Panel 9 - Achieving Product Market Fit for Decentralised Stablecoins

hello everyone uh it's is scan uh founder of Banker Smith we are building a stable coin that is backed by uh delta neutral model and first of all thank you for all being here and I think like this is a very crucial topic since we are in Turkey we have great example and use cases of product Market fit in Turkey so I believe this will be a very exciting conversation uh first of all I think we should introduce each others uh uh then we can continue the discussion my name is Jan Buu I'm the founder and CEO of state capital group uh we have invested uh massively in a space of Defi and and also created some of the good uh D5 project in the space everyone uh I'm Mar kvki one of the co-founders of cell uh cell is an evbm compatible L1 that is transitioning to an L2 currently and one thing that we did when we first uh designed cello was we we built a stable coin protocol um natively into the platform uh which now has uh spun out of the platform in uh a dow spin out which is kind of fun that that protocol is now called Mento and maybe you saw uh some of the folks from Mento on the stage earlier today speaking about it um but uh cell has focused a lot on real world use cases uh which includes mobile payments and so there's a lot of really great Mobile payment activity happening on c um in large part thanks to the fact that you can pay for gas with stable coins on the platform so yeah looking forward to chatting today hey guys um my name is Chris also spab boom online uh I started a project called Badger 3 years ago and uh we started with a simple Mission which which was how do you bring Bitcoin to defi we have a fundamental kind of uh belief that there's a you know an extraordinary amount of demand for Bitcoin to be used in finance and that should be used you know where people want to build uh Financial applications and we don't think that you know that network is the Bitcoin Network we instead think that network is ethereum and um you know the evm ecosystem so we designed and we're getting ready to launch a Bitcoin Peg stable coin called ebtc ebtc is very unique in the sense that it's uh the first CDP design that actually has um the the debt asset be um pegged to the Bitcoin price and it's backed exclusively by stake deth so what's interesting about the design is you know we charge no fees on the on borrowing ebtc and uh instead we take a percentage of the state de yield and we redirect directed to drive demand for ebtc so people that hold it or stake it can earn native yield that scales with the system and now you finally have the ability to earn some yield on Bitcoin in Defi and it's completely um permissionless and and transparent unlike you know our custodian brother that represents 97% of all tokenized Bitcoin on ethereum um nonetheless that's uh that's us who would that be I wonder I wonder who that is um hello everyone so my name is G nvo so I confounded angle protocol which is a decentralized St protocol and we started with AO so a EUR um a Euro stable coin uh it's been live since uh 2021 um there's not a huge Market on Europe but we strongly believe that in every area and every like like uh country there will be like not an emony of uh the stable dollar and so we really believe in this uh in this principle uh what also we want like to push forward is uh transparency we think that compare like to trade five that's where the 10x is um it could be on yeld but really transparency is the most is the most important one in our case and also like to um give access to yield to the end users uh which is not possible with centralized so that what we try to focus on um and we hope like to diversify the like to all all fat steps hi everyone my name is Darren uh I am from biget wallet um I'm basically the content director for biget wallet and currently biget wallet is one of the world's leading uh multi-chain wallets non-custodial wallets and we do have a lot of stable coins that are listed on there uh but beside from just trading we also do things like having a Deb browser NFC Marketplace um but really what we want to try to achieve is to provide a secure way for people to easily manage and access their assets uh while also also being able to grow their overall portfolio which is why we have a very powerful Dex aggregator um called biget swap right within our poet application and uh this is really what we feel is the Gateway towards allowing more mass onboarding to web 3 and also allowing for more meaningful access to basic things like staes and other kinds of digital assets that users might have thank you so much actually I think uh the first topic to discuss is very clear uh it will be what is a product Market fit in the stable coin category and what are the parameters how we can achieve it and what are the distribution channels to achieve it I think if anyone wants to start it uh we can just give it the floor sure I'll start um I think it's organic Demand right I think what we've seen with stable coins in these early stages is a lot of um demand that's driven by extraordinary incentives that don't really last and you know when you have something you can call a stable coin you can call it a crypto dollar you can call whatever you want like a few people have already talked about about you know usdt on Tron right or usdt in general I think Adrian you know a few panels ago talked about the type of um yield that you know is expected at you know convenience yield versus uh another type of yield but nonetheless like you think about something like that and and we all sit here and I I I don't want to stereotype but I would imagine not that many people use Tron in this room right maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm right but um nonetheless there's you know there's a pretty clear crossborder you know remittance use case for usdt um it's