How Web3 Will Revolutionize the Gaming Industry - TOKEN2049 London 2022

hey everyone um wow what a 24 hours it's been as I'm sure pretty much everyone coming up to the stage has both said and is going to say today um we're going to be talking about something slightly different to what's been discussed so far I'm going to be talking about the wonderful world of gaming in particular how web 3 gaming is going to at least in our minds revolutionize the gaming industry we've got some excellent panelists uh here that I've got the pleasure to talk alongside we've got yatsu who is the co-founder and chairman over at anamoka for any of you that aren't familiar with animoka they are investors but also operators 380 active Investments um and most notably the owners of the sandbox they've invested in a whole host of amazing projects like Open Sea Dapper Labs axi Infinity Etc we've got Sebastian beauge he is the CEO and co-founder over at the sandbox uh the sandbox is kind of one of the the leaders in the open metaverse right now at the platform level they have over four million users with wallets um inside their their platform 22 000 unique landovers landowners as well and then last but not least of course Jamie Burke the founder and CEO at outlier Ventures they're the number one by volume web 3 accelerator and the top three kind of web3 investors globally and myself I'm the chief marketing officer over at decentral games we are a game five project we're built inside decentraland account for around about 60 of all of decentraland traffic today which despite popular belief is more than 38 users uh so so what I what I what I thought we would kind of just begin with and set the scene before we get into some some questions is just a few stats around the the web3 gaming space today for for any of you that aren't as familiar with web3 gaming so in August of 2022 what we saw according to DAP radar at least around 850 000 um web 3 gaming unique active wallets were observed that's slightly down from near the end of last year where we had this enormous kind of bull cycle and what was born out of that I think was what has been referred to as like playing an or play to earn whichever stage in the cycle you've been at 4.2 billion dollars which I think is an incredible statistic which is the total trading volume um all-time nft sales volume of axi infinity which is not only the largest of any gaming project but any nft project of all time um and that's across 2.2 million individual Traders then when we kind of take a little look at okay the current gaming space today it was an excellent study uh that was recently published at the end of July from Coda and uh they they did a sample of around about 7 000 traditional Gamers uh and in that what they found was that 52 of those uh surveyed were not familiar with any kind of web3 terminology and only three percent of those Gamers actually had ever owned an nft so while we have started to see some really great traction already in like the web 3 space it's fair to say to not overuse a cliche we're still early and uh I thought I would kick things off by addressing the elephant in the room the FDX situation which I think has been well covered so far but I've kind of put to the rest of the panel do you think this impacts the the gaming space What are the implications outside of just uh kind of within the the defined C5 space right now how yeah I'll put this to you to begin with to kick us off right so um thank you it's a great pleasure to be here so the first thing I would just want to add on your statistic that there's a lot more that are sort of going into the web 3 gaming space where they actually have custodial wallets and so that is not captured by dab radar so for instance in one case uh for instance one of our portfolio companies um sort of a gamy has over 2.2 million wallets for instance but because it's custodial it's not actually seen right in the in the platform platforms and most of the onboarding that will happen basically from let's call it the traditional Gamers to the web 3 gamers are probably going to happen in this manner in the first first phase because they're not comfortable with setting up with metamask you'll understand how that goes so there's that aspect and obviously the operator doesn't cover it so the numbers are actually a little greater than what it is but you know but back to the cliche we are still early in terms of macro I mean obviously what's happened in the last 24 hours is nothing short of edible but I think again you know the the measurement this is the same thing when people talk about oh there's so few people who are sort of you know active in blockchain games or in nft trading for instance the majority of people today actually use the nfts for utility right in the same way that you don't buy a car or a pair of shoes to sell tomorrow but last year a lot of the activity was more speculative today if you look at it typically five or maybe less than ten percent of the collections are actually up for for trade and sale right and and you can't measure the health of an entire industry based exactly what's happening in Wall Street right right but that's kind of a little bit how the original crypto people will look at it because that's the measure of of what they look at now gaming macro it's still a growing industry in fact it's a 200 plus billion dollar industry as a whole has nothing to do with crypto has nothing to do with what's happening you know with FTX and binance and everything else that's the fundamental it's bigger than music it's bigger than music and film combined as an industry typically in research gaming always increases in terms of activity right and so that's really the pie that web3 gaming is about which is you know it will accelerate and grow because of property rights but as of Base you still have you know 200 billion dollars as an industry to tap into and maybe we can talk later about the value shift because what web3 really does is transfer that 200 billion dollars of value into the communities more so than into the central platforms like apple Google and advertising networks and that's the real value shift so how do we think this is going to impact things like consumer confidence uh Jamie said I'll put to either of you to