The 2020s: The Decade Ahead for Crypto - TOKEN2049 London 2021

welcome everyone um great to be here i'm diana biggs ceo of valor your moderator for this topic of the next decade in crypto as everyone here will be well aware this is a space that moves forward at a breakneck speed it only seems to be accelerating it can be difficult to know what's going to happen in the next week let alone the next decade but we've got a fantastic panel to share their predictions with us today who all come at the space from a unique uh equally interesting vantage point um so welcome max ceo and founder of lisk pete townsend who is recently named managing director of the launch pool web 3 tech stars accelerator and james whom who leads institutional sales at wilby max let's kick off with you because you've been in this sector now for a decade already nearly yeah lisk was launched in 2016. um from that historical perspective and also as a technologist yourself what have been the key learnings for you and what are you looking at going forward yeah so i'm in crypto since 2012 i'm turning 30 this year so it's like one third of my life i never did anything else um and lisk i started in 2016 and my key learnings i would say are like people always in the beginning looking the decade like back try to apply blockchain technology to existing industries like supply chain was this huge topic everyone talked about early on and i think that's not really the way to go so my key learning would be that in order to like bring blockchain technology somewhere you really have to disrupt existing existing industries and create new industries like defy or game fi these basically disrupted existing industries and brought something new to the plate um it's very similar like when new interfaces pop up like the internet on our blockchain people always try to apply this technology to existing or to the status quo like with the early internet you just said phone books like on websites and people were scrolling through these phone books while they could also just well throw a scroll through a book you know and it took like many decades to arrive at social media um and i think it will take for crypto also many many years to just become more like crypto native where all these use cases popping up starting to make sense what i always hear is like nfts don't make sense why should i pay so much for like a jpeg you know but i think as we're moving forward like now in the 2020s these different use cases which already exist today and the new ones coming start to like merge and while creating some kind of a well ecosystem which starting to make sense so yeah my key learning is that's find new industries or you have to find new industries which makes sense for blockchain and not try to like look into the old world and like trying to apply it there great um pete you came from traditional finance and increasingly working with fintech more broadly and now crypto how are you seeing that evolution as crypto now moves from niche to more center stage yeah yeah it's a good point max made some very good points there on applying blockchain to things that it doesn't need to be applied to right and that that's where this all came from for me so i you know going back to 2010 when i was still in banking and i'm calling myself now a reform banker that the first four years of crypto or first five years between 2009 and 2014 it was you know you might have been aware but you were dismissive right and it you just looked when i learned about it and when i eventually read the bitcoin white paper in 2014 late for most uh in the room but early for a for a reform banker that i saw a brand new framework for the capital markets and financial services in front of my face and you got very excited about blockchain you know and and seeing and then later reading the the eth white paper and seeing the beginnings of d5 in all of that people got incredibly excited and tried to separate like you're saying max okay crypto from blockchain right and i was part of that and you know drinking that kool-aid for a couple of years and then around 2017 2018 it was just some of the people i was working with that said no no it's all kind of one and the same and you know so that evolution of that mindset that i went through probably between 2014 and 2017 in the middle of that is when i left the banking world behind and became an early stage startup advisor and investor in fintech and digital assets that um you know there's still so many folks that are way behind that curve that just aren't seeing it yet and that there are people that i speak to in dublin where i'm from that are like oh my god pete you're you're in crypto um what's wrong with you you know and they they still don't get it and i've got my my my wealth manage my not my wealth man my financial advisor the guy that set me up with my independent pension fund right i wouldn't call him a wealth manager well he is but um i won't name him by name he i joke with him every now and again and it's like you know dude can i pay you crypto for that he's like absolutely not right so you know i i what i see what i see kind of happening though is that i'd say in the last three years especially in the last 18 months and whether it was you know parallel to covet or not but institutional interests going through the roof everyone and their sister now at the institutional level has some crypto investing unit and but the problem is they're trying to shoehorn crypto into these old school frameworks and old school asset management structures which just kind of negates so many of the benefits of investing in digital assets so um you know i'd say over the last 10 years the last 12 years it's so much has happened and so much has got has been done it's been so much progress in crypto there's so much more room to grow but i it's only gonna get faster it's only gonna go quicker and you've got to be able to take that pulse get in there uh do the deals or else you're just gonna be left behind right and this institutional interest in the last 18 months with kovid and continuing to accelerate james what are you seeing from that perspective i think i mean i've been in space for about three years or so in