gotten certain type of Market penetration and now it it gives the ability for people to do um things that you know they really couldn't do with other stable coins in many instances um but you know it's about that organic demand it's people that want to hold the stable coin right and it's not people that just want to deposit stable coin in XYZ pool to earn 11% and then swap it to the other chain to to earn 133% and then swap it back to this chain to borrow this asset you know it's that's part of it but really it's about the organic demand I I think that's the biggest sign of product Market F on on top of that so basically like we describe like means of payment and I think like centralized T coin are more like suitable for that right now because like decentralized T coins are like harder like to have like being used offchain and so we at angle we not like trying to focus that much on payments like it would be great like to be used as payment but we want to be the backbone like in defy like because when you talk about like USD like some are using usdt some are are using usdc some are using like um pce USD like they are like very different means of payment and so we want to be in the Euros space be the backbone in Defi and so when you store this value you're going to like prefer to store it in ag and like earn this passive yield so we have like kind of the same product as maker so you can earn like 4% on your Euro Trias on chain and that's what we want to try to focus on down the line if there is like more things on chain maybe we could like tackle the uh payment system but I think like as a decentralized stable coin it would be like a really tough fight like to gain this Market um I think they they are based they are two different categories for people to use stable coin in defy um and outside in traditional finan Finance they have no interest or no incentive to use table coin because their infrastructure works very well for them is if you are in developed country then you want to chase um a yield interest and you want to make extra money on top of uh of your money but in developing country you want to use it as a store of value as you mentioned and for example here you want to make sure that you don't get inflated by the inflation rate that the economy is providing you um so you have two different types of people using stable coin one is chasing additional economical value on top of existing infrastructure that it works very well if they don't actually use it and in other part of the world it's more for hedging and trying to secure your lifestyle which is very different type of people in defi and we the technology is serving them in two different ways yeah yeah I just want to uh just backtrack a little bit and just talk a little bit about um how do you actually gauge product Market fit and how do you actually weigh the metrics um so I think for stable coin usage the kpis here are basically two things right number one it's about frequency of usage and number two it's about usage over a prolonged period of time and I think this is the end goal for stable coins right to achieve those kinds of objectives but how do you actually reach there I think there are three main stages yeah the first first is to have Progressive decentralization I think it's is something coined by Anderson harwitz a while back and what it says is basically that you need to form that kind of decentralized community that kind of strong people that are backing your stable coins vision and are able to empathize with your cause and really are in it for the faith that they have in your asset as opposed to for instance uh traditional or contemporary icos where you know people and investors come in uh because of speculative value right so I think in order to really have that kind of decentralized community you need to really build it from scratch even before your stable coin hits the market so that's the first thing and the second thing I think is is really about utility establishment how do you establish great utility for your stable coin you know um definitely you have your depth Engineers who are there to really build up the basic uh utility for a stable coin um but I think that really has to be put to the bedal and has really put to the test and I think the way to test it is you know through basic things like throughput like you know utility like scalability even things like value lockup right I think those are things that really have to be tested in the utility establishment phase and then forward after you're done with that you still have to go on to the final stage which is utility momentum and galvanizing utility and I think that's really one of the key stages to achieving the right product Market fit because this is the really the stage where your stable coin is likely going to face a lot of kind of programmability and additional vectors coming in based on the community they've built to increase the use case of your stable coins so you're talking about things like greater tokenization value greater implementation into other D5 protocols like game five social F and even you know even other things like you know things like flash loans collateralization burning right these are all the end game kind of utility that you want to achieve your stable coin and I think if you're able to go through all these three phases successfully I think that's how you really achieve a really good um when overarching product Market f for stable coin yeah thank you so much for the contribution and actually when I think of product Market fit in the ecosystem uh the first thing that comes to my mind is Teter for example if you just go to Grand Bazar inan or tax Square you will find physical crypto exchanges that trades Teta usdt so like it is clear that it's a product Market fit and we don't see it in the Crypt stable coin mechanisms or like CDP models or like defi native