A Deep Dive into DeFi Governance and Stablecoins

thank you uh Hey everybody I'm zerox Joshua of um Asos Finance you might know me as the buff porn Steward from eth Denver very happy to be here in Brussels thank you we have an excellent panel for you here today and I'm going to let our fine panelists introduce themselves so that I don't butcher anything so let's start with question number one give us an introduction uh who you are and and what you're working on hey guys so I am Kyle Webster I'm also Kyle stargarden from Asos Labs uh I've been a smart contract engineer for about four years uh came through the Dow space done work with Dow house raid Guild and a bunch of other uh top tier governance nerds and yeah at Asos Labs what we're building is a stable coin backed by real world impact assets like tokenized renewable energy certificates tokenized green bonds tokenized carbon credits basically we want to be the uh Reserve currency of the regenerative economy and I think that uh now is basically the the best time to do this saying hold it closer a little closer okay um yeah so we're definitely seeing the effects of climate change we're definitely seeing all sorts of problems that are cropping up in society because we're not we're not putting the uh the right amount of attention and the right amount of coordination into solving these issues together so that's uh that's the skinny of it I'm the head of protocol at Asos Labs all right my my name is Yer D I am uh from glow dollar so glow dollar is essentially a copy paste of usdc um the stable coin most of us know and love um it's a it's a copy paste it's a US regulated stable coin back to the dollar back by the same assets as usdc it falls under the same regulatory framework we hir the same Law Firm has circled it set it up and our general council is the ex interm General Council of circle with one big difference and that is that we are a nonprofit so Circle makes a lot of money on your stable coin assets because it's backed by treasuries and they're taking the interest um we give the interest away to public goods and Charities and as a holder you decide where we donate the money to so you can connect your wallet to our app and then you can select extreme poverty reduction or climate change or with free public goods um soon we'll add uh uh helping refugees and then every month we make profit on your money but then instead of it going to Jeremy air or Paulo from tedar um it goes to Charities and public goods making the world uh a better place and that means that if you're using stable coins you can financially support good organizations without paying for it um and uh that's something that we call donation lless philanthropy um the last remark I guess is that tedar and circle made8 billion dollar last year um congratulations to them it's an amazing business model um but uh I think that that is interest of of our money and I think that as a crypto ecosystem we can do better things with that 8 billion yeah thanks that's an awesome introduction so my name is Nate Jer U I'm a co-founder of Keta Finance keto Finance is actually an rwa project and we we tokenize several different things treasuries stocks bonds but of interest for this panel maybe it's a more of a green uh Bond tokenization so we are tokenizing the green Investments for example when a company government or institution they have some plans to invest in some green technologies or green initiatives uh they can basically offer the green Bond and they're usually very enticed to invest so they get slightly better conditions but you know still they have to pay the bond back and it's still a loan uh and the stuff that is being supported are different kinds of initiatives for example uh climate change like so for examp example the reduction of um carbon uh carbon emissions but there are also like cleaner uh technology cleaner water Agriculture and some stuff like that so all of that can be actually used and this is being tokenized and we are basically offering those bonds to everybody to buy and also of course to the stable coin issues um it is like a low risk low return or or at least lower risk uh investment and basically it gives you B basically the holders uh of the returns so it's very interesting for those that you know are trying to invest get some return and you know at the same time help make world uh run you know different kinds of initiatives to improve it for example as I mentioned before like green initiatives or other kind of initiatives that are there in the green bonds all of this is of course standardized and um yeah there is just a promotion of the good cost in the investment and the whole idea behind this was actually to you know in crypto you can invest in many different things of course stable coins they are very good and we definitely support that fully and wholly um but anyway we're trying to bring more of those Investments that are doing the public good into the blockchain and we're not just trying with the highrisk Investments which you can get in blockchain we're also trying to bring like lower risk investments in the blockchain which I believe are very rare right now and of of course stable coins have are not just investment they're usually used for transactions as well so we are mostly on investment so this is in short about Kito finance and yeah thank you hey everybody great to be here at stable Summit I'm Marcus I'm a contributor at cadow where we're using blockchain technology to solve some long-standing problems in the carbon credit Market as well as other environmental commodity markets uh my background is in data science and data engineering so I work mostly on our dashboards and anal ICS um but yeah at CA we're really we have a vision that uh positive climate impact can be embedded into every transaction and a mechanism for doing that uh is carbon credits and there are other environmental Commodities being developed but carbon credits are the most mature and we think there are some really obvious problems that can be solved using D5 Primitives like amm and protocol owned liquidity to bring greater liquidity access and transparency to this really important Market that's