Panel | Building Secondary Markets for Onchain Real-World Assets

Hello everyone. Good morning. Thank you for being with us for the first panel of day number two of stable summit. Hope you're enjoying the event so far. As Maria said, this panel will be about building secondary markets for onchain real world assets.

I have some great panelists with me today. Each of them represented a different part of the tokenization stack. But uh I will let them tell you a bit more about that. So I would suggest we start with a round of uh introductions about yourselves and a few words about the company or protocol you represent. Maybe I'm going to start myself and then pass it over to you.

So uh my name is Bianca Buzza. I'm head of Devrell at Chronicle. Uh the team of Chronicle is behind the first oracle on Ethereum back in 2017. Uh today Chronicle powers over 15 billion of onchain assets and a lot of those are powered via uh proof of asset oracle our oracle for tokenized assets. Emilio would you like to go next?

Yes. Hi everyone. My name is Emilio. I work in a I am senior VP of engineering. I'm currently uh overseeing like the development of AB before.

I've been also leading the development of AB V3 and was core developer in a V2 V1 since the beginning let's say uh we recently launched Horizon which is our RWA initiative and we have a lot of uh exciting RWA initiatives coming for this year and the next. So yeah, nice to be here. Hey, nice to meet you everybody. Uh, I'm Charles Johnson. I lead digital asset defy tokenization and blockchain at S&P Global.

S&P Global is also used to be known as Standard and Poor. We have uh was a leading index uh provider was a leading rating credit rating agency and we have a few other division. We've been doing a lot in the field and looking forward to speak about all that.

Hey everyone, I'm I'm Graeme. Uh I'm the D5 product lead at Centifuge. Senuge is most probably the oldest um DeFi well the oldest RWA tokenization protocol been around since um early 2017. To date we have gone through different versions of the protocol but the latest version we're currently tokenizing around 1.3 1.

4 billion worth of RWAs in partnership with like S&P as well as um a variety of other partners in the stack. Chronicles, our wonderful Oracle provider. And really what we're focused on at Centifuge is bringing fund manager fund managers, asset managers to tokenize their assets through our protocol um and distribute them across the market into venues like AA Horizon, Morpho, and the rest of the DeFi stack. Um that's really the big focus of what we're focusing on today.

Hi, I'm Amist. I'm CBO at DJFT. We are a RWA exchange that's regulated in Singapore and Hong Kong. We are also the tokenization partner of some of the leading managers globally. This includes UBS, Invesco and BNY.

You can think of us as a marketplace. Uh we are licensed to issue secure tokens and we operate an exchange for the decentralized secondary trading of this RWA tokens. Happy to be here.

Thank you so much for that. Maybe let's start with a bit of a background. When we say secondary markets for real world assets, I suspect the four of you might picture a bit different things based on where you're coming from. So it might be an order book, it might be an AMM pool, it might be uh borrowing uh against it on a lending protocol or maybe an over-the-counter trade uh settled through smart contracts. So I would be curious how for each of you a functioning secondary market uh looks like.

I can start. Um, so a functioning secondary market is a market where you have a buyer that do not know the issuer that can price the asset, price the risk and go on the other side of it right now. Well, I guess the question was that right? So

any other takes on this?

I mean I would agree with that. I think my my view is depending on who the the buyer is of the asset uh you know institutions have different needs the retail user but I think if you look at retail number one you know onchain secondary market liquidity they need to get the same experience as they're getting with fintech apps with Robin Hood you know you had instant settlement you can trade multiple times in a day you're getting the best pricing um you can price the risk as well so I very much agree with Charles Tech I think on the institutional side you know secondary liquidity maybe looks a bit different from a timing perspective Maybe it's not instant settlement based on the size but again matching what they would be expecting in the traditional finance rails but now onchain.

