Onchain FX: Opportunities & Challenges for the next phase of DeFi Stablecoins - Panel

Thank you everyone for coming today. Very excited to discuss stable chain ecosystems and the uh growing world of uh onchain foreign exchange. Um if we could start by a quick one minute introduction kind of going down the line from closest to farthest around what you guys are doing at your current company, your your history and uh your company as well, that would be great.

Yeah, good good afternoon everyone. My name is Alex. I'm a co-founder at Ki. We're an onchain FX layer mainly focused on emerging markets. We run KX which is a centralized hybrid centralized decentralized exchange.

We work with nond dollar stable coins mainly in Latin America but expanding to other regions in order to create 24/7 FX markets and change the way money is moved primarily in the remittance type of OTC trading and import export uh category. So that's what we do.

Hi uh my name is uh Rafael. I'm CEO of uh Twin. Uh we do uh issue local stable coins in Latin America. Uh we do also integrations with uh local on and off fronts uh from fiat to crypto. Um and also uh we do uh carry carry trade protocols um to to [clears throat] be the infrastructure for any wallet exchange that wants to soft land in Latin America.

and uh make it on in a compliant way.

Hi everyone, my name is Johannes. I am the managing director of the Franken association. Uh Frankencoin is the largest Swiss Frank stable coin fully decentralized and um basically we are here bringing the Swiss Frank to the world because believe it's a superior store of value against the dollar. And actually have a little little gift for for someone of you. Uh it's in my bag and the idea advisor is going to bring it to me afterwards.

But uh stay tuned a bit a bit of insider knowledge about the Swiss Frank.

I'm working with Curve Finance. I'm doing BD there but I also have a technical background and I'm sitting here to represent the infrastructure side. We are Kov is one of the biggest stable coin decks and now we're going to we have a new swap with FX swap which is very suitable for non US stable coin and uh yeah we're going to explore this.

Great. Thank you guys very much. Uh my name is Jacob. I work at Gauntlet. Uh we curate over $2 billion in TVO for many of the institutional uh clients in the stable coin space and across DeFi.

Um we work very closely with a lot of stable coin partners with uh go to market and institutionally incentivizing users to adopt stable coins more. So really excited to to chat with you guys today. Um so at gauntlet we often see you know stable coin issuers and and operations and infrastructure players within the stable coin space um strive to not only grow you know their individual product but grow the stable coin ecosystem. Um how do we grow the pie and not just reshuffle people from one stable coin to the next but make the entire economy grow? Um I'm really curious given that we have kind of two different socioeconomic backgrounds here from Rafa and Yan.

Um if you guys could talk about kind of what were some of the top challenges that you guys are working through either specifically to your regions or in the general stable coin space as you try to bring in new you know users into your local region.

Sure. Um I I I believe that the Swiss Frank is maybe a bit of a special case here, right? And if if I think about stable coins, I I always think about two different use cases. one of them being transactions, you know, transactional um spending money, paying in stores, uh doing crossber payments. [snorts] And for that, I believe it's easier to think in one currency.

Uh right now the the whole world is basically in dollar stable corners is USD denominated, right? You have I think 99.8% of the volumes are dollar dollar denominated and that's all right for transactions. Um, and at the same time, you know, I'm I'm I'm from Switzerland. We we have a very good financial infrastructure.

Everyone has a has a bank account. Uh, you don't pay fees to pay and so it's it's very hard kind of to or I believe there's always very limited need also on on the the payments and transactional side for for that because it's very well covered. However, the second part and that's maybe might differentiate kind of what we do a bit to you know to everyone else here is a store of value right where um a stable coin is also used very often to hedge against local inflation to hedge against um you know the local banking system you've seen that in in in Lebanon for example where you had dollars on your bank account and I think even in in Argentina right the 2002 even if you had dollars, the dollars were just worthless because you couldn't get them out of the bank. So that's that's a huge huge secondary use case of stable coins and that's where the Swiss Frank is kind of vast disappear. So if if I you know think about um growth I I don't necessarily only think about the domestic market which is interesting because people are used it but about the role the Swiss Frank plays in traditional finance which is really really big already mainly with institutional players because it's not that easy to actually access the Swiss Frank and and we're bringing this same value on chain but it also brings the challenges right it's this uh I'm I'm uh kind of here traveling the world and and and telling everyone about this weird little nation in essentially Europe and why you should actually hold their currency uh and and and that is uh you know it's just a lot of work but a lot a lot of fun work um on the other side there is you know you ask about challenges and uh economically speaking doing is a phrase they were cozy because we have negative interest rates so the traditional model with issuing um a coin and and and then basically pocketing the risk-free interest rate just doesn't and and this in combination with the very strict regulatory environment you have in Switzerland basically um make it impossible as of now to do centralized ones and that kind of creates that perfect environment for for for decentralized stable coins because it's the only way you can really do it you know tapping into risk premiums uh you find in DeFi but also not having uh kind of the some of the regulatory challenges you might have with a with a centralized setup.