otherwise functioning right now on like PDFs emails wire transfers um pretty much 1990s era technology and so we think that web- based Technologies like blockchain can be a really powerful uh transform transformative uh Catalyst for this important Market driving more finance and also addressing some of the issues around integrity and transparency that have long plagued uh this important Market thanks guys uh we were joking earlier about how the intros would take 10 minutes but they actually only took seven look at that we got an extra three minutes okay so let's start with the the first question I want to ask all of you um and then we'll I guess debate it if we have any differences uh how can stable coins help fund positive impact so I have a couple very specific ideas for how I think candow can use stable coins to increase the amount of positive impact that we're able to finance uh in particular stable coins allow you to transform specifically CDP based stable coins to transform any stable collateral asset into dollars that you can go and spend in the real world and so cadow is in the position of having a large amount of carbon credits in our treasury uh some of which we are selling for use to end users um but you know we have quite a lot and we'd like to be able to collateralize those assets turn them into cash and then put that cash into new carbon projects that are going and having more positive impact and so it can be a multiplier effect on the dollar value of our treasury rather than just having to sell credits for dollars and then turn those dollars around we can borrow against credits uh and use that those dollars to fund new projects and so aligning with a project like Asos is really compelling because we know that the other collateral Assets in the basket of collateral that our carbon credits will be sitting with are also positive impact assets as opposed to a generic uh CDP based system like say maker where we're going to be pulled alongside a bunch of other assets that may or may not have anything to do with positive impact cool yeah um I would just built from what he said basically uh when he mentions the carbon credits and everything we're also offering like um green bonds that are maybe a bit lower risk return but um you can do very similar stuff with them uh which is I think a great advantage and in general I think just that U blockchain crypto they just need more like uh Investments where they can actually entice the public impact so the good impact the Regina to finance and and this is the whole idea because why we were thinking about the green fund at Kito finance and you know we were thinking of okay like um we definitely want to offer people and investors different kind of risk uh appetites uh but we don't want just like different risk appetites we want some additional thing near it like we want to actually make good to the world and a lot of the crypto projects um they are obviously focused on utility which is very important and I fully support that but uh we we're building on top of them so of course we are also looking how to encourage also the green initiatives and other initiatives that are just helping the environment and this is exactly what we're doing for the green bonds um we're not only offering like a lower return but also like um with this return there's something positive going on in the world uh there is like some communi sometimes maybe in Africa which is just trying to to get like clean water to the community um this is like you know the whole this balance that that is not existing in this world has to be fixed and I think crypto is actually a great way how to do it there's more to that actually uh Bes because besides actually encouraging those green Investments we're also enabling all around the world with conization to actually have the access to those Investments so a better connection between supply and demand of capital flows and right now it exists to some extent but it exists on very developed markets which we are used to in the west but not every Market is like that some markets are very hard to access and we're just bringing this to everyone so everybody can make an impact everybody can just park their money and uh with this actually help the environment help some community and I think this is actually very encouraging and this is the whole reason why we actually went into this solution with this products of this product of ours so yeah this would be yeah I I I would add um um another another one to that and that is so I I I just mentioned right that that the tedar and circle make make 1010 billion doll per year um but that that's not very unique to stable coins actually what What's Happening Here is that tedar and Circle are taking what what I would call the profit margin on money uh and the profit margin on money is something that most consumers are not aware exists but any company that is handling your money is taking sort of like a profit margin or float on that money if you have your money at a bank then the bank is profiting off the money if you have it at Cash app or PayPal and they are profiting and sorco and teda are just doing the same kind of thing um if you combine the entire um the entire profit margin of money of all the Fiat money in the world you would come to I believe three trillion dollar per year what what I mean with that figure is that let's say uh usdc would replace all the Fiat money in the world then their yearly revenu would be $3 trillion doll uh per year um for the first time in history perhaps um stable coins allow us to decouple the profit margin of money from the platform that you're using um because if you're using stable coins uh at uh um a cash app equivalent um then the profit margin of money doesn't have to go to cash app let's say um and um uh with a stable coin as a user you can decide where the profit and margin of money goes so um with stable coins we are potentially unlocking a$3 trillion per year Revenue stream for uh impact uh and often impact is now like some some some impact causes are now constrained by donations people giving money away the problem is most people most of the time keep most of their money for themselves