DeFi: The Future of Finance - TOKEN2049 London 2021

uh good morning everyone how's everyone doing awesome um cool so wanna start this off we're gonna basically go into some really cool topics regarding defy the future of defy and we'll start off with some things that i think are you know a bit meatier and really really interesting to dive into but to to break the ice we'll go ahead and just ask a quick question um and have everyone on the panel introduce themselves and with the recent um continuation of conferences and things opening up uh question that i'll ask everyone is what's what's the most interesting city you've recently visited and uh and then just introduce yourself and uh what you're working on so um i'm will villanueva i'm the ceo and founder of element finance um and pass it off to you uh yeah kane from synthetics um i think the most interesting city i've been is paris recently which was pretty fun it's been a while since i was there for ecc um but yeah it's been amazing to be back in london after maybe like 10 years i think so and also to visit my friend sandy as well gm everyone uh [Laughter] i'm stanley i'm from uh ave and yeah and interesting cities i think london i [ __ ] love london i have to say oh [Applause] uh hey i'm tyrone um from from gauntlet and robot ventures um i uh yeah i i kind of want to steal stanley's answer like new york again like post reopening is a great city to visit so unfortunately i haven't been to enough places other than new york and london and lisbon awesome awesome cool so for the first question to start some good conversation um so there's been a lot of attention lately on the nft market and defy has not been as strongly in the spotlight as it was prior through d5 summer and other periods and the users growth is still there there's still a lot of really really strong companies being built and coming forward but the question is do you foresee this being a strong you know building time for d5 or d5 really picking up in the spotlight again and what are some of the pieces that would move this um i think this is a you know stanley i'll have you start off on this one oh yeah yeah i i think uh well you know i i remember still like like two years ago like there was like probably like 5 000 less like d5 users so and even like now you look at the whole kind of space on on for example the wallets that are interacting with decentralized finance today in ethereum for example there's over 3 million wallets so there is kind of like adoption and it isn't going away anywhere and i think what's uh cool is that you know nfts and the whole like greater economy was somehow is getting you know more and more uh traction because also it's very easy to explain like the things that uh we're building uh at ave you know all this kind of like a uh liquidity pools and what's for example synthetics is doing it's it's not super easy to explain i mean essentially it's getting yield on your uh your uh assets but you know it's end of the day it's finance right so like if you get yield on your funds and you can do some interesting things that's fine but life is kind of like more about than finance so especially like when the nfd space has been doing well is that you get a lot of creators into this space and more adoption like people understand uh somehow better you know buying jpegs and trading them uh at a higher price and buying more jpegs and trading but all all what nfts also are doing is they're onboarding a lot of new users at the same time and a lot of these news users are looking into d5 as well and the same way as developers are building uh nft projects uh they're also get curious about decent plus finance and there's still a lot of work uh web3 is an economy a big ecosystem and i think there's going to be dozens of new things happening for the next uh let's say like few years and i think like v5 will be always there like it's just uh inevitable that the first thing that has been born in in web3 uh is finance because you kind of need finance it's very programmable and then you know the whole ecosystem expands with with nfts greater economy coming in next thing might be social media uh kind of like web3 uh style then maybe the next thing is that e-commerce comes to web3 and it just expands but the kind of like a endpoint for all of this expansion is to get more users uh and more people to use whatever they want to do in decentralized fashion and i think it's just anything that is happening is on boarding more people into d5 awesome um i think you know there's also like a really interesting intersection and um i know you've been involved with this tarou and you've been involved with this i know kane you have you have thoughts on this as well but there's there's this whole like uh introduction of this space which is basically fractionalized nfts um and essentially that introduces like this this merging of the two worlds um fractionalized nfts offers more borrowing and you know lending market opportunities um so just just curious to hear about that and and maybe um truon or kane or or stanley you can sort of explain that um and would be curious to hear what you think as far as that being a major catalyst for for sort of these two industries to be one in the same um yeah i guess one thing i would say is towards uh why nfts are kind of efficient uh relative to traditional finance is you know one way of thinking about d5 is thinking of it as like replacing existing financial structures but i've tend to feel like it's easier to view it as like it's cheaper legal cost for the end user it's like basically you've reduced the legal cost to zero for transactions that traditionally would have like a ton of securities lawyers or a ton of like content lawyers who are kind of like interacting with the users and owners and like any transference requires like 500 lawyers and now it's sort of a contract call um and i think fractionalization is you know a way of securitizing ip that has you know traditionally been quite fraught when you kind of try to take a piece of ip you have to put in a company then you have to