the exchange space for crypto and i think we've seen all the way from kind of back in 2017-18 i was essentially we just had retail versus hft traders in the space there was no kind of rounded participation but in the past two years and even the past six to 12 months i think that's really changed especially with etps like yourselves and different parts of the space is really growing we've seen a much more rounded participation and i think that in turn helps everything else grow as well um so you've seen that and i think also time with kind of what you said the infrastructure about the traditional markets and everyone expecting crypto exchanges or crypto otc desks whatever it may be sometimes it's hard for those guys to come in and see what we do and go well this is miles away from how we expect things to be but the infrastructure is now i think in 2017 when we had that big rise up to 20k institutions came and had a look in and went oh this looks good to us there's loads of volume but we don't have the infrastructure to trade it yeah and that's as an exchange and especially there's fine brokers out there lending deaths as well we're really seeing that space grow and i think now i mean we're speaking there's tens of kind of billion dollar plus asset managers that we're speaking to now and they're starting to get with the offerings we have and we've got some stuff kind of in the works as well this will be hong kong asset management that we're working on which is a more regulated business and the infrastructure's starting to grow and actually get there now for these guys to come and play because i think as a hedge fund or a trader or any of the institutional guys in the space they want they do want to get involved but sometimes it's just a question of how they can actually come and play essentially what the guys want to but their uh compliance and legal teams would have sleepless nights if they try to uh or i mean they do want to but yeah there would be legal teams out there or compliance teams that would just say clout no it's just not it's not a conversation so i think that's the main thing that i've seen and especially in the past i think the guys would speak the big hedge funds out there we've been speaking to for probably two years or so as jan feb this year all of a sudden it was like all of all of those guys came back and said right the guys had said no we kind of like this we kind of like the idea jan feb was the moment where they all went yeah we want to do this how can we do it in the past six or nine months there's been a lot of back and forth and a lot of due diligence questionnaires as well about how we can help these guys and really accommodate them on the platform and we're starting to get to the point now and kind of september october times that there these big guys are here and they're starting to trade and i think we'll continue to see that theme kind of continue makes sense fantastic and arguably one of the the biggest trends when we look towards the next decade that everyone is speaking about now is web 3 actually becoming a functional reality and one would argue that this decentralized internet was always sort of the original dream of it and now we're seeing that we have the building blocks and then it's coming more to life pete in your new role with web3 accelerator what are you looking for ahead of that yeah it's all come together pretty uh pretty well and launch pool with tech stars together getting this accelerator together back probably about four or five months ago where they started talking about it bringing it all together in may june time frame and then i just joined in the last couple of weeks the real attraction there for me was that i've been in the space for the last five six years and i truly believe in it and i want to see it grow but i know that there's so much building still to be done because we have this wonderful um digital ecosystem of money and of assets that exists and is doing incredibly well but we still have so much in traditional finance that needs to move ahead right and you know there are plenty of examples out there like you're saying james of the the institutions that have embraced this but in building what's coming down the road i see obviously crypto d5 nft blockchain itself tokenization all is building blocks of the future anyone out there read the book ready player one show of hands a few folks okay takes place in the year 2044. it's this call it utopian if you want call it dystopia if you want in that everyone is you know you there's this wonderful virtual reality metaverse called oasis and you wear these vr visors you wear these haptic gloves you could wear a haptic suit if you want you have these treadmills that you can run around on and you can completely forget all your problems and run away to oasis to the metaverse and live your life inside there all right and that was the vision of this book now the year 2044. it had been in existence for 5-10 years to that point in time but society itself war-torn plague ridden you see a little bit of that over the last 18 months a little bit right so i just read that book in the last few weeks and i woke up at five o'clock on a saturday morning when i had 25 of the book to go i thought i'd just read it and fall back asleep and i read it for three hours right i finished the book wonderful what is the point of me sharing that with you guys today when i think about this accelerator in web3 and i think about the type of companies that we want to bring in techstars is a founder first accelerator techstars is a mentorship led accelerator bringing together with launch pool and bringing that web 3 component is the first chain agnostic accelerator that techstars are doing and thinking about these building blocks of crypto and pulling that all together um we've got some of the examples out of ready player one when you can earn these credits playing this game and bring that into the real world okay that is obviously crypto we're seeing that already with axe infinity but that's just a 2d game that you're playing right it's not an immersive experience when you are in this oasis metaverse and you are borrowing um you know 10k from a friend or 10k from