like even most generous people in the world give away let's say 10% of their income which means that they're keeping 90% of their income and that makes sense because they need to pay their rent and their bills and stuff like that um if we unlock this other stream of money um we can uh add more money to the philanthropic pool of dollars basically without relying on more money being given away by people um and uh stable coins are just a technology that allows us to uh to do that yeah it's really amazing to be up here with with you guys and talk about this sort of thing because like cema was part of the inspiration for Asos protocol like mobilizing these uh traditional impact assets like carbon credits moving them on chain is actually what allows Asos protocol to even exist and to see that you're now doing that with green bonds at uh at COA that is exactly what we need to see like that's the validation that we're headed in the right direction so so our take at Asos um about how to create this impact flywheel is that we need to build Financial tools for impact asset classes that have competitive returns with any other decentralized Finance protocol or any other traditional asset uh management or investment because that means you're going to get the exact same cash return you're going to get the same yield off of using our investment or off of using our Asos protocols you would from some less impact oriented investment let's say gas or oil or mining or whatever other thing you might have invested in to get this you know this 15% return you can actually invest an impact and you can get that exact same return because that's the thing people aren't going to give their money away they aren't going to give their money away a little bit right they're not going to give enough money away they want to use a a financial tool a financial primitive that delivers the same high returns that you get from a traditional uh investment and so that's what azos protocol is and that's that's where the impact flywheel kicks in because if you can leverage uh you know Green Bond Holdings or you can leverage high quality carbon credit Holdings and you can get the same return from that as you would invest in an oil and gas a lot of people will do that and we'll see a Floodgate open where green Bond cash carbon credit cash Market efficiencies increase and those assets come on chain and become um this fat source of collateral for decentralized finance sorry I I would just like build on some of the stuff that you guys said um like he mentioned that there's $3 trillion dollar yearly that is being basically just lost in you know safe investments just management and this is usually going to actually quite rich people like the fund managers and stuff like that and I'm not saying like it should be completely erased from them those guys some of them are very smart and do a lot of stuff but we're talking about what three trillion this is a GDP maybe of Italy or something like that so like if we transform like just like a significant piece of that and just give it to something good you know the world would be actually a much better place like GDP of Italy is not so small I don't know it now on my mind what it exactly it is but I would think like 3 trillion is not far away from it so this is a huge amount of money and um to funnel it into in the right direction and this is what all of our projects are actually trying to do this can actually help a lot of a lot of you know um environments and drive a lot of change every year yeah to make a small addition on that to give a sense of what3 trillion dollar per year would do um there's an estimate I think by the Long View organization not not sure what they're called their estimate was that with $1 trillion dollar per year um uh you could eradicate extreme poverty hunger um HIV malaria and I'm forgetting one other disease so that that would be pretty nice that would be pretty nice and this is just in one year right that sounds like a lot of slippage that's like escaping the ecosystem I think one one of the problems especially one of the things that all of you touched on is uh specifically with with refi uh and perhaps The Branding when people think about impact they they're like especially retail like oh I can't make money doing this so it has a liquidity problem so is it a branding problem like is because it sounds like what what each of you is trying to do is is would solve a lot of world problems yeah and I think that you've hit it on the head which is that people associate refi with uh you know with giving their money away as opposed to uh you know having a powerful Financial tool at their disposal and and part of that is like our fault as nerds you know we we haven't uh put all of the different pieces in place yet to deliver Financial regener generative tools that uh are Nob brainers like they're just as strong just as powerful as other def tools yeah I have a couple of reactions that on one hand um I think that your point earlier star Garden about making these attractive yield opportunities that also have a positive impact as a byproduct is one way to get those degens thinking like oh I can actually deploy my money toward positive impact and still capture reasonable yield on it but then on the other hand uh there's also an opportunity to reward people for giving their money away this is something that I think traditional philanthropy gets really right for the big dollar donations you know you get your name on a building or on a foundation but then for the small dollar donations if I donate you know10 or $20 a month I don't get anything from the nonprofit to like show to my friends and put on my social media and this something where I think there's an inspiration from carbon credits that's now being applied more generally one of the few things I think the refi Community is getting right which is this idea of impact ATT testation the idea being that when you have a positive impact you get a reward in the form of a certificate or an nft that represents the positive impact you have so in the case of a carbon credit when you retire or destroy the carbon credit and claim the underlying benefit you get