PANEL: How To Build A Truly Censorship Resistant Currency?

baby [Music] [Applause] all right last panel of the day also last session of stable Summit thank you so much for staying with us I promise you this is gonna be a spicy one if you've been following the posts on Twitter corresponding to this panel you already know what I'm talking about but if not no worries you're gonna catch up live with us today so okay people are asking whether we can have one more mic it's okay facts doesn't Hello it's all good it's a fractionalized mic hello okay so today we talk about how to build a truly censorship resistant currency so we start with that why is the case that we still don't have such a solution yet we're gonna explore what's why that's the case we're also gonna look at what is the level of decentralization and censorship resistance of different uh stablecoin solutions that we have today and also we're gonna explore what's still missing and basically how we can improve as an ecosystem before we jump into the conversation I suggest we run a short session of intros I'm gonna start myself so my name is Bianca Busa I'm the founder of deveral uni at devrel Uni we teach people how to do developer relations and basically how to bring developers to the ecosystem I'm gonna pass it now to our lovely panelists thank you so much hey everyone I'm D5 Dave I am a core Advocate at frax a small humble part of the community and I am the founder and co-host of flybo defy a Grassroots media organization dedicated covering frax defy and everything in between hey guys my name is David I am one of the co-founders of raft raft is a CDP protocol that uses liquids taking tokens as collateral perfect that's it someone is playing around uh hi guys I'm Benjamin I'm Chief janitor at Cheeto protocol I clean the toilets you know watch the windows cheetah is a cross chain CDP protocol it's the most cross-chained CTP protocol uh yeah that's all and hi I'm Bryce a more known as token Bryce on on CT and around I've been involved in quite a few things doing D5 since it pretty much started uh but yeah I guess the main achievements would be the French Community D5 friends and I'm also the D5 strategist at liquidy and Link topics related to liquidity and integration on iusd stablecoin and qty all right thank you all now that we met our panelists for tonight I suggest we start with a broad overview on the ecosystem so I would like to start with what are the characteristics in your opinion that basically Define a truly censorship resistant currency if I don't if you don't mind that I start because it was literally the topic of my last talk in Belgrade if you if you want to have a deep dive on this for 30 minutes but essentially I map it and the four different dimensions four to five but I'm gonna be easy with you and go with four so the first one is related to the collateral you know you're outputting your stable coins meaning you have some form of tokens or whatever real world assets something that has value that is used to back this stablecoin this karate one has characteristics that will have consequences on the stablecoin um so that's the First Dimension the second dimension would be related to governance so your system your stable can have or not a governance and this governance can change the system so you'll have consequences and impact on its resilience the third dimension would be related and that's often forgotten uh it's a liquidity component so this is for instance where Terra failed you know because the liquidity was simply not sized to stomach on the outflows and eventually it crashed and finally the fourth one is also quite misunderstood it's a broad family of technical risk but the thing here is you have the technical risk of the protocol itself but you also need to properly assess any third-party dependency of that protocol so if the protocol is using the collateral in another protocol it becomes part of your riskope and so on and since you have a lot of you know connections and and and Inter usability of D5 protocols it can be a bit messy to to assess one thing to keep in mind with that too is that those four dimensions worked in the logic of the lowest common denominator so for instance if that's at the collateral stage your collateral has the party so for instance you use usdc as collateral you have counterparty here you know you have actual bank accounts in the US that are holding the asset and those might have issues you kind of know the drill essentially this means I don't care what happened at the four other layers because of the lowest common denominator logic you cannot achieve censorship resilience with a collateral that has a counterparty I like to piggyback off what you just said about the ustcs collateral I think one aspect as well on the counterparty risk is liquidations because at least three of us here rely a lot on liquidations if there is a drop in the price of your collateral you have to be able to liquidate that puts a great risk because you have a dependency on dexis if there is no dexes for people to exchange eth for your other tokens then that can become a problem especially when you're talking about the the quality of those taxes depends of the modern though because for instance on liquidity we have stability pool with for USD so you don't need liquidity on taxes to liquidate the liquidity is already there to liquidate up to whatever is stored in the stability pool yeah well somebody would have to go to the stability pool to buy the eth right but essentially the reserve is supplied by depositors and available instantly for liquidation so literally up to anything stored in the liquid stability pool can be used for liquidation so that was right now the liquidity protocol can liquidate about 60 of the whole borrowing value oh yeah and there's where I guess the the problem lies right because you have to be able to bootstrap enough to liquid everything and uh it's amazing to be able to have uh like some sort of like native liquidations but if you're relying on the protocol to liquidate and it's not able to liquidate you're kind of screwed can I can I ask you this a little bit about the censorship resistance of of the collateral types in my opinion I have a little bit of a different view here I think for any CDP protocol the important thing is that the collateral doesn't have any sort of blacklisting function so the collateral doesn't get stuck in the protocol and it's always capable of being liquidated so in my opinion having for example dye as collateral doesn't actually add any sort of censorship risk as long as those positions can be taken out and liquidated and the positions are over collateralized that because there's no Blacklist function any sort of deviation or any black Black Swan event would be actually reflecting the price of dye it would drop and then the positions would be taken out so I think like the important thing is like the censorship resistance of the collateral on The Blacklist level and I think that's a good point that you mentioned that diet doesn't have too much risk with the blacklisting but it is risk because it's another asset and so if we go back to finance fundamentals how do you get rid of most of the risk you diversify because you will never be able to get rid of like the overall Market risk so you should be able to accept as many collaterals as you can within the range of what is safe and that will make you a safer protocol than if you just accept one uh collateral that's my point of view you're kind of just all like taking what I've been thinking um for me with the censorship resistance I've kind of view it as a spectrum um and I think you can um like the most censorship resistant thing out there is Bitcoin to be honest if you want like a truly censorship resistant currency you use Bitcoin if you're going to use the stablecoin especially a dollar tax table coin you're inherently going into a dollar Peg a dollar Universe like you'll always be tied to that no matter what your collateral is so you're accepting that you can only kind of minimize the surface area of censorship so if you care about censorship a lot use something with only eat collateral if you want something that scales use something with us like dollar pad collateral so you know usdc yeah it's you have Circle but you can scale with that it would be better if you had something else like more native backing it of course but it exists on a spectrum actually brings me to the next topic so we explored a bit about the censorship resistance in different uh projects but maybe we go more in depth and we kind of do an analysis about different projects that exist right now in terms of stable coins and what is their status in terms of decentralization and sensorship censorship resistant yeah I mean it's good to remember that the whole decentralization or trustlessness is indeed a spectrum as Dave was saying and if you want to be okay we're amongst Pro here so if you want to be perfectly accurate I would say as of no there is no censorship resistance stable coin on mainnet like to the absolute end of the spectrum and if you're on the full Deeds for Equity we are uh I mean not we but like the protocol is recognized as the most uh censorship resistant but essentially the main caveat would be that Bible I mean let's say we're going to make I mean like that