Panel | Is the Yield Competitive?

It's funny. I was sitting at a, you know, a a lunch, this is now a year ago, digital asset summit where, uh, you know, a crypto founder was, you know, talking to a room of institutional allocators and traditional businesses and said, "Hey, like Bidd is, you know, a billion dollars. Like, doesn't that get you excited?" And, you know, one of the asset managers was like, "A billion dollars, you know, raise your hand." Was like, "A billion dollars is nothing to us.

You know, we're an $8 trillion asset manager." And so now only with like clear regulation um you know are are these folks moving to the space. I would say for us you know what changed is we were always architected around um traditional asset managers as custodian. So State Street has been our custodian since day one. Vanak is the asset manager.

Um and uh what it did change is now we're you becoming a federal bank. Um which you know even a year ago I would have never thought I would have to do but um you know we announced our filing for the OCC. um you know a few months ago and have been going through that process and you know so that I would say is really been like the major change from genius is you bringing traditional businesses into the space through you know the comfort to do so but also you know putting a bank regulator in charge of of stable coins

I definitely agree I think uh with more regulations we have more companies that are comfortable using stable coins uh at CAP we're in the business of lending stable coins you know we lend stable coins to film productions to HFT firms to manufacturing plans and if they're not comfortable holding stable coins, we can't lend stable coins to them. And so now what we've seen since Genius Act and now with the incoming Clarity Act, um we have a ton of traditional businesses that have never used crypto before that are comfortable borrowing stable coins.

And did you need to engineer like your architecture about about the regulation? Like

uh well, we're not a asset issuer. Yeah. Um I guess we could have gone the way of making our own stable coin and then using that to then lend to people but then we would have to do everything over again, right? Uh on and off ramps, liquidity, etc. We would also have to worry about Genius Act.

Um but instead we decide to build on top of stable coins such as like uh what you would have at Agora or FRA. Um and so we rely on their infrastructure.

I think the way we do things is probably a bit different from uh all the other speakers uh here because we on the FX side we don't have to comply just as Sam correctly said we're building a decentralized coin. So the idea is is to actually offer something resilient whatever happens whether it's an regulatory change or whatever. So the idea is that we abstract trust completely from uh interacting with the stable coin. So you don't need to trust any custodian. You don't need to trust any government decision.

You don't need to trust any asset manager. You just need to trust the code which has been a audited 16 times and tested over time. So it's a completely different approach that didn't require for us to change anything because we want things to not change actually.

Okay. uh in your case definitely not maybe it uh kind of navigates the your customer base and and use cases but definitely you need to change things. Okay, let's move uh to u question where where uh in your design the yield actually is coming from and who bears the risk. Uh yeah, I can I can start. Actually, Ben said something really interesting the the last question, which is like they lend stable coins, right?

Um there's basically two types of stable coins. One is stable coins that are not lent and they're not backed by initial debt, right? They're only backed by government treasury debt, right? Which is the asset you're pegging to the dollar, right? And those are the things that are accepted widely as as payments.

If you actually go read the Genius Act, the name for the stable coin that is Genius compliant is called a payment stable coin. It's meant to actually be accepted in a in wide economic activity in in banking, in commerce, and everything as a unit for a dollar. And that's a very different function than a thing that looks like a dollar that pays you yield, right? like you're not going to have banks, merchants, Visa, cards, networks, except pay things that look like a dollar, but they're actually yield products. Th those are two very different very large big markets individually, but they're very different even though they're called a dollar, right?

And so stable coins like Agoras USD or like FRAUSD where the goal is to maximize the amount of places that accept it as payments as a digital dollar. The only way you can give yield is up to a uh treasury yield, right? The risk-free rate that complies with the Genius Act. Now eventually once a bunch of places accept the stable coin, some people would want to borrow it. You can create debt denominated in it.

uh platforms like Cap Money can actually start using it to issue their own kind of notes, right? There's like something called Cap USD which is a token that pays yield, right? Which is not a payment stable coin, right? But it's a yield stable coin that is a dollar denominated asset. So these are two very different things, right?

And so for these things, there's essentially a fork in the road. You either go in the maximized payment acceptance strategy or you go in the maximized good riskadjusted yield strategy. You can't do both by definition.