a certificate and you can put that on your website put that in your social media and now we see that idea being applied to other dimensions of impact I think that's a really powerful model for showing that you're not necessarily giving away your money for nothing you're giving away your money and then you get in return the opportunity to show basically The Virtue signal hey I did the right thing are you doing the right thing and that becomes a pressure point for galvanizing more impact yeah sure um I agree with everything that they said like completely I would just add that um by you know putting everything on chain we are also letting almost everyone in the world have access to this so everybody can participate in this and take part of this so there is a big inclusion that is there and since the blockchain is like very divisible uh you don't really have to be that rich to participate you can be actually quite poor you can be from some very remote area as long as you have internet which almost everybody today has you can just participate in this ecosystem so I think this is how this ecosystem is also uh growing and has like a enormous potential uh over the traditional system that is there traditional system is okay but we can do so much better so yeah um yeah I wanted to disagree with what you just said I I know there's a debate in philanthropy uh whether if you participate in philanthropy should you tell other people about it um and sort of like underlying like what should your motivation be should you m be motivated by pure uh egoless alism or is it okay to be motivated by status or you know social dynamics and stuff like that showing off and um personally like if if people are motivated by pure alism and don't want to talk about their uh philanthropy power to them right but if we can get more people altruistic by giving them bragging rights or uh Karma points or flashy status symbols um why not right like let's plug into human nature if it leads us to the right things I would say yeah and so it's it's interesting because as um you know as people to build impact oriented uh products there's two components there which one is like the status and the other one is just the raw Feelgood nature of doing the good thing and it's it's interesting to like balance those two things and also see what your what your customers really want because some customers uh they really want the feel good they want to know they contributed to something positive they want to look into the impact that their fund uh is actually having and other people they just want that flashy attestation or nft and they just want to be like you know flash that on the timeline so yeah I want to add one other point on this which is about incentives um and I really do think that on one hand it if you're if you can attest that the activity that you supported has a positive impact I don't necessarily care that much about what incentive actually got you over the line to allocate money what I I care about is that you are publicly and transparently showing hey this is what I spent money on and whether you did that because you have a marketing budget that you know allocated to sustainability initiatives or because your regulator is breathing down your neck and you're worried about them you know forcing you to use a compliance Market or something um the point is that you're attesting to your positive impact in a transparent and verifiable way as compared to the status quo today with corporate sustainability reports is like you dump a 50-page PDF on your website nobody reads it and so it's hard to tell you know they say carbon neutral the top of the website but like how do I actually know do I have to go read this 50 page PDF and there's actually been some uh some regulatory angles taken on this issue in the EU and also in the US um trying to put in place stronger regulations around how people make claims like carbon neutral or sustainability goals uh so that they're actually backing it up with verifiable information instead of just a giant PDF that no one reads I was just thinking about the the flow of money and and how how you can get more more value into the hands of the I guess the the tail end of the sides of the projects you're working on and how do how do we create that impact in these local communities [Music] um if if glow for example if it's the same if it spends the same it holds the same has the same interoperability as usdc how do you how do you get more people to start using it well it's definitely not easy um the the incumbents have great Network effects um and um as a challenger you are faced with this double chicken and neck problem or perhaps even Triple Chicken and neck problem where you are behind on uh users liquidity and Integrations um and Builders will integrate you when when users start asking for it but users will use you when there's Integrations and you have the same loop with liquidity so I don't think there is um a shortcut it is a matter of um spreading the word keep doing it consistently um and then making the right steps on all of these three fronts in sort of loback um and slowly but surely knocking over uh new wins um what what I think really helps there as a strategy is that most people and most organizations just don't want to be the ones to take a risk uh at first they want to see others do it first um the good thing with stable coins and I guess withed with any tokenized thing is that there's no need for anyone to go all in at once um for instance gitcoin is holding multiple million dollars of usdc um we don't have to have them dump all of their usdc for glow dollar tomorrow um they bought a six figure amount of glow dollars a while ago and that's the first step and then a while later polygon Labs also bought a six figure amount of glow dollar and then last week the shutter Dow bought a six figure amount of do dollar so they're still mostly holding usdc but now they're all gradually diversifying and they're doing it collectively so they can look at one another like oh you you took the next step okay now we feel um certain enough about this new thing to also take the next step and then I think slowly but surely you