we can debate but I guess of course you guys on the panel won't agree but the broader defy space agrees and every independent Brothers on like trying to build but anyway so like the main limit for Equity would be that at the Oracle level there is uh two Oracle Services used with a logic to switch in between so that is not a single point of failure but that's like a written a double single point of value or whatever you want to call this but you see that obviously not ideal obviously you would want answers about trustless or records and tons of them so that would be an area of improvement we just kind of to show that you know as of no we don't even know if it's theoretically possible or at least so far I would be glad to see a stable coin coming to mainnet that can actually be placed right to equity on the censorship resilience Spectrum I'll be like the most happy person the day that happened but so far it hasn't happened I think it's important as well to be very honest about the risk associated with your protocol I remember in the time of Luna when that was uh going on if you said anything bad about Luna I mean like you were destroyed on crypto Twitter and if we remain honest and we remain very open about receiving criticism I think we can keep users safe and we can let them make the decision because the truth is that whenever you make a decision on how to make your protocol safe for a more censorship persistent you are exchanging that for something else like you're letting go of something else uh like for example a cheetah we there are a lot of things that you can upgrade there are a lot of things that you can change via governance and we do that because we think that the current state of infrastructure is not where it's going to be at its end State and perhaps it will never be an end State and so you you take away in that you don't know what the changes are going to be right but you gain in that you can adapt to a changing world where infrastructure can improve yeah and I think if you talk about Oracle specific that's a very good example of that about how we basically all rely on some sort of chain link chain link yeah specifically yeah chain link or other local providers and I think like the question here in terms of like the censorship censorship resistance standpoint is like who do you want the users to trust do they want do you want you to trust do you want the users to trust chain link or do you want them to trust the protocol and this is where the idea comes in with that whether is it better to hard code an oracle or is it better to be able to change it because the censorship resistance comes from being able to censor chain link itself or the protocol multisig and that that was a question right which one's better yes I'll just add the caveat that as soon as you have governance and mutable parameters you add an attack Vector to your system so for instance in the case of raft it's a three out of five multisig and anyone that gained control of this military can do tremendous damage to the protocol yeah I mean I would add to the governance part there have been a lot of Innovations happening because at the start it was like you vote and the vote causes changes in the protocol but if you look at optimism for example they have like the different houses like all the citizens or whatever um there are ways of adding more humans into it to make it safer but then I guess More Humans more in uh you don't know what's going to happen yeah and speaking of Innovations you know one of the biggest criticisms of practice I was given is the multi-stick around it uh recently what passed is a fraxcov which also gets rid of the multi-cigs and brings ultimate power to the Token holders and yeah it's like some action can be like taken by the team but it takes a lot longer there's a lot more checks and like honestly like if the protocol wanted to dissolve and like somebody like got enough fxs tokens they could do that but that's you know something we sacrifice for decentralization yeah yeah I agree with that um yeah I want to go back into the to the Oracle part a little bit and discuss a little bit more because I think my point is partly misunderstood is that if you have an oracle uh for example chain link it's basically a wholly off chain logic that's happening there you're relying on a bunch of different uh sources to provide provide that information to you and then that is that better to rely on those parties um exclusively and rely on things like the chain links deviation threshold the fact that it's going to happen good there's no bugs or is it better to trust a multi-sig and a Dao to actually say okay guys if something bad happens with chain link we don't tie the entire future of the project to that but we can replace that with something else and I think this is a very important question yeah I mean if if you're doing very vanilla assets like eth I think there are less chances that something's going to go wrong but if you're trying to be like for us we're trying to be a stable coin for projects we're trying to be a stable coin for various chains and that has a lot of unknowns and so you need some sort of upgradability perhaps with liquidy only accepting eth they can kind of get away with hoping that chain link will be fine I mean channing's a wonderful team we all like chain link we all use chain link but you make a good point that who knows what's going to happen yeah sure yeah and I mean you can address for this with redundancy and if you ask me now uh to our heart code another is based Oracle into a system again as I was saying earlier I would probably add another two or three layers of Oracle based on price observes on dexes or things like that but you also have to keep in mind that liquidity was designed was shipped to mainnet in April 2021 so design even before that so essentially composing with the best options available at the time you guys launched in April 2021 yes more than two years old I think we identify some potential points of centralization such as for example the Reliance of oracles but how else you would say that we can achieve further this decentralization besides basically finding some solutions around these problems what else still needs to be addressed in order to have a better decentralized system when it comes to stable coins I think the biggest question that hasn't been answered and this is shared amongst all different kinds of stable coins is liquidity because today liquidity costs way too much money and for any stable coin to succeed long term you need to have good liquidity and a lot of the OG ethereum stable coins rely on CRV positions rely on CVX to cut down their cost of capital we For Better or For Worse don't have any of that because we started on polygon and so we have to be very acutely aware of how much we spend on liquidity Mining and you know there's like solidly Forex that last like three months and there's like different things you can do that are very ephemeral but to this day I haven't seen something that can easily scale and can you can rely on for the next 10 years right like liquidity has been so like ever-changing that um if if something changes you can really destroy the peg of a stable coin and that's a way of censoring it I'm just having flashbacks for an interview when he just kept on saying cost of capital cost yeah but it's true liquidity is such a big issue and you know with markets it comes and goes I mean yeah like the top of the bowl like there was so much liquidity there but like now like you really have to get creative and that's what you know that's why curve is so important in the ecosystem because it's really the foundation of liquidity it's like the liquidity base and you know at facts we recognize that and that's I kind of consider for Access like the ultimate liquidity player in it and like that's the most important thing for our stablecoin is being able like having the option to you know swap for like hundreds of millions of dollars like yeah will that happen yeah at some point in the future but we need that option there yeah maybe not with circle now that they're like ever smaller we have to start thinking of how are we going to survive without them how are we going to make liquidity because if there's less and less Circle then it's going to be increasingly more expensive to sustain liquidity pools yeah thank you I think this kind of brings us to the whole question of like how how the how liquidity is so important to maintaining a peg right and all of the stable coins that we have rely on multiple mechanisms like hard pack stuff bag and the soft pack is the important part where you have the liquidity needs to be around the one dollar Mark so that people can actually use the stable coin and for this like um liquidity mining is probably not the good long-term solution we can see all the liquidity it hasn't been too sticky lately so what are the other ways that we can we we can we can make this work we've seen a bunch of different approaches we've seen protocol on liquidity kind of taking off for a little while and then since token valuations have dropped significantly that has become a less efficient way because you don't have that much money to play with um if the protocol's native token valuation is 100 million dollars and there's only so much you can do to acquire liquidity