Scaling DeFi Towards Mass Adoption - TOKEN2049 Singapore

we actually have very interesting panelists with us I think it's going to be a really interesting topic not only just talking about the future and you know how difficult scale but I think it's a really good time to you know take a step back and just you know re recap a bit right I think we've gone through a lot of you know different narratives different Cycles in DFI so without further Ado let's get started with um stani as a Founder CEO of Ave how would you you know think back of like the past D5 cycle right like what triggered that grows and how would you recap the whole defy movement yeah it's it's it's it's definitely been um quite interesting like a growth cycle for the past uh couple of years and and just to give background so I um I came to the space in in late 2016 and uh pretty much in 2016 16 there was probably one decentralized exchange etra Delta um and there wasn't that much of a liquidity there either so um end of 16 and and uh during uh 2017 we we saw a lot of um actual like Financial applications being built uh on ethereum um and this was kind of like my own personal Journey where I started to actually experiment um with one of the first uh proof of Concepts um that we built um Ave so that was called it land if there's any ogs you might actually remember uh but what was interesting back then is that it was more of kind of like a single application or so-called daps these interest applications being built and slowly uh I think some of these applications became more serious and so a lot of uh kind of like uh I would say financial inefficiencies and we saw like poor liquidity models and you started to see like more of like a ecosystem uh initiative and you had this idea of uh composibility where actually you could um go to one particular Market uh buy an asset and sell in another market and even actually if you don't have uh the funds to to buy the asset you can actually take a flash loan from let's say Ave protocol and go buy in units hop and sell in in some other uh market so like you started to see that actually because you have this um kind of like a um I would say like a computer running on ethereum and with the smart contracts you could actually create a lot of composable applications and this was very new thing in in finance because I come from a background where I used to build fintech applications and it's all about you know getting an API key from one place and another place and you don't have this programmability and network effect and I think like when Once the developers started to see like the upside of what you can actually do you started to see actually composable applications you started to see yield um and and then you start you saw the uh D5 summer when everything was basically built and there was like a disgrace with liquidity Mining and giving the ownership of these uh protocols that many of the communities were built to the uh Community itself and I think that was kind of like the the the biggest cycle for uh D5 and then you started to see like the cross chain movements um as well so I think I I think I'm not the best person to explain markets here but um you know I think D5 is a technology uh is something that has proven itself and is is here to um as a technology uh stay with us I think yeah talking about Market I think FG e um has a lot of uh you know time and virtual expertise in that area can you touch a bit more on you know from the past and to the present how do you see the whole you know Market making business you know has evolved with DFI yeah it's been in it's been an interesting Journey for us because yeah we started being present and defied in around 2019 starting with new idx and initially basically like this is the way is available creative provision worked and defy was yeah people tried to reproduce Central order Central order book models which didn't really work in really high fee environments so basically what you saw is that like exchanges like kyber people had to pay gas to submit bits and offers and it clearly didn't work for market makers and I think that basically kind of led to further experimentation and that led to UNI swap uh appearing for example and being quite successful with amm model and then afterwards uh basically defy aggregators like one inch or much uh kind of got good built on top and then with like Altus we we got kind of like we circled back to Central Auto model as well and so as a market maker we effectively started with sent a lot a book with divide ax then we started providing and taking liquidity in uni swap then we started providing liquidity on aggregators and basically as a market maker in D5 you have to do all three and it's it's been an interesting Journey it's like it's very not clear like which of those three models will be successful I personally think probably RFQ will be the way to go ultimately but yeah we'll see yeah I think um Eric also spends a lot of time researching the space for sure right so I think the the interesting question would be before you know do you find Summer came about were there any trends that you researched about or were there any things that you think oh would trigger you know this craze of liquidity mining or you farming back in the days yeah so I think um there was always a tremendous opportunity for D5 to emerge just from the the permissionlessness nature of being able to build smart contracts in ethereum so I was when D5 when I first saw the things that um would enable D5 