I mean for us to just to answer your question um you know our yield is very different right it's not risk-f free it comes from the economy so instead of getting the US treasuries rate we give you access to a wide range of economic players anywhere from HFC firms like Susuhana or IMC trading all the way to film productions in Hollywood to manufacturing plants in Boston or in Europe. uh we give you yield from all of those activities and we've packaged it in a highly liquid instrument that's much more liquid than you would see like on a pole or an Aries because um our platform functions like a vending machine. You know, you can get your money in and out and you will get it very quickly because everything that um every every part of the system that touches money is automated. Uh and so we're able to make the system more liquid. Um how do we cover the downside?

Who takes the risk? Well, on the back end, we have a credit default swap system, right? Uh a whole marketplace of credit default swaps where uh institutions, not retail, get to underwrite each and uh every one of these loans that we're giving out so that our retail depositors that are not on the sophisticated side are maximally protected from from these defaults.

Yeah. And then for us, just how we're structured, it's very vanilla. Uh State Street's like the asset manager of the Agora Reserve Fund or sorry, they're the cash custodian of the Agor Reserve Fund. Uh Van is the investment manager that's in re overnight reverse repo shortdated US treasury bills uh and cash at gibs. Uh so we primarily use five different counterparties and then we also have to have um you know additional banks uh for minting and redeeming and the reason that we use that is for our customers right so and no pun intended customers bank is actually one of the most frequently used banks because they have a 247 uh fiat ledger system and they're one of the few banks uh that can move move money uh between you know counterparties within that system on a 24/7 basis which is great and so we have cash there and and one or to other banks um that are useful for us and for our customers.

You know, obviously trading firms really like that and and payment businesses as well, but very straightforward in terms of our construction. We're not natively yield bearing. Um and so you know we acrew that the interest uh from the reserve fund and then we have you know what we call the AUSD loyalty rewards program where we can distribute uh and share revenue with uh you know customers and clients of ours that are KYB and then they can choose to do with that you know what they wish

and on our end all the yield generated is generated by onchain activity so there's two kinds of users on FX those who want to borrow against ether BTC and gets probably the cheapest and safest place to do so they just pay a onetime fee and those fees goes to the stable yield strategy. FXUSD natively doesn't earn any yield but you can stake it or stake USDC to contribute to keeping FXUSD spec and when you do that you earn the protocol revenue and the main risks are mostly due to volatility. So whenever the capital is very volatile, uh there could be a risk for uh the backing of the stable coin and when there's a huge selling pressure on the stable coin, it could also lose its peg. But we integrated the whole peg keeping mechanism and a very innovative liquidation design to make sure uh FXUSD is always overcolaterized and with the perfect peg without having to rely on external parties, market makers or whatsoever. It's completely protocol integrated into the the code basically that you can check anytime and we deliver right now current something like 9% APR on $60 million completely organically transparently without having to rely on on anyone.

Okay. Uh thanks and since you already touched on uh on the actual yield I just wanted to uh like a bit segue of it uh because you all mentioned that you don't really compete on the yield itself uh or you compete on the on the multiple factors uh in distribution customers uh the risk risk uh can you go more in detail on who is your customer or and also if there is other competitive advantage you uh kind of pursue

yeah I mean what I'd say is I I really don't like when people lump stable coins into like one bucket because they're very different. You know, what people refer to as stable coins can be very different products in very different markets. Like the way that I think to oversimplify a bit is think of like stable coins as like the fixed income market. Um right like you know some people are providing yield and that's why people uh hold those stable coins but what is a payment stable coin under Genius? They are not allowed to pay yield, right?

And so the definition like legally of a stable coin is you they don't pay yield but a lot of stable coin stable coins do right you know another big one is of course Athena sky um etc. So for us the main reason uh that I think people um are using you know AUSD today is for payments for trading but really that all stems from like our integrations into different applications right so you I was meeting with uh you know a vault provider you know earlier this morning right people use AUSD to create their fund products right and then you know there's many different things that people may do with those fund products they may lever it up on chain or or do other things, but that's just like an additional node in our network that makes AUSD have utility, right? I would say the stable coin with the most utility today is, you know, this could be, you know, big argument, but it's probably uh to be honest. Obviously, Tether is is the largest, but USDC probably has the the most uh utility when it comes to traditional applications. For us, we're trying to compete with that, right?

like that is exactly like our market, you know, similar to how there's a number of very large payment companies today, right? Uh I think there'll probably be five to 10 very large global stable coin issuers that are multi-utility and have a large liquidity. That's what we're aiming for. And so we work with a variety of different types of companies to start to build that utility. You know, vaults is one, Perpex is another, payment businesses, you know, is another, neo banks, etc.