yourself um but I think like if we and when we go into the bull market that will probably come back as one of the the important things that we can all rely on acquired liquidity for the protocol itself and that's going to be sticky even if during turbulent times when the market drops after I think one thing that fraction liquidity will agree with me here is Partnerships is a big thing I mean if you look at any decks outside of ethereum it's frax my and liquidity on the l2s and and it's all because we're working together I mean it's very expensive to maintain liquidity on these l2s where retail once 20 for the stablecoin but you can only charge two percent of the loans and it's been through these like crazy complicated schemes that we do to try to maintain liquidity that we're able to lower the cost of capital but even then it's too high even then it's very complicated so I mean I look forward to seeing more stable coins come out like go like CRV USD maybe they can join the fun maybe you guys decide to go across chain yeah and it's important for all of us to work together in a positive some manner otherwise centralized stable coins are just going to eat our lunch yeah this is what our boat to suggest when you guys were a bit uh worried about what are we going to do in the world without usdc but hello guys you can grow your LUSD pair you will have a censorship resistant pairing or as censorship resistant as this can be and this is also why I was saying earlier you know this is one of the biggest blocker Antiquity because okay we say I agree with you on the means and finding sustainable solution but let's abstract this for a minute you give me a million to build liquidity with all right who are we building liquidity against usdc sensorable liquidity not so interesting all the state boards we often run into the same thing so essentially to put it simply even liquidity itself would have a lot to gain by having another as censorship resilient or more censorship resilience stablecoin existing on mainnet because then would be like the happiest to pair against them and build liquidity with them but they would run into the same issue that a lot of the new stable concern because if you're forking liquidy you're charging point five percent I'm not saying a liquid form nothing a model of stablecoin that is as censorship resistance if you're if you're a new stable coin today and you're trying to partner with somebody who are you going to partner with dollar or frax because they're throwing money or you're going to uh yeah you should try that guys I see those usdc or the dipole man at least two DSR men yeah we have a big dipole it's like a 38 million dollar at this point but even that's like you know should be way bigger baseball has been great for us to enter into ethereum uh CRV USD is quite nice because the team there is pretty amenable and they're willing to help out but in the end of the day it's like yeah you need those kind of like LPS and it's a bit of a structural situation too I guess this is what people are are missing on on those liquidity games is to put it simply 99 of the time most of your liquidity is useless because you know if you think about it you take fracks for instance it's a billion face value market cap we can discuss that about that later but it's okay let's say a billion uh okay a billion uh on an average day obviously your users are not buying or dumping a billion of trucks that would be the whole protocol output it's more like trading five million francs that's what you see of daily volume average on on the the curve pool or something like that so you know this is what I mean by most of the day like I don't know how big is the pool no maybe Dave you could tell me let's say like for 500 M or something like that maybe bigger yeah so like on a on an average day they're trading like one percent of the pool but the problem is now you have a day where I don't know East perm system centralized table breaks out or whatever and even happen and you go look at that tool and you might find 200 million volume there because everybody was you know moving money left and right we're characterizing paying back Downs or doing whatever they needed to survive or to capitalize on the upside movement um and so you know essentially that's a whole reflection of you don't need most of your liquidity most of the time but the day you need it you need absolute tons of it because you can have tons of very worried people willing to pay 200 guys to swap the thing and they hopefully want to have a rate as close as one to one to whatever other stable they're going so um in terms of how to use sustain that in the long run it's really hard because it means the trading fees on those spoons are not that exciting to begin with you know like five million of volume on a 500 M Pool like you're not going to sustain that just with Organic fees you need to like distribute tons of incentives to keep those 500 Millions there or have other devices ammo and so on yeah but I think this is like a unique problem that we they face with amms right if you had um on-chain order books that that were very efficient this problem would partly be completely gone because in my opinion if we you know hopefully we'll see l2s that that are way faster in scale to hundreds and hundreds of TPS and then we will see on-chain order books and in that case it will be a whole different issue that we're going to be facing hopefully soon and if that happens I think it's going to be very beneficial for the entire ecosystem yeah I mean uh one Innovation here I know we have to probably switch to another topic but uh I don't know if you guys know kyber but that's an interesting Innovation there because they changed the fees and it's not just about charging as slow possible fees as you can but if you're able to move the fees for when people really want it you charge a lot and then when people don't want it you know you don't charge that much I think maybe those kinds of Innovations could help out sure I mean dynamic dynamic fees I think are available on balancer at this point you can probably play around with that um and then you can even play with things like um changing the the swap fee depending on where the peg is so you can go like one-way swap will be more more expensive in the other way and then and then sort of like have an entire uh scheme around this um we also have a Maverick fan yeah yeah you should probably mention Maverick of course I like the idea but if we go back to a situation of like many people coming one day to swap like you don't fulfill the need because essentially you're going to tell what to those guys no it's one percent yeah I'll give you one one rate but one percent fee so you give me zero nine times if you really want the liquid I mean someone's got to hold the bag but you know to put like the to put it in other things so you understand it's like okay I have too many people in my nightclub how can I manage people well it's pretty simple tell the bouncer to be increasingly more aggressive the more the club is filled so if you come to the club and there is 300 people inside the boxer will just like punch your face like I don't like this you know it works you will have like contained the inflow in your clubs but at what cost you just pinch a ton of faces that's how they regulate Commodities markets right yeah yeah I think we can do a bit better but it is definitely a way to balance input output but yeah I would go more towards a solution that can dynamically rebalance liquidity to adjust those very tough market conditions and that's part of my interest for for Maverick here because it can manage this so I think we got a good understanding of the challenges when it comes to decentralization also around the liquidity or lack of liquidity maybe we shift gears a bit now and we talk about challenges when it comes to censorship resistance what are the challenges there I mean we can go back to the full I think we covered a little bit on that but yeah I think so um I mean so okay in terms of collateral I think we discussed it a little bit but we can go deeper we talked about liquidity and then we have governance and Technical risk essentially we can go a bit deeper on that bridging for facts and mice very important because they're constantly changing they're constantly getting hacked and they all suck I mean they're great Excellence Target are great I never said that they suck but like there's a lot of them that used to be big and now don't exist um and so ability to change and be upgraded was very important for us cross-chain protocols and so I don't even know if you could make a an immutable like you can't change like into a cross chain project outside of the l2s like if you're looking at altel ones because uh multi-chain and then you're done you know multi-chain hack for those things that's exactly why frax built our own Bridge with a frax ferry because of all the hacks going on and with the whole multi-chain debacle happening we were fine because you know none of the fracks was affected yeah I mean for us we aggregate Bridges so when we started first being cross-chained like we saw the bridges and we're like no this is not going to be final so awesome rickety yeah so we've kind of like Aggregate and we give them allocations just like we give vaults allocations and so we