go sell shares in the company there's a lot of like extra steps in the real world of going from like single asset to sort of common ownership by multiple people uh and i think fractionalization is an attempt at doing that more efficiently um it's not sort of the only way of sort of getting liquidity on these assets so you know you buy a single asset you may want to capture some of the liquid value that's held in it uh and but fractionalization's the simplest one um it's the one that's like easiest for people to understand um and i think one of the cool things about it is it will change the modality that people interact with wallets uh for nfts because you know right now the sort of wallet and user experience of an nft is i have an asset i own this ip or some sort of promissory rights to some ip um but there's not really an idea of like hey if i own one tenth of a jpeg you know what does that mean uh do i get an image that is you know special or different and i think we're starting to see people explore that space a lot and uh yeah that's yeah at a very high level i guess i view it as like just removing lawyers yeah it's super interesting and what sort of like innovations you know would you say that this this introduces as far as application products that can be built on um nfts fractionalized nfts um and through borrowing lending markets as well curious um i mean i i you know for me i think we try to financialize things because we're d5 people and we you know like defy and and like financial uh structures but for most people i i don't even think like nft fractionalization is like that interesting like taking something that's like a you know cultural thing and trying to financialize it is maybe not the most interesting thing so um you know we and senny you know said it himself there's like 5 000 users of defy those were all people that were kind of like deep finance people they care about finance they care about market structures um but i think the next you know million or 10 million people that come in are probably not that likely to care about finance right they care about culture they care about games movies art et cetera and so i think you know the the kind of intersection of like nfts and culture and defy is interesting but it's not necessarily going to drive like a huge adoption i think it really will be uh you know gaming and things like that that's going to be you know the most impactful thing yeah i think and and that's a really good lead-in too so like we look at gaming that sort of can be a real catalyst for the space and industry and uh you know another intersection that i think is really interesting and um kane i know your brother is is involved with this as well uh but the play to earn um space and game phi um and curious like where where do you see you know this plane um into defy and into the ecosystem and could this be what like really bridges a lot of this you know um you know mainstream activity with with the finance world that sort of drives things behind it i mean we've already seen it with axey you know it's i think it's still early um we we haven't kind of seen how it's going to play out for uh all games but you know there's definitely this very kind of interesting starting point that axi has has driven um and you know the the number of people and and the amount of kind of revenue and attention and activity that gaming gets versus you know other industries is absolutely huge um it obviously you know dwarfs what we have in d5 now so i think for us the the kind of critical thing is to make sure that we nail scaling because if we're not getting the kind of underlying architecture right then we're not going to be able to accommodate all these people coming in and you know like we saw in d5 summer people can get quite frustrated if they turn up and you know transaction costs are high there's a lot of friction um you know ux is is not ideal um so i do think that we've got uh our work cut out for us to make sure that we're ready for you know these people to to turn up you know if we had 10 million people turn up today and try and use you know ethereum even with all the scaling solutions we have now we probably can't accommodate them yeah yeah yeah it'd be difficult it would be painful yeah yeah be very painful yeah um stanley do you have any thoughts about how this sort of intersects with something um like you know of and uh and in general uh the borrowing and lending market do you see an intersection with uh plato earn or uh in general the nft space at all and nft is collateral really curious to hear your sort of insights on this and from your product experience yeah i definitely think it's uh very interesting especially like gaming perspective because uh like kind of like first time ever efficiently you can actually own you know the linking the signature of a particular asset in a game so for example if you play today fortnite and fortnite goes down or they don't want to develop the game further for some i don't know something will happen and what's what's interesting is that you know if something like that happens some other developer any part of the world could just create a new game and say that all of this warns these assets that are like fortnite assets can join the game and and pretty much put incentives on top so as a kind of like uh from the builders per se perspective you are incentivized to contribute to the community and and to the kind of like a metaverse because there's already people who are owning assets and and you can actually create interactions for them and also incentives to do that and i think uh what happens also is that many of these assets become like value you know because uh let's say you have uh like metaverse like a gaming asset it could be like very nice uh sure canes like white shirt and you know and people know that it was from kane you know you have the provenance and everything and and you know kane builds a new protocol and the price of that shirt goes up you know and people start to trade these things and what's interesting is that it creates an economy and as