Building Blockchains: A Comparative Look at Different Approaches - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2023

all right let's kick things off so uh before we go any further let's just start with very quick intros uh to state your name and the blockchain that you represent Ilya near Mo Aptos at any sui okay amazing and then hopefully we'll have one more joining us soon um so each of you represents a different layer one blockchain what is the killer feature that sets your platform apart from the other ones on the stage okay direct that answer at them not at me usability are you answering for me so for us like we we focus from the start on usability and usability spans across account model it's fancy crowd programming model it's fans across uh kind of how you like scale the networks such that developers and users don't need to think about the underlying kind of infrastructure and so kind of at every layer of Stack we think how do we simplify make it easy for people to onboard to build to kind of Leverage this technology and ideally don't need to know about specific details of the underlying Tech I think usability is a great one you know we think about it across the entire ecosystem not only for developers but also for the end user you know coming from the Facebook world we want it to be as easy as possible for someone who is not a web 3 native individual to be able to use the protocol and so this is where we enable things like move right a smart contract language that makes it really easy and safe and secure also abstracting away the complexity for the developer right and we just announced a partnership with someone like Microsoft where that development's going to become even easier that allows the developers to build applications that are focused on Innovation instead of focusing on you know spending a lot of time struggling with a stack and so usability has to be enabled but how do you do that we think move is a differentiating factor yeah I mean I'm actually happy to be on the panel hearing people talking about usability rather than scale because that gets super boring very quickly for us our focus is really enabling developers to build great applications right now we think the the multitude of problems namely um for consumers namely the idea of a wallet is quite Troublesome for many product floats the idea of gas is idiotic for many Flows In fact you could lose most of your onboarding flow as a result of just introducing that Paradigm and it's just a pure concept of not knowing what you're agreeing to when you when you approve a small contract so these are the things we've built into in three in day one so namely you can onboard via email you don't have to worry about gas because it's sponsored by some other entity so some other from a large extent if you're a game developer or you are a D5 protocol you can onboard people a lot more easier so we can go into a lot of other details that I think I'll spare the time goon it's great to have you glad you could join us um very briefly your name the blockchain you represent and the first question is what is the killer feature that sets your platform apart from the others on the stage sure my name is amen I'm the founder of avalabs which is the company behind the Avalanche blockchain simply put Avalanche is the most technically Innovative system out there it innovated on the most fundamental level with the consensus protocol it is completely different than everybody else's consensus protocol far far far more efficient than others and but it also innovated on Bridges it brought in the idea of sgx into using bridges that are secure unhackable trustworthy it innovated with the use of of various um uh or evolved wallets the core wallet is the best of its kind for using cross cross chain multi-chain assets and of course it innovated with the use of Ava Cloud the idea of of law launching custom bespoke blockchains those are the things that make us very different So speaking of differences one big similarity between Aptos and sui so you both kind of come from this move ecosystem but there's a significant differences between the how the two of you represent that ecosystem talk to us about the differences between the two blockchains and why the you know how do you conceptualize move given that you two are the different representatives of that ecosystem sure how about to go first so um our team is made up of a lot of the engineers and researchers that developed the DM blockchain Evan Chung was the head of r d for Facebook that was running Libra um Sam the inventor of the move programming language George cost us the event of all the crypto we built at Facebook and myself the random product team that led r d so we had a different approach when we're building Libra the goal was really focused around enabling Banks to on-ramp so you had add access to the network and then users it basically didn't have a direct access and network so we didn't we were not really challenged to build the most scalable chain we're built we're trying to build something that works and would meet the Regulatory Compliance that was needed when we left Facebook we're not given any of the shackles so we took move reinvented it actually improved it made the object object-based we're able to take some really um complex consensus protocols that were working with at Facebook and actually improve them better novel and bullshock and fast pay and we put them all into one system so three move has a benefit it of it it's horizontal horizontally scales so there's no Max TPS it's object oriented so if you're