I was working at a traditional Finance firm so we would ship uh traditional matching engines and clearing systems and just seeing like how quickly you can get a product up and running on D fights completely obvious to me that instead of re-architecting the entirety of traditional Finance being able to in as fast as you can code you can deploy on ethereum it's just obvious to me that that is going to be a much faster runner and much better platform for Innovation but if you ask me like honestly what did it what kick kicked it off well in Bitcoin what kicked Bitcoin off was the Silk Road buying drugs on the internet in a much similar way um you know the on uniswap the centralized exchange the most liquid the most traded token initially was hex which is you know kind of a Ponzi scheme like so initially I thought we had these like very aggressive yield farming strategies where people um are just using the tools in order to accrue tokens so the the usage was just for people that are trying to make money basically by just using and accumulating those tokens and then we had a bunch of food tokens like yam so in the beginning you know it wasn't super serious but you kind of need those types of you know something that appeals to the human nature of just wanting to get in and accumulate a bunch of tokens quickly in some way right yeah yeah I think um a lot of times you know people in general uh know more about the building side no more about the market side I think the very interesting side is the legal side for sure in which a lot of times it's like a black box uh from from you know everyone else even in people in the space right so so Marvin working at Uni swap as a chief legal officer can you share a bit more of you know how especially in the US as well but like in general you know how the legal and religiously Asian you know the whole Space has moved back in the days when DFI is you know really small right until now it's it's a lot of news going on on what's uh the new regulations coming out great so um for a long time I've been a lawyer with involved in technologies that were new and different so I began working on internet technology as a lawyer back during dial up right before the iPhone before broadband and I remember we were trying to figure out oh is the internet more like TV should TV regulations apply is it more like cable is it more like newspapers they all had different legal Frameworks and over the years you know we kind of figured out the law of the internet and the law of copyright and privacy and you got to a point where there was a debate whether or not Uber was like a taxi cab or a private car or Airbnb was like a hotel and when it comes to cryptocurrency a lot of um the debates were pretty similar early on right are you know um blockchain is a general purpose technology that can be used to represent any asset and so but a lot of folks were like are these cryptocurrencies Commodities are they currencies right those have different regimes are they Securities are they um more like you know stable coins are they more like certain kinds of financial instruments and what you have is people from different agencies and different ways of life they look at something and they're used to seeing a commodity and they're like oh this looks like a commodity this should be under our jurisdiction and somebody else sees aspects of of their world but it but it's sort of like um sort of like a platypus which is you know neither fish nor foul and and we might end up having a new framework in order to let there be you know innovation in the sector while also protecting people who are who uh who need the disclosures so I could be more specific but that's I think what's going on at a high level like it doesn't fit into any existing box and it has a different risk profile right it removes a lot of risks if you look at what Ave does or what uniswap does in terms of transparency and security but it adds it might add other risks so just you know folks are trying to work it out it's really a question of folks in our industry advocating and explaining to policy makers and also being good actors and creating creating real value for people nice I see so let's dive a bit deeper into the current landscape I think we touch a lot on the high level the past and and and all that so um you know crypto winter where we are now what are some interesting opportunities you see and also what are some you know things that you think will really kick off as the next wave uh for D5 maybe start from study um yeah I think there's like obviously like there the the the the the markets are a bit different than they used to be so you definitely don't have like one of the drivers for default has been uh has been the yield component so um and I think like people talk about this idea of like sustainable yield um you know and whether it's um where it should be and and you know if it's too much maybe it's it's a scam and you know um that's pretty typical use case and if it's too small it's not sustainable enough uh either but I I see kind of like a um like Capital SS liquidity meaning that you know if it's if if the if the yields are high there's some sort of a purpose of the capital to come and actually fill those different kinds of Finance goals to the extent that you you don't take uh excessive uh risk but now like when the yields are quite low at the moment so this is actually uh interesting situation because for the past with has been focusing on actually creating pretty much like liquidity