stable coins and like my question would be what should be the reason that until now we haven't seen any Crypt stable coin reaches the same level of usdt or usdc who wants to start yeah I think it was like the thing from so it's efficiency so right now like like off ramping uh uh centralized table coin is cheap while decentralized table coin in general is not because you don't have like bank account at the end that can give you dollar and so that's why like decentralized T coin it's super hard like to compete in the payment system and so that's why also I think it's okay like to lose this battle like against centralize stable coin but just then after that like try to improve other part of it and the other part of it is also like transparency like having access to life balance sheet having access to like what is the equity to like the ratio Equity depth of the of the step coin so having like some Metric of the protocol that is live and accessible by everyone so I think that even if it's not directly a product Market fit it like it proves the confidence of the user into your protocol or into your sa coin so I think that's what you want to improve as a decentralized St coin that is where there is like Improvement against straight F like you cannot like improve like the payment right now the payment system but you can improve like tons of other stuff and so that's why we want to focus on that at like angle yeah and and I would argue that it's it possibly entirely first mover Advantage right I think Fiat back stable coins um were easier to build and so they launched first and by launching first they were able to get network effects and keep those Network effects uh and grow them faster than anybody who followed afterwards and this is true of other fatback stable coins that stable coins that launched after tether as well right nobody was able to to kind of catch up and so I think the power of network network effects is real um and I think especially for medium exchange type use cases um you know it just makes sense that that tether ended up um you know just being able to grow faster than others now that doesn't mean that you know there's no room for other stable coins I think certainly there's other use cases you know we talked about store value as well um and and there's many other types of stable coins that can be back pegged to different currencies so I think there's lots of opportunity to compete but yeah if we think about why this has happened you know I would I would just you know assume it's it's just really for SM Advantage yeah I would say uh scalability as well like we always talk about the trilemma the the trilemma of uh stable coins it's infinitely more you know scalable I'd say but you know you brought up a good point which is you know defining it as fatback stable coins because stable coins can take so many shapes and sizes right and I think that's where like that's why I like calling it crypto dollars because it's you know a stable coin doesn't necessarily and and even the question you know is kind of referencing like usdt is intending to be pegged to the US dollar so maybe they won that you know they won that race but that's just the US dollar right we we there was a conversation earlier today about you know as the world changes as the economies changes as the economies change there's potentially room for being denominated in other types of currencies right like that was always the belief of Bitcoin in particular is mebe maybe this could be the Global Currency right it could be a you know a crossborder um you know unified currency so when we think about stable coins we shouldn't necessarily think explicitly about USD based stable coins like honestly I think you know all of us Builders are doing the US a big favor and building you know building all these uh USD based stable coins but it's not the only flavor but for the flavor that is you know um usdt I think you know the rails are infinitely more scalable than trying to repeat that exclusively on chain um I think coming back to your question we um I don't think we answer the question which was um or maybe you tried to answer the question by the first mover um in the market why in people in Grand Baza are using usdt and I'm sorry I don't think it's because of transparency and that the point is they're using usdt because it's simple to use and it's m it's connected to tr institutional way of of of using the money and it's not because you build something that is transparent and and and is more robust or whatever that people will be using it I don't think I can trust people don't care about in in Grand Bazar they don't care about decentralization they don't care about transparency what they want is to either hedge cover the the their style making sure they don't get damaged by the economy they have no interest no economical value in transparency so this is always kind of funny um I believe in in a talk of stoc coin and the first mover is kind of true but not exactly accurate because maker Dow was one the first one to issue uh a stoc coin and today they are not necessarily the one that is mostly representated in the defi space we only talking about centralized stab coin like usdt or usdc so the real question is why those guys are not transparent not necessarily uh the best uh uh technology being used massively across defi or outside it's because they use institutional product they basically make it easy for people to be able to access the stable coin to access money and those people that are accessing the money they don't care if it's transparent they don't care if it's using a typical blockchain what they want is to s solve their problem they want something that solve their problem and in Grand Bazar the inflation rate is so huge here that they just want to be exposed to something that is less uh risky that's the so first adopter is not true because