a normal object-oriented programmer you understand streaming very very easily it doesn't have gas that goes and spikes based on on usage because block space is not a rare resource like other blockchains so I think we've taken an approach where developers can build just like you expect to deploy something on Amazon or Google where you have fixed fees when a network gets busy you add more resources and it takes care of the demand so that element is what we've actually built we've we have decades and Decades of experience Building Systems that are used by billions and billions of people doing but they are that's the expertise we've brought into us we move so Aptos move is special and you know we also have an amazing team that's been working on move for a long time and and going along the lines of what Ilya was talking about we think about usability and so you can have all sorts of Innovations but if no one is using them they don't really matter and so instead what we think about when we think about move is enabling things to continue to make it easier for developers one is we have something called the move prover the move prover allows you to form a formal verification before you actually deploy a move smart contract that makes Aptos move differentiated from the move that's out there the second which we think is really important is making updates at the language layer sweeba I believe makes it at the adapter layer and so by making those improvements at the language layer now you have much more usability when it comes to running those smart contracts as well and so this is something that's you know not something you know we're looking at in a silo I don't know I mean if you heard of movement it's a group of people that actually came together that are trying to uh put move in the approxy in the Avalanche ecosystem and it's the Aptos move and that's very exciting for us even folks like polygon are taking note of what we built within that ecosystem and implementing block STM we really appreciate that at Aptos and then you have partners that are really taking advantage of it right so with Innovation comes market demand and so when we started speaking with Microsoft a while ago they realized Aptos move is equally special for them and so they've enabled building things like GitHub co-pilot using uh using move where smart contract development will become even easier for developers so that's very exciting and then the last thing is yes it's nice to see web two companies take advantage of Aptos move but two days ago we just announced Sushi swap Sushi swap an evm darling been building into space for almost you know since since the very early days they saw Aptos move and and realize there's something deep here we've only been live for 11 months they've seen the changes that we've made 47 aips pushed move language you know to to that usability component and they feel comfortable taking Aptos move and bringing it to the evm world which we think is really special too so let's see if I want to jump in also yeah please say a few things so uh I know the question was all about move uh but but I want to Accent anyway two things one Avalanche unlike many other systems out there uh Avalanche is not a single chain system remember that there are systems out there I would say Bitcoin is a single chain single asset system it's changed with ordinals but it's really one chain one asset ethereum is a single chain multiple assets many other chains are single chain multiple assets Avalanches multiple chains each and every one of those chains can be different and have have a different VM in it and when it comes to for example a new and emerging virtual machine like move we can easily spin out a new chain with the move virtual machine in it and that's exactly what some people are doing on top of us with the movement system where we're taking the the move VM and making it run inside the Avalanche ecosystem so that you can seamlessly the access the exact same new features of the move virtual machine that were developed and now on that topic the second thing I want to point out is that the granddaddy of move is of course Libra Facebook's initial attempt at starting a new virtual machine in this space and libras for the first author on the Libra paper it was my student when I was a professor at Cornell University I sent my student to the West Coast for a summer he came back saying I worked on something cool and it turns out he was the first author of what eventually became Libra's consensus protocol and then he said but I want to work on something truly Innovative and I want to work on Avalanche so that's part of the Avalanche story as well did you so did you just call me the granddaddy good I had a question I want to directed you um so of anybody on the stage like it's I think we can say that Avalanche with the dominance of the sea chain has shown the most Embrace of the evm out of all these folks on stage um how do you think about the evm so you know if you something actually Jill Carlson once told me is that the number one lesson from the last few years of building blockchains is never fight ethereum how how do you reflect on the role of ethereum sort of its gravitational force as you guys are building out Avalanche that's a great question so um well first and foremost all of us on Avalanche almost all of us I would say 99 of us came from ethereum so uh we love ethereum we want it to succeed and Avalanche emerged as a scalability solution for ethereum ethereum it wasn't clear if it was going to be able to make the switch to proof of stake and it talked