say a loan guild to buy this armor for your skins that's a little bit of defy and that's a little bit of nft okay all of this supported on a decentralized blockchain tokenized platform when you read that book and you see that vision i haven't seen the movie yet it's a spielberg movie you kind of start to imagine all this stuff and so when i see that i'm thinking about this accelerator is it a gaming accelerator absolutely not it's recognizing that we've got a lot to build to get to this future and i think are we going to try to prevent it from being a dystopian future i think that's too much to ask at this stage for an accelerator in the year 2021 but taking that founder first approach and saying are these rock stars founders that can build fantastic businesses and are they still humble and open for mentorship those are the two big things that we're looking for below that in terms of the web 3 ideals you know i could rattle off and say out of the 10 companies we're going to end up with we're looking for two of those two of this two of this and two of this that would short change the whole thing this is about the process of selecting the founders we're going to get in the applications we're going to see some fantastic people you know that we're going to look at and you know i'm really excited about the mix of founders that we're going to end up with here and bringing that all to dublin in ireland for the first time for tech stars as well fantastic um and mass as one of these potential building blocks elements how how are you seeing the the web 3 shift with lisk yeah i think you raised a very good point that there's still so much building which needs to be done and that's why at least we're building tools for developers to enable them to build blockchain applications and it took us like two three years to actually build our own blockchain and now with the tools we developed out of that it takes the developer just one hour to come up with their own blockchain and make a blockchain application out of that and i think looking ahead the developer and user experience will continue to become better and better and the number of use cases will go up like you said there are still so many different use cases just out of traditional finance which have to come into defy but so are so many other areas which are still unexplored so i think it's up to the developers to explore these unknown areas today it didn't or it doesn't stop at define game file there will be so many new use cases popping up in the decade ahead and talking about ready player one and um you mentioned bringing the digital world and back on the crypto world back into the real world i think going forward um the real world and the digital world will merge more together until the point where it becomes one just a world we see apple moving or at least that's a rumor since many years moving heavily into ar in order to well enable people to enter this digital world while just walking around the city and so on and i think like the youth nowadays well they don't buy maybe in real estate so much anymore which the people with the old money did they're trying to find new innovative ways to invest and put their money in and that's what i'm pretty excited about like just new crazy ideas coming from these developers building and creating essentially a new world the world we will see in 2044 or whenever so it becomes a positive world and not a dystopian future and yeah for us at lisk it's all about just enabling developers to build use cases because i don't know actually where we're heading towards like five six years ago if i would be on this panel i would have not said defy game fi and we got announced here stating this is the most difficult panel of the day um i'm not like a magician i cannot foresee what's coming but what i can do is to put the necessary work into lisk or in general into what we're working on um in order to let these 12 or 15 million javascript developers out there with our tools all written in javascript to explore what's coming next um we believe that out of these experiments real startups and use cases emerge so that's what we're just trying to do let them experiment with blockchain technology in order to find what's coming ahead for crypto do you mind if i ask a question go for it really interesting point that you brought up and i'm thinking do you think that the majority of the growth of the crypto space of the digital space is going to come from the natural organic growth of that as the global population increases or will it be from the existing fiat traditional financial system bringing money into uh the crypto space or going to be organic or this convergence in this transfer over yeah i think the most interesting use cases will be built by young people yeah like 16 year olds 20 years old who still don't are trapped in the old world but which for them crypto is normal crypto is like what they're doing you know they don't know anything else their thought processes are not trapped in old ideas and i think innovation will mainly come from these kind of people and then the older people will try to well adopt and get used to it but well with a slower pace like when facebook came around like the young people were jumping on it the students um were the first adopters and then slowly but surely like the older people joined it as well like our mothers and fathers and then the young people already moved on yeah and i think with crypto it will be similar that while younger people will build it will adopt it older people then will try to join it and then by the time the older people join the young people already moved ahead and you said we're just accelerating everything everything is just going quicker and quicker and i think that's where everyone will have a problem going forward to just adopt these new things because the day after something new is already happening but i think that's also where we are focusing more going forward on communities where these communities stay together and well innovate within their own community like nft is essentially a community yeah um if you go to crypto twitter and follow these nft collectors they have their own terminology even like gm