think about this in the context of FTX as well yeah well I mean I don't want to labor the point but obviously um everyone thinks about what's happening now with FTX in the context of contagion and liquidity and how that kind of Cascades down and we're going to see how that plays out it's not going to be pretty um but actually it's contagion from a reputational perspective as well so there is already a lot of skepticism within gaming generally either from Gamers or gaming Studios or whatever it may be um and you know this doesn't doesn't help that right it kind of feeds into that narrative that somehow this is all just about the worst attributes of Wall Street now we know that's not true but it's not it's not helpful so I think that's that's a fact but again as as yet said you know why should why should what's going on in The Wider kind of secondary market for crypto effect gaming is really what we're talking about is gaming and the evolution of gaming and the answer is it shouldn't and these guys are probably better worse than me to say what happens in a global recession with gaming um they're bullish on that outcome as a digital consumable I'm inclined to believe them what I would say is that I would imagine if you're if you are going to be spending more or at least the same on digital consumption in a recession you're probably going to be looking for value and so where previously you might have been okay with pure consumption now actually the idea that you might be able to retain some value and potentially grow value might become more appealing but we'll see great well let's let's dig a bit into the adoption piece and because we're talking a lot here about you know how is this going to impact consumer confidence like uh the the total scale that we can reach within the regular traditional gaming space there's there's quite a Chasm to cross still today for us to truly reach the kind of scale of the traditional gaming space What do you what do you see and I'll I'll put this to you initially uh Sebastian first what do you see as some of the biggest adoption hurdles that we face in targeting these kind of non-cryptonative individuals these gamers and bringing them in and how do we begin solving some of those in the short to medium term so well I think like it's a good segue here and I beg to differ a little bit from the consumer perspective they don't really look at like what the market is doing and price and so on they just look at what is a fun game I can engage with and whether there is now like an idea benefit of true digital ownership so I can grow and keep the value and potentially sell my asset which I couldn't do before and what we're seeing is basically like you need to have great fun product to engage that's always the entry point you need to develop like gameplay into those products that will retain the users and you need to have like a good reason to drive the users in initially so that's what we've been doing essentially with sandbox by bringing over 400 Brands already and I think just close the Alpha season 3 which has been our most successful event to date we've had the best engagement which week ever even measuring pre FTX but also during all the so-called crypto winter we see like people like to come to stay over an hour half an hour to an hour into all those experience to explore a different kind of gameplay and I want to also touch down about like uh we're talking about gaming industry but more specifically in our case the metaverse goes much Beyond gaming it touched like all form of entertainment into music into fashion into like virtual shows virtual concerts arts and so on so it's even appealed to a broader audience and what the metaverse and sandbox as the capability too is to attract audience beyond the existing Market of gamer to grow that overall Market that yeah described as a 200 billion dollar to reach his next phase and in the market which is in a recession people like are looking for like different ways to entertain themselves if they cannot like spend any more on traveling and so on and virtual words with an avatar is a great way to connect with other to our various activities and it's even better if like their activities can generate rewards nfts that are actually asset they can own cell transfer so overall I'm very confident that the gaming industry and the metaverse in general will be very resilient or even like keep growing in the current market condition as long as we keep providing very entertaining experience which we do by bringing all those brands in fashion in gaming we open Gucci we open a kunagero football player we are Warner Music one of the most popular experience Walking Dead Care Bear Smurf all of those are actually appealing to users who are not familiar with web free technology or tokens and yet are stepping in for the value out of like social interaction and fun well I'll take in and I'll come to you in a second yeah because I want to just touch in a little bit that you mentioned there because I think a common kind of I guess mainstream news criticism and I think that there is a lot of uh importance to this is you know there is a general kind of aversion from the traditional Gaming Community to the nfts and things like this so how do we maybe I can jump on that like I'm the president of the blockchain game Alliance as well it's been close to three years that our mission is to show like how blockchain technology can benefit the video game industry sorry Jamie but I beg to differ like this on one side a certain optic from the press that tend to say like the video game industry and the players don't like nft that's not at all what I see every time I go into a gaming conference like the number of members from the BGA has grown to 450 while it was maybe 200 earlier this year more and more developers are looking at the technology because they want to get away from the control of certain distribution platform and Empower their community and create collectively with them share the value with them and develop new gameplays thanks to that technology energy so I think overall we have to separate what press tend to say because like it's a good click bait on the title and the reality of the market and people getting to to play with uh like fun experience a token