a big game so uh the the game as you know this is the entire crypto space is full of people who sell dreams they dangle a carrot in front of you and often that carrot is forever ahead of you it's kind of like waiting for good though you're waiting for something to happen and it just never appears there it just never arrives and and one of the main things the main value proposition we brought is we know how to build systems other people can do the salesman job but we are here to deliver the dream that other people are promising to you so so um we started out with the evm we wanted the evm to run a lot faster and we showed the world how that could be done I got so much pushback when we were initially coming out saying that's not where the bottlenecks are etc etc and we saw through the bull market that Avalanche was consistently far far cheaper than ethereum so you're right we don't want to fight with ethereum we want it to succeed we want the evm to win almost everybody in this room who's done smart contract programming has touched the evm I know I touched the evm and I don't want to lose that expertise I want to be able to carry that forward at the same time I don't want to be hampered by lack of delivery I don't want to to uh to Forever wish for things that are not being delivered I would like us to for example build really fast chain chains I would like us to have application specific chains I strongly believe for example that a single chain can never conquer the world the world is a complex place so Singaporean rules are different from American rules different from Chinese rules different from every other rule out there you need to be able to have chains that are specific to different use cases and that's one of the key value propositions that Avalanche brings so that's how I think of it we think of ourselves as entirely complementary vitalik has always been a close friend somebody I love dearly I want ethereum to succeed but I don't know that it can get there with the vision it's on and I think of avalanche as delivering a different Vision we've fundamentally differ on how that can be done we don't believe in punting the problem to a different layer we believe in solving problems we believe in fast consensus we believe in Fast implementations and Innovative uses of cutting-edge technology in blockchains and that's what we've been doing so Ilia so near takes a very different approach than the other folks on this stage not just the virtual machine but also in the consensus right so ethereum has talked a big game about sharding and now at this point you know it's more or less abandoned the uh the goal that it's had of eventually actually shipping something started um how do you think about sharding uh as as a part of how near is telling a bigger story than the story that ethereum was trying to tell yeah so kind of generally speaking I mean folks from meta have noses very well like what you want is ability to scale with more demand you want to make sure that you know you don't come to Netflix and when you try to watch a movie it says like hey it's going to cost you more because other people watching the same movie right and ideally like this should be true about any application not just you know uh you're saying like well there's some applications that are really busy and like now you need to figure this out so from this perspective kind of I mean the only way to do this is to do parallel processing and so the question and like all of us are doing parallel processing and everybody else in kind of layer one and Layer Two world is doing that the question is how you do it and what are the kind of uh things that you're pushing to the user and developer land right and so kind of original vision for ethereum like with sharding was that the developers and users don't need to know about uh what kind of specific chart you know computation it is and we really like taking trying to take that as as far as possible where like actually if you go to our blog Explorer you will not see shards although they are there like as a user or developer you should not need to think about it like ideally you know it can expand and collapse capacity as it needs to and at the same time you should be able to write applications that potentially is them self-sharded and and and can process you know any kind of amount of throughput now you still need this flexibility that evm move and other uh platforms offer and kind of generically what you want is VM like on on a base level that can offer anything right and so we chose webassembly which is something that everybody uses right every single browser every single like on edge compute right now using webassembly and it allows to run all the other stuff on top of it so we've been running evm for past two years on top of our webassembly engine uh with like very little overhead which is just showcasing you can take another blockchain just to run it as a smart contract on there and so you I mean you can do similar with move you can do similar with for example we've done in this JavaScript so we have food end-to-end JavaScript applications as well but kind of beyond that I mentioned the um we're trying to abstract this complexity well we do acknowledge that there's other layer once there's other layer twos and so that complexity is still there and so what we've been working on for past year what we call blockchain operating system is really abstracting that out even more and so now with decentralized front ends that we have and some of the identity Solutions we're doing what we want users to do is actually