good morning or friends like it's a community and it's something people want to be part of um and that's also something very interesting but i think younger people will innovate yeah now that's a good point but on a counterpoint there what we are seeing with the institutionals with tradfi and others is that now they're starting to move away from just holding maybe some bitcoin some ethereum and to actually waking up to this broader movement of d5 and the possibilities that are out there and it's becoming increasingly more of a risk to not do anything in the space but in terms of that infrastructure similar to what we saw with fintech we move from this idea of these traditional institutions being completely disrupted to actually them understanding that they will need to collaborate because they do not have the internal teams or skill sets to actually build out their own infrastructure so rather than potentially using existing d5 protocols as a layer that they will then build their applications on top of is that something you might be seeing a shift towards that it will be with your institutional clients yeah i think we we see a few different things i think i'll circle back just what pete said earlier we definitely see a lot of rock stars that are building i think building building building we obviously i think something like 40 or 50 of the the space quant traders in terms of the trading side of things and a lot of those are naturally devs um so i've seen a lot have a lot of people from that are devs and quant traders or hedge funds with us that all of a sudden have seen d fire not just as an opportunity to go and trade and see opportunity there but to actually go and build something as max i'm sure you're tied into well and at hawaii i think our kind of main involvement in the d5 space i think at the moment is vc so we've actually just set up a 10 million uh gamer five fund and we do a lot of i think we've got three or four other vce teams so it's kind of we try and help probably similar to the way you do to a lot of the d5 guys out there and kind of assist and push forward the space because i think at the end of it a lot of what we're involved in we're kind of at the center in a sense we see the retail flow and obviously the reset want to see a lot more stuff in d5 and um yeah we definitely see a lot of the rockstar teams and developers that are really building some great projects and i think that's just going to continue yeah there's more people i think a lot more people are flowing into the space now whether it be the trading side of things or d5 because the opportunity there is so big it's big enough for now the guys that will come out of facebook google to to really push the space forward and we've definitely seen some a lot more sophisticated real top talent enter the space especially in the d5 or the web 3.0 world yeah what i'm eager to see is speaking of rock stars like uh the collison brothers who are from ireland uh john and patrick who are stripe right and that i kind of hold up from a fintech perspective and think about bridging into crypto i hold up stripe and square right square are clearly already there okay and square have this wonderful thing called the flywheel which i won't get into because it gets me very excited and it's way off topic and but square i think are bridging that gap between small businesses individuals um and bringing in introducing crypto into that i want to see what striper doing because stripe have been they've come up that value chain from the smaller businesses into the bigger businesses and what are they going to do in the crypto space in order to bridge that gap over into the institutions i think you know the point of saying that um there's so much wealth out there right now that we could bring into this space and and just keep fueling the innovation and fueling the fantastic entrepreneurs that are building in this space and fueling the 16 year olds like you're saying that are coming up with these ideas that no one's thought of yet i got very excited about this concept of dynamic nfts where i can buy the entire boston red sox digital collectible nft set and that when they win the game and for the 24 hours between the win and then they play again and they might lose the next game that the picture of them on that digital collectible card just from them just sitting there with a bat in their hand and them having their hands up like yeah we won right and being able to see those types of things happening i don't know if a 16 year old kid in boston might come up with that idea right but having enabling all of this fiat wealth to come into this space i think is a good thing um now with that brings this little r word called regulation obviously that um you know we got to be careful of because there's a lot coming down that path as well yeah very difficult to look at the decade ahead without at least putting some consideration into the regulation and the implications that that has not only for the applications that we're going to be seeing but also how different geographies fare um depending on what their their scope of what they're able to do yeah um yeah i think there's a lot it's a lot going on obviously a lot of um i think you know thinking about the eu and thinking about the progressive regulatory mindset that has been here because they're in the eu because the the kind of the cross-cultural dynamic and different ideas different mindsets feeding this regulatory approach um and seeing markets and crypto assets start to unfold a lot still a lot of work to do there with mika mica or there's one other pronunciation of that that i don't get um that's coming in the year 2024 that's talking about stable coins being more equivalent to e-money there's already an e-money institution regime in place looking at the u.

