcoin L2s, which we we think we can, we're doing it. Uh I do think we might see a revival of of like direct BDC payments as well. Interesting. Bitcoin revival, right? Yeah, I think I'd like to see like applications and I'm hoping to see more applications that's actually useful for like real people who is not able to access to the financial systems around the world.

Uh if we can build something that's useful to get people on boarded to Bitcoin and send money freely around, use their assets without going through banks or regulations and like their local limitations. Um I think that's an important thing. I'm Turkish. I'm coming from Turkey. So I really experienced that kind of struggle and bitcoin is a quick way uh to just solve this problem if we are able to build these applications and I believe that there is enough developers to build all the applications we need for all the people who need bitcoin uh in the next 5 years.

Great. Um I I know it's besides the point but everyone loves a bitcoin price prediction. Do you both want to make a bold I mean even with all both of your bold uh insights and what's going to happen like you said it's going to the capital on DeFi is going to flip the money in in in bitco uh in bitcoin ETFs but yeah where do you think the price of bitcoin is going to be? I I I'll tell you my mental model right like I am um I treat my bitcoin as if it's going to be worth at least a million dollars. Yeah, right.

So, if you're keeping Bitcoin and you you want to you want to buy something with it, I I sometimes joke, right? Like like a I I I I don't liquidate, but I sometimes joke that, hey, whatever this thing you're buying today, you the the amount of money is actually at least a million dollars of one BDC that equivalent that you're spending, right? So, if you if you if you think think of it that way in terms of and then it might take a bunch of cycles to get there, right? Like I've seen BDC go from, you know, 100 to a,000,000 to 10,000, 10,000 to 100,000. We're only one hop away uh of getting there.

It might not happen this cycle, right? I think this cycle the most bullish predictions that I've seen are more in the in the in the 200k range, right? Uh not not not in the 500. I think it was yesterday on stage Arthur Hayes predicted like a million Bitcoin to be a million in like 2028 or something. Um, but it's interesting because that that you know that Bitcoin pizza story just it keeps coming back, you know, like buying pizza and then this is the how much it would have been worth today.

So, I guess that's the story. What about you? Do you want to make No, I'm not good at predictions. And I'm not good at price as well, but I only hope one thing that we price the dollar in terms of Bitcoin, but not the other way around. And that's that's my hope.

Cool. Um, and just to wrap up, final thoughts, you know, for for all of what of the vision of what you both are building to h uh to come to reality. What do you want to say or do you have like a call to action for the community? Um, yeah, to consider for if you are building something, I seriously suggest consider building on Bitcoin. Um, I obviously like to see all these applications on Citra because I think it provides the best infrastructure, but I also think there should be multiple L2s uh for multiple different use cases.

So, just build on Bitcoin and uh as long as it's self-custodial and it's useful for Bitco. Great. Yeah. My my uh call to action would be uh when you guys go home uh actually try to download something like leather. uh actually try to move whatever amount of Bitcoin into the L2 stacks and try to use an app, use Zest, use Granite, it would change your perception of Bitcoin.

Like you would actually the way you think about Bitcoin, it's almost like Bitcoin is getting a a major upgrade. It becomes a modern asset that's fast, that's cheap, that's actually useful. So try it out. No, that's exciting. And for me personally for uh you know my peer from we we work with a lot of um I guess EVM compatible Ethereum based applications but I'm personally quite excited about Bitcoin development and um I've been talking to a few projects.

So I'm really excited about yeah where Bitcoin is going to be. So you guys are pioneering it. So can we please give Manibb and Orcin a big round of applause? Thank you.