Yeah I would add like uh easiness of um to enter and exit that's also very important to be functional in my opinion. I mean crypto markets are very cool because like there is there is no entry or exit barrier. It's very easy to access. It's open 24/7. Uh I think that's also a big part right now like it's not that easy to use RWAS on chain for example.

So that's a big part of it in my opinion.

I think it's kind of worth noting the the difference when we talk about securing markets I think historically when you think about thread by secretary markets it's revolves around exits and transfer of ownership and therefore the activities are predominantly trading in nature. But if we talk about onchain secondary market, I think apart from transfer of ownership and exit, we aren't also adding in the unlock of utility on the RWSS. So therefore, it's a more varied form. Um to your point, you see AMM, you see vaude lending, they all forend probably secondary market activities. But I think the fundamental properties be it onchain or offchain secretary market or capital market so to speak remains the same, right?

And we talked about pricing liquidity settlement finality but I think one crucial aspect that we don't talk enough of is investor protections and this can be in the form of risk management risk curation this can be in the form of regulatory clarity from a compliance or AML perspective. Yeah

Raham actually I love that you mentioned that we need to have in mind who's the actual buyer who's the persona. So maybe uh I would like to explore what's the persona nowadays about the buyer of uh assets on secondary markets is um is there like a defi native person are those institutions arbitrage who are we seeing mainly uh buying

I think on the secondary market is arbitr um and mainly retail I think on the primary side you know at centennifuge work very closely with the likes of Grove um and some instit other institutional investors and they're happy to go through the primary rails because they want you know guaranteed execution of the price that they're going in. I think on the secondary market it's really specifically on chain would be the art like will be the retail users. I think you'll see more retail users coming in and looking for what I refer to as permissionless or like fully transferable RWAS um and can talk more about that. as you know onchain yields or defy yields have really been crunched over the last three months when you look at you know a let's say the flagship onchain lending rates are sitting anywhere between 2 and 3% and there are some RWA above that and I think you'll see in the secondary market a lot of retail users coming in looking for higher yielding products and those will be really RWA specific products in the secondary market

yeah I kind of agree I think in in Asia where we see more emerging demand will around the family offices and high network the bill so to speak who are comfortable with digital asset as a infrastructure but are now going after more utility of the token that they allocating into

I think there's very little secondary market right now I think the almost every tokenization effort have been made uh centered around capital formation and less about liquidity so you have um most of the real world asset that I issued are issued and then held and then redeemed and that's a primary market with an exceed button. It's not a real secondary market and what is one of I mean everybody here on this panel all those different uh person around me and and company are building the pipe so that we will have secondary market. uh the only piece that is missing the one that we'll try to to participate on is or play the main role in is uh risk um signals. So without risk signals uh the pipe doesn't have pressure. uh what we have seen in Horizon is that like it confirms uh like uh his stake in in the sense that the vast majority of Horizon users are holding for time and eventually leveraging where there is the opportunity to do so if they yell this um attractive enough and it is mostly on horizon at least it is mostly institutional actors though because it's um the assets that are there are require require KYC and uh like um uh require require compliance um procedures to be issued.

So um most of the assets that are most of the users that are using assets in within Horizon are institutional users. That's I think uh part of the reason is what he was explaining that the they are mostly acquired for holding them rather than trading them.

I think I think we should also just the quick snapshot of RWA on chain today. It's very difficult specifically if you're looking at maybe not the ono side of things. It's very difficult if you're a retail user or a user in this room to go and buy a treasury bull on chain or a clo or you know variety of black rocks products or centuses products. Um you need to go through extensive KYB um to be able to go use Horizon. Um so I also think like that'll always be a blocker in the the secondary market liquidity on chain because these users are very go through a long on boarding process.