s and seeing the big investigation they're doing now into stable coins with subpoenaing uh doing the subpoena the sec subpoenaed circle uh who are the issuer of usdc uh to do some investigation into them and they're probably the you know the best governed stablecoin issuer out there um i'm if i were a betting man which i am sometimes i would say that in the u.s if there was an e-money institution regime they'd be in a much better position right now because um e-money and the regulatory concept of that in europe is very close to stable coins from a usdc definition okay which is close to 100 reserve of cash and i'd like to see over the coming years the u.s do this the right way and to me i think the us doing this the right way is the same as how ireland created its investment funds industry in the 90s the way they did that state street bank of new york aib in ireland all got together with the financial regulator in ireland and said here's how you regulate investment funds and they built this fantastic regime that's now worth four or five trillion dollars i think we need that collaborative approach where industry puts forward its own and says if we're going to regulate this this is how we do it and present it because it's coming and it's if there's this opportunity to bring all this institutional wealth into this space i think that the only um there is a libertarian streak in me for being part of this for the last few years but i i think it's part and parcel with bringing in massive amounts of global wealth into this space absolutely and james as an exchange coming out of asia how is regulation playing a role in your global growth i mean it's huge i think it's hard not to talk about as you said earlier i mean we we started eight years ago we just on like a year anniversary now and we operate in over 170 countries so you can imagine the operation it takes to even just stair flow or just realize what's going on in each one of those regions so yeah it's huge and not a lot of people notice but we have also a lot of regulated businesses so i think we've got six or seven different regulated entities whether they be asset managers otc desks and if you have different things like trust companies for husd for instance um but definitely a big part of our plans going forward i think it shows in what we've done in the past few years specifically um we've really pushed forward on our huawei hk uh platform which now has similar to itself obviously the ctps um so we want to be able to go to the big institutional clients and not just sell them the kind of spot and derivatives main venue but we want to be able to have participation from the people that come into the space and say hey you want to trade but we can't come and do this but we want some exposure to bitcoin so for instance we've got btc products these products similar to that of grayscale we've also got a multi-asset product and also an actively managed fund which is obviously looks a lot more similar to traditional and it is that kind of step into the market and it can open doors for us and have the initial chats where we can kind of educate the institutions i think what i've definitely found in the last two years or so is a lot of his the guy the institutions when they come into this space and they kind of come in and say hey we want to trade but how do we do it what what's going to fit our kind of trading style what's going to fit the way we want to invest and some of it's just education it takes time we're starting to kind of get there now especially on some of the bigger guys and especially more of the kind of big buy sides guys that come into space and whoever hk kind of gives us the opportunity to to speak to them at the beginning and kind of give them an idea of how this stuff works because as much as crypto sometimes can look a bit like traditional in the way the infrastructure's been built obviously a lot of it kind of comes from whether it be fx or derivative space and everyone could try to remodel different things and work them into crypto um but yeah i think we've done a good job of kind of putting huawei hk together and trying to get to the institutions first and then kind of educating them on the more quirky let's say kind of crypto native um exchange side of things if that makes sense i'm with you and max does regulation affect your outlook with list yeah i mean of course uh that's our favorite topic i guess i know um for me regulation is a necessary evil but important and necessary what evil um like when we started lisk we had to go to switzerland because in the whole world it wasn't possible to establish a crypto entity which did an ico um and then we did it like the ethereum way in switzerland as a foundation um and since then obviously many many things changed um jurisdictions started to think about crypto adopted new regulations like mika for example in europe and with the foundation and our lawyers we are part of the working groups and contributing to regulation um but from a crypto perspective not from a traditional law finance perspective we're trying to make the regulations as well easy and good as possible for entrepreneurs because we are enabling developers or entrepreneurs to build something and i think regulation always puts like a wall between an innovative idea and the execution of it so i'm not a big fan but speaking about regulation i think the only way forward because we're talking about how everything is accelerating in this world and you will see innovation on a daily basis going forward i think the only sustainable way going forward is radical decentralization so that means a smart contract doesn't necessarily have an entity behind it it's just a smart contract it's just cold living on the blockchain which can be executed by other people and if there's no entity behind it maybe even no team behind it just anonymous characters then there's no one to lock away you know like um i had a had a podcast interview a few weeks back i think with crypto101 and he essentially said to me well you did something very dangerous because you don't know now or in 10 years you can still be locked away for what you did in 2016. um and like looking at the decade ahead maybe for some entrepreneurs they want to stay anonymous and they just want to embrace this radical decentralization in order to not bother with regulation they just the token is tradable on the dex their app or the use case is living as a smart contract on for example ethereum and they get maybe a fee or well revenue through the blockchain protocol somehow and i think that would be the only