had multi-chain in like 20 minutes it was delisted and no we didn't have a loss because of they couldn't Bridge my yeah I think like diversifying the risk there is important but um I think like we've seen with every single crocheting protocol eventually we'll have some sort of problem so now there's zero roxler they're perfect hope so when I walked back there yeah so I mean cross-chain communication between different l1s is technically impossible so you always have to trust somebody and the question is like is it worth trusting somebody and how how do you want to um have everybody on every chain affected by this or do you want to isolate the risk between those people who who actually uh Bridge themselves and they and you offload the rest of them or do you want it to be split across every single user I think those are very important questions well then we get outside of the kind of like technical technical I'm more into like the finance side and you can do that like I think if you're able to maintain the same amount of debt or close to Seminole that a circulating Supply on each chain if there's a huge problem like chain killing problem with a chain you can isolate it by cutting off the bridge and it's not a contagion because if you think about it the accounting closes the loop within each chain and I think that's something that our Dow is currently discussing a lot because of all the chains that we're on and there are several ways to go crocheting after a protocol level and you run into those um those those issues for us a bit more remote because imitable code means you cannot mint LUSD but on mainnet so essentially all of this is impossible for Equity but it doesn't mean you you can't do things so for instance you can still Bridge tokens and here it's more a risk management approach you know in terms of which chains do you support an LUSD liquidity on and and then also the infrastructure you would use so yeah on this front Trying to minimize the scope as much as possible to sustain that bridge only for the highest quality of layer 2's only and that's kind of how we go around this but one thing though to know there's like a lot of people like stani mentioned this during his talk uh before this that the way we get the message is by getting the people and the problem is they're not a lot of people that can borrow on ethereum uh they're not people that can afford that like right now I mean we have 14 000 users versus like the most used CDP on maker I mean on ethereum is makerdale at 2 700 users and so that's a huge difference um but the problem is like yeah like they're not going to go to ethereum so you got to go to the chains that they're on and if you go to the chains that they're on you're going to have to concede a little bit you're gonna have to like Break The Rules uh so actually there is a cheat code we managed to to pull once and we're looking into pulling a second time and it's uh it's essentially those batch Port integration native to an N2 that interact with the N1 protocol so to be a bit more explicit uh your users is on a zedcasting based two more slightly a zabase so not that guessing necessarily and what happens is it can use these ease or whatever but for liquidity is there to interact with the equity protocol but from his L2 so it will surprise ease borrow ESL USD do something with Israel usds and essentially in the background this will just manage trolls on the layer one batch the transactions from everybody using online too and and replicate them on the layer one so at the end of the day the interacting with the L1 protocol but from a source on the N2 so there are some challenges as to how you accomplish this bridge the main one is a batching logic essentially for no most of the Integrations they operate two big fat trolls so you know in because of course they cannot replicate each user Trove of the guy that put like borrow five dollar on the end he's not gonna have a trove on Main net obviously um but so essentially the way they go is they offer you two options in terms of tropes they have like a more Degen Trove and a safer Trove you know maybe one that is at 250 and another 300 and so when you get into the app you can choose which one you want so essentially the cost of this implementation is a bit less flexibility on the user side because no you cannot pick exactly the amount you want to borrow you just like you have two options whether you either you like them and you harness them or you don't but you know it's still a massive improvement from you can't do anything from an attitude to know you can interact with Native protocol it's better than nothing yeah sure um I think one of the key issues that we faced with raft with with building like a cross chain strategy is just liquidity if you don't have liquidity for the collateral Types on other chains then it's very difficult to perform liquidations there and you're going to be putting the entire protocol at risk you have to impose mint caps you have to impose all sorts of caps on the protocol level and both of the user level to make sure that everything works properly and it actually that adds to the whole censorship resistant thing because because you will have to have a centralized control and of those mid caps yourself and then perhaps you know raise them later in the future if the liquidity drops on that chain because adoption dries up then that you run into a whole sort of a different issue because then there's not enough liquidity natively to liquidate all of the positions but I think it all depends on what sort of collateral types you have if you have eth obviously there's more liquidity there on l2s as well so it should be should be fine but I think like if you want to take liquid sticking tokens for example as collateral it's going to be more challenging I mean I do think there should be mid caps everywhere um like I remember even like when we were Max Payne everything was falling uh there was like that Chinese billionaire that had a vault I think you make it out everybody was watching it because see that guy got liquidated I mean it was Armageddon eth was gonna really crash everyone's gonna get liquidated so maybe we should we should do some risk management there I mean not everybody's going to be happy with it because if you really want everything to be like permissionless there's no uh kind of like a room for for this kind of risk management but if we want to make the broader space safer from these black swans we might need some main caps in ethereum yeah I mean it reminds me of a chat I was having this morning a bit sidetracked but also very on track you'll see I'm Bianca uh we're talking about circuit breakers so I don't know if you guys are familiar with that but it's like an EIP that came out uh still in discussion stage but the idea is to have those kind of uh secret because as they call them so it's essentially they will pose a protocol or a bridge or something if it sees more like than let's say 20 of its total TV and outflow over a short amount of time and I was telling him I'm very opposed to that like at the philosophical level I am disturbed by this very idea and it took a while but he finally understood because essentially my whole point was like yes I want more user safety don't get me wrong I don't like seeing users getting wrecked and we agree on that but the problem is with those devices is you increase user safety at the expense of recreating a center point of control because okay for instance his secret breaker that he was describing to me was algorithmet triggered So based on an algorithm just monitoring data and if there is more than this threshold protocol is top but then they were the one deciding when the protocol goes back online so then I was like okay so now I can bribe you to launch back the protocol when I want you to launch it back so that I make money on my long or short or whatever but you do see that all those devices they add a central point of control and we can then know for more experience in the real world look at all the systems you have in the real world where you have a central point of control you give him enough time you end up with a corrupted central point of control especially if the system is managing a lot of value yeah this is interesting I just had a conversation with uh some people here at the stable Summit about different uh solutions that notify you in advance of a hack and I'm like that's great but uh once that was actually that we get notification one minute in advance then there's no way to shutting it down so that would basically be of not much use to the protocols that are not that centralized so I think that's you know partly it ties in with your with your thoughts yeah it's kind of like the sorry just to wrap on this clash between two way of building essentially one way that is we won't build any kind of showstoppers or circuit breakers or whatsoever but we really modalize heavily the product on agent pay modeling and a lot of very fancy stuff to essentially map how people would behave map the protocol against various Market situations and so on and be confident enough that you can launch this without the ability to change the code and it will be fine and then the other screen of thoughts is again experience something and will adapt to the Market adjust but essentially the problem or the