And so, you know, eventually our hope is that our acceptance network is so large that it's self-sustaining and people just build on it because it can attract clients for them, right? It's why USDC today is largely the default is because, you know, most people have it, most people use it, it's widely accessible. And so, if you are an application builder, most people start there. Uh, and so that's, you know, our market and and who we're really competing with. I think, you know, a number of these, you know, folks on stage we've worked with before, right?

because they have unique applications that attract users and we want, you know, to take part in that.

Yeah, I think we definitely all compete on different things, right? Um, we're not a stable coin, so we won't uh go to chains to try to white label stable coins or anything like this. Um, our susex metric is how many companies can we on board to use our platform, right? Can we have a manufacturing plant in Korea borrowing from us? Can we have a trade financing firm, you know, borrowing from us?

that's uh really who we're trying to onboard. There's not many people doing that on chain. And so to be honest with you, we're not necessarily competing with with anybody on chain. We're competing with a lot of credit funds, boutique credit funds, uh outside of the blockchain. And uh can we be faster or cheaper or both?

Uh that's really, you know, what we're trying to do on the supply side. On the dollar side, yes, sure. There's many products on chain that give yield like you can put your money on FX, you can put your money with CAP or or FRA, etc. to earn yield, but they're wildly different products. And I think the user bases are completely different.

Yeah. I'll just uh I'll just give a direct example from this stage here. Uh like FRAUSD is a redeemable dollar, right? It's genius compliant like like Agora. And so uh we actually instead of a loyalty program stream the risk-free rate to different hubs uh onchain.

One of them is curve. So if you have like a curve pool with a bunch of FRAUS USD in it, it's like having USDC, but then every day you get streamed the risk-free rate based on how much of the FRAUSD balance is in their wall circle keeps it all, right? It goes part of to their revenue. Uh same thing with A. A recently added FRAUSD in their V4, right?

And if you lend, uh you'll get the risk-free rate, right? And then whatever borrowers pay. And so for example, uh, FXUSD has a curve pool with FRAUSD because one of the things is that if you have a redeemable digital dollar, these synthetic dollars have to have some decentralized liquidity, right? So that that people can trade against it at a dollar. And so we actually stream the risk-free rate into the FXUSD pair that actually helps create even more loans for the FX protocol because there's a deeper peg for the synthetic decentralized stable coin, right?

And so we there's just a lot of things that uh we really don't compete uh and it's actually synergistic. So like one of our goals would be if if CAP starts denominating some of their uh lending right in in FRAUSD or AUSD for for Agore right instead of USDC right these are totally different layers uh the same way that for example in the traditional uh financial system banking money M2 money is totally different from M1 right so that there's this layering uh that's happening where genius compliance stable coins are essentially M1 they're kind of the kind of monetary base of the uh crypto ecosystem and then the M2 money right which is like the debt denominated that on demand can get turned into M1 right is what people like cap are building uh and so I think it's it's really interesting because if you know where you are in the financial ecosystem you can bring a lot of value to to everyone else

actually I would say the um projects like FRA or like Agora are competing a lot more with money market funds Um if you look at Genius Act or um now the Clarity Act, they don't uh limit how these money market funds can pass on yield to their users. And so they've been completely left uh untouched and they can now uh service as dollars onchain. They're pegged to the dollar. They're very easy to on and off ramp. You can on ramp a billion dollars of Benji without a problem and Franklin Templeton will service that for you.

You don't need to go through a a third party provider. Uh which is fantastic. I mean even for us, right? why wouldn't we just lend Benjies or or something like this? That's just cuz they're they're slow compared to like Circle.

Uh but um I I really see that being an interesting battle coming up. Stable coins versus money market funds.

Yeah, just to add super quick on that, uh since we built FRAUSD very recently, right, the during the same year, Genius Pass, a lot of our backing actually is not bank deposits, but tokenized money market funds just like as as Ben's saying. Um and it's actually onchain. Uh it's backed by Bidd USB, which is a superstate RWA that's genius compliant. And so we've actually purposely designed it in a way where it's in all of these RWA uh issuers's interest. Like if you issue a money market fund uh on chain and your KPI is to grow AUMumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumum, one of the things you probably want to do is come talk to us and say can we get part of the FRAUSD supply to actually hold our tokenized money market fund.