Yeah, very interesting. And Raf, I understand you come from, you know, more of an emerging market side of the coin. Um, how is that different for you? I'm sure the parameters are very similar, but the use cases and user stories are much different.

Yeah. Um, the use cases are, you know, could be analog or similar. Um, you have the the transactional side and the investment side. uh in Latin America for example I would say more than 80% of the countries they think on their own own currency uh so they save on that currency and the products to to give those uh populations uh yield are not uh widespread so there's an opportunity there also transactional costs are are high here uh there's not an homogeneous uh infrastructure so that's an opportunity to do uh I would say the challenges Obviously this is an eterogeneous uh landscape. So regulatory clarity is is needed.

Uh it's also heterogeneous and um I would say the challenge is more on the side of distribution than on product. Definitely. Um yeah.

Awesome. Well, it's a great segue into talking with Martin and Alex. you know, I'm sure you guys have to make your own kind of due diligence and make your own business decisions around which stable coin markets you do on board and support. Um, given that you guys are more of the operations and rails of uh payments and stable coin economy and DeFi, bridging, you know, the the users that uh Johan and uh um sorry, uh Rafa are dealing with on a day-to-day basis. Um can you guys talk about what the critical components are of, you know, listing a new stable coin asset, supporting a new market on something like curve might be and then we can move over to Alex.

Sure. I mean tech technically listing a type of asset is pretty easy but um you know like you said it's less of a product and more of a distribution and so when we look at just like where FX markets are you know they're highly competitive especially in Latin America I think spreads are tightening you know every week and it's really about how we can get the pre-existing you know user base because these FX markets have really been running for years right like this this whole um you know the the it's about 7 trillion daily volume in in the FX sector and you know if we want to go tackle and and really steal the flows of the main user bases like these remittance companies these import export companies these banking institutions we need to build products that ultimately are better than what's being done right now and the good news is what's happening on the back end is way better we're getting better on pricing we just need to I think you know there's probably about a 30% % left to be done on both the pricing end and on the product end. And I still think there's lots of users who are having trouble linking wallets, right? These are more like uh, you know, standard style remittance companies or OTC, you know, uh, market makers, these local arbitrage market makers. We have a hard time enough bringing them onto our application and trading that way.

They still like to trade over OTC chats. And I think like the amount of money that's moved in the world on WhatsApp is astonishing, right? And like at the end of the day, we again the tech is better. What's happening on the back end is better, but we're still competing against the local, you know, person who's sending a remittance to somewhere in Buenosides. And they walk into that local, right, the local Western Union because they're friends with the person there and they've been sending money for the past 10 years and they know it's going to arrive.

So there's still different trust components and product components that we really need to tackle but I think the the the migration has already started and our thesis is that you know over the next 5 to 10 years um these markets will essentially come on chain. Yeah, could just play the role of the infrastructure provider here because we are we are not we not choosing assets basically we are choosing by asset issuers as the best venue for liquidity and curve did find product market fit mainly in the stable coin uh real US stable US dollar stable coins and we are still working on make them better for we call it FX up so new version basically which would be very suitable for lower pair most of the there's some volatility or I say currency who are like non US dollar currency who are quite volatile but not as volatile as crypto basically. So uh we try to find a good solution for this. uh we we we did still see until now some kind of hyper polarization but I think we are the point is going to change there's more more local currency issued and all all of them some of them need uh liquidity on chain and so we try to to build in this direction because there's a lot of volume and amm on volume and trading so if we can bring like all like 10% whatever 5% to onchain this is real yeah it's real flow it's a lot of flow basically. So yeah.