not think about layer ones or layer twos they should be using applications and applications may live you know part of it may live on one layer one part of it on Layer Two account account may live in the other thing and we have all the routing and kind of remote accounts and everything underneath figuring all this out and just providing the end-to-end decentralized front end for this and that's kind of the like ultimate vision is really not about you know we have like all those layer ones competing it's really about kind of all of these networks will cross settle to each other and you'll have just experiences on top that everybody can use yeah okay so so far I think this discussion has been pretty abstract um I wanna I wanna kind of bring it down to a normal user level I'd love to hear from each of you one feature or some technical feature that's on the roadmap for your blockchain that's going to improve the user experience like that a normal user interacting with blockchain will be like this is awesome um yeah so we're launching so we launched fastos which is a way to sign up as an email and uh we use passkey that's secured secure Enclave in your device to create cryptography multi-party competition which is being used by validators to recover your account so like you don't see you don't need to install wallet you don't need to see the Xerox stuff and you can use an account now the next thing we're launching with that is what we call remote accounts so now that you have a near account you'll be able to transact on all other chains because we actually have cryptography kind of signing your transactions by the near Wilder Network on all of the chains on your behalf as your transaction here so near will become in a way Hub that kind of customers your accounts on all other chains similar how you have it with coinbase on binance but it's fully non-custodial fully decentralized and so this allows to now realize this Vision I mentioned where you log in into an app and you start transacting on different you know D5 application and gaming Etc and it doesn't matter which change they're on right because you have this identity solution and so we just rolled out dab dab which is a defy aggregator that already has all the layer two like a bunch of layer twos near and like few other chains are coming to really abstract out and showcase it's almost like app store kind of aggregator of applications in one place so you know check it out it's hard to pick one there's there's so many um I think Ilia talked about a few things that a lot of us are probably working on when it comes to abstracting away the complexity the sign-on component and I think that brings a lot of web to users into web3 um there's there's kind of one interesting model for us that we've been paying very close attention to sharding is certainly one thing right consensus mechanisms are continuously evolving as well and happy to go into more detail if you have enough time but I think you know there's so many games that have been exploring and building in web 3. and a lot of them have started picking Aptos but there's one interesting feature that we're going to be rolling out that's going to be quite unique on chain a stake based randomness and so now you can have randomization on chain that Randomness is secured by the same stake that's being used to secure the blockchain itself and so if you think about what that really means is you know imagine you go to an online casino where trust does not necessarily exist today you know imagine you're trying to open up a treasure chest within a game you can now have randomization that is actually available again and secure that we think is going to be obviously a differentiator gaming is taking full advantage of that but there's so many other interesting things that you can apply that to so I think on-chain stake based Randomness is something that we're very excited about on Aptos and will be the only ones to to provide that yeah a bit of context um I think for us we all talk about usability and I think I can't agree anymore with the Elias you're doing a great job here um one of the things we're very excited about is something we're calling a ZK login um this is the first bit of technology using ZK proofs as a measure of allowing anyone to use any existing oauth ID so Microsoft Facebook Google you name it any any web to Identity you have today with a ZK proof using or an SDK effectively can prove itself on chain and create deterministic accounts so this means any wallet in the world any website in the world can effectively have a three account without having to either pay gas or even worry about the complexities of a chain we already have people building casinos ensui using randomization we already have online Randomness these are areas and I think in terms of numbers right there are 60 games signed up to be on three 50 game studios some of the largest game studios in the world already building on suite and we're only in it for four months so everything we focused on is really on enabling Enterprise to build at scale applications that would work for them allow them to be profitable so if you're building an app or a game you do not want to worry about gas going up or down gas and Suite Dollar Wise is always flat because the validators quote on a on a per Epoch basis what the gas price could be and use a game studio if the game costs half a cent to play today in five weeks it'll still be half a cent that is very unique to Sweden unique in the ecosystem as a whole so this is a road map question and I want to first point out a Meta