Uh because the more people use FRAUSD, the more the supply grows, the more their AUM grows. So it's actually we've you're right in that we we do kind of compete but we've flipped it around in the sense that

that's how much you want to uh vertically integrate. I feel like you guys are pretty vertically integrated, right?

I we're very vertically integrated. Like our view is like you want to own the rails. Uh because then ultimately like this is a scale game, right? And so if you can get marginal basis points, you know, I was talking with Sam about this before, right? Because of genius, you know, ex a certain percentage of uh your backing will need to be in bank deposits, like I want to be able to go to, you know, JP Morgan or whoever and say, "Hey, give me EFR minus like 10 basis points, right?"

Um and and that's, you know, that that makes a difference, right? um on your economics and then what you can give out to partners. What I'd say that's slightly different is I don't really view us as competing with like money market funds as much as I view us competing with like uh the Euro dollar market and dollar deposit accounts offshore where you either are earning really low yield on your balances or there's a very large you know transfer time right um and you know even Robin Hood right has talked about how they use stable coins for inter company transfers like that's the market that we're going after I think stable coins um outside the United States are 10 to 100 times s more valuable than within the United States. I think they'll of course be adopted within the US, but like our focus is really eating that uh Euro dollar market. And yeah, regarding competition on our side, competition is very very low because decentralized stable coins are like 3% of the 300 billion stable coins.

So we're on a blue ocean niche. And I think that as the others pointed there's good synergies actually between the different models. So we need um compliance stable coins for offramping and they could also need the competitive yield we generate to add some yield on top of their product as well. So there's good synergies and we the ecosystem probably needs both different approaches. Yeah, I think it's a good connection between the the yield and distribution uh like between you guys.

Uh so let's just quick follow-up question on uh how do you use or if so uh yield for uh distribution or creating the partnerships like do do you share with the your partners and uh because since we cannot share really with the with the retail user that's that's the strategy right?

Yeah. So for us it's businesses right and that could be payment companies it can be perplexes it could be you know asset managers whomever right and it's very much businessoriented where we you know basically track the assets that they're holding pay through to them and say hey you can choose to do with it what you want um you know which is I've always thought was the better strategy because they're you know there are very many different businesses that we interact with and they know how to to best use uh money money and spend for their business and so that's how we work.

Yeah. Uh for us it's uh essentially uh onchain uh yield streaming of the risk-free rate in the most important defy hubs on on the most important chains. So I already gave curve and a as like an example but if you go right now and lend frad on a you'll get around like uh 9 or 1% or something uh from borrowers um just because there's not a lot of borrowing right now but you'll also get uh 3.4 4 uh something last time I looked of the risk-free rate. So when you add up all of that in total for lending frad a genius compliant redeemable safe stable coin into a you'll get about 4%.

Um and that's constant. It's not just a uh campaign or like an airdrop. It's a mechanism that we've built in partnership with a uh it's a mechanism we've built in partnership with Curve and and the Curve pools and we're building a lot of them in really important places. So you could kind of think of it as like a DeFi uh risk-free rate loyalty program that is onchain. You can see what the balances are, the history of the streaming to the individual addresses.

Um it's like if you wanted to redesign fiat coins, right? But for 2026, how would you do it? You would distribute this for activity, right? Which is very different than idle holding, right? which is what banks are trying to essentially prevent in the Clarity Act where you don't just hold a stable coin idle and you get the the money market fund essentially right you have to actually put it somewhere and that's fine with us right our goal is to make our FRAUSD stable coin used everywhere and the way to do that is to bring the actual yield into those specific places

okay thanks

yeah I think uh there used to be a time where a lot of the the way that you grow your stable coin was through integrations uh of defi like you would go to a for leverage or you go to um lending markets, other lending markets, maybe Olympus DAO for for deposits, but now it's really the neo banks and maybe the chains. And so um you know the biggest guys like let's say Sky, if Sky is depositing into you, you're getting a lot of TVL. If um you know, Justin Sun, if you know, EtherFi, like these are the guys that are really the big depositors into all these protocols and uh if they're not using your protocols, you're you're not growing. Um, and so I think the game has definitely changed to more sophisticated players, which means you don't necessarily have to have 20% yield. You just need to have something that's willing like enough to convince these sophisticated players.

Yeah. And something sustainable.

And that's bare market too. There's just not no no retails to to to use the protocol right now.

Yeah. Really?

Okay.

And on our end is very simple. We distribute the yield to the users. That's no shenanigans. And then you can you can just you we we harness D5 composibility. You can just use FXA on Morpho on Pendle on other protocols to just yeah harness defi the beauty of D5 compos composability with minimized trust.