these assets are you know usable they're kind of like uh usable in finance as well so you can use them as a collateral uh you can you know borrow against them but also there's like another part where you know it creates new challenges for the game economy as well because first time ever like some like very basic assets that that are like entering into a game like normally you go into a store and you buy a game or you know now you do it online you might have to buy an asset to to join a game and then what happens is that you know maybe there's more demand and there's actually uh supply of those assets and and the the value goes up so then the question kind of comes in like well how do you play with the game economy econom economics and make uh games that are uh you know that they are kind of like inclusive and you get adoption because if you have a kid who has to pay let's say like 1000 bucks for like 10 000 bucks to buy something to play a game that doesn't get us like to the next step in adoption and some of the interesting stuff i've seen is where you could actually you know you can own the asset but then you can lend the asset to someone else kind of like rent it out until like and you can use that you can borrow an asset and you can use it and and uh you know until you you get your own asset during the game period or something but i think like like there's way more like it's very cool what like nfts are doing for for uh gaming but there's also like a lot of interesting challenges as well to solve and i think like all of these games are like dealing with it like how you can actually create more adoption and what kane mentioned about the scalability that's another thing you know when when when you are adopting a lot of users uh a lot of players like things become very tricky yeah i was gonna add just one thing like if we if we zoom out to kind of what i why gaming is so much different in the cryptosphere a little bit there's this sort of philosophical difference of the ip is owned by the company that produced the game so right if we look at like game designers for the last 20 years most of the value captured has been generated by the ip owners and the ipowner is strongly defending that territory but in crypto games you naturally have the players owning the ip and so when the players own the ip in the form of items you effectively necessarily have to have d5 type of interfaces so that people can actually move their assets across games move their assets between um platforms uh which completely changes the you know the model of where the value is captured and in a lot of ways the value will be captured by the d5 protocols that facilitate things rather than the ip itself yeah and even cross-cross game assets right you can now take this nft from one game and it has value you know in another um i i think also another interesting thing is uh and you sort of touched on this danny is you know this model where you can sort of rent uh rent out you know certain um you know and nfts for people to be involved in different games um and essentially they they you know do the play to earn for you um and it becomes sort of like a yield source so you could sort of see that you know gamers across the world could be fueling something like a 401k or cds in the future um a lot of you know growth assets like that um which i think is super interesting i don't know if any of you all have thoughts on that i mean it comes back to turin's point you know when when you uh control the ip when you control the asset as a user and you've got this kind of like self custody concept uh it's it's really powerful um you know if you're a gamer you've probably been been robbed many times right by uh some game you know changing the rules or removing assets or whatever you know i think we have uh we have uh world of warcraft to thank for ethereum right like vitalik getting rugged on uh on some you know uh items that he had and realizing this platform risk um so there is this very powerful concept of like the platform can't take away something that you've earned or you've built or you've created or you know whatever it is um and i think that that's kind of like you know central to crypto this idea of self-custody and and not having uh some you know third party be able to come in and do something yeah yeah also like the community perspectives is interesting like because like kind of like all of the asset owners you know they're in one way like dao there you know and they most cases like you you somehow like contribute or govern a particular you know network or the web three elements of a game i mean i i think like all gaming doesn't need to be on web3 for example but some elements are but it creates like a community and and also a way to interact with with the community members as well and i think like the concept of like dao's will just uh grow all the time because they're just in every single you know categories there's thousand d5 you know there's there's styles um in in the nft space and and also in gaming and that's actually interesting because uh you could now create games like what the players want yeah that's so cool yeah it's sort of like uh you know when when i was younger in gaming i wish that all this was there and what what will be there in like 10 years um and and a lot of the the cool developments there um cool so i'm gonna sort of switch over to some general questions um and uh curious to hear thoughts here what what do you all think is sort of the next frontier in d5 like what what primitives are we missing where do you foresee uh areas that can grow and strengthen um i'll start off with you tarun yeah yeah i mean i think you know for for better or worse i think we've somehow decided that the first generation of nfts meet defy are going to just be take centralized uh centralized mechanisms and and kind of apply them directly to d5 so whether that's fractionalization whether that's adding perps to to nfts but kind of in the way that uniswap was was a very large uh sort of like phase transition between uh you know d5 being like 0x and very complicated