across decentralized Finance which is quite cool if you look back a bit and also look into the what's happening in the in the background uh We've we've been able to create this um kind of like a global liquidity market and bring accessibility to every user across globally equal Fair access to financial opportunities and that's very big thing because it means that you can be in London or you can be in in Singapore or uh in Delphi Delphi and and you can still get the same access to the yield and now that the yield is very low it's actually interesting like how we could use this Global liquidity pool that we created and use it by financing the the finance goal in Real economy and solving some of the issues that we have and especially because the liquidity is relatively uh inexpensive at the moment and I was a couple of months ago I was in uh Buenos Aires in Argentina and I actually saw like how the um local communities are using stable points because of the fact that the the local currency inflation is almost 100 meaning that whatever value you have today uh one year after um that moment you have half of the value uh and you've worked the same amount to get that value and stable coins are a way for many argentinians for example to actually uh retain uh the value and the store of value and also use it as as payments uh as well and it's accepted as a currency in many of the shops as well so you see this kind of like a economic growing and I think there's many countries that are a bit in a similar position but what D5 and blockchain is doing uh quite well it creates that accessibility and it's not just like the access to yield but actually into a monetary system where you you can actually see the transparency see all the transactioning that is happening and also govern the risks and and participate as a community member we're basically creating uh finance and and beyond that as a public good meaning that uh in in some ways uh the financial ecosystem is so valuable and so big that it shouldn't be owned by uh necessarily like small let's say like a small amount of bigger corporations or Banks but it should belong to to people and that's kind of like the idea of public goods and what they can actually do and what has been happening in the background so on the on the front end we've been all like chasing yields and and excited about the applications and technology that has been built but on the kind of like a philosophical philosophical level there's has been like a very big change paradigm shift at the moment so for for Eric curious to ask the same question because we spent a lot of time um you know with the space right so what are some you know New Opportunities or you know new products New Concepts that you see being built uh may not come live you know in a year or so but will potentially can kick off uh the next wave of D5 and well I think the beautiful thing is that we don't know but that's the like if you asked me a year ago or two years ago did I think that the most popular use case in ethereum would be to trade monkey pictures of course not and that's the thing that that's the thing that's that's the beautiful thing with this industry is we don't know like I can sit here and I can claim oh I think it's going to be Creator tokens like that's going to be popular I can say that private dollar is just going to be a huge use case but frankly I have no clue and that's what I love about this space so right now we're in a bear Market it's kind of difficult to identify what's going to kick off next um so like if you're an investor like this is a great time to like start analyzing what's happening in the blockchain you can use tools like nansen to try to see where activity is happening uh but I don't know I don't know I'm trying to stay on my feet to see when the next thing kicks off and I have absolutely no idea what it's going to be like maybe web 3 only fans or something like that yeah yeah I think that's the same with everyone they're still trying to find their mode they're trying to find uh create the next you know competitive landscape of their own uh but from the market perspective uh mgne can you touch a bit more on like how's the current market sentiment um at the moment and what you think of you know the key things that will trigger the market you know up upwards coming back yeah outside yes the market now is yeah it's not the best Market obviously like we're in a clear bear Market I think it will continue for some time it looks like like it's basically driven by macros so much that yeah one kind of just ignore it and even if I know all of us sitting here will come up with beautiful protocols next month it's not gonna jump start Kickstart there's a whole crypto back into the bull market um but once that solved I think one thing that definitely should drive more adoption is basically ease of use and like abstract in a whale of a lot of complexity because what we see like all those guys who well all the people who came and started like looking at yields and uh APN and uh both apes and other stuff like they're still early adopters like we're still at the very beginning of this adapter curve and like the like the next segment they want a more like safe way to use D5 to use nfts they don't want their like ball tapes to be stolen by like stupid scams they like they they want to be they want to feel safe so I think there's like abstraction uh abstraction of this complexity better wallet experience that's that will be one important sign I guess if you ask