Okay. Yeah. Uh that comes from the design differences for sure. Uh so let's talk more about uh the design itself. uh are we converging into some dominant design at least for particular uh use cases like we discussed the difference between payment and yield stable coins?

No.

No.

Outside of genius, right, where there's very clear regulations, right? This is like the, you know, it's like if the fixed income market, right? There's new different types of fixed income products, you know, every single week. Uh people are still coming up with new fund structured products to this day in traditional markets. And so I don't think there will be any convergence on different types of models.

I think this is still extremely early days for yield coins. Um so no

well actually I think today in the yieldcoin world everybody has moved away from you know what strategy are you running like are you doing some delta neutral strategy are are you a CDP stable coin we've moved all away from that into allocation. So Sky is a fund of funds Ethena is a fund of funds or private credit whatever you want to call it. um and they're all just allocating and so um I I do think we're all converging in the altcoin space at size everybody's an allocation engine and then who is the better allocation engine right Athena is okay an internal team making all the decisions um sky is you have this bigger group of a committee of different maybe Dows or maybe subdows that are allocating the funds a cap you know we have rules right we have this credit default subsystem to allocate capital and u your your analys of who's better will depend on who do you think is allocating capital better but definitely we're all moving to that at the moment in the alken space

we're not we're building a primitive to let allocators use it it's I guess different different approach

uh yeah I think it depends on your definition of of converging um for me the answer is yes and everything's converging on two types of things it's the digital dollar that's compliant, redeemable, and some a few of them will have large economic activity denominated in them. Widespread merchant acceptance, bank acceptance, right? Uh as as uh Nick was saying, USDC has probably the the biggest lead in in this area. And then there's everything else. There's the yieldbearing uh assets that look like dollars, but they're really, as uh Ben said very accurately, they're debt denominated in dollars and they're tokenized.

Right? You're not going to get a merchant to say, "Oh, I, you know, I accept this uh private credit note uh ticker that has USD in it, right? They'll say they accept USDC hopefully for AXUSD, AUSD, uh some other, you know, genius compliance stable coins. They'll hold those, right, for like the days commerce and then as they have a savings account or a finance department, they'll distribute that into the savings product that actually makes sense for their business, right? whether it's super safe uh debt, whether it's CAP, whether it's Sky SUSDs, whatever, whether it's FX protocol uh or or any other securities, right?

So, there's just going to be this two two forked model, right? That that's the way that I uh see it. But then the second model is all of the as as Nick was saying, it's going to have a billion different types of yield products, right? So, it depends on what you mean by that second thing. There's not going to be a world at least in my opinion where everyone is going to accept at the point of commerce and the point of on-ramps and the point of crossber payments a long list of random tickers uh with USD in it that are some more like private credit, some more like uh risky debt, some yields uh and and things like that.

That day existed in crypto by the way uh in in like

Yeah. that that day existed uh years ago, right? Where people thought, oh, you're, you know, you're going to send in anything and it's just going to get uh converted like automatically or things like that. Actually, it turns out pricing uh and denomination is a very very sticky uh thing. It's a very sticky network effect because denomination at the point of commerce and at the point of sale and and crossber payment and settlement is a very very powerful thing.

you're not going to have many stable coins um win that maybe maybe five maybe six seven in the next you know uh 5 years and those are the two things yield denomination and and and monetary premium those are the two categories in my opinion

okay quick followup uh what's your take on non-USD uh stable coins

I think they'll be huge uh but I think there'll be even a thinner market right where I think five to seven USD stable coins will be like hundreds of billions of TVL if not trillions right for for the money game uh there'll probably be one or two um of every like Euro C like um Korean Juan we actually helped issue uh KRWQ which is a Korean one stable coin is the first one there's Brazilian realale all of these I think there'll only be like one or two of those just because they're smaller in terms of opportunity but there they'll also be very big

and the demand outside of those like local economies is like zero right there's demand for dollars everywhere like there's really not that much demand for Royale outside of Brazil.

Well, so I mean for us we integrate these alternative currencies heavily uh because you can issue credit default swaps with alternative currencies. So instead of doing a carry trade with the Japanese yen, you can just underwrite KKRI cap and get the credit spread directly. No hedging or anything like that. So I I think as more of these structured products are go live on onchain that will attract a lot of these um you know overseas investors and maybe through that means uh you could have some demand not from those markets because if you're an American institution and you can uh you know invest Japanese yen and then hedge it out um you you may be interested in it.