and develop yeah yeah I mean I I just I want to push on that right because as you know I'm part of the blockchain gaming Alliance yep big advocating space but I do think we need to accept that there is a big job to do and I know you're aware of that right so um I think the reality is not necessarily specific to gaming but there is a significant part of the global population that is resistant to crypto and web 3 at all right and therefore its introduction into gaming is seen as some kind of Corruption of gaming Soul we know that's not true we know that when it's framed in the right way um things like digital property rights can be understood and of course you know we we occasionally lose control of the narrative but there are pushbacks you see with Discord you see with steam you know there are significant pushbacks from users and I don't I don't think we can pretend that's not there it is significant what would you have to sound like so first of all uh while it's true that certain communities are against nfts it's a generally a western narrative and that's really important to understand um so the the US game Publishers for instance like EA Activision whatever before we're really interested in it and now our full skill Retreat on nfts because their audiences don't like it but that has more to do with what Americans for instance think about gaming than what happens in Asia I think this has to do with the macro feeling around crypto generally things like what happened with FTX isn't helpful but it comes down to this whole thing that you know like for instance youth in America is now generally more socialist leaning than capitalist for instance that was something that a decade ago would have been Unthinkable for instance right so this is just the trend um you know I say this sometimes but you know the American dream is Alive and Well in Asia right you know people in Vietnam and in Philippines teens and in Korea and whatever are sort of you know building for businesses have hope have opportunity you know they believe capitalism works for them that they've seen for the last 20 30 years that capitalism has given them benefits democracy is relatively young in these places capitalism and property rights is a phenomena that has brought broadly wealth even if there's inequity whereas in America it's not the case so which is why for instance in Japan the Prime Minister kashidasan has made web 3 in the mediverse National agenda for instance right Hong Kong has most recently come out and basically said not only virtual asset policy allowing for retail activity but also fully embracing nfts where the treasury Minister comes out in a in a puncture right I mean so so it's a completely different narrative but you know from a western perspective you don't see it but actually if you're in Asia which is the majority of the gaming population right you can you can see basically that it's driving that sort of growth and so I think that in the interim as we've seen with free-to-play gaming we'll see more adoption coming from Asia but then of course we can never count out the US right I mean they're not necessarily the innovators in free to play if you think about it however they're you know talented they were able to see lots of stuff Europe will quickly catch up so I think of it as a natural Trend um Korean game companies all the big Korean companies are all talking about web3 you know whether it's Craft on the people behind pubg whether it's Nexon whether it's net Market or any Square Enix right uhumi right so exactly all the big Asian companies are all embracing the space right so but there's an additional Dynamic which is the opportunity normally when it comes to Tech advances gaming included it's a war between the US and China yeah right so China normally through tencent is a dominant gaming player us with all their players Activision you know whatever but in the US those players have been quasi-disqualified for the time being because of the audiences which is a different kind of dilemma and because of what's happening in China none of the big Chinese incumbents can enter that space which actually a great time for new players to enter in this market and we see this today Vietnam has a game five Revolution that's going on for instance I mean this idea that Philippines and and Vietnam would actually receive foreign overseas Investments at unicorn valuations for gaming companies would have been again Unthinkable right right so this this sort of really sort of I think creates a different flow of opportunity that is available for anyone who enters a web 3 gaming space and I think maybe just kind of closer from the point I think that when you think of gaming more broadly than just gaming you think of gaming is a social media really yes most games now multiplayer games you're going there to socialize yeah um I think when you see it in that context um digital property rights owning Things become much more relevant right um represent how you represent yourself your avatar your wearables you know there's a much less resistance for example in fashion in the fashion industry yeah almost zero existence actually they're all piling in and they're piling in often in the context of gaming um but they're thinking about it in a in a different what well yeah keep in mind that's sorry go ahead okay I think there's a lot that we can pull apart in this but I think one of the things that we want to to touch on right is the the web 3 gaming space still in its infancy has already been through several pretty substantial narrative shifts we've seen some like breakout success in terms of adoption near the end of last year and I think one of the big kind of waves uh that certainly was an enormous tool for bootstrapping player liquidity was and bringing new users in was Financial incentives and they they still play a big role in the the current gaming space whether that be through the guise of um earning like fungible tokens or owning Assets in digital property rights but my question here is um probably the biggest kind of collapses or or at least projects that have really kind of ground to a whole where they've seen kind of either this hyperinflation in their game token or we've seen real challenges in scalability I want to put all of you here