me like I think if I had to guess the next wave would also come from GameFly and not from like what we saw is like the early Webster gaming but with like new proper games that will hopefully be finished like in one two three years that will focus not necessarily on I know just like buying talking and holding it or just like I don't know farming the stuff like like we did over last last year or so but actually a much more focused on the ownership aspect uh because yeah web2 games yeah you I don't know if you play Diablo or whatever you can spend 100 Grand and get like everything but it won't ultimately belong to you and while in webstery it actually does and once this this uh wants this way for the adoption comes and like they start embracing those like this ownership aspect obviously the next step is okay now we can actually trade this and then we can exchange this and that can further trickle into G5 it can trickle into Lantern it can trickle into trading and I think that that can easily yeah like be the next wave basically I think they all right is that it's gonna take a lot of time for sure for 45 to scale towards Mass adoption there are a lot of Hoops we have to to go through right um and what that means is that they're going to be two Financial systems that coexist uh the traditional Financial system in the real world and you know D5 in you know blockchain world right so maybe just more of a open question for anyone want to take it uh what's your view on how would these two Financial systems integrate or will it you know integrate if so how because eventually if it's going to go into Mass adoption then it has to integrate one way or the other right um yeah I think that traditional Finance is going to die look the Antiquated systems that they're currently using try like I used to work in the clearing industry like building clearing Solutions and matching engines you're just looking at the pipeline for them to ship products and to innovate in a matching engine or deploy anything in that environment so she's just so slow and rubbish it takes like like five years just to get like if you want to uh if you wanna modify how an auction works on the New York Stock Exchange like the initial auction when you when you launch a stock so like in D5 like any 14 year old kid can just copy the best auction contract modify the parts that didn't work and deploy a new thing it's just obvious to me that that is the new way to innovate and and in finance and so I think that these traditional financial institutions are gonna have to in the same way with the internet that everything that was fun and interesting happened in the public internet I mean for during the last like five years we've had more uh explosive advancements in applied cryptography from the crypto space and none of that has come from like the traditional Finance in the industry they don't even know how to reconcile their traits at the end of the day without using Excel spreadsheets sorry so I think that you know D5 is the future they're gonna have to come to us we're not going to go over there and optimize their systems this is what's going to happen what about the other people what do you think Marvin um you know the inertia of old industry is sometimes takes a long time to transition out um you know the folks who just left the uh the Teriyaki boys were talking about working in fashion and how fashion a lot of folks don't even do e-commerce yet right and if you look at your your bank websites and apps they feel like their web 1.0 not Web 2.0 sometimes so you end up um you know it might take a while for there to be these kind of two Paths of traditional finance and decentralized Finance in terms of how they'll interact um I mean one for a lot of people traditional Finance is easier right they don't have to deal with private keys and self-custody and they can reset their password and it just kind of works within the system of everything of everything else so one thing that you know our community has to do is really improve UI Security in a way that like the average person like you know my brother right uh who I think doesn't even use Apple pay right but it would be able you know hopefully could use could use crypto and then you know I spent a lot of my time thinking about policy and policy makers and they often think about how Trad Phi and defy overlap because they're worried about systemic risk right they spend all their time thinking about risks and they want to they want two separate environments so that the contagion of D5 which you know is not a lot of contagion as we've seen recently with the obvious track record versus you know Celsius and others they're worried that they'll be contagion or systemic risk and so one of the things that we'll see is I think the legal environment shaping how these two can interact or not um and we've had you know some folks in the US where I am uh who are pro-defy we've seen uh Senator gillibrand uh from New York uh so a powerful senator from the center of Finance very Pro D5 speaking publicly in favor of of defy and its promise but we've also seen uh like there's a current bill by the by the head of the agriculture Committee in the Senate that focuses on centralized exchanges and and seems to not really be uh a combinating of defy so the the future depends on the things we build to make sure that the average person can actually use D5 and has a stake in it so that policy makers actually see the benefit and and are willing to to accommodate um what about you