Meta level issue anytime a roadmap question comes up there is a tendency for people to stand in front of you and to try to Dazzle you with keywords fully homomorphic this ZK this uh you know accumulators verifiable delay functions verifiable random functions and so on so and I know that the crowds eat this up okay and the funny thing is um I think the uh I'm definitely the second most cited author of a Bitcoin paper after Satoshi Nakamoto and I certainly I think I'm the academic with the most number of Publications in the blockchain space I could do that up here with you all day long and I will choose not to and I want you to if you take away anything from this if this is the big differentiator for Avalanche we're not here to Forever deliver to you a whole bunch of gobleticook and I want to talk talk about something very different the one of the most exciting things on our roadmap is a new kind of subnet a subnet that is not based on the evm in fact it's not based on any VM at all but it's the subnet that incorporates a large language model inside so those of you who have heard of chat GPT think of chat GPT running in every validator what does this allow you to do it allows you to write smart contracts in our natural languages so you can write something like this transaction defines a new Lending Service that that accepts payments in two different coins and allows people to borrow against one collateral using the other and you write this in English or Thai or Chinese or what have you any language that the llm understands there is absolutely no hexadecimal numbers no weird acronyms no strange crypto gobbledygook it's just hardcore working application of AI to blockchains and I'm supremely excited about this because I can now write this example that I've always used was always the fact that with blockchains I can do things that my bank won't let me do what does my bank let me do it allows me to write a check and then what do blockchains do today they allow us to write glorified checks but it's very difficult to use them and now I can write something like I'd like to donate to your your movie in English or whatever other language I'd like to donate five thousand dollars to your movie assuming you can meet your funding requirement of five million dollars otherwise the payment reverts back to me on this date this is something I just write and ASCII in text and then the validators interpret it the same way a trustee would interpret a well-written contract in English and I'm really excited about this I mean as a researcher in blockchain you realize how dangerous this is right absolutely and this is like me being the most excited person about Ai and blockchain possible I had a panel about this in the morning yeah that this is the like this is giving a grenade to everyone pretty much in a way that like unexpected consequences are just gonna explode absolutely we're going to start with a non-value bearing net and and I cannot wait to see what people do I do expect really you you have a very good point so I do expect there to evolve a series of layered prompts that people build on so that once a proper person who understands what they're doing has come up with the right Preamble then people build on that and expand it will people lose money because of badly worded badly specified contracts absolutely that's why we start out with a non-value-bearing network I mean right now we already have like you know with various sizes ekml or optimistic stuff this type of things right people already playing with this and so far I mean the only use case that like people are exploring mostly just yield optimization but kind of beyond that I think what I'm excited about is you know how do we do dial coordination with this and I think like there you still need a lot of oversight of people on kind of decisions before it's executed and so I think like just saying hey I'm going to send a piece of text and it's going to execute and run it's just like kind of I would say extremely oversimplifying the you know what are the other pieces that needs to go into making this truly work in like real use cases that's exactly what we need to do we need to come up with things that anyone can use that anybody could just wield at their at their disposal and and write in their own natural language not necessarily having to rely on complicated bytecodes hexadecimal stuff or various different complicated cryptological schemes are there dangers absolutely I am not one to play them down so there are lots and lots of dangerous pitfalls when you start using this who will Who will thrive in this I suspect a different kind of person than the smart contract programmers of today I suspect lawyers will actually be very very good at specifying smart contracts in this new natural language format are there pitfall absolutely lots and lots of pitfalls in fact when I actually introduced this idea what the very first slide not you know the very first slide said there will be a lot of money lost beware but but it's definitely worth exploring if it's if it's a big enough Vision then we must necessarily explore it okay so good you were criticizing me for asking a roadmap question so I will I will take that and ask uh more application facing question what is today explain in very simple language what is the biggest application on your chain what does it do loyalty payments so the biggest application on near is the biggest application web3 right now which is Kai Ching which is a Singaporean company and they're doing loyalty and payments and they choose near of a stripe because we're