like for every user to kind of just like sort of one-click trade you interface i basically think there's going to be some form of nft finance that has kind of a very simple interface but might not be financially optimal to start that we haven't kind of created and it's going to not look like a future derivative or swap it's going to be something that whose interface somehow it probably is replicated by them but it it needs to have this kind of like ux such that anyone can on one click enter or exit and i i think like we're starting to see that a little bit with fractionalization where the auction models are changing and people can own sort of uh mixed portfolios uh but we're not quite at the point where it's like my mom could use an nft derivative no insult to my mom yeah um this is you you brought up perpetuals and sort of perpetuals and nfts in general and i actually put out a poll on twitter recently that was asking defy users builders how much they knew about perpetuals and the move for perpetuals to on-chain perpetuals in general and actually most of the respondents weren't uh weren't super aware of the perpetuals market and a lot you know a lot behind that so um sort of as a lead-in like tarun would love to hear you sort of give an overview um on that and just talk about like why is this so important like we're seeing um you know we're seeing a lot of that depth now show up on dydx for example from a lot of the centralized operators and so we're seeing this big shift finally into into the decentralized systems and defined this is this is actually really really big um to see and so it's uh it's definitely an interesting interesting thing to follow so yeah taren would love to love to hear your thoughts and um yeah yeah i mean like if we take a look back at history like why does so before we talk about what a perpetual is there's a a simple question might be like why in traditional finance do perpetual assets not have a huge amount of volume or interest versus in crypto they are the dominant form of exchange um and sort of the history of why the perpetual became so dominant was effectively miners uh you know 2013 and 14 after the big drawdown uh realized they had to hedge their electricity costs and also hedge their overall sort of like exposure to the underlying coins that are mining and so they started making sort of traditional finance derivatives so they had options they had normal futures that had sort of an expiry date and these were actually really really hard to price and part of the reason for that is that miners have much higher income volatility than say like a farmer who kind of also knows what their expected date for their crop is and also like has sort of like some notion of seasonality built into their commodity they're producing miners have much more volatility to the point that it became really hard to have these like finite expiry products where it was like hey i could predict that i'm only going to make 100 bitcoin in the next one month um so the perpetual was really invented as this way for miners to hedge without having to think about duration and um from that lens basically the product is there are you know basically two sides of the market there are people who are uh who want to be long nasa and people want to be short the asset there's sort of an oracle that updates the index price that it's measured relative to and if the price is going up basically the shorts pay the longs price is going down logs pay the shorts and there's you know a bunch of different you know there's effectively a rate of interest that is accrued by that mechanism so the reason they're popular is just people don't want to hold duration risk in crypto so far uh you know that might change when daos start doing crazy things with their treasuries uh but we're kind of not at that and why why the shift recently uh to to d5 like what's what sort of fueled that sort of these decentralized have you tried withdrawing any assets from binance lately [Music] yeah that's cool um awesome uh so uh you know i stanley curious to ask you um what is something recent that you're you're building and excited about oh the alpha league now give us the alpha i don't know if i can say actually um yeah so well there's some stuff we're doing i mean ave essentially i mean we we started building decent class finance uh and you know because it was fun i mean it was just so fun to make uh you know money and and finance from programmable that you know that i never like first when i when i found ethereum smart contracts like that was for me very mind-blowing moment because i've been building like fintech applications before that and you always like work with different apis you know something changes breaks or you know you don't get a access to an api and there's this all kind of like challenges but you know first ever you could pretty much like do anything like any any financial product that existed you could actually make it more efficient uh self-executing transparent and when you look d5 in general like it's it's a amazing kind of like a uh environment because you see all the risk everywhere you you see what's going on on ave on synthetics on on unit swap and and and you got you have like guys like tarun who is analyzing the whole thing and publishing papers about it and it's just like very interesting and and like that was the main main point for us but as we saw like you know it's just one building block and i thought that we want to be more of uh you know web3 uh kind of like a builder team in the sense that we want to just uh build more things not necessarily financial even though like blockchain like main thing is that it stores very well uh you know value financial value but it can also be uh you know social capital and there's a lot of social capital actually in in in governance tokens but especially in nfts and and in the future like what we have seen is that what's kind of missing now is uh there's so many users coming into the space uh but there isn't a way of actually kind of like connecting all people together and having a like web