That's very sticky capital and I think once more products launch that are more freely transferable you know like at center we're trying to build freely transferable RWA tokens that you still get the the benefit of the underlying um these are live today and I think we're still seeing that those would need to be where we build the secondary market liquidity because they're more tailored to an open user base where everybody can partake. The real issue today with RWA on chain is that it's not open to everybody. it's really open to a small set of institutional investors and I I think the big focus is thinking how do we also focus on opening up to everybody in the room or retail user base to be able to get access to real world assets too. I think it's kind of an evolution of the ecosystem, right? Because you you need sort of need to build the primary markets before you have the breath and the debt to say let's think about secondary markets.

You know, I think for for us, we were intentionally focusing on the primary market aspect since we launched, but we're now starting to turn on some of the secondary market capability. You know, maybe starting with OTC, not going to AMM immediately. And we do this through market makers the likes of GSR where they're helping to support instant mint and burn on some of the tokens that we we offer.

Maybe looking a bit of the incentives for regular people to to come and uh get these assets. What would you say um are the the main incentives for someone uh let's say holding a traditional um ETF switching to the tokenized version of it? What's actually that unlocks that uh demand? Is it better yield? Is it the composability aspect when you think about the bit bigger uh picture into DeFi?

Uh the settlement speed or maybe something else?

I can start. For me the composibility part is the most important. Uh uh we have seen uh with um traditional uh crypto tokens like the easiness of uh using them across a variety of protocols atomically uh which is something in in traditional finance doesn't really happen that easily certainly not atomically and uh we have seen this can bring like uh using this financial primitives onchain with assets that are traditionally used in uh uh traditional financial markets. I think that's for me is a very is a very big point uh for why someone would use a real world asset on chain.

So I agree with with Emilio at a personal level. I think number it's important right because I mean I'm I'm a DeFi guy. I think it's you know what is important but um for most people right now what they need to switch uh is is really a big list of thing. One of them uh of course is just the wallet and the way you interact with everything. It's not way too complicated.

Um, now when you look at something like uh the tokenized S&P 500 that we're doing with uh with Centrifuge, if you just hold the S&P 500 in an ETF, well, that's it. You cannot do really anything with it if you're retail right now. if there was a safe way and that's a big if to get a yield on the S&P 500 putting it in in a moro in some type of of vaults or pool that you can trust then I guess that's interesting reason to to move but it's it's why it's so different right so for instance we all care many of us care about decentralization here for instance most of the people don't uh we all care about the different type I'm speaking of retail right we all care about the different type of of better product we can have. I got a lot of friends when I discuss that they basically want the easiest simple simple thing. They don't want to interact with the product themselves.

They just want something extremely easy. So we need to simplify the overall process for direct uh retail usage and again like we need to have a way that the average people can trust uh and and and have a view on the risk. I think I fully agree with both Emilio Charles point. I think um I think something sometimes we forget is that a lot of these brokerage apps today you can use it as collateral. You get some interest on the stocks that you can use as collateral as well.

And so I think the big question is who's also the we go back to who's the base. I think I think the world of there's a lot of people who can't access some of these RWAs in the jurisdiction that they are based in or the country that they're in. And I think there's a big opportunity there for those users to come on chchain. They can get access to, you know, an S&P product that can be used as collateral in Horizon or Morpho and borrow against it. And there'll be that kind of user base who gets to benefit from the composability.

But I really also think yeah like Charles said, we have to really simplify onboarding and getting these users on on board and how we package these products for the retail user to make it really easy for them to make sense for them coming on chain. I I sort of think of it in in three tiers frankly. We talk about utility. There needs to be a reason for investors to go on chain right and then we talked about the infrastructure the UI UX being able to support the activities the utility on chain in a manner that is simplest. I think the third layer will be the regulatory layer to make sure that whatever happens onchain in the infrastructure that we have built is assured gives investors the assurance so to speak.

Um take for example today a a fund token that's issued out of the US be rack DRS it may not be compatible with the securities framework in Asia right likewise a wallet that is KYCL whitlisted in Asia may not be compatible in Europe so how do we then harmonize this difference in regulatory and compliance framework I think would be the third pillar to sort of get more users on chain

sure I think you pointed out um a very interesting distinction here that it has to be a safe way um to integrate those. What would you say is missing like why is not a safe way today? Is it u on the regulatory side something is missing? Is it on the infra side uh some piecing some pieces not uh connecting together? What's missing?