actually what's your thought yeah I guess I'm not as optimistic um yeah look if you look at uh like some countries like I don't know like Thailand like Emirates like a lot of like a lot of most of the countries I guess are like they this is there set up in a way that yeah try to find defies they can't coexist because you regulator size uh like don't care that much or because it's like it it makes sense for them to coexist and regulate this and I'm gonna yeah be that involved other countries like Singapore UK maybe like it's also possible but it's it's much more on the on the edge because yeah there is a yes there is this natural fight between yeah protecting uh yeah protecting retail retail investors and just leaving it alone because that's good for the economy to attract new businesses but then we have like EU China which are clearly for anti-crypter and I don't I don't think you can do much about it really because for them the focus is they just want to control everything and I guess U.S is the main Battleground in that respect because yes there are and I think it's it's going to be the most crucial one because yes there are well basically people or senators or whatever who are pro-crypta there are a lot of centers who are really against crypto um and ultimately with whatever side wins would would Define not just regulation in U.S but also regulation across the world as well which kind of sucks to be honest because yeah you have one country deciding faith of everyone else um and so I kind of said two features one where yeah Define threat Phi coexist another where basically all that will remain from D5 that will be able to settle Bonds in five minutes instead of five days and I know we'll replace some some Legacy institutions and transfer stable coins but that will be it um and maybe there will be like a separate I know sort of Shadow economy and metaverse or whatever which will be Out Of Reach of regulators but that's that's kind of like a sad future which unfortunately is possible um also curious to hear I've studied start because they also Ventures into you know Ave Pro as well work with a lot with institutions so if you take that on a grander scheme of things right how do you see you know traffic and D5 working together yeah I mean uh even if you look what like the past tendency What's um like what basically the internet has done effectively it's it's democratized access to information and and later even like access to Commerce so you know anyone any part of the world can pretty much get the same uh Goods across the internet and going back when I was for example growing up uh I still remember uh days when you actually take a credit card and you're going to pay for something and it's before you actually put those numbers in you go and read reviews if that particular internet shop if it's actually reliable so kind of I I see like decentralized Finance has a bit that moment where you're still thinking like which of the protocols are safe to use and it's it's very early and and back in um uh early internet as well so there was a lot of discussion so what kind of issues internet actually brings at the same time so there's there's whenever there's a new technology that creates uh access and uh democratizes um different Industries and markets uh you will always have some sort of a friction because it means that it creates so many opportunities that you know you you you find new challenges and the regulation probably isn't uh keeping up uh or there's also like a pre-discussion before that like what should be regulated and what should be opened and I think with distance as Finance it has its moment now where you know it there's like it's very obvious what kind of benefits D5 has so you have the transparency you have that known code known custodial access um wherever you are and accessing these protocols um and you have smart one check execution meaning that you know you can trust that the the software will work exactly uh particularly uh way and I think like um it's it's just as a software what was mentioned it's just so better what we have built in the finance industry and finance hasn't been evolving uh that much so if you look at many of the the innovations that we have in finance they're usually more on the kind of like uh experience layer and and the front-end layer um and I don't blame it because it's a very big industry to transform we went from brick and mortar uh banking into uh internet banking into Mobile Banking following where consumers are and all of these processes we actually had to educate a lot of people actually how to use um maybe some of the folks that were using um internet use the first time internet because of internet banking so like there's always this kind of like an educational Gap that we have to do and a lot of like technicalities that we have to solve like how do you secure your keys how you find maybe if you don't want to secure a trusted provider and I think still you can build Financial Services on top of the um like kind of like a decentralized equal access infrastructure as well and provide a lot of value so in some ways I want to say that I think just Finance because becomes like like it becomes defy in the in the infrastructure and in the back end and because of the nature of the uh D5 and the accessibility it just changes the way that everyone has to operate uh in the space because now actually the end users have the ability to move from one protocol to another they have their ownership of the the keys and this will