know as a as an ecosystem we can um we we can move away from uh from the incumbents did you want um and then I guess the same question to Kyle uh and with the the prolifer the eventual proliferation of of Z how do you how do you Vision um being able to get it into the hands of people who need it yeah so that's a really interesting question and there's there's two main components to our strategy for building liquidity and actually getting the zy token out to users one is obviously partnering with um partnering with asset managers and custodians uh digital asset custodians so that's basically how do we get traditional asset managers that have large uh funds loaded with carbon credits loaded with renewable energy certificates and green bonds how do we get them to actually work with a tokenization provider bring that collateral onchain and use it to generate more Z stable coins and then the second half of that is just aggressively partnering with market makers and liquidity providers from ecosystems and defi you know curve stake Capital all these guys that we've been talking to um even potentially PayPal USD because suddenly there's this this PayPal USD that's available you know these are ways that we are going to work to get the uh the Z token to be very liquid to get it to be utilized uh get incentives from platforms like Aerodrome you know platforms that will actually incentivize uh liquidity on our behalf uh again curve and then another thing that's interesting so we have a stability module that allows the protocol to achieve 100% Capital efficiency but only with preapproved stable coins and only with a certain ceiling so it's a CDP but it's not a user generated CDP it's a protocol generated CDP so now that we're talking about glow dollar like we might actually want to launch a stable uh stability module for Asos protocol that uses uh the maybe the glow dollar as a onetoone backing for zy and that allows us to like scale our supply of Z up and down rapidly in response to changes in demand so yeah so the thing is like all of us all three of you guys up here have like this super cool interesting potential uh way for isos protocol to to utilize what you're building Josh you asked earlier about sort of how can these Technologies bring Financial infrastructure to smaller communities to local people on the ground who might not otherwise have access to traditional Financial INF structure and there's a really specific use case that a protocol like Asos unlocks where let's say we have a project developer in India they're you know Distributing uh improved cook stoves to their local community to reduce emissions in a traditional Market they would need to go and borrow money from a financer or get investment from a a Speculator who wants to buy their credits ahead of time they then take those take that money go and buy the cook stoes distribute them and then typically 18 months to three years later they finally get their credits delivered and then they can go sell the credits get cash turn around and do more of the project so the question is can we use some of the defi Primitives that have been developed to shorten that process and there's a couple different points where you could do that on one hand once the first phase of the project has been completed and those initial spot credits have been delivered you can then collateralize those rather than selling them on the open market because selling them might take six months to actually move but if you can collateralize them on day one unlock say 20 or 30% of the capital go start doing more of the project you get that flywheel moving a little bit faster the other interesting opportunity would be taking the forward credits I.E the the promise to deliver and collateralizing that that's a bit of a harder stretch because they're a less liquid instrument by definition U but that's potentially another opportunity to really speed up that flywheel and drive more Capital yeah I'm I'm super interested to talk about the the undelivered credits and like maybe how the how that would uh pass our risk assess framework but it's It's Tricky It's Tricky I'm glad we have people with with deep knowledge because I'm I'm a nerd I'm a defi nerd okay I don't know nearly as much about the the carbon credits and and the green bonds and stuff but I like I love learning about it and I'm really honored to be on this panel with all three of you guys there's another word we use for defi nerds right degens you're so but I'm you you're all degens all of you yes but but you're in the regenerative space so what's the before we get into the second layer of the question what what's the difference between a djen and a regen okay so this is my hot take uh this is where I start to diverge from most people who consider themselves Regens or refight nerds because in my opinion decentralized Finance by its very nature it delivers more power more inclusivity more Equity to to anyone on the planet and that by its very nature is regenerative so I don't think that refi and defi are different things I think that refi is defi I think all Regens you Regens you're Deens yeah that's that's an interesting take but I I hear you sort of like presume that the D and degenerates comes from Define and so so so sometimes that might be true but my my take on dents is dents are people who um I think in the in in the most basic sense they they live for um weird and spectacular happening like they like numbers um uh unexpectedly going up in in in weird volumes um uh they like sort of like scandals they like to see um rock pools um uh unless it's them being Rock pooled of course they just like blowing up and going to the Moon um uh and I think dents are s like a stage one where it's like oh this is awesome weird is happening but I'm not really I'm not really thinking too much yet about where it's all leading or where it's all going on which which numbers are exploding and then I think a regen is someone who likes all the stuff that a genen likes but then sort of like going to the next level like ah okay we're having fun and all and I'm making profits but in the long run like what does this mean like what is the what is the systemic result