So I think we need something uh similar but more than what we have in in in trade five. So the traditional credit risk cannot be ignored. Uh but you have to add to that the smart contract risk, the oracle risk, the blockchain like custody blockchain risk. So it's more about um extending the the overall standard of what is looked at for uh risk assessment. If you look at the bond market like everything will have a rating of our benchmark, right?

we we we're lack that right now in in AWA and I think that what maybe I'm touching a bit on the next question but something that would solve that I was thinking what uh Ammo just said is um we need some standardization also if we can get to a point where we can have a standardized machine readable u rest signal that travel with the token then well it should help enabling um secondary market because well you know AI come back in every conversation uh and having this kind of possibility for well smart contract trading and pro programmability an agent trading a pro uh programmability which you know is is just coming um while involving the something that machine can use to because again retail will not most of I mean I don't see really I used to I don't see really a world where people will all have a wallet and and transact themselves uh they'll use the tool that they are used to use and those tool will plug in into all the products that people are building here and Graham was mentioning like the access I mean I've been living in Argentina a long time and it's absolutely true right you you don't have access to the dollar I mean especially with the previous president uh and and you try to get access to the dollar but you don't even think of getting access to the S&P 500. So uh but for people to put their life saving or just like their investing capital in something that touch or doesn't touch blockchain, they don't really care. They need to feel it's it's safe. And I mean we we see again and again the type of same collapse, right? when we started I mean I've been in crypto since 2013 but um you know we launched this team a few months before Teral Luna nobody cared about risk at all it evolved we had Teraluna but then we we kind of still make the same mistake right we see that with result we see that with stream finance et so we need to have something that convince people that it won't happen again with their money

yeah for me it's if we talk like technical aspects specifically if I think about the ryzone we have two uh critical points that reconnect what he was saying one is the oracle price and the other one is the liquidation risk so oracle price is tricky because there is no secondary market so it's a hard to price these assets and there is no standardized way of ensuring that these assets are actually backed so in In a sense, you have to trust the issuer. Uh we on Horizon we price the asset because the issuer signals that the the assets are uh backed and and therefore because most of them are uh stable in price. Therefore, the price reflects the value of the tokens. Uh this is a challenge of course because uh it requires a degree of trust that goes past the issuance if the asset be starts becoming uh available on the secondary market. Right?

And the second part is the uh liquidation risk because not all uh liquidations are not permissionless. Not all and not everyone can go and liquidate an asset but you have to be authorized to do so because the assets are bound to KYC and KYB. So uh technically compared to crypto assets that are extremely uh liquid and easy to access these are the two major challenges in terms of risk that we have on on horizon. And to go past that like we will have to do some work. I would like to challenge you a bit uh on the answer um on on the part where you mentioned that you need to trust the issuer.

Why not get uh data directly from the custodian? That's that's possible today. Why not go to the source?

Well, in the majority of cases, now I don't I don't exactly remember for Horizon specifically uh but in the majority of cases, the issuer is also the custodian. when we talking about uh tokenized I don't know treasuries or or or stuff like that or we access uh endpoints that allow us to fetch the state of the asset through the issues but the data is actually made available by the custodian. So it's uh the two things are kind of interled if you if you will. I I mean there there is no world where the issuer doesn't know the custo the custodian uh doesn't I mean it's not it's not a way it's it has to be a two-way relationship between the issuer and the custodian if you will. Therefore, when we access this kind of information is made available by both in either direct or indirect way.