maker was the first adopter and then secondly decentralization we have multiple different stable coin in a space that are fully decentralized transparent but guess what no one is necessarily using it to the scale of order of magnitude that you can use in traditional mark Market yeah I just want to quickly hop on to to the last part actually on the idea of of transparency because uh I want to bring in the idea on Regulatory Compliance uh because I'm from Singapore and Singapore right now is pretty hostile against crypto in general um I'll quote one the examples from the monetary authority of Singapore in terms of uh supporting stable coins and that is that stable coins need to have uh return of par value which means that stable coin issuers in Singapore need to be able to return the par value of the stable coin um to the requester within 5 days of that Redemption request so I think you know a lot of the the projects uh in Singapore especially they're trying to VI for these kinds of credentials to be able to issue stable coins within the country and within the region themselves are also trying to Vive for this idea of transparency and Regulatory Compliance I think that's not something that um we might have talked about enough um but I think in terms of really achieving that kind of mass adoption for stable coins and users um that's probably a really big Turning Point um I think we really need to work towards and find ways in which you know especially decentralized stable coins how can they achieve that kind of Regulatory Compliance that is really important for Mass adoption as well yeah great actually as far as I understand everyone has also think that uh while Fiat back stable coins in some ways find the product Market feeds reach millions of people Crypt back stable coins are uh not that level so we and also we discussed the reasons for it but like let's talk about how we can solve this problem or whether if it is a problem like what can be the distribution channels What can be the tools uh for decentralized stable coins for or like CDP model stable coins to achieve product Market fit and reach these levels yeah I can start um you know I I I again I think what is you have to Define what a stable coin is right like if you're talking about like I I don't really buy into this you know what can we do what can USD base to centralized stable coins due to displace tether like I I just think about specific use cases in particular so you know when I think about a stable coin and everyone kind of looks looks at me you know upside down when I say you we're building a Bitcoin Peg stable coin they're like well there's Bitcoin already well you know a lot of people said the same thing about Euro dollars I mean about dollars in general before Euro dollars came out and you know I think many of us know how that ended up but you know I think when you when you think about the use user and what the user wants again there naturally needs to be you know organic demand and for us in particular with the Bitcoin Peg stable coin it's a bit different right I agree with you Julian like do people you know that are trying to ARB the you know economic inefficiencies of their currency and inflation give a [ __ ] about decentralization of course they don't they don't care at all but a user in in our instance for example that wants to hold a representation of Bitcoin wants it to be stable and wants to have utility for it in defi different group right Baza people I don't believe no no I know I'm I know I know that I'm I'm just saying there's different users right of course yeah and and you know that's when you when you think about stable coins you also got to think about those users and what those users want and actually care about and then you need to tailor those crypto dollars and the designs of those crypto dollars to service those users so if that means stability and transparency is really important and utility well there needs to be designed that actually lend themselves to do that at scale not for you know a month when a liquidity pool goes to like a billion dollars and then goes to mlion the thing is like you uh you can make a test you could build the most transparent St coin on the market and have one of the most off fiscated centralized tcoin and I can bet with you that you will have more liquidity in this one than the one is more decentralized at the same the same moment in history that the build people will be putting more money in the one that's completely hidden there's no transparency no information about decentralized Authority that issuing good rate than someone that is actually doing a fully decentralized protocol but so I agree on that I agree like again on the example of like um Istanbul it's because as you said it's not a store of values people are like needing it and they're going to spend it like quite quickly if you hold it for some time maybe at some I hope at some point like people like users or like accredited investor they don't spend it they immediately cash out in in usdt but then they keep it in the saving bank account in the app or but they not holding the usdt that's what I mean they do they do okay but in any case like as a store value I would be like more confident and I hope it would change that's what happened with FTX too I mean for most people in in in in in Europe store of value means something going up but for most people people here is something not going down so store value is still something it's not because it doesn't go up but it's not a store of value for most people is not losing money which is St value still yeah but like for instance like the FTX FTX uh episode uh we can call it like that in the end you would have like prefer something that is fully transparent and something that didn't go that way so I I feel like even if it's it's good enough like for for the for the economy and for the state