of this kind of thing and um um with glow dollar last uh month actually we um so as as a stable coin issuer we sometimes feel a little bit conflicted we we we want to also be this this serious organization that you can trust to hold very traditional trfy accounts in a US regulated way so sometimes we want to Market ourselves to the D crowd but it's it's difficult right um but last month we did a sort of collaboration with the regen token the the mushroom uh Club um and they did this weird thing where you could get a 100x multiplier on your regen tokens if you donated in glow dollars on cell and suddenly we had I think hundreds of new people who never touched glow dollar um uh trying to figure out how they could get their hands on Glow Doll on cell and that's like okay that's that de gen power um um um attached to a to a regen initiative and it does work I have to say it does work I I was one of them actually that was probably one of the first times I tried to use it all 100 wallets were Josh trying um yeah I mean I think this is a really interesting question and at Cleo we've certainly um been on a wild ride trying to harness the power of degenerate activity to drive uh regenerative impact you you know I I do I do push back a little bit on the sort of synthesis that you're going for trying to bring the Deen and Regens uh Under One Roof in particular because there is a specific aspect of the degenerate mindset that I think many Regens find themselves a bit uh put off by which is the profit Maxi mindset like I'm going to do everything I can to get the most yeld to generate the most wealth for myself and I I think it's a really delicate thing to balance because on one hand I think a lot of the power of the blockchain ethos of Open Source technology decentralized Finance is around enabling people to take control of their own money take control of their own software and do what they want to do with it rather than sort of the prescribed um what is appropriate and I do worry that some of the regen movement has gotten a bit up in their own head about like oh well if we're making money then that means we're the baddies and I think that's a bit misguided and I worry that that's where the regen movement has has struggled and and gone astray is around this this emphasis on no we were not allowed to make money we can't have profits that's for the bad people and I don't know I've never felt that way myself but I have sensed this tension in a lot of the the conversations I've been a part of in the regen movement but actually if we're going to be regenerative we need sustainable business models to like Drive money through the door so that we can go keep doing the important positive impact that we're all about um and so I do think that marrying the degenerate mindset with regenerative uh ethos is a really powerful and fertile soil uh but it requires some difficult conversations to be had about like what are appropriate ways to make money and appropriate ways to spend that money yeah I would also end with like my my thinking I I also think that regenerative uh people are the subgroup of dig uh dig they firstly want to make money and they are very interested in the centralization with which they in theory include other people but I would say it's not always like that biggest care to include other people is not always there with dents I mean it's there but it's not the prim while regenerative Finance is um putting a big a big uh focus on impact and on other people uh and I'd say it's really hard to say Where's the Line but I would say there is some difference when we come to this uh it's just mainly that both of them of course want profit and both of them want decentralized but D sometimes are mainly profit and not necessarily decentralization although this is their primary goal while regenerative Finance is a lot about impact yeah so we've definitely gotten to the exact part of like my beef with the the artificial distinction between Regens and Deens and for me it boils down to this so in the normal Financial system the people who are profit maxing with your cash is not even you you don't even get to be a profit Maxi in the normal traditional Financial system so as a d genen if you are acting as a profit Maxi for yourself that is still regenerative because you as the individual you have been included in this system you are receiving the equity from this system that uses your own resources that's regenerative Finance by many people's definitions so and also one more thing okay so if we don't build regenerative Finance to tools that deliver the highest profits to individual users the game theory suggests we will not get mainstream adoption through those tools we actually have to provide Financial tools that are every bit as powerful as non-impact Financial tools and that is like that's the secret that's the that's the Catalyst that sucks uh Capital liquidity and mind share into regenerative Finance so I think I agree with what you say but I I'm I'm spotting potentially a paradox but but please help me out so if you're saying that the traditional Financial system um is uh not in the individual's best interest and if you're saying that game theoretically we should allow the individuals to maximize their profit otherwise we will not get mainstream adoption and third observation the trfi financial system has mainstream adoption how how can the trfi system have gotten mainstream adoption because they are not getting theoretically optimal then right the answer to that question is violence fair enough fair enough fair enough that that froms Game Theory or is that so like yeah so then is it a branding problem the like the the concept regen is a atically associated with not being a capitalist I don't think so I mean you can still be capitalist in region right like you can still believe that money is the main thing but you also just want to put it in the right direction um I would also say like in dig you have a lot of projects that are not completely decentralized but they are crypto D will still go for it sometimes not all of them regions ah I don't think this is the whole point of region so I think this is the where the line starts