challenge here is that you need to introduce someone some entity or whatsoever able to decide and Implement those changes so usually your governance and as I was saying earlier then this governance becomes whether you like it or not an attack vector and I think uh on the topic of censorship resistance something that's very important is obfuscating as much Blacklist risk as possible so instead of just like you know having a bunch of ufcc backing you at frax most of the uscc is being put to work in curvy Amos I like to say you know fraxism backed by usdc it's backed by D5 it's backed by these Amos and so and let's Circle Blacklist curve and destroys all of defy then that's fine so we talked so far a lot about the technical side let's shift a bit gears and think more in a philosophical way let's say tomorrow we overcome all these challenges the technical challenges and we achieve a truly censorship resistant currency do you think the regulations uh would step in do you think maybe they would restrict in some way the use of such a currency and I'm not talking again I'm not talking here on the technical side I'm more talking about possible let's say penalties like if you interact with currency X then you're gonna get sanctioned yeah I mean they can try at the technical level there is nothing they can do so then they are free to declare I don't know a terrorist anyone using a censorship uh currency that they deem to censorship resilient uh but even that will not deter usage I think a good example of that is Monero you know so Monero is um if you own it or like a lot of exchange consider you at risk if you if you have interacted with Monero or even tornado cash like you're flagged by default by any kind of automated on-chain monitoring Services if you have an interaction with tornado cash so uh but you know it doesn't prevent people from using to another cache because when they need privacy the tornado cache provide that and they just they keep it in their mind you know like okay this address that I'm gonna use for off-ramping obviously I'm not gonna fund it through tornado cash or I'll be mindful of whatever I do but like if I'm just looking to transfer assets between wallets that are interacting purely on chain and cash is fine I don't care whether those service won't serve me yeah maybe uh you know there's only so much the law enforcement can do here um I think if we have we have seen many instances of um ipfs based front ends I think that's a very important thing um and if he obviously because of the nature of ethereum and and other blockchains if you deploy a dab it's going to be there forever so I think like if we actually manage to get to that point where we have an oracle-less stable coin that maintains a stable Peg and somehow the liquidity issue is also solved so we managed to we managed to cross all these boundaries that we have which is I think like light years away from that at that point um this discussion will become a little more relevant but I think we've seen that um the more on the market side people actually do seem to care quite a lot quite a lot about what is banned and what is not and I think the tornado cash usually has dropped significantly uh since it's been declared um whatever it was declared at the time but uh I think um yeah so people people try to comply but obviously there will be a segment of the population that just don't don't care yeah and it comes down to at the end of the day money is a social technology we all use it we all need it um and so if like you know you could have the most immutable currency on the face of the Earth but ofac sanctions it then you know I'm not touching it I'm not sure about you guys but I think I think it depends on how geopolitics goes right like today the US has this power to like say what happens right you're up to a lesser extent also has um perhaps that changes right because um you have these different systems that are built separate from each other like China doesn't use so much of the payment system other us they use union pay they have their own thing tencent whatever so perhaps the global South makes their own payment system that's outside of uh the purview of the us and then you can kind of choose your regulatory you know jurisdiction in a place that is more favorable of you and I think where if we are actually creating something that's good for users and protects people which is the most important part more more so than being associated assistant we have a duty to protect people from losing their funds otherwise why are we making this right and so if we're doing that there was going to be a government that says you know what that's a good idea and I think if if we have that then we can work with people to to make the world what we want it to be if I can jump still on the philosophical level but because it's a bit underserved I would say in Awareness um so a topic we haven't we talked a little bit about the code immutability because it's one of the way to achieve this censorship resistance uh but there are also benefits that comes with it that I think are also part of at least for me what excites me with D5 and what Drew me in and you know it's literally that the the rules of the protocol cannot change so you are you it's it's a bit of this um transparent honest contract that cannot wreck you you know so imagine you go to a bank and you know you borrow under certain terms and like the contract they give you is literally there is nothing they can do to change it so if they told you you're paying two percent interest rate you know for a fact you're paying two percent interest rate and they cannot raise it yeah it's like you can't rug the people but the world can rug you because while you might not change the world does change and so let's say I mean on a low level if something happens to chain link hotel or whatever on a high level what if ethereum dies what let's I know we're at an ethereum conference but what if that's not the future right like they're what it's an extreme example but it's supposed to uh exemplify the fact that you cannot you cannot plan for everything and so uh yeah I I I think it's very important to be very honest and forthcoming about the risks and it's impossible to say that because you cannot change users are safe that's not I don't think that's uh that's not the point I'm making I'm making the point that you can provide additional guarantees to your users by having your code being immutable because you remove an incomprehensible layer of risk that you have as soon as you're being mutable on a technical level but also at a philosophical level you provide a level of guarantees these to your users that is unprecedented either in D5 apart by other imitable protocol but also especially in traditional banking that is known to have terms that can be quite fluctuating and hard to navigate that's all and I hope we're talking on like um philosophical terms about immutability here because we still have the Oracle sources of other problems but if we actually can do the immutable where we don't have to rely on any party at all then yes I agree with that yeah because anything could change I mean ethereum for not too long ago sure yeah things can change yeah yeah on a higher level like obviously we tie all of our projects to the ethereum blockchain and once that breaks then we're done I love ethereum please so don't tell vitalik this as long as you're in a dollar packed world you're always going to be tied to the real world somehow unless like the FED starts mincing cryptographically on chain which I don't see happening anytime soon and so like with taking that into account um yeah I think on a philosophical level what would be a really big problem for all of us is if the US raise interest rates to like 20 percent still on the hypothetical side like assuming tomorrow we have this magical truly censorship resistant currency and it gets widespread adoption what risk do you see with this potential wide spread adoption and how we can address those risks I don't like using risk for that I would call this the price of Freedom you know literally because like what are the risks people are going to be like oh yeah you will have uh I don't know terrorism or people that people declare that's terrorists by the United States using that to transfer assets between one country to another or you might have other use case that you disapprove of or Lowe's is saying that are not legal but at the end of the day you know we know the other side of that Spectrum again the other side of that spectrum is what is give us control over the system because we want to catch the pedophiles and the terrorists and we promise you it's only going to be for the pedophiles and the terrorists and then what happens in every single situation confirmed by like 300 years of human history oh surprisingly we're using a pedophile law to go after I don't know a guy that is just you know a bit too much on the left or on the right end of the spectrum or oh no we have eco-terrorism because you know we want to use the terrorized law to to silence and since another part of the population so the thing is those type of control systems they will always end up being abused and it's not like trust me bro on this is look around you like any kind of control system you see in the real world is systematically abused