cheaper faster like you can do pretty much delivery of the payments like instantly instead of waiting for two weeks for in stripe case and you know a bunch of use cases kind of after that are in a very similar way and be that in gaming Fitness Etc they're all around this one this one loyalty this one all right well damn tight hook uh I think million active users weekly actors so I'm going to charge you for that um I think for us there's so many to your point we think about I know I'm trying to think of one I mean one of the more interesting ones for us that takes all this to um all the topics that we talked about and actually brings it to life is an application called shingari they started off as a tick tock competitor in India because Tick Tock was facing its challenges and this this team built out an amazing product that actually thinks about creators in new ways in new models that social uh platforms today would not necessarily be able to compete with you can award uh users directly through Loot and creators directly and so we think that's a completely uh big that's a big shift from the way ad models have existed today loot exists as a digital asset user accounts are wallets there are nfts associated within the application and all of these are completely abstracted away from the end user millions of people are using this application they have 45 million monthly active users that's amazing they were using they were building on a protocol previous to Aptos and we're running into reliability issues they found out what Aptos was doing and how move was a differentiating factor and that gave them the confidence to actually go and actually scale their web 3 business and bring those users on chain they were able to get two million users on chain in two years on this previous protocol within uh integrating Aptos within two weeks they were able to migrate two million users onto Aptos in two weeks and so you know we just love that there's you know to Evan's point you know there's all this fancy stuff that we can all talk about but when you want millions of users actually using these applications you need to provide a seamless interface and infrastructure that actually works and we're excited for chingari to take advantage of that great um for us as you can tell we've been live for four months now so we're very early in the space the biggest pivot error in focus for us has actually been gaming and that's actually in fact we had the most amount of transactions in a single day of any blockchain that's ever existed so we've built something that scale um on-chain gaming is an area we're very well invested in but there's a particular game 8192 that you can play I could play half the game I can transfer the rest of the game to a friend who can complete that and then whoever completes the game can get a can win a prize right so the idea of social based gaming with all game stay is stored on chain and you can actually have a mix where someone gains the ex is off chain and then some element of that is on chain so it brings in a whole new level of composability and gameplay that just doesn't exist that has never existed before yeah so um we have a lot of applications of course but I think the the one that uh the one that I actually recently looked at uh is uh our collaboration with SK Planet SK is obviously the Big South Korean conglomerate they have millions and millions of users and hundreds of thousands of merchants and they recently launched the kycaml subnet for that set of users where the users can can go and use their loyalty points with at any of the merchants to do payments Etc it's a very good example of a region-specific jurisdiction specific Network that has its own rules that are separate from the main Network our Defy is completely shielded from this our games Take Along at their own speed and they don't impact this network nor does this network impact them and that that performance isolation that failure isolation is is one of the big selling points of the multi multi-chain idea so what I heard from most of you guys was that the big application on your chain is some kind of web 2.5 you know web 2 basically integrating some kind of thing if I recall you know called a year and a half ago the only thing anybody cared about was D5 the only thing anybody cared about was these real crypto native like kind of Hardcore dgn type applications and it seems like now we're somewhat migrating away from that how do you think as you're in Atlanta one thinking about who you want to attract to your ecosystem and the relative value of these different kinds of applications has the value of D5 or these more crypto native things changed over the last couple years I mean since you were since you were last to go and you're the most uh mature blockchain with respect to the the D5 ecosystem that's been present on you guys how do you think about that for for Avalanche so this is my take on this there are lots and lots of exciting verticals out there there's the gaming vertical right that there's a lot of demand for high-speed blockchains and there are of course a lot of false starts that a lot of companies have done in that space and they're coming to us looking for a fast solution there is of course the Loyalty space there's a whole bunch of others uh that one could go through and D5 is the sort of the hardcore at the at the bottom of it all now how do I view this um any any chain in my opinion any chain that gets out of the gate I'm giving ideas to my competitors here but here is my thing any chain that gets out of the gate and says we're