forming I think this is the challenge when you're talking about cultural movements in general that there are many different kinds of people with many different incentives and motivations and um we're we're trying to put words on things right we're trying to have clear definitions and and speak about movements um but the reality is that there's a plurality of different U perspectives within a given movement I think what what can be helpful is distinguishing uh values right what is what are the value systems that we are trying to align behind and at that level I think the regen meme has been really powerful in a way that the Degen meme I mean people definitely rally behind it but it's like in a sort of half half self-mocking uh like tongue and cheek way of like yeah I'm a d gen too um whereas I think Regens have this like proud like they're trying to stand up for the values they believe in I wish that degens could proud and like stand up for the values that are behind the web three space especially when it comes to uh you know Solutions and platforms that are maybe not actually decentralized and not actually using open source code uh obviously in 22 we saw the Fallout of quite a few centralized systems that sort of Walk The Walk of being a d gen or sorry talk the talk of being a d gen but were actually just traditional financial institutions in new clothes and so I think the DJ Community needs to be very Vigilant about that kind of thing conversely the regen movement needs to be very Vigilant about real business models because we've seen a lot of projects come up and just try to raise money on an idea that doesn't really make sense as a business and then when they go to talk to investors or or the community about hey we want to raise all this money to go and do something but then our business model is we're just going to give away money forever and then when we run out of money it's over yeah you you brought up values and a while ago we we sat down with the team to Define our company values um and one phrase that we ended up with was um we're hacking capitalism for impact and we thought it was a good phrase because hacking capitalism um does not imply that you're uh Pro or anti- capitalism you're just working with what you've been given um so I forance I go to Devos every year and I might privately puke about that sort of like subset of the world but that doesn't matter like I'm just trying to raise market cap because that will raise impact and I know that if I go to that I have meetings that will help me do that um so that is I think very much regen um you're not necessarily saying the system you're saying hey system um I will come at you and I will reach my goals with you or without you um let's see let's see how it ends up something like that yeah I think like you know you're 100% right there's a branding issue with uh with the regen uh well with refi with the refi space and then you know you you pointed out probably the the real cause like the root cause of this like you have people motiva so much by wanting to do good that they feel like taking any kind of profit or generating Revenue like generating profit is bad and so those two things I think are kind of connected you know you look you think about refi and a lot of refi projects they um yeah they they give the money away and I think that makes it hard for average defi users your average dgen doesn't want to participate in that system I actually I don't think that DJ and regen are opposite sides of a coin because you can be both to me I think of a dgen as um anyone who has a non over 20 or is one of the first couple hundred people to use a contract or first million to use a contract in TBL it's more about the insecurity or potential the new rails that you're you're testing out and that's like the you're being degenerate with your money whereas I don't think that when you're using these regenerative Finance tools they also could be dgen like the I was one of the first people to use the new give contracts and that's that's a dgen move I mean in many ways the story of cadow is the story of turning DG into regen or you know using the D gen impulse to drive positive activity um I do think it's really powerful um but it comes with risk right and especially if people are not clear on what they're trying to do um there can be a lot of confusion and you know in the in the wake of of the cadal launch I think we brought in well I know we brought in thousands of new people that were otherwise not at all familiar with so many Deens but but then on the other hand there were tens of thousands of Deens who were you know aping in it at all-time highs and you know it's hard it's hard to manage expectations um but I do think that that's why conversation and dialogue between people who identify as Deens and people who identify in regen can be really productive because you can help people see um yeah like what are the motivations and and incentives out there as opposed to things that are driving my behavior what incentives are driving other people's behavior yeah I've got to say my my definition of a d gen is much closer to yours which is like pioneering people who love risk who are willing to use experimental software and like plug their money into it and I think uh I think Andre crer from Ur summed it up the best when he said test and PR you know even gitcoin tests and PR you know in a way right in crypto we have this tendency to sort of like come up with new names for things that don't really need a new name and you know I think for decades now we have had this very boring sounding term called an early adopter and maybe as a big part of being a djent is just sort of like we're just putting a new name on being an early adopter in a way with maybe the the risk added into that just it stands for degenerate okay so uh we we've got about 10 minutes left I wanted to give you each an opportunity to do a little future casting what is what's your what's your vision for what the regenerative future should look like VV stable coins so my vision for a regenerative future is that every time you are engaged in a transaction every time you're spending money or sending money to