I think part of the the the issue is also how the NAVs if you're talking about tokenized funds for now is calculated right be if you go straight to the issuer or to the custodian right now NAV tends to be calculated once a day right and then if you think about the onchain atomic nature how do you then bridge that especially in in liquidation event and redemption event then not to mention things like redemption gate you know at a fund level and so different features comes into play which may work at the offchain version of the fund. But when we talk about the tokenized version and its utility on chain, I think there are a lot of other other issues that we sort of need to work around at this point.

Maybe looking a bit further at other horizon since you opened that topic. Would you say there is a tension between uh using the collateral um versus um purely trading it? Because if you think about it, uh at the end of the day, if you're just parking, uh your assets um in a lending protocol, does that drain from secondary trading venues? Would you say there is a tension there? Um I mean uh if I reconnect to what he was saying before that like currently like most of the assets are actually uh um issued and purchased for uh holding them and for yield because it's the easiest way to access uh an accessible Yel onchain uh today if you want to keep your assets onchain.

So I mean if the secondary market is not that liquid and that available then like the number of options that you have to use that asset are kind of restricted right and most of the users that are actually using these assets are more are looking more to hold them for y or optimize that y by leveraging uh these assets. Leveraging is also not that easy as it would be on on DeFi, of course, because in DeFi you just flash the amount that you need to to leverage and and then you can leverage as much as the protocol allows you to. Uh in this case, you cannot do it because like you need uh asset be you need to get the the the principle from the protocol. For example, you borrow USDC and then you go again to the issuer, you give USDC, you will get your asset and then it's like a much longer procedure. Um, so I mean assets can leave a very easily if you want to like for example uh for uh D5 we have embedded features that like allow you to trade your collateral at any point in time.

You can trade your collateral for if you hold Bitcoin, you can trade for USDC at any point in time. If you feel like your Bitcoin are going down, then you can go on the other front and trade your Bitcoin for USDC. Your position remains open and you just switch the composition of your collateral, right? So they are not necessarily locked because thanks to the auto atomicity and like the flexibility of DeFi, you can easily unlock the collateral and lock it back again. So if you want to trade it, there are possibilities, but indeed the secondary market for RWAs right now is very limited.

So that's that's a bit complicated. I want to add I think the real challenge especially when we look at RWAs that are for buying and holding and acquiring the yields. So like you know treasury bills, CLLOs's like the majority of where the most TVL is today on real world assets to go and supply it into a liquidity pool and AMM you have to go supply whatever 50% ratio. Now the the LP there is holding USDC in a liquidity pool where they could be holding that in a CLLO earning 4.7%.

And so the the real Kickstarter issue that you find at all these RWA issuers including Centifuge phase is if you want to go and do secondary liquidity you now have to go and convince an LP or or market maker to go put up USDC liquidity in the liquidity pool of somewhere that's not really going to be actively traded. No one is, you know, the the CLLO market maybe today is a really large market, but it it's not being there's probably not a thousand or a million trades happening a day on those markets in the trade fire rails. Maybe I could be wrong. I could stand corrected, but onchain that's like not a really actively traded market anyway. So, you're also asking an LP to supply to AMM pool where they're not going to get that many trading fees to make up for the yield loss.

And so, these AMM or liquidity pools are never really going to get the secondary liquidity. That's really the Kickstarter issue that we that I think these I want to call them boring RWAs will face today and always face on chain and that's why you need these RFQ style markets or prop mm style markets that sort of make sense because the the idle liquidity can be used for something else in that in that time I think the likes of have sold like say the retail style product because they purely RFQ model. So you can always go to Ando, you can always get the best execution price. You can buy and sell as much as you want and then go and use it in any liquidity market that you want. But again, different product.

They're not like the boring RWAs like products that you see. And really just to the caller point is boring RWAs are really always going to struggle building secondary market liquidity on chain because the the current way that AMMs work is just not capital efficient for these kind of assets.