of like where it is right now but I I think it could be better and I agree that like it improves the situation but I think like transparency could improve it a little bit better and I agree that it's not enough like to capture the market for sure it's not enough because it's like again like a payment solution or something like that and like at uh angle maybe we're not like targeting this kind of users because we are not like competitive against usdt against usdc as you say like payment system is super cheap for them because they have a bank account they have something like that so they they can cash it out but we can't do that like at angle because it's decentralized and so we're not like trying to to fight for this Market I think there as you said it there is like multiple markets and so that's why we continue in this can please continue if I can add like FTX csuse rager all those different guys just emphasize my point they were like super fiscated super uh centralized but guess what they were the biggest player in the place meaning that people will for how long though H for how long right like that's the whole point like my point yeah my point is um in defi space we're trying to articulate a pitch where if we bring the most um transparent and and whatever people will start adopting it but I don't think this is true because people have different interest and their interest doesn't sit in something that fully decentralized it is if it solve the problem if you have some something that solve their problem and at the same time is fully transparent and decentralized then it will be perfect scenario of course and we all aiming for that but saying that someone will jump into your product because it's decentralized and transparent I think this is all [ __ ] I I agree I think it is total [ __ ] I I think anybody that thinks if you design something and users are going to start banging on your door because it's ridiculously decentralized you're totally clueless right there there's no doubt about that I think you know over time hopefully we see a progression towards valuing this decentralization more but in the end of the day you're going to have to service the user for what they want and if there's more transparency around that right I think that's better for everyone the user you know the state of the space all those types of things but I agree that decentralization is not going to win the race only yeah and I think I would focus on other things that users want right so transparency Some People Want it um but you know folks want um other features in their money right I think I think for some people uh having something that is a unit of count to their local currency is appealing and there's a lot of stable coin opportunities uh right now that aren't met by uh Fiat back stable coins and where actually Fiat back stable coins might actually move slower than decentralized stable coins uh due to the licensing requirements in a lot of these different countries and so there's lots of opportunities to launch stable coins pck to new currencies all over the world um I think there's a lot of utility in doing um either defi or payments in currencies that are pegged to local currencies it's just easier for people to think about um and while some people might want US dollar based stable coins for store value there may be medium of uh exchange use cases or unit of account use cases where other stable coins can actually be quite beneficial and then there's other features that might be useful right I think there's whole class of stable coins that are created for example by um backing uh money by things like tokenized trees or things that we want to see more of in the world um these are more experimental and um but it could be very well the case especially as climate change continues to get worse and worse that people will actually um find a lot of value in using stable coins that are backed by things that can help fight climate change and so it'll be interesting to see if any of these things really explode but um certainly there are many other properties that we can bring about to our stable coins that can help compete against some of the uh existing stable coins today yeah I think another point on that is uh especially if I'm an ordinary user right let's say in turkey or in Singapore when I'm using stable coins to make my payment right I want to be able to be able to make my payment in a very seamless manner um in Singapore we have something called a based credit card which basically is a company that's worked very closely with Visa that allows you to onramp uh stable coins into their wallet and then you can directly use the card to pay for your purchases that from any vendor that accepts Visa payments and I think that is a really good way to onboard more users to use stable coins regardless whether or not you know they're centralized decentralized whatever transparent whatever not um I think you know having the hardware in place really helps to accelerate that adoption as well and the next thing is is about cdps right I think that was part of the question on cdps as well you know when when I have cized that behind my my my stable coin I don't want my stable coin to be over bized right cuz that hurts the overall liquidity that goes into that's available for users and also that runs the risk of you know what happens if the collateral goes below market value you goes below Market that that means your stable coin becomes at risk right and that's not what I want from a stable coin as well so I think these are things that we really need to consider uh when trying to achieve again that product Market fit and as a user himself I want to be able to rely upon my stable coin as a reliable medium for exchange or medium for income medium for for for you know trading people even if it's just storing my assets in between my trading Cycles right