Yeah, very interesting. I know that Curve is a industry leader in you know stable coin swap. So I'm very keen to see how as more stable coins come online and there's more effects through Curve there might be more features uh to support that sort of on boarding. Um now moving on to kind of specifically offchain onchain FX and emerging markets. Um you know as you you guys already started to mention like here in Argentina there's of course a lots of uh blockers to maintaining the right amount of wealth.

you know, inflation is very high or are fluctuating very heavily. Um, it's, you know, we see a lot of locals, including like my family who lives here, you know, constantly having to think about their relationship to the local dollar versus, for example, the US currency. Um, Alex, I'm going to go back to you. You start to mention um, things like remittances. Um, really curious given your experience, where are you seeing some of like the most product market fit?

Um, and how are you guys kind of trying to fuel those drivers for growth? Yeah, the the the onchain FX swap is becoming very popular and I think um it's happening on chain with these local non-dollar stable coins and I think the argument for non-dollar stable coins gets oversimplified oftent times because people just look at like the store of value. um they're not really focused on the transactional piece, but what it allows essentially us and others to do is to tokenize the payment float of these of these flows so users can get these funds instantly, which if you look at Argentina and and for those of you who are familiar with like the blue chip swap and getting money out of the country for so many years, it was such a hassle. You know, in Colombia, it's really tough to get money into the country. Um in Peru, it's really hard to get money out.

So these markets are making that process instant. Uh but sometimes there is a premium to to operate that and you know it depends on the who's the client and who's the user. But I think the last phase now because we've already solved for the the mechanics and the value prop of the speed and the settlement. It's just the last phase is dialing the pricing in and then getting in really the users who are driving the majority of the volume. And you know, the good news is we're already starting to see some of these remittance companies, these more kind of traditional banks who are you either moving money through the US via a kind of coming on chain.

Um, and there's a lot of these like, you know, big players now who are doing this, you know, through stable coins. Um, but, you know, I think we're still, you know, right at the right at the finish line for for, you know, seeing more massive adoption.

Awesome. Thanks. I'm going to go over to Johan. Um given that you guys are pegging to a stronger stable coin and more developed, you know, the Swiss Frank, um can you guys talk about what sort of globalization or kind of you're seeing more interest or more traction with kind of your globalization efforts relating to your currency? I mean um I would say the the biggest use case right now for for Francoin is actually we launched um a month ago about um a a cooperation with Gnosis where you know Gnosis pay is is having tremendous growth uh in Latin America.

I think they're pretty strong in Brazil. Obviously, they know they're coming from Europe originally. And what we enabled is kind of the native integration into into that where you you hold your your Swiss Franks on on your non-custodial account on seal, you earn a yield on it, and then you spend in your local currency with Kosis Pay. And that had an impact um on our basically the volume spiked and and they they are super high. like money pouring basically into Konosis pay for that specific use case.

Um it's it's still early so it's it's very hard to tell. I don't really have kind of you know I said it's been launched two months ago. I think Martin is actually one of the users

user. [laughter]

What's what's your experience so far?

Uh it's uh nice. Yeah, it's really it works very well basically. Um so it's it's still very early but like we just see that uptick and and um I believe that is going to continue and and and I mean this is just you know put in context with what we've what what I've seen the last couple of days here uh as well in in Chile last week with a little treat now in in one where just there's this kind of this product market fit you could almost say for stance in general but now there's so many projects like seal like um uh you know what a announced yesterday with with the with the Y a right um that are building for the users and also for the kind of the the less technical users um to actually reap the benefits of of what stable coins bring. So I'm very bullish on stable coins even though you know market market the crypto market right now is is not the best shape I would argue but uh um there's there's just so much tremendous growth and and and and uh I'm you know curious to see can't can't really say much more right now about that. I'm not sure what what how you you observe that in you know from a more Latin American perspective guys.

Yeah. Um so USC SEO adoption is is everywhere. Uh it is missing the local side of that right and at least that's what I see. Then the question becomes like what's the use of that? Is it transactional or is it as a store of value?

It is both. Um if you see like for example if you normalize to to FX rates uh real rates in Latin America are you know uh very attractive. Uh uh so strategies like uh cover carry trades are you know a no-brainer. That's for on the investment side. On the transactional side, the fees that the merchants pay are, you know, are tough, you know.

So, why are not more people picking up on that?