Yeah. But I think the all is not doomed. I think yeah the good news is we are seeing more builders who are building in in this space right be it from a liquidity pool concept or some financial institutions or stable coin issuers with the balance sheets are now coming out to say well I want to grow this as a as a use case how do I think about it with my you know credit facilities my IBD asset management division so I I think we we are starting to see more activities around there which is I think good for the overall ecosystem So my point before was that uh secondary market don't really exist now right not that they won't exist so I I think it it will happen we definitely have more and more liquidity and and participant the we touch briefly on the regulatory angle uh in in this conversation it's a massive one right so now that we have almost every juris jurisdiction in the world trying to well fix this piece or create this piece. you and the life I think of the world that are you know now saying I think in these last letter something like um tokenization will be to world street what internet was to mail and that's a very big statement right and and it I mean I guess we all agree with that and every institution in the world especially in the US right now not really thinking on should I try to build something here participate in tokenization they're looking at how to do it. So eventually as we'll have more and more product and there used to be this topic that was discussed all the time of the chicken and egg problem of you don't have enough liquidity in DeFi and crypto and not crypto in tokenized asset real world assets and that's because you don't have enough product and you don't have enough product that's why you don't have liquidity and this is being solved right now when we see the like of Coinbase integrating with Moro and all these type of fintech that want access to new type of yield they're bringing liquidity and then you see the asset manager which sees this liquidity coming and you see Apollo buying more for token or other looking at a horizon etc.

They're all looking at this liquidity thinking well I could use that. So we'll have more and more product more and more institution participating and as you have you know more and more possibility you'll have more and more option for secondary market

be um a follow-up question on that uh when you look at the tokenized asset today what information you want uh to have in order to assess the risk about it and how is that different uh when assessing a similar product from traditional uh finance. I guess for me uh so I'm a disclaimer I have to do I'm not from the analytical side of SNP ratings so I'm not uh defining the methodology and cannot influence the the analyst in any way but um I think it goes back to what I was mentioning before you you need all the different tool that you had for credit risk in the past but you need to add a layer of risk assessment that are specific to the industry from the oracle risk custo blockchain risk uh etc. Um so yeah that's

I think uh today in traditional rails you have auditors or reviewers or there's internal governance. I think crypto or the digital asset space has moved in a way where we're seeing the curator model sort of filling that middle role of doing curation of assets. It's it's questionable maybe in the last six months if they've been doing a good job um except for a few curators um that maybe have come out unscathed. I think you know curators are going to fill this middle model where they build collection of assets and manage the risk very similar to I guess what a was doing in the the the DAO model with having risk curators managing and reviewing any assets getting added and I think that same model will happen. I think there'll be this curated list curated level on top of these protocols D5 protocols where the curators like stakehouse or I mean maybe I'll only mention steakhouse because they were saved from the resolve issues but these curators will do all the risk management in the middle piece and you got to really trust the the the curators doing the right thing and I think you'll see that curators will evolve into these I don't know auditors or this middle layer that is ensuring that they're doing the correct review and risk management of all these assets.

But then again like I think it's a hopeful but that that's that's where I see us going

but I think if you looked under the at the underlying assets um part of it is an education process um take for example right now you know private credit as a sector is getting a lot of bad rep right people looked at what's happening to Brad what's happening to first brand they say private credit is bad but if you truly understand private credit and you look at the different subcategories you know there are cos there cos there are broadly syndicated loans there's direct lending and not all of them are equally bad performing right they may be affected by the overall sentiments but you know co for example has never defaulted right as far as I'm aware so so I think part of this is also education of the ecosystem and the investors where once they get comfortable with the tech layer of onchain is also the underlying assets in terms of what is pretty pretty much a standard due diligence process that any other trapfy investors would go True. I mean if you if you uh know the underlying asset you are investing in and then it's just a matter and you want to hold that asset because you already assess the risk of the underlying asset then the it's just a matter of assessing what are the additional risk of using it on chain which is indeed custodian risk and additional technical risk which is what he was mentioning before like so third party risk due to smart contract uh if they issue is using I don't know smart contract infrastructure and um the blockchain risk if you are using a blockchain that might incur that kind of of of challenges. So I for me like it's just a matter of uh evaluating once you know what you are investing in evaluating the additional layer of risk that blockchain brings

but I guess also it's important like to have that full picture on chain not only offchain you need to have that

exactly yes yes yes so it's both assessing the nature of the underlying asset and then assessing on top of that the additional risk that issuing that that onchain brings.