pre-native uh broadcasting way with your audience and now we're pretty much like building a social graph and that's like very interesting because it's a way not only to broadcast your audience but also make an audience kind of uh to become a dow on what you publish as well and essentially uh because there's a lot of nfts involved on those relationships essentially at some point you can connect d5 into it you know and as you have like social graph you have identity you kind of already have identity on on chain uh and at some point probably i don't know like how how long it will be like this that you know everything is kind of like transparent everyone sees your like you know unchained bank account all the time uh but at some point you know you have something like privacy as well uh and people will be working on that but i think that's where we're focusing quite a lot we're experimenting a lot of uh well actually we're researching a lot uh universal basic income uh you know what we usually try to do is something like very very impactful uh and empower a lot of people and i think that's what webtree is all about you you have a technology and you have something that you know should be you know permissionless should be uh something that you can't stop and you can build things that just uh empower sort of users and that's what we're doing yeah yeah um kane do you think you brought up like the universal basic income side and you know there's uh funds that people people get to use um but uh you know there's a lot of talk about it um but we like lack you know some data on it um can we draw parallels between sort of like the yield markets currently and and what we see in current defy protocols and sort of you know ubi and that side of things i mean potentially but you know a lot of the yield in in d5 is still very speculative right so um you know i don't know uh how how much we can kind of you know what conclusions we can necessarily draw from the last like three years of yield farming and and all of that craziness um but for me and for synthetics at the moment the uh the big focus that we've got is redesigning governance um so it's kind of you know this uh unspoken thing uh at the moment in in the d5 space where uh the governance infrastructure that we have is pretty terrible um and you know we kind of have patched these things together and it kind of works and you got snapshot and you know you've got the compound governance module and you know ave's done their own thing and synthetics has done uh you know done something else but they're all pretty bad right um you know they they get the job done uh in the sense that you know we've kind of iteratively built out these things that sort of solved our specific problems but they're not very generalizable um and aragon was supposed to do this for us and unfortunately it didn't happen uh so you know we are kind of looking at this problem and saying okay uh you've got all these dows launching you've got this coordination problem um we need to be able to do things as pure dowels but we don't have the tooling as pure dowels to kind of do it and and you know someone needs to build it and so we've spent the last probably you know three months and and i think we're going to spend another like three to six months working on this governance module uh in synthetics that we're going to use for our own v3 redesign um but that we're also going to release as you know like you guys have done as well as an open source kind of tool that the industry can use because um right now a lot of the governance processes in d fire discretionary right we're still in kind of this multi-sig era you know i think we all sit on multiple multi-sigs right and you know someone sends you a message in a telegram says hey can you please sign this transaction or whatever it's it's pretty terrible right um we really should be handing more control over to the community um but we just can't do it the tooling's not there um so for us that's something that's very critical and and hopefully uh early next year we'll be able to release that and we'll be able to kind of get away from these multi-sigs and and all of this kind of off-chain coordination um without kind of devolving into plutocracy which has been the problem in the past when we've done direct one of the struggles yeah yeah um and do we uh do you see any parallel to like sort of the evolution of that and um you know the sort of a hot topic an interesting topic recently is a lot of the crackdowns on indexes and defy in general um you know do you think that puts you know even more strength into building this tooling out or do we see a stronger anonymous movement being created being developed currently i think absolutely the the regulatory environment um is much worse than i think most of us hoped it would be uh and you know regulators are uh are fairly adversarial right now um in spite of the fact that you know i've said this many times i think d5 aligns very much with the outcomes that regulators want um but uh you know define and a lot of the crypto infrastructure is still um you know we haven't done a great job educating regulators on on you know how it can work and and what it can do um but in that kind of environment you really do need to you know be as censorship resistant as possible and you genuinely need to be governed by a community if you're going to be a protocol and so you know to be genuinely governed by a community at the moment means your token holders have to have a way of expressing their will and really guiding what's happening you can still have people building things you can still have you know a group of people that's being kind of driven by this community but the community has to have more input and right now that's really hard we don't have a way of giving communities a kind of direct input and control protocols um and so that that kind of gap is the thing that we need to close in my mind gotcha gotcha and having that much much more strongly with the tooling for for the communities um tyrone question for you do we see a lot more crypto friendly