so uh the whole vision is kind of like let's try to build system with all those control system without those censorship mediums so that at least we have this additional guarantee I'm not saying it's the only way but I'm using in my book that's the most credible Way by virtue of seeing every single control system ever built systematically abused given enough time I think just in general like if you see stable coins and and people trying to ban it it's I think we're way ahead of our time here because you can actually track uh every sort of transaction way better than you can do in traditional systems for example cash so I don't think there's any any sort of um reason if the government is thinking uh rationally which they might not but uh in most of the cases like government yeah yeah I think like uh it wouldn't be uh wouldn't be uh that big of an issue I I totally agree with token right here uh I think that the world in general I think we've seen governments in each side Freedom versus autocracy autocracy is always on the side of safety freedom is always on the side of of choice I I have to say it's Freedom wins because I'm not going to trust somebody to tell me what's supposed to make me safe I mean read anything by George Orwell right back to actually what we have nowadays what is each of your projects like each of you come kind of represent the project here what is each of your projects doing in terms of censorship resistance we saw that it's not we're not there yet we don't have like this perfect solution but what are your projects doing in terms of getting closer to that ideal scenario I guess you can sit tight mystery but uh on our side is Jokes Aside Jokes Aside I'll let you talk after I promise um uh for us we're in a lot of chains there's no stable coin that you can mint on as many chains as we're on there's no doubt that's available on all these chains and that comes with a huge problem and that's automating the protocol fully uh and because you have to trust message transfers I mean we're in a lot of I'll tell ones where the the bridges are not as trustworthy as like the l2s so how do you get the like messages across and so right now we are deploying an open source for you to use for anybody module unsafe where any project that wants to build cross chain is going to be able to connect their deployments across the different chains to allow for uh some sort of automation if they want to connect that to a Dao they can but it doesn't have to be and I think tooling like that's going to be very important we particularly are trusting chain link just because we already trusted with like you know our collateral so there's not additional assumptions there uh we'd like the whole ccip and I think that's going be very important for our protocol to strive to be more censorship persistent obviously there's no such thing as completely persistent I think unit swap uh commissioned a very nice report about cross-chain communication and they they made a nice comparison of all the bridges so um that's something that we're also checking out to see if we can we can do some sort of cross-chain communication that would be probably be limited to governance as opposed to uh actually bridging assets of value I think that's a little bit further further off for us but um what we're doing at raft I think we're believing in like a progressive decentralization so we have launched just only a month ago um we got respectable 60 million TV on that in that time frame but what what we're trying to do here is is um start off with a somewhat more centralized multi-sig to take control of the of the key decisions that aren't obviously not limited to to the key protocol working so we don't have a pause function and things like that but what we're trying to do is that hand over those important things to the Dow at a later point and then put limits on those decisions about who can make those decisions what the time limit will be whether there will be sort of some sort of a time lock and everything else and then once that sort of develops from there um then then we can see how we can we can develop a cross chain strategy of our own but I think the important thing here is that we're dealing with collateral types that are very new so it's not uh it's not if it's not it's not usdc it's all sorts of other things and we need to keep a closer eye and we need to keep a little bit more control over those things at least for now until those decisions can be headed over to a Dao at a later time yeah exactly yeah that's a joke I've sprinkled a hints at frax what we're doing to go more towards decentralization for example with fraxka of you know bringing ultimate power to token holders uh how Amos and backing Works where frax is backed by defy and another thing with frax V3 coming out is lessening the Reliance on usdc as a reference Peg and collateral in favor of a sovereign true USD Peg do you guys let your devs sleep I just I don't know I feel like frax is always coming out with something yeah no they're truly the Seal Team Six of crypto I've never seen them at a conference and I really think D5 Dave has some chain to their debt it's not me yeah Sam's just always in the chat like almost always an accessible person in the telegram chat which is important like keeping in touch with your community always being there and that's your like pulse and I feel bad please tell us actually seem like you missed the news I'm gonna break it to you yes so he's right we do like cheating on us just watching the supply grow and we can change the code it's really nice but when we do that we also like think about how can we build better and out of that reflection came an idea for v2 that Robert presented yesterday I guess I can give you like quick pointers but it's a completely different model from V1 that will coexist with V1 and the I guess the gist of it is it's a reserve back stable coin so that's why it's a widely different model and the other bigger novelty would be that it offers solutions for people looking to leverage ESO lsds in a in a pretty cost effective way but also with interesting guarantees regarding the pressing power so uh yeah I feel like you're watching everyone Fork you guys and you're like man this LST stuff is too much fun like we gotta and we gotta get into it yeah it's been pretty popular it's been pretty popular right again bro watch his V2 talk because you missed the keyboard Reserve backed I don't think any of the forks are Reserve pay backed Equity by definition is also not reserved I think it's a good move but I think people definitely like lsts yeah yeah that's a big ass I I hate that they changed the name yeah unless this was way better no for me it said yeah yeah of course we take all lsds we take them with some acid and this is how D5 goes if you're not happy about it you can go back to top five Web Two okay going back to Benjamin's point about being available on different chains do you think it's possible to have such a truly censorship resistant currency on many chains and if so how how to achieve that many chain compatibility I think it's kind of related to the appointment earlier about um there's always trade-offs right if if you want something you lose something else like I think one major thing that we want by being on all these chains is that we are completely Diversified in terms of our counterparty we have 14 000 people landing on mine the next best is make it out at 2700. and so I think that's something that's good I think that's something that helps us obviously it doesn't overcome everything maybe that we exchange for but definitely with new infrastructure like ccip from chain link I think we get closer to something that is censorship more censorship persistent and everybody trusts chain link I mean chain link has been live for a while but I hope that as crypto continues we have more interoperability Not Just Between the l2s but maybe different l1s maybe the narrative is not dead who knows but from our point of view we want to be able to allow users to choose what chain they're on what assets are borrowing against um and yeah more infrastructure I guess is my answer I hope to get more of that and I think as important as the stablecoin is the chain itself like you have BNB chain which is one of the most widely used chains if your stable coins on there you know BNB has a chain is much more centralized and itself is an attack Factor so there's ways to think about it as well yeah but like because the thing is like we won't be a b chain two and it's like a constant like uh debate in the Dao but at the same time those people need yeah you know that's when they use you know what I mean yeah that's the thing and that's like you know we talk about trade-offs that's one of the trade-offs yeah like and if we're really trying to service people they have a lot of users right I mean polygon too polygon I think is the most users right I mean there's Bots everywhere yeah it's hard to tell but in in general I mean this idea of like uh having a shop everywhere so everybody can access this kind of stable because it's important if you're able to isolate as you mentioned the risk yeah but but you can you can have a different sort of a stable coin to cater to different audiences so you can have different collateral Types on different chains I think like the needs of a