is there a place for these Financial incentives in web3 gaming in the long term time Horizon and how do we balance this with scalability whilst remaining and keeping some of these incentives in place so Seth why don't you kick I can start so so basically I was saying like keep in mind that we haven't found like what's the exact successful model into like web free gaming like there's still a lot of experimentation going on and some of the experimentation I've been like going viral faster than other thanks to the network effect because of token ownership and because of financial incentive we have um so so the industry in general is launching values mechanics testing on seeing what takes what doesn't takes and we're seeing on a day-to-day like new games come up like new elements like step one appeared suddenly metaverse now on one way on the long run like you have to run both like a great product that is fun and has all the core mechanic of like a core Loop and meta gameplay that keep people entertained with live Ops and retention on the other side now you need to manage a treasury and a whole economy beside game designer are not necessarily economists so they are learning and ultimately yes it cannot be a zero-sum game regarding the token incentive so you have to think uh the token economics with like the ability of having external influx of a token that doesn't come only from the same Community or the growth of user to be sustainable on the long term that means like it's much better to think from the approach of like game as a platform more than game as like destination final destiny Nation for themselves so one thing also to add to that is that I think thinking of terms of financial incentives has a little bit sort of obscure the actual Narrative of what game web3 gaming is because really what web3 gaming does is it opens up the financial system of the game it doesn't necessarily the financial incentive comes from the fact that the game therefore becomes capitalist yes which means that people can participate in a manner that could be incentives but doesn't have to be so for instance what happened with axi and you know with now what they call play and earn it came from ownership it wasn't that the game was designed to be a play and a play to earn game it was that the fact that you had property ownership that then allowed a third party like ygg to come in and basically create a yield system but again it had nothing to do with actually in and of itself it had something to do with a third party that then created a capitalist incentive to bring that to the system one of the classic things that gamers in the west would argue about I don't want my game to be heavily financified right they accept that you're already being heavily financed you just don't know right you don't know for instance that this industry makes 200 billion dollars off your time you also don't know that roughly 70 of that value goes straight into the ad networks like Google and apple and Facebook for instance of which that and then on top of that 30 of all of whatever gross they make then goes into the platform as distribution fees which you're being passively monetized in in this exactly right exactly and and and so because they don't know this they think oh this is no big deal but when you open up a financial system when the transparency comes around and when you see wait where does it all the value go it allows for third-party intermediaries to come in and say I can make this more efficient so for instance this trend that we're seeing where people are basically giving free nfts as a way to attract users to play a game really what they're doing is they're basically turning the advertising model upside down yeah because in the classic advertising model I would spend 50 to 100 maybe per user or something like that per paid user to Apple and Facebook right how much of that money which by the way this year is forecasted to be over 110 billion dollars in app installs right how much of that money Finds Its way back to the gaming industry close to zero right they don't invest in games they don't give back to the players players don't get sort of you know free free credit for you know basically spending lots of time on the App Store Right none of that so it's a it's the most highly extractive tax that is out there but when you give out nfts for free maybe some of them sell but you know how much of the money that the player receives might come back into the ecosystem or maybe even more which is what we've seen with things like fandom galaxies and that's a revolution so we're taking the value of an ecosystem that is worth two and a billion and growing and redistributing the value appropriately to the players in the ecosystem in a much more healthy fashion that's a narrative of web 3 gaming but because there's money involved and because Financial awareness and financial knowledge across most of the world which includes Gamers because Gamers represent most people on the Internet is low right and so they don't understand how Financial systems work they don't have portfolios they don't understand anything about yield so for them this whole just becomes strange and funny and you know might feel like a Ponzi scheme when there is already inherent value in the ecosystem or Jamie you you mentioned earlier right like a lot of people don't necessarily want kind of uh in the traditional game spaces at least some foundedness to the fact that people don't want to financialize gaming so I guess anything they don't want is just a resistance to it right um because as you said they don't necessarily understand that that's already happening it's obfuscated an industry level intentionally obviously of course right yeah um and look the reality is designing game economies is not new it's been around for as long as Gaming's been around um the difference now is that we are designing token economies economic systems in a totally permissionless environment it's totally free market fundamentalism and that's not been battle tested it's an experiment you know so we've got um we've got a token design team we'll work with 200 startups this year the large majority of those will work on designing a token economy with for most Founders that is highly New Concept what do