apply not just only to finance but everything else uh basically to social media you're owning your own social uh profile and graph e-commerce as well um and and for creators also they will have their direct access to their audiences so it's just like a big paradigm shift because we're uh re-architecturing the whole way we we built the internet now so I think it's I think financial service providers and people who add value they will still be in the space and continue adding value but they have to change the way they operate in a way that are aligned with the principles that the the the decentralized finance has has been built yeah I think you touched on a good point which is education right I think a lot of people who are in the space now especially in D5 um they got introduced to D5 through yields um and I think that's how they were educated about EFI and hence that's why they also expect more yields um to continue um and you touch a bit before as well that you know youth are coming down now so I think the question is more about yields and D5 would be bread and butter because you know Financial Services people also expect yields at some level right so how would you think um you know in order for for yields to actually be sustainable maybe not in a way that that you know people are talking about it now but um how do you think you know the yields that will make people the mass actually stay and not just like leave the space now that the users are low so some you know some projects now are building different ways to hedge the risk or have that minimal yields some people are looking into tapping to you know institutions to to onboard them to give the use in D5 so so in your opinion you know in summary in your opinion uh what are the key tools that yields would have to be such that it can be sustainable yields for the future well um I think I said previously like I really don't like getting yield on your your assets and preserving the value you basically work for is important I think uh like the big like um the bigger the bigger kind of like uh like a beast and and the enemy is the inflation so for example the the um whatever goods and services you're selling and earning and uh or whatever um work you're doing and when you get rewarded for that work and if you lose the value I think the inflation is the the kind of like an enemy um and yields on top of whatever inflation is is um nice to have but I think like um the the bigger kind of like opportunity is to actually build more um opportunities to to finance um areas that maybe the traditional Finance couldn't do before I mean I'm uh at the moment I'm 31 years old and I still haven't received a bank loan and in my life and I I think I applied for every three or four years just as a as a kind of like experimentation uh maybe because I have a crypto background but there there's entrepreneurs uh a lot of people actually uh falling into these different kinds of gaps because they just don't feel the very traditional um uh part where how how people work today you have gig economy you have a lot of new ways to work and people travel a lot from one country to another um and you're you're basic credit is in passporting from let's say one country to another even within the European uh Union for example so and and I assume here as well so I think like there's a lot of weight actually that blockchain as immutable uh and verified data system could actually uh solve and now that we created this big liquidity uh Market you can actually take that liquidity and create different kinds of trust networks and and finance uh this very interesting empowering uh goals and it's not just like financing everyday life but can actually find some interesting uh infrastructure that we can build on a larger scale and that's that creates more demand and and that creates also then that more yield and and nice kind of like a flywheel uh for liquidity and and I think the the best kind of liquidity is that if you can Finance something um let's say in in Europe and get those uh finances back and then Finance later and reuse the same liquidity in in Asia that's kind of like an optimal uh uh place to be in and that everyone has the same accessibility uh with the same uh background then I think we're in a very good position and we have a good fly bill for for yields got it yeah I think uh we're have about four or five minutes left when I actually touch it on on the last question for for every panel so a lot of people um especially those who may not be using D5 at the moment right um they also question uh how D5 would be the long term of Finance in the future um I think it's a valid question because there are a lot of gaps a lot of Hoops we have to go through as an industry right so when I hear all of your thoughts on why you're you know really believe in a space uh what do you think of the long term of D5 and can you share more of that of your insights to the audience so one of the reasons why I have faith in the long term of Defy is because we've actually built Innovations at traditional Finance has not been able to build and the way Innovation Works is it's very unpredictable right you can't essentially plan Innovation the most the times when you have the most Innovation are when there are low cost Innovation and you let a thousand flowers bloom and a few of them will become uniswap and Ave and others right you couldn't predict internet Innovation lots of overfunded companies that failed lots of over credentialed Founders that failed and