BNB user is probably uh way different to a needs of somebody who's an ethereum maintenance that wants to admit like a million dollars worth of stable coins so you can cater the product to all these like different users as well yeah you can have front-end me on this one David because I was about to suggest uh as the most realistic way I would see a stable coin on several chains achieving some highest form of censorship resistance actually goes back to sorts of many stable coins not just one so essentially maybe a kind of factory of protocol that ships a stable coin specific to each chain and then they are designed to interact with one another but they're segregated you know so you have the East protocol outputting the East table you have the r protocol are putting the apps table and you have mechanism to make it as easy as possible for a guy that has a stable on Main net to go to abstain on arbiterm but you keep the basket separated this this is what we're doing exactly so we're considering deploying on the different chains but those stable coins will be called something else and it will be a completely separate system by itself there would be some sort of value transfer for incentives and everything else but aside from that the stable coin would live on its own chain on all separate chains um so I think like we're just going towards like a multi-chain feature here as opposed to a cross chain one which seems a little bit of a safer route but I would say that that's kind of what we have today I mean if if you're able like I said to have the circling Supply be similar to the debt on each chain they're essentially separate deployments right and then you're able to to some extent limit the uh the exposure that each change has to each other and and it's very hard to just have a stable coin on one chain for many reasons one because the price uh is not Arbitrage as well right you're having to bootstrap again every time and we're on many chains and we've seen many stable coins come up and down and outside of ethereum they've all failed I mean I can't name a single stable coin outside of ethereum that's only Assad or maybe paradominantly outside that's been able to get on Ave right that's been able to last more than a year um like well well over without any like kind of drama or people releasing millions of dollars right and that comes back to the fact that there is a huge Network effect of having the same stable coin because you can get concessions right you go to a new chain you're like oh am I you know like oh yeah I agree it's it's a conscious design choice you know like which one is better do you want to share the same liquidity pool easier bootstrapping or do you want to have separate stable coins that maintain their you know separate collateral liquidation mechanism everything else on a separate chains or do you want to somehow tie all of them together and then share one liquidity pool which is way better from their work effects and it's way easier to bootstrap on a different chain if you're using the same thing yeah but please come we need more people uh outside of ethereum I mean we have frags they're great uh we work a lot on I forgot you guys are also outside but you're you're an ethereum mainly a stable coin do you mint outside of ethereum no it's not ethereum it's all ethereum right we're at the end of the time unfortunately but I would like to open the floor for any questions from the audience and they already see a couple of hands yeah thanks I actually have even two questions but since there are too many I'll just ask one the more provocative one uh so yeah we're talking about censorship resistance right and I believe guys you know your users but what's your take on the actual value proposition for the users in the censorship resistance of your products what I say is that definitely it's a good thing right but do you think that's the main value proposition of what you do or users come for some other features like say yield or anything else like how really important is this really important thing for the actual users I think you're what you're trying to describe is what is the monetary premium of a sable coin why are people using a sabercoin because they want to use it for its inherent usefulness so like right now like the stable coin with the highest monetary premium is tether people aren't expecting any yield from and people are just using it to transact I think all what all of us are trying to do is increase the monetary premium of all our stable coins now for each package stable coin and flaxseed you can actually see it being measured with all the frax heat that is in staked Nest track seethers in the curve pool it's just people just using it for its inherent usefulness I think it's you have to do like a multi-factor analysis of like what is important to the user and you can like rank all of these things like Capital efficiency custom minting and then um censorship resistance on like a scale and then you'll see like I think in the ethereum community in general we probably overestimate the importance of censorship resistance based on how much people want it if we see um the market cap of of of die you know that's not that censorship resistant at all you can see like there's all sorts of regulatory issues there the Dao is holding government bonds you know what can go wrong um but um so you see the market cap is way higher so that's something that people people don't seem to care about that much although we're all trying to push agenda here like our own um own stable coin please yes not Financial advice yeah maybe just to build on that um it's also something that happens is uh systems that are able to achieve a high censorship resistance it's kind of a consequence of other choices that tend to make for a pretty sturdy protocol so sometimes it's really hard to determine if users were just looking you know for censorship resistance or they just wanted to essentially minimize the technical risk but I would agree with what has been said in terms of I would like it to be a hundred percent of the decision factors of users but I can tell you from let's say stats from the Bryce Institute with my stats from chatting with hundreds of equity users I'd say it's probably about 30 Max putting together censorship resistance and overall resilience of the protocol like I put ease in there and I know I am unlikely to lose them or less likely than with other protocols but indeed other factors like the cost and the yield they're going to be able to put with the stable coin are big ones and what is cool is when all three converges so I think for us at Equity we have a fit with long-term tech savvy users looking to leverage their ease because all of three kind of converge together it's a resilient protocol you showing for the long term your borrowing cost will be a fraction of what you get anywhere else and you have decent yield opportunities that are quite synergetic with an Eastbourne mindset let's say on awsg so the whole package together makes it really nice for someone who is looking to leverage long-term investor and really doesn't want to lose them I know we don't have a lot of time but I I really like a question because I think a lot of people focus so much on the code on the tech and they forget that it's not just D is also Phi and so it needs to be a good deal for people I mean it people need to have some sort of like value getting from it and so if you structure it as a business as a product that you're making for what they want and people want yield people want to be able to huddle people want to be able to borrow at low rates that's what people want and that's what we offer uh obviously you have to check yourself this is not Financial advice oh yeah maybe let's take one more question yeah I think that's a great question as well for all the people using usdt on Tron um I don't know what they're doing man we're all wondering with you yeah okay but so my question is like when you launch a stable coin there are three on a high level there's three main ways to get liquidity for your stable coin which are bribing or renting or buying so especially for you guys that are about to launch a new coin or have just launched one are um which strategy did you opt for and how did you like approach this decision this is why with every single project that has a token out here do you think there is one weapon at War you will live off the table be like oh no I don't like swords for me it's like you know any tool you give me if you invent a new even more correlated way of raising liquidity I will look at it because it's another tool and it's a competitive runscape against every single other player I know we all like we're all gonna make it Vibes here and yeah yeah sure but when it comes to liquidity it's a limited Supply you know there is not Infinity of CRV the question is what is my share of CRV for the week essentially and you know your share you get at the expense of the author no but what I'm saying is every dollar you allocate towards buying liquidity isn't a dollar you don't allocate towards bribing for that I think I think bring up a good question because is it different for uh older like makerdale yeah it's very different from naked out that is for all of us that are nearest stable coins and definitely different for you that you came in doing