going to do X or Y or Z for any X or Y or Z is destined to fail if you have a truly winning solution it should be good at everything is defy as not as important as it used to be that's true there are less users today than there were during the bull market but D5 is a Cornerstone and if you're good at it you should always have a strong vibrant defy core and and the types of things that we that when I talk to other people the types of things that get them excited the types of things that get me excited are those things that they cannot do with their existing institutions and to be able to say here I can do a lending process within five minutes or in fact within two minutes uh just mostly clicking around instead of you know have to go to the bank and do a borrow against your assets in a bank which takes multiple days is a huge winning proposition so it's something that is always going to be near and dear to our heart and if they're going to be a gazillion assets on chain worth trillions of dollars you need to have the rails for those assets to be traded easily across in the entire world yeah any how do you how do you think about it so um three is a high highest growing um defy ecosystem outside of evm and that's of the work that we've been focusing on I think Defy is actually important to have a healthy D5 ecosystem my only concern about D5 to a large extent is I always argue that it's mostly people gambling against each other it's a very small Market not a lot of real human people are actually trading there um this thing only starts to matter when you actually have scale and I imagine if I bring in 30 million game players into an ecosystem and they need to swap the in-game token for an actual um usdc or for some other local currency that's when I think they've sold defy as the products when really to me it's part of the infrastructure it's a part of it's a component you utilize to actually meet a need rather than being the actual product itself so I think from our perspective We Believe Defy is here to stay we think it's only going to continually grow but I think right now is really just commonplace for the Traders right it's not something that retailers can actually the retail Market can get a little bit a lot of benefit out of you know they'll draw the trade when they charge swab account or trade in a coinbase account for now until you can all offer a much better benefit Beyond just um you know yield farming I I find it hard for that space to grow significantly you know I I agree but I also think that um Defy is a little underrated and doesn't get the respect that it deserves right Financial systems have been carved off for the select few and I think what D5 did is really open up Financial access I think I mean try to describe this a little bit but if you are living in a different part of the world where you don't have access to a dollar now you do through stable coins you can now take that dollar and implement it in and put it to work somewhere now where they put it to work you know I don't know right right and so yeah and but I do think there are institution uh grade D5 projects that are out there they've done an amazing job sushi is one of those that will be launching on Aptos but there's so many more we're just at the the sort of the Tipping Point here um you know I was at BlackRock where we were thinking about how do you bring interoperability across different markets across the world and if you look at exchanges today they operate in silos and you know subnets of sorts but I think you know just coming out of some of our our trips in Asia side chains and subnets are actually looked at uh looked at as you're creating the same environment the same siled environment open Financial systems actually need interoperability with each other so we actually disagree with the subnet approach it doesn't necessarily make sense because you're just creating another environment where only people can stay together together you did nothing right so if we actually want to open up access to financial systems you need everyone to play friendly Franklin templeton's SEC filing just went live they're launching a million dollar money market fund on aptos's mainnet permissionless not some side chain because they realize they don't need a side chain they can do it everything that they wanted directly on the mainnet and we think that's something that's very powerful and allows for again inclusive participation in these Financial systems let's let go and respond to that yeah correspond to this so the beauty of subnets is that they interoperate to the extent that they are allowed to so uh depending on the Creator's wishes you just thought you just said that they don't interact with anybody could you not not okay let me finish right now so if you want to have a private permission deployment you could easily do that if you wanted to have a private permission deployment you could easily have that with subnets so all of those use cases that we are used to from years past that work uh just naturally on the subnet but if you want to have a subnet dedicated to the Singaporean users or to South Korean users or whatever else and they want to transfer funds we provide for example the work messaging uh the trustless messaging Primitives to allow assets to be transferred from one to the other the side the site net idea of the side chain idea is different so those people whose idea of blockchains are rooted in two years ago or five years ago will get way late and will get confused about what it is that we offer so this is a fully interoperable system