someone a small portion of that transaction is directly funding climate impact and through these mechanisms we're able to address planetary boundaries get our situation under control and manage the planet ultimately as a public good for all the people who are using the money to benefit from uh this uh this profit sync that uh that is inherent part of any money system yeah my my vision is actually quite optimistic I think uh especially with crypto getting in uh regenerative finance and just like helping the communities um I don't expect major CH changes because of that I expect more of a Reformation of how we live currently but of course for the better so in the way that we financially include more people uh than we did before uh they have more equal chances than they had before because traditional Finance is dominated by big players I'm not saying that we're not going to be dominated by the big players at least in Bitcoin etherum and the biggest uh places but on small places there's still going to be lots of space for everyone and we this is where we actually let everybody com in and if somebody is super talented I think they can succeed and it's like really great to see that you know this inclusion when everybody has well not everybody will have exactly the same chances but almost it's like getting closer uh I think this is a great thing um I know that when I was young I I wanted to work in finance and uh I wanted to work at you know top jobs that are out there and I came from a small country called Slovenia and if I want that there just nothing in Slovenia because we're too small there's just not big enough market so you got to go abroad like uh big Financial Centers like London uh at my time and now Frankfurt New York something like that um I think now this is going to decentralize um and everybody who is motivated enough can actually get there which is one and one thing great on the second thing we're actually connecting um people who need money with those who have it and I think this connection is going to be better uh we are Crossing Borders without problems in crypto um there is no real problems with you know actual Crossing Borders when you're sending your crypto abroad um even if politics is preventing you they cannot really prevent it because hey we are decentralized we can send money wherever we want and we can fund anybody with a great vision so if you're with a great vision and before that you didn't really have good access to the capital I'm not saying now it's going to be perfect no far from that there's still going to be places which going to have better uh conditions than others but you will have a standing chance and um I think this will this will drive the change on a much better uh not just green but also like communities that are you know disadvantaged right now they will be I'm not going to say they're going to be equal but they're going to be less disadvantaged which is by itself great to hear and yeah my my vision for the future is very optimistic but mainly because of blockchain I think blockchain still holds huge potential for changes it changed a little bit but I think this is we're just scratching the surface and um I'm I'm very excited about the future and of course we have talked about this in the panel but I think uh with using the AI and AI advancements in the right way we can do this even better um this is by the way something that Kaja is working hard very hard at but again this was not the topic of this panel so I didn't really go deep into this but I think there's a good potential for the change in the future there and it's we're not going to make Revolution but we're going to reform the current system for the better this is my thinking at least uh I'll keep it short my fici for REI is that glow dollar replaces uh 30% of all Fiat money in the world such that we make $1.1 trillion of Revenue per year and we can finally eradicate hunger extreme poverty malaria HIV and the one I'm still forgetting there was was the fifth one yeah so my my vision for the future is uh is pretty crazy science fiction uh a decade from now I Envision all sorts of uh decentralized physical infrastructure networks that are handling things like generating clean energy producing clean water um you know sequestering Carbon providing things in people's lives that they just don't have today and things that are going to massively enrich people's lives working in that exact same direction you know ending ending poverty ending uh hunger ending these uh these problems that realistically our society shouldn't even have globally because we're we're so healthy we're so productive that we have these problems it's like uh it's it's shameful honestly so we're going to see all sorts of crazy things we're going to see you know we're going to see autonomous robotics uh that are building like solar production um you know we're we're seeing the very formations of these Technologies with things like power Ledger um you know these physical decentralized infrastructure networks that are generating energy Distributing energy producing renewable energy certificates maybe they're sequestering carbon they're producing carbon credits and Asos protocol is sort of this uh sort of this this grease on the wheels of all that that allows these individual networks to get access to Capital on demand as they're doing regenerative activities I mean this is like we're talking 10 years in the future this is 15 years in the future this is the world this is the world we want our children to grow up in is that is that in Fiat years or is that crypto years that is Fiat years that's like 1 billion years from now in crypto we'll see you at ECC 17 uh yes absolutely okay uh yeah are there any audience questions we have a few minutes left no we got any questions from the audience members anybody want to take a crack okay all right well we can we can wrap it any last thoughts no are you guys did a great job treat yourself to some waffles the Belgian waffles are fantastic all right oh yeah we're going after waffles and Fries definitely yeah oh oh the FRS and beef absolutely okay cut seed oils out of your diet and uh have a great day guys [Applause]