a different time um and I think for us it's Partnerships man I mean cheetah would not be where it is today if it weren't for Partnerships we don't rely we don't have whales we didn't raise Capital nobody's pumping our TVO there's no like funds like the person that has the most TVO I think it's like one percent over TVO and so because of all that you really have to focus on going to each chain uh going to the decks and saying how can I provide value to you and how you can provide value to me and you kind of make these deals and these deals sometimes go well sometimes go wrong you kind of like package it with some of the writing but the voting incentive stuff is like bad I mean it's not that good because if you think about it like a lot of it doesn't last uh now there's some new things like Maverick and I will let you talk about America in the majority in the majority of it like uh nothing will last longer than the Partnerships I think this question is particularly relevant to us because we just launched a stable coin R and I think in our case we don't have a native token to incentivize with so it's very different um so we have a couple how you get ldo I don't know yeah I mean everything yeah I mean Partnerships is one part of it right but we also get um we also have to use our own money to incentivize and then if you're using your own protocols might be incentivized then you have to make very careful decisions decisions about what you want to incentivize and how much money you want to put and where and where do you get the most Buck for your money and I think this was part of our decision to partner with balancer because the bribes there you get more money for every dollar being spent it's like 1.4 1.4 1.6 something like that I think you can get two again right there's two we split the bribes in with 3.

2 oh let's do it all downloaded but yeah I guess my answer was like you need to use every tools anyway like an optimized strategy will be expressing partnership voting direct liquidity mining incentive whatever is relevant like you know just like out in the abouts in like random chains like you know okay what's it gonna be this guys how it's gonna happen uh and you know it's even like I get the question I think it was Kila one day it was like Hey price what is your liquidity efficiency on that chain like bro like you know this is like trading Secret at this point everybody like you do your own we know your cost of capital we know your customer I don't know I know you're a pretty high cost you're spending a lot in price dude yes yeah is a big spender as long as 20K a week I mean the two of them are always spending by a wide margin you guys are a bit better but still not there yet it's stingy well but we make more money than we spend on emissions right to a factor of two so you guys are way better though because you can incentivize the stability pool and by doing that it's basically you cost the cost in half so if you can get higher tvl just by doing single-sided incentives and you don't have to incentivize the other half which is like die in our case you don't want to yeah if you're too small you have most of your market cap in uh liquid disability pool right then it's very bad I remember there was a fork or let's call a try Fork I don't know if it's for a publicity on on polygon and it was like I think 94. yeah so it's like little trades could destroy the protocol and it eventually caused bad things to happen to that product sure all right I remember there was a third hand raised uh thanks guys this is this has been very entertaining and super informative um I told you I think uh um I have a kind of piggyback question off of that of um as like a lot more l2s are being developed um do you all have any strategies for for how you will be maintaining liquidity to avoid situations like you just described um it's yeah that's the question I'm so what was it was it uh uh so liquidity being the the scarce resource that it is lots of new l2s showing up bridging is a risk factor do you all have any strategies or ways you're approaching that oh make them pay for it but it's complicated because everybody wants to launch an L2 nobody really has an answer of of uh what that L2 actually is supposed to do other than it's a better scaling solution than the other one right and so um yeah it's complicated and from our point of view we're like the cross chains table so like we want people to be able to bridge in and out but like fragment to liquidity destroys your cost of capital because you have to have way more percentage of your market cap you know peace and so yeah I mean for us it's again Partnerships uh I said that a little crassly a couple seconds ago but yeah Partnerships yeah I guess yeah definitely agree Beady side of things and then especially for new chains that would be part of you know the discussions uh it's like okay what dexes do you have on your chain and and like can you connect us with uh we say are they willing to to um to support or things like that it's actually a big decision factor in even deciding whether or not this chain is interesting or not because you know it's really like step one of a new change strategies okay you got your token here no you need liquidity no you have liquidity you go for more advanced use case now you have liquidity and sustained volume you go for a training your co-worker and you can go for email even more intricate use case that's kind of like the four layers but liquidity is the only like the lifeblood of that you can't do any of the others unless you have sufficient liquidity I think protocols should definitely uh try to get co-incentives from all these other changes that they want to want to go on the part of the reason for that is not just to you know get free money but also because LPS and other chains expect higher yields so they're not happy with a six percent base here they want a 16 or 20 because it's a more risky chain it's a new chain there's a new decks nobody's been nobody audited it yet like you know all sorts of issues with it um and then it's not a good way to spend our money to incentivize liquidity there instead of liquid instead of incentivizing on ethereum because it's just going to cost you more so yeah I don't know why I don't know if you're just on ethereum and you're giving loans on ethereum there is less of a reason to have liquidity in all these chains like for us like we make loans on those chains so like we need there to be liquidity on those chains but if you're mainly on ethereum and you're not giving loans everywhere else it could present a threat because if you have too much liquidity on these l2s and there are liquidation events um there might not be enough liquidity on L1 to suffice for your liquidations now it depends on how you do if you have if you have a big liquid liquidity pool it's accounted for yeah yeah you want to keep it within certain ranges but you have to keep in mind also the it goes back to the social dimension of a stable right so why is LUSD on RB term and op because they brought it here and they asked for it essentially initially in the early Vision cross chain wasn't really considered but then you know there was appetite and demand and and it was quite yeah my LUSD is pretty yeah also yeah so yeah the questions become more how can we fulfill that domain without putting the protocol at risk and there are ways to to address that so so we went with it yeah yeah I'm just waiting for fraction to come out no but I'm just kidding but I think we're all waiting for facts chain but really it comes down to you know what's going on on the other ltus what in senses what are the Dex is you know what and all like what you're saying it's all about Partnerships and how you work together is to build the ecosystem and build liquidity I think it's uh yeah the social element is very important I think like if you want to what is the stable coin for do you want it to do what is it for mainly for leverage on the native chain is it mainly for is it for other people to just use and spend as payments on l2s and I think like if you want to diversify your user base a little bit and just Branch out um then it's definitely ready to incentivize at least a little bit of liquidity on other chains um especially on L2 so people can actually buy it those people who are priced down from actually minting it on the main chain and you don't have a minting mechanism on the other chain at least they can just buy some and then they can hold it I'm getting signs that we're at the end of the extra time so let's give a round of applause to our panelists and also a round of applause for you guys for spending the weekend with us here at stable Summit thank you everyone I I have some swag uh I was given by the marketing team these are like Plushies with like my in the back so um I'm gonna throw them and whoever catches them gets them so and we're also not done yet there's an after party on the roof I'm not strong so if you're in the back you're screwed oh I have a baggie I'll give it to you it's like uh like a grocery baggie it's just like so you can hold your bags and then you say that huh no piggy no piggy no it's bear Market we could only afford to The Bryson Benjamin show will continue so after party on the roof stairs or by the coffee stand it goes till 11. nice to meet you bro it was like