you mean I've got to understand the basics of economics look at how well economists forecast what's happening in the macro environment not very well so how the hell do you expect a Founder to be able to design the perfect digital economy it's not going to happen the point is it will happen through experimentation the problem is is that and said you alluded to it early which I agree with when something's a success the media attention wraps around it because number goes up and then number goes up more because of the attention and then it can fundamentally break that that system the economic load that that system handles it's too immature to to kind of handle um and then and then of course you get a collapse and the collapse is bigger because of the attention it got and so it's this really perverse system and and by the way that's not going to go away but what's going to happen is through experimentation we're going to learn um you know hopefully the media attention evolves and matures and we as an industry get better at articulating what is important and isn't important in that but coming back to the main point ultimately web3 in any context is a financial Revolution it is about financial inclusion and the key thing for me in the context of gaming is digital property rights there's a Cornerstone of building effectively capitalistic systems um and as we know capitalist systems have their pros and their cons but they're generally net positive yeah and I think to add sort of with digital property rights you actually then have digital Freedom right the ability to freedom to transact and for third parties to sort of affect these Network effects exactly they have sovereignty and I think for gamers inherently actually they do want that but they don't necessarily understand it in the same sense that they don't fully understand how the Democratic process works either it's ought to work right but actually understanding the intricacies around it is something that most people don't get but just to add on one point about sort of not having been battle tested the reason why sort of of let's call it Financial systems in gaming system and battle tested because they were always resisted by the incumbents if you remember a gold sort of gold and World of Warcraft for instance or skin trading with valve right these were begin becoming billion dollar businesses and what happened they're like we don't like that they shut it down they take away the rights and just evaporate a business which you know really if you think about it about 15 20 years ago was beginning to really pick up momentum right and even today you can find a black market just go to eBay and look for basically accounts and you can see people are selling their pubg accounts Apex accounts you know basically fortnite skins right they're all doing this already today except they're doing it in sort of a black market style yeah um all this will do is open it up in a manner where now we can really battle test it in a free Manner and actually experiment and there's a lot of economic history that we can fall back on as to what property rights has done in the physical world that we can basically look to build on in the digital version and look I would just say like the the problem statement for me that I think we're trying to optimize for in the context of gaming is that there is billions of dollars of digital wealth that might be the primary form of wealth for whole Generations that is not currently recognized by the existing Financial system you can't go into a bank and say I need a short-term loan I need to be able to pay off my tuition fees or whatever it is and I have this thing as collateral that's not possible you'll be laughed out the bank yeah and so for me if we can integrate that wealth we can create a system that recognizes that wealth as collateral as value where they can borrow and lend against it then you have true Financial inclusion that's the North Star for me in the context of Webster gaming maybe one thing like we put a lot of focus around like the financial aspect of gaming but to me like what also web free brings through digital ownership is like the notion like players like they own a wallet and you want those players to be able to cross across multiple game to track their history on chain through all the digital belongings they have they were able their equipment their achievement across many games and you want them to build like uh that value over time like their reputation that reputation can serve indeed like to take loan to financial to to to involve like Finance reputation system loans Etc uh for on those aspects but much more like it can truly revolutionize user acquisition it can revolutionize as well like the idea of like building an industry that's no longer fragmented or over like just two or three distribution platform but the each player each Community itself become the new uh way to onboard users is a new way to to carry the value across and more and that's something that's not been enough yet utilized I think by the video game industry that the metaverse is touching upon with interoperability standards but it's it's beyond the metaverse actually like avatars and topavity is one topic like there's much more potential behind and I would highly Engage The Gaming industry to look at this more essentially than just the financially maybe just to add because the open permissionless Nature is actually great for customer acquisition which is where again you know the majority of gaming profits goes to which is UA yeah and uh and for Indies that's one of the reasons why Indies are dying in basically the traditional gaming industry because they can't afford it anymore so that's actually great for them the ones who resisted are the incumbents because they have a formula in which they can make money through the walled Gardens they don't want to share their customers right and I think this is basically where you know when you think about Steam for instance Banning it for instance as an example one hand you could say oh it's you know the straw man is it's a scam but actually really it's very much about protecting their wall Garden 100 so I think with with about five six minutes left what I I want to kind of turn the screw a little bit on this