that's something that I want to be able to rely upon uh I want to actually discuss another topic since we are in stanbul uh in our daily lives we don't use dollars for transactions but we use Turkish thas so actually like considering this uh what will be your opinion regarding the product Market fit of non USD stable coins like this is also another topic that I think we should discuss any thoughts on that yeah May angle can start yeah so yeah we totally agree that like the emony of like USD in in the stable um Market is like huge and my guess like because we've been like for two years and there is not like a huge demand for like Euro St coin like we experience it um and I think it's just because like most like crypto users are like looking for yields right now on chain and so yield is just like both to US USD and what we believe is that if this Market is going to be saturated imagine if it just like incentives start stop to flow or something like that there will be more connection to offchain offchain asset or offchain like kind of representation and so you will be directly linked to your economy and so that's why like right now there's no much link with the direct economy you're just like trying to earn some Yield store value on chain and if there is more connection with offchain offchain like the offchain there will be more demand for like typical stable coin from like some area or from some country like in in the the jerkish L and so that's what the narrative it is and I think we are starting to go there it's it's a pretty long journey but I think we'll go there like because they they would be more tight to um option asset we started with the real war asset so with a lot of T bills right now that are flowing in into the into onchain and again like right now it's still some yeld but as it decrease in in in defi it start to be a bit like attractive and I think it's kind of like a way like to enter this Market too and I hope at some point like companies will um emit depth directly on chain and so it would be like a new use case and and you would be like more tempted to have like Euro saber coin or like Turkish Le C coin or something like that yeah and I think one really interesting use case of um non US dollar stable coins could be um in the future um as a medium for on ramping um new users into web 3 so if you think about the future where everyone is using web3 products um normies are very comfortable uh on boarding uh into web 3 you could imagine a future where people are cashing in from Fiat local stable coin local Fiat into local stable coins and that's the first action that they perform in order to enter web 3 and it's an appealing action because you can do this without um having to take any currency risk and if you can pay for gas with these local stable coins which you can do on C and with a account abstraction you'll be able to do in the future uh pretty much in every chain um then you can actually have people on board by caching into a local stable coin and then perhaps buying a US dollar stable coin if they want to use it as a store of value or you know buy an nft uh or you know put that into Defi and start interacting with web 3 and if once we have that that flow then suddenly decentralized protocols start looking like centralized protocols right if you're cashing into an exchange typically the first thing you do is you wire a local Fiat into uh an account uh that that exchange has uh in in in local Fiat and and then you have a database entry that represents your balance on that exchange and then you can start doing things with that money the same thing is possible with stable coins where you're cashing in uh to a local stablecoin but you're doing it in a self- custodial way and then from then on you can start interacting with defi much like today you know folks interact with CI so I'm pretty excited about that future I think it's going to be good for decentralization it's going to be really good for self custody but I do think that for this to happen globally we need stable coins for every Market in the world and critically we need to make it possible for people to pay for gas with those stable coins yeah I I think um there is going to be an explosion of non-usd stable coins and local uh currency based stable coins even if you look at how you know some of these places are are driving stable coin Demand right now it's usually our Arbitrage against their local currency and store value because of um in many instances you know inflation or hyperinflation in their local currency so I think stable coins to your point America is just going to make it easier right if you can go from cash into that local stable coin and then you know in a couple clicks for you know a few you know few cents be able to get into something with a better store value so you can escape some type of inflation while also being able to get back into the local currency not the digital local currency that would be kind of just that hop get back into that local currency so you can do stuff every day like I think that's the the step even before you walk into you know Istanbul and you see you know a a digital Turkish L accepted at every store right first it's going to be you know the ability to get the off-ramp and be able to have an opportunity to have a store of value outside of a currency that's inflating so much and then that will require in most instances a lot of tokenized local currencies and a lot of different um stable coins in that manner yeah actually on that point I really agree with the idea on you know being able to onramp stable coins very easily and being able to actually use them as a reliable medum of exchange and actually that's what big wallet does uh so we do have uh very powerful on- ramping tools that gives you usdt um in exchange for a Fiat um and of course you can pay for those gas fees uh using your USD as well