sustainable way going forward unless you want to open that very difficult pandora box of uh regulation and staying compliant um because it's a lot of work like we're putting a lot of work into staying compliant and i have to say it harmed us in execution speed in the past years there's always something new around the corner always something you have to take care of we're being audited like a bank every year we have to do quarterly audits of our code base and of our deliveries and so much work which is essentially not necessary because no one checks it anyways we do all these things but they don't really check they just see the result and all fine but it's not any advantage to the jurisdiction to the government to us so i'm more like about open regulation or no regulation at all and let the space regulate itself um that would be my statement yeah i hear you and you can't eat you know like you said it's trust the code not the institution all right and that you know i i think that the crux of this is going to be is the growth going to come from just this natural organic growth of the crypto space and the changing tides of the population in the demographic split of the population and will that just create this tipping point where the digital asset ecosystem just becomes money and how we spend money how we save how we invest how we insure um you know i think that is the big question or will that happen but we're also going to have this wave of conversion and it's that wave of conversion where of letting go of these old ideals about how you regulate money whether that's fiat or it's you know crypto um i think that demographic and whether it be a conver conversion or organic growth i think is going to make the difference yeah yeah yeah i mean like i talked about 16 year olds going to innovate they don't want to bother with legal questions no and i think like just because things are going to change so rapidly no one will be behind the fact anymore and we will see i think a true explosion of use cases going forward and everything is a little bit different like like i think with smart contracts you can do so much there's a whole other topic but let's just start with consensus algorithms of different blockchains like for example proof of stake or delegate proof of stake no proof-of-stake protocol is the same there are small differences and they can make a huge difference in staying compliant or not and like you could do a legal like a legal opinion on it and try to secure yourself with it but no regulator is going to understand all these different um like proof stake protocol differences so you cannot stay legal you can just protect yourself as good as possible and hope for the best that's where i think everyone here in the room who is an entrepreneur or developer please embrace radical decentralization and just innovate as fast as possible because i think the world needs it and certainly anyone in the room who comes from traditional finance will be well aware of the effect that having more efficient regulation and compliance management would just have on the speed and the pace of innovation and what anyone is able to do so that will definitely be a major turning point for for the space to move forward i think we have time to take maybe one or two questions from the audience if anyone wanted to ask this oracle from the future about the next decade quiet bunch no questions oh we got there um so one of the ideas i heard about earlier was the idea that transaction per second will increase and increase over time almost like transaction tps is the new bandwidth so as bandwidth and the internet increased we got new use cases uh same thing for for blockchain um what what type of use cases do you think you could see with just astronomically increased transactions per second ask that to anyone yeah maybe uh me from a tech standpoint i would be careful with that statement that tps are going to increase easily because there are certain limitations in place you cannot work around it is decentralized so if you increase your tps it's going to be less decentralized because well peer to peer works in a certain way and at one point you cannot make it more efficient so we're seeing like new blockchain projects actually sacrificing decentralization for speed solana probably one of the best uh examples or eos um with lisk we go middleway we're not that decentralized like bitcoin or ethereum but also therefore not that slow like them but obviously it is going to play an important role going forward with use cases however you have to always keep in mind that the blockchain is just a ledger for very important information so we're not going to see people storing like let's say entire books or movies or whatever on the blockchain it's always about small hashes for example so the only thing with an increase in tps in my opinion will do is to decrease the fees you need to spend on that blockchain because um like if you have like 100 tps or 50 tps or 1000 gps new use cases might not really emerge out of that but it's just going to be cheaper to use your blockchain application that's what i think okay super fast we've got 40 seconds could i just get from each of you what are you most excited for in the decade ahead james i think i'm going to have to be quite boring here and go for the uh the institutional answer but i think the infrastructure and the adoption side of things we've still not got a prime broker in the in the institutional space i think it'll be interesting to see who the winners are um so i think that's one side of things i think also just to come from the retail adoption side as well i think nfts if we don't mention nft someone's going to get angry in the room so no great great that's great i i want my dynamic nfts like i said for the boston red sox but i think we're going to see in the next 10 years what i'm excited about is i'm going to predict a major u.s stock exchange shutting down because everyone's de-listed and moved to attacks awesome and i'm the most excited about just seeing more users of blockchain technology and blockchain applications and less investors i think this technology is amazing and should be used great well thank you everyone thank you