especially around because I think for a lot of builders in the space and those running games user acquisition is front of mind and we have like some big hurdles I think touching on kind of the the piece that you mentioned there Sev around metaverse in particular and open metabastes and how we start to kind of remove some of these barriers that exist the wallet certainly feels like a bit of a big sticking point today for onboarding like some of the traditional Gamers that aren't already in web3 but what I want to explore a little bit is like how much we've talked a lot about uh kind of platforms and kind of different forms of technology one thing I don't hear enough about is the hardware and the role of Hardware in this when we look at like all of the various stages of different Evolutions in the gaming industry we saw the introduction of obviously console gaming all the way through to the smartphone and all of a sudden the kind of mobile gaming industry popped up it is Hardware going to be kind of the big unlock here or like for for kind of the mass adoption that we look at so what we've seen I can jump in like every new console launch as typically enlarge the gaming Market by attracting new audience because it essentially enable new gameplay like touch screen like a controller Optics 3D VR and so on I broke up but at the end of the day it's not about the hardware itself it's about like how we bring creativity and Innovation back and here for the first time we don't need to have a specific Hardware to introduce new game mechanics new ways to play and attract new audiences I believe like the blockchain technology and all the opening of both economic system but ownership governance and many other aspects that we don't yet know about but maybe will come up as we keep innovating is the real Revolution here that's become like that unlock the creativity a lot I mean I just want to build on that because coming back to the the title right how will web 3 revolutionize a gaming industry we've talked about the financial part we talked about sovereignty and control but actually for me one of the most exciting trends that we're seeing emerge through our accelerator now is how it can revolutionize the process of making games the creative process of making games and so if you look at Innovations around generative art at the moment with AI you know we're starting to see this convergence of Technologies where very quickly we will be able to firstly register individual game assets on a universal kind of Ledger of sorts a universal library that can be reused so if you create something once why shouldn't somebody else be able to reuse it people think about crypto and web 3 and Define the concepts of composability but composability is also true in terms of the creative production process so you create something it can be repurposed and reused that's going to dramatically cut down the time to create both a game AAA game but also a movie increasingly they're built in the same tools the same gaming engines now when you begin to combine that with uh generative AI all of a sudden it can be AI that can reassemble and combine these things and so and when every output of that AI algorithm is again an nft a digital asset all of a sudden we're going to have this Cambrian explosion of creative Innovation where the the kind of ability to produce AAA game grade content is going to be massively democratized and so outside of gaming if you look at things like Netflix or Disney plus I don't know about you I've got a young daughter I'm constantly going in there and trying to find something new it is impossible for the current production process this is Peppa Pig not enough no not for me no yeah but it's impossible for the existing kind of industrial based production process to keep up with the demand of streaming the same is going to be true with gaming and I believe this convergence of Technologies which is going to be enabled by digital assets is going to power that I think to add there is in in our portfolio over 100 of them are gaming companies yeah and I think everyone will recognize that to make a good quality game that people want to really play for fun take some time to make right it's not something that you can just do in three to six months if it feels more like a D5 protocol wrapped in some kind of gaming element right I mean sandbox really began its mission to build the sandbox as it is today in 2018 right it has what it has today not because of what they did six months ago but because of the work that began literally four years ago so much of the gaming investment really began in 2021 in terms of where all the other VCS came in as well right this particular year close to three I think three billion plus dollars basically went into web 3 gaming which is a tremendous amount of money right and many of the people who have entered the space in now are people who have built triple K triple triple A games basically in uh in in in previous sort of Life lives right so this will eventually evolve into we think in the next 12 to 18 months into sort of this incredible wave of extremely high quality games and what we've now seen also is that the people who want to play these games actually don't care about being on the platform right if you think look at axi they don't need to they side load they don't use Google Play for instance right if you think about our own experience with Phantom Galaxy there's always sandbox right they don't doesn't need to be on Steam I'll download it directly on the website right so this sort of vision of decentralizing the space were really the consumer and the ownership of the assets becomes the center of the experience actually is a way in which we remove our dependency on the platforms it's better for the consumer and that's why we also think that hundreds of millions of users in the gaming world will onboard in the near term as in say you know 18 24 months because of all of this great content that will come out in the in the midterm well I think it's an incredibly exciting time to be in the gaming space we are unfortunately out of time today uh thank you for all of the great discussion we've had and I'm sure many of us will be hanging around today if anyone has any questions thanks everyone [Applause]