so you don't actually need to hold on to them prior to performing that swap which I think really helps to to create that seamless pathway for for onboarding users and additionally I think um you know holding stable coins like you know what you mentioned earlier about you know hedging against inflation I think it's also a really useful way to hedge against you know trading Cycles you know if you're holding eth you know you want to hold it in a more secure way because you're not sure if the market is too volatile you know you can still hold on to the usdt or other kind of stable coins to you know just hold your position for a while before you jump into another trading action that you want to take and again you know holding in a non-custodial way is going to be really really important because that gives you the kind of ownership of your assets um you know I think that really provides an additional lay of security which is also what big wallet provides as well so I think you know in summation definitely un ramping stable coins into wallets is going to be very very important and also being able to use those stable coins in a meaningful manner is also going to be equally important as well um it's interesting how the the space is evolving like um we all been saying that usdt is centralized and and is quite dangerous to use but guess what we all using it and the biggest market cap of stable coin is old in this asset and so the ecosystem has been criticizing this kind of way of doing uh things in the space but usdt actually managed somehow to execute perfectly in the two different walls One In traditional finance and one in defi they had the connection with at some point with Regulators at the beginning with Market maker people providing liquidity tapping into the biggest Market of money in the world institutional money and they also had the uh the the power of execution to be the early one to deploy on Smart contract interacting with curve different pool of liquidity so they understand the two walls us we were saying okay we cannot deal with those guys in centralized institution but guess what today now we are chasing them we are saying okay we need to open the door to real world asset in order for us to increase the liquidity because kind of the uh isolated uh world where liquidity is not really uh represented so the only way to bring money is to actually open the gate to real world asset this is what we're doing so for example angle has been doing a very good job with a project called backed Finance bringing ETF and the type of uh Structured Products or exotic type of things into and also s has been doing a really good job there um but what's important is like okay we opening the door and we getting our step uh our foot into this type of Institutions but it's also a double side of the SW where we also bringing all the different concept of traditional Finance what they really like which is kyc ml so what we're doing at the moment we turning defi into a little bit more tread and what we should do and where we should be focused is what ther did is trying to use the defi products to solve existing problem or the traditional Market and if we do that this will be successful I mean in term of scalability and if you want to build a project that scale very fast and make it um a lot of uh liquidity or tvl this is the way you should approach the matter it's not necessarily it's like using kind of a traditional way of doing things but using defy to solve existing problem that you have in space and stable coin can actually outperform if you do this re asset um using the collateral isolated pool of liquidity this is where we're all moving mint a stable coin on top like angle is doing I think this is a way that we can actually achieve quite tremendous amount of of success thank you so much actually I believe we are a bit out of time so uh we need to wrap things up so I think that uh in this General conversation as far as I see like uh at this point there are couple of problems like regarding decentralization whether decentralization is a part of product Market fit or not or uh how we can find ways to bring defield into thread file or like or whether thread file yield into uh defi these are different ways or also the use cases in uh Emerging Market is also another topic and I think like this was a very productive conversation we saw how we can uh detect the problems or we suggested solutions to that so uh thank you for all your contribution and thanks for our audience for listening I think we can get one question I hope nobody wants to have our after party I guess okay one last question is there any question anybody would like to ask question I think I see your hand I yes do you believe that uh crypto focused CPI can help us achieve better product Market fit especially if it is inflation projected can can you repeat the question absolutely can Consumer Price Index at this crypto native and inflation protected help us increase product Market fit I I think that's a a diff you know we talk again I've said it many times but there's all different flavors of stable coins right and you know we've seen some of those coins and particular I think fra has one with their fpis and again it serves a different use case so I think we're going to continue to see all these different use cases serving different um specific demands and you know what's interesting about building these things on Smart contracts is you know these things that immediately come become composable obviously they have the extreme transparency but I do think that you know something tracked to the CPI can see some pretty big adoption and I think it could just be part of the puzzle of a variety of different uh stable coin flavors or crypto dollar flavors that service different users in different places thank you so much and thanks again for being here and listening us [Applause]