then you have you know a random person like hidden Adams our founder who doesn't have any interesting credentials and was kind of teaching himself how to code and then build something that chatify had never been able to create an automated Market maker right and one of you know at uniswap Labs one of our advisors uh is the most recent president of the New York Stock Exchange right she's interested in what you know from an intellectual and potentially practical perspective um you know this concept and the liquidity the the liquidity pools the yield that's available on uniswap labs and I need a protocol these are just new innovations that are new and better and the the second thing about Innovation that people don't always realize not only that it's unpredictable and you just need low cost of innovation is that it's a creative it builds on one another right you get you get a whole bunch of different things built and someone creates something somebody else can look at it and say hey I can apply it to something else so um the fact that you have you know every talented person in the world can build on the Innovation can analyze Innovation means that D5 will continue to innovate very quickly versus situations where in order to create something new you have to have gone to the right schools you have to you know interned at the right places spent years meant being mentored by the right person and then you get into a committee where a whole bunch of people might be able to kill your idea and so I I see a real a real future for it for D5 because it'll simply learn and move more quickly did you see that uh man and that woman that went into a bank in Lebanon with a gun and fired it off because they couldn't access the money that they had saved at the bank that's the reason that this industry exists and that's the reason that this industry is going to become successful because and it's the same same thing with like centralized exchange like Mount gogs people lost their life savings Defy is the only solution to that problem it allows people to trade and store their assets without having to trust Central parties that all the time up and make people lose their money that's the core principle and that's I don't I to me it's a no-brainer that this is going to be the future yeah to me it's kind of like two answers to this question personal and well from my personal perspective and From wintermute perspective from personal perspective I kind of see yeah there is a general tendency in not just in developed markets but also in development markets like well in China as well and basic kind of like this very paternalistic approach to uh to Consumers to people to to corporate to everything web basically regulators and governments will control pretty much everything so it's already busy it's not it's already like with the sanctions there's like this tracker protest in Canada but way to go and ultimately I think potentially is basically the cbdc world where the government controls pretty much everything which operates on like white list Blacklist and that's basically a very dystopian version of the world for me personally and crypto is completely opposite of that crypto basically is all about personal responsibility about ownership about yeah being in control of your faith and I'm personally like very much aligned with that side and on the internet side it's it's also okay we strive in complexity we want there to be multiple centralized exchanges we want to be multiple L1 so twos those three so zeros whatever the world where everything trades on one exchange and the only Market maker Citadel yeah that's that's not the world we want to work that's not the world we want to operate in and it's kind of great for me yeah to be working in a company is that that's a line both strategically and like philosophy lines that you got stunning I uh I'm very uh excited about everything uh that is happening in in what we have built uh so far um and I I think kind of like when we're thinking about the the topic of like message Mass adoption and how we get more people I think it's more of like a broader economy uh thing so like uh we we have decentralized finance and we have Primitives we have Unison for swapping assets however for Lending and borrowing and and and we have stable coins and I think kind of like we have a good infrastructure um and with layer twos we have scalability that we can actually take more users into the um the whole blockchain ecosystem and I think that the next interesting thing is to build the other parts of the economy that actually need the on-chain finance um like building more Commerce into uh the blockchain space social uh the Creator economy as well and then also like using the whole on-chain liquidity in in real life as well so I think kind of like we'll see more users to come into the blockchain space with non-financial uh interest but over the time as they grow up as a user in battery they end up using decentralized finance and participate in the E5 and the most exciting thing for me is that all of these Protocols are governed by their own users and their communities so for example the unisoft team or other team they can't arbitrarily go and change the code there's a formal process in the community governance and anyone can actually participate to actually decide how the future of Finance should be and I think that's very powerful awesome that's a wrap for today thank you so much all the panelists and thank you everyone from the audience as well [Applause]