that allows people to build networks that respect jurisdictional boundaries if you don't want to use them that's great we still have the world's fastest consensus Network so you can always go to the C chain and use that but I'm not here unlike most other people waving some Banner that says we must all use the same chain we must all abandon the dollar and use avex no to the contrary I'm saying we have built the system that can interoperate and integrate itself into the system that we have it I'm not some crazy libertarian who's going to say we must bring down all all countries just so that my pet Network that has only a single chain can then can then work on it all of these single chain networks all it takes is one game and then suddenly their fees go Sky High and if you look at the subnet based systems multi-chain networks it's a completely different beast and I do suggest you take a look at what we've actually built argument I'm sorry I think it's a it's a hiding away of of the actual inherent failure of the system to scale right your system doesn't scale you shot into 20 000 databases that's fine it's been done many times Oracle have done it VMware have done it every other company has done it it's fully understood our blockchain our thesis on this is you build a scalable layer one and it scales horizontally Google can build a scalable infrastructure so can miss them I think we've taken the learnings there of real systems Engineers who have done this for decades and we've applied that to web 3. so the idea of slight change if someone wants a private Network actually by the way we work with some of the largest institutions in the world they've not asked for a private Network they've actually asked for a permission Network where you can maybe have rules and contracts on engagement that can be done on public networks so I hear what it means saying I don't I actually disagree I think it's a great way to sell a cloud service a great way to sell you know a fragmented system but I don't believe it's actually technologically moving okay so I the last word you have 10 seconds go so subnets are not a scalability solution I agree with that so instead it's the Legal Foundation that requires us to uh to allow us that allows us to uh to uh to support different legal requirements for different user bases and if you don't understand that then you don't understand how our financial system works sure okay Ilia I'm gonna give you the last word I think just to change kind of the the aspect here we should still think about users right there there's different types of users who want to participate in in kind of this economy and there is hundreds you know 100 plus million people who are using centralized exchanges and not using D5 the D5 the biggest used app is like I think Stargate which is all just probably Bots farming airdrop but the kind of the idea here is that we actually need applications that can match experience and you know Financial tooling of the the centralized Exchange this and you know we're only just getting them and so like to your point about like why everybody was focused on D5 it was a casino everybody was excited about this but we're getting now to experiences right that are able to be used by millions of people able to onboard them able to provide so like orderly Network for example provides a trading experience that matches centralized exchange experience because they're running the order book in kind of as almost as a roll-up outside of the chain and then settle and have the kind of you know one second settlement time which no centralized exchanges can match right so but like this is types of products we actually need to get to Market and provide it to Consumers because they don't want to spend all their time figuring out all of this kind of complexity of the D5 ecosystem like that is more for Bots and you know potentially like professional traders to do that and so now that we're getting there I think we'll see a lot more usage coming from this but again it's more from a like customer consumer onboarding decided not from the you know subnets or bar chains or shards or whatever like we call them all different things right but like at the end it's like it's a way to run stuff in parallel like how exactly it's done is you know and you you can permission smart contracts like you can permission uh specific things but like at the end users don't care that's the exact thing right what they care about is they can go into some front end they can onboard and they can use stuff and they want to use compatibility that blockchain can provide that you can go to any other place and you bring your assets with you you bring your data with you you have your social media you have your kind of interactions and that's kind of the missing piece that I think we're getting now and this stuff is starting to work that I think like one thing to remember is although it you know it is bear market and people kind of feeling this stuff is starting to work we have things actually working in production this is completely different from like 1819 when we were started like at least we were starting where you know none of this worked there was like five users of unit swap now like these things are working the experience is good you know we have really like popular starting to use this so I'm just going to finish on that it's a beautiful note to end on I will say I'm surprised how long it took for this to get heated but I'm glad I'm glad it did get there in the end let's please give a hand for our spirited panelists and for a wonderful conversation