regulations nation stepping to track the builders innovators and wealth that has been formed uh within the industry um i don't know if i would consider myself a regulatory expert sorry stony and kane probably have much more uh direct experience okay want to take this one sure why not i mean you know i think again uh the the kind of alignment between regulators and and people building in defy um is should be strong and it's not and i think we can fix that to an extent um but you know there definitely needs to be a dialogue and i think um you know uni swap and uh and a number of other uh protocols have really kind of stepped up and said okay we're going to fund these lobbying efforts specifically in the us um and you know really go out there and kind of you know take we've we've sat back and just built things and said you know we're doing good stuff where you know um we're kind of uh we're building um all this amazing infrastructure and then all of a sudden you know people kind of like shine this spotlight on us and and we realize that uh you know again the education element maybe with the regulators had been um you know kind of lagging um and i think that we've definitely realized that and as an industry we've kind of gone and said okay let's like really step up and put some time and effort and resources towards uh you know trying to solve this problem yeah i cannot say that i mean uh i don't know my like i don't know my academic background is uh like i'm a lawyer but i went to you know building products and and you know i always think about like regulation you know smart contracts kind of like in parallel because you know for me like smart contracts are kind of like you know the killer you know use case for rec tech so imagine you know you have rules that you know no one can actually break uh and there is always kind of like a way to govern and many of these communities like and and protocols are governed by uh daos and led by the communities itself so the communities by themselves are kind of like self-governing products that they want to use protocols that they want to use and that's like very fascinating difference because there is many industries today where self-regulation applies and you know web3 is just smarter check-based regulation in in one way what's uh difficult probably is that you know the education part what what uh kane mentioned is that getting you know the benefits what for example b5 provides uh they're clear you know it's it's way more than obvious if you go today you know you see everything what's happening in the efi you see all the transactions the whole you know ecosystem is auditable uh every single second by anyone you can create amazing risk mitigation tools because you have this exposure you didn't have this exposure in 2008 for example you couldn't see who is exposed to what because agreements are in papers you have regulatory reporting requirements that are periodical but you actually have real time you know vision on what's going on and you can build better risk management products and because you know there's flexibility there's permissionless nature you know everyone can access these protocols means that it actually democratizes what finance today is the benefits are just you know uh amazing but you know to kind of like get this this understanding in scale it requires just a lot of education and we're doing that quite a lot as a community uh and and the whole space in general and that's why we're here and talking to you as well i mean we want to educate as well and i mean the other part is that you know if you don't we are we can lose something that is very valuable and empowering and i don't think you know that will be a cool result yeah yeah the education side is very very important cool so to uh we have a little bit of time left so i'll sort of switch to some quick fire rapid questions that'll pass down uh the line so uh first question is favorite stable susd i mean that was a softball club how about you stanley uh i wanted to say like a s usd but i i like the [Laughter] uh wait i let me give something more trickier uh does it have to be stable you know that's a totally different question he might change his answer yeah favorite asset what what it could be i don't know i well i have this nfc of like there's like a frog picture like i like that whatever you're a tote you're a toad maximalist [Laughter] yeah if it's any asset it's my wild wide hair punk for sure how about you tyrone um uh i guess favorite asset uh you know i used to make a lot of generative art so i own a bunch of generative art from some artists on tezos bizarrely because all kind of old-school generative artists only they they they they they fell for the uh proof of stake as environmentally friendly marketing and uh went to tezus but you know i think actually hen which is on tezos is actually a really amazing platform i gotta say uh but yeah i just own a bunch of generative art pieces that cool cool uh favorite anon in the space uh tracheal objects from urine cool [Music] i kind of don't like them just kidding i i think um i think i like probably uh xerox tuba london going for the london but he docks himself as being in london because of this conference maybe it's steady it might be stunning i would have said actually too but i'll give my second favorite which is probably sisyphus xerox nice nice and uh finally the final question your l2 that you're most excited about platform i mean optimism obviously i'm an optimism maxie so yeah i like it penny uh wait well they kind of don't work any of those like i'll pick one like i will pick the one i'll support the one that will be like let's say will be online for four months yeah i will pick that one it's the four month continuity yeah um [Music] it has to be a zk roll up but i'm not really sure if i know which one will win which one will and i i yeah yeah in the long run i feel like that's the future there's not really there's no way around that and time will tell we'll see what sort of develops out of out of that so cool we're at time thanks everyone and [Applause]