No definitely that sounds interesting. Okay. Uh still do you have take on this?

Not really.

Not really.

No, I'm I'm I'm actually mostly interested in non fiat denominated stable coins designs such like Vitalik posted an interesting article lately about an an potential new approach but it's probably off topic of institutional approaches. Something I'm very interested about.

Okay. So So what's your take on collateral for non fiat denominated? Oh, his idea is to use uh options basically, but I won't I won't reexlain the whole article here.

Yeah. Okay.

But that's an interesting approach to basically hedge you from from different prices that matters in your in your daily life such as the rent in your city for instance.

Synthetic structured products I was talking about. They're not going to converge. There's going to be millions of things, right? So,

okay. Put it in the bucket. Cool. Okay. So we have like four minutes left.

Uh so let's uh let's uh close with last question. What's the one thing or one prediction uh you believe your competitors are getting wrong? The development of the market.

I think uh real world is actually onchain.

Okay. That's in my opinion way more tangible than any trusted parties in what we usually call the real world. If you if you talk about cryptos to someone that doesn't know about crypto, most of the time they say, "But I don't know. It's not real. It's not just like my my bill in my pocket.

It's not real." But the thing is actual blockchain emitted assets I way are way more real than your money that can just disappear or lose value in an instant because of a central bank decision or because of a freezing on the centralized asset for instance just like USDC did on the whole protocol uh last week and when you abstract trust from onchain assets by actually doing real decentralized finance so sorry about the real world but just actual decentralized finance then it's way more tangible than any so-called reward asset in my opinion. Just just

uh I think uh I guess my contrarian take that other people might not believe is I think there's going to be a step function in growth rather than a smooth gradual one. Uh stablecoin market cap has been between 100 to 200 billion basically for like the past four or five years. Um the last uptick to that was also a step function meaning in like six months 90% of the growth happened and then it's been uh in this band. I think it'll go up to like 500 600 billion uh in like a matter of few months but before we get there it'll just keep going in this band. And so we're our GTM at at FRA is basically building towards a a world in which that step function happens and we'll we'll be positioned to uh you know grow 500x and in that hopefully right

yeah I would say for us right the the reason we started the business is we thought there needed to be a horizontally neutral issuer um you know outside of circle and tether and so I would say like that's you know one thing I thought they were they were getting wrong but I I actually agree with Sam I think the next big step function change will be having clear accounting rules for stable coins. Um because that's like the sneaky thing that's you know and we'll get that with Genius is that's preventing a lot of businesses from adopting stables.

Okay. And accounting rules uh I mean globally.

Yeah. Like glo well just in the United States right? So I'll give an example you know real multinational business that I know well that their audit their annual audit from PWC almost got blown up last year because they had stable coins on their balance sheet. if you're the CFO of that business, you're like, why or why why why am I going through this headache for, you know, 10 million dollars of stable coins, right? So, um, you know, I think that'll help accelerate adoption.

Okay, thanks.

Uh, for us in the credit space, I I think, um, a lot of folks are trying to tokenize private credit and, um, I think it's unwise because private credit today is not set up, uh, with the right incentive structures. the people that are running these funds are not uh aligned with the depositors and time and time again we see blowups. Why? Because uh these uh people are incentivized to just deploy deploy deploy and you have funds of hundreds of billions of dollars um that are run by uh investment committees of 30 people. How are you going to deploy that?

And so I I think instead of trying to just uh bring all these assets on chain that are extremely risky, why don't we use smart contracts to limit how much these uh institutions can harm their depositors or to protect retail from fraud, right? Like why can't all these CLOs's be on chain? Uh I think that's going to be the key.

Yeah. But there's there's this one product that people are trying to get people to loop on chain. It's like a billion dollar private credit fund that has like 5% quarterly redemptions. And I haven't said anything publicly, but if you get that in any size, that thing is going to like totally blow up. And people,

my marketing team that's here today, it tells me I can't mention them by name. But yeah, you have these uh

very large well-known credit. They come to all these conferences and they're like, "Please give me loans and I will borrow at 4% APR." And it's like, "Okay, you're you're lending, you're giving them liquidity, but you don't know what you're doing." I mean, that can end really poorly. Anyways, I I believe you know buy it back at you know 50% discount to NAV.

Exactly.

Okay. I think this is a good closure for this.