That's music to my ear since we're building proof of asset. Uh being aware of um time we don't have much time but I would like to wrap up with a bit of a prediction of uh what uh you see happening in the next uh few years when it comes maybe let's say a fiveyear time frame. uh what would you say needs to be uh built or what needs to happen in order for secondary markets of uh for uh real world assets to really flourish to to see it powerful

for me is like uh we have to improve the easiness of access to this uh asset class. So uh make it as close as permissionless as possible. So I think fully permission is going to be impossible not at least in the nature that maybe you will have I don't know to split the yel from the the principal or do a variety of things that might allow you to use them permissionlessly or having some kind of really really favorable regulation that will allow us to do so. um that first because if there is a um complicated uh entry barrier to actually use that asset then it becomes uh challenging and then in the optics of what we are building would be nice to have as close as onchain redeemability a direct onchain redeemability as uh possible so for example I don't know bid has a onchain USDC fund that allow you to redeem it immediately If there is available liquidity in the fund, that's a step in my opinion in the right direction because then allow this allows us to evaluate what sides we could be able sorry to handle uh onchain uh for our horizon for for example which would allow us also to set uh specific risk parameters to set specific constraints in terms of uh um exposure for the protocol that particular asset. So I really hope that we are we we see improvements in that direction so that we can actually start integrating these assets more and more into what we know uh of DeFi, how Defi works today.

I can go next. Um so today a lot if not most of the secondary market trading is already automated right we've been speaking a lot about retail but speaking of volumes with agent it will only increase so what we need to get more liquidity and to get these use cases happen with secondary trading with LWSet onchain is uh I touched on it quickly before we need a standardized uh in the token machine readable way um for risk signals. I think that's one of the things that will be created and and will help enable a lot uh the market. It has to encompass everything we discussed before right um all the type of risk that you had in the past the smart contract angle risk the operational risk and and all our ext by this technology.

I'll just quickly on what Emilio said in his first point that he hopes to see built in the next five years. to actually more quickly. We've built it. We have these these assets that are fully transferable. There's like a small KYC on the initial purchase, but the idea is that you make it really easy to buy these RWAs.

Um, so always go look at them. DRWAS, you get access to the Treasury Bull, the CLLO, as well as a new one coming this week. Um the I think the other things we should be seeing built over the next five years I think is like the risk signaling or like getting the the oracle providers like you know Chronicle um to be able to do risk signaling of the underlying funds on chain outside of you know the fund issuer. So it's working I mean I think you know we Chronicle push onchain our CLO balance sheets of all the assets that are part of the CLO product that we have. Um I think that's one piece and I think the next piece also just be around clever solutions around instant liquidity or liquidity that allows users to move in and out at large sizes and I think that's coming the you know miners have a solution and I think there'll be more solutions that we built like this for a variety of different assets at v variety different like yield prices.

Um yeah no I totally agree with what what Graham just just shared. Um I I think one point to add is I'm thinking about new capital coming on chain because that's the that's really going to be key in terms of unlocking secondary activities and more liquidity on chain and for that to happen I'm not sure if there's something that we can build but it's more around giving investors the assurance or the risk matrix the compliance matrix to know that what they're doing on chain is legitimate and I know it's good to see you know GBBC and the likes of some organizations coming up with matrix to guide um track by institutions who are looking to come on chchain and I think that will be quite key in unlocking the next five years of secondary markets for onchain RWA.

I love that we are all uh positive. I would love to continue the conversation but unfortunately time is up.