If basically, you know, you have very low fees.

They are they are um you're going to you're starting to get traction on USD Sable payment uh as you might see around the dev connect um but it's still missing the the local adoption. I don't think there's uh there's enough ley effect uh up to the moment up to the moment for local stable econom but uh we're going to get there eventually.

Yeah, I'd like to if I may too like [clears throat] there's you know 99.9% of the money moved in these local markets are still in the local currency. And so even though you know holding these local currencies or these local stable coins will never be what it is to hold USDT or you know a f like a a Swiss right stable coin or a European stable coin. um you know 99% of the economy is still based in these local local fiat right and 99% of the population still holds 99% of their wealth in this local money and the digital version of that is still better right and so like my thesis is that we're not expecting the same user adoption as like holding these these like USDT or USDC or others that we've seen in the past but it's still going to happen and that we we don't have in in Colombia for instance We have things like PSSE and they just launched this new API system called Brebe which is which works but uh you know a lot of these like very kind of outdated systems still exist. It's very very slow to move money.

Um there's local taxes to do so. It's really hard opening up bank accounts. We've seen tons of verticalization across like the traditional financial sector. So big banks are buying fintex apps and now those fintech apps are charging for their services. So, we expect to see a lot of the local clearant, the bulk transfer clearance settlement systems come on chain.

We think institutions are going to be the biggest adopters at first. You know, we're already seeing it and uh and that's kind of like our general thesis on on these local these local stable coins, but yeah, I think like the big picture is that the at first they're going to be predominantly transactionalbased, but and then we're going to really see TVL start to grow.

Yeah, it's it's it's probably both, right? uh the history of uh Latin America is you have capital controls everywhere all the time uh unexpectedly. So um you know that goes hand with kind of hand inh hand with uh with hedging and effects and so on. Um definitely uh there's a d-risk uh lading path that we have to have to walk uh from the most uh risk tolerance risk tolerant actors up to you know the more regulated and so on but it's going to get there eventually. And this is uh another good segue is uh in terms of when we're thinking about kind of the contention that there always is between product and growth, right?

You guys are all kind of striving to increase the activity of stables and their ecosystems both globally and locally and the product team is always trying to figure out right what's the right feature for us to unlock that next channel of growth and uh you know for example curve has the the UX of Curve the experience of Curve has really withheld withheld multiple different you know es and flows of DeFi. Um, I'm curious maybe starting with Martin and then going down the line, have there been any surprises in terms of, you know, what product features or what elements of your protocol have really like found uh, you know, a home with stable coin exchanges and and onchain effects with the global economy? Can I get a little bit bigger?

Um, I'm not clear if I get the question, but uh, you mean the UX?

Yeah. Any whether it's the UX or features within the Curve platform, um, are there any things that have really that you've seen a lot of increases in up uptake of usage? Yeah, I think there's of course stable cocon like the major usage on on our platform basically and that's yeah our like bread and butter basically but what we see is that um now as we have like a better version of for unstable pairs we hope that we get more fractional unstable pairs we have unstable pairs but basically the technology we use it's the same on on curve it's the same as YB the new project of our founder uses basically so it's like he uses crypto swap or FX swap pools and hopefully we can penetrate more of the market uh of the non uh non-stable coin market basically because I see I had a talk earlier uh yeah we we still on the camp you should not like you as a liquidity provider you should not have to make your own market basically you have shall unify your liquidity and I think yeah that's the better vision in this because this is just less friction basically and we're still in this camp and we executing on this one basically

and stable coin we we do we talk to a lot of stable coin issuers currently because we want to do pilots with our new technology and see how it performs and uh somehow it's just a different crowd you know what I see because we are crypto native onchain and now if we start talking to stable coin issuers it's like yeah they're somehow slow I would say for me it's like a little bit yeah

we're not slow

yeah you're not but [laughter] Okay. Yeah, he's he's very fast. Agree. But they also slow because regulation is uh regulatory issues and yeah, you know, they're like all the players now entering this onchain world and so they they need to to learn things and uh I mean I mean Martin's comment is is a very important one for us, right? It's one of the biggest challenges we have is and and this is not not really been that common because it's just everything is used denominated.

So you don't have that problem. But if you you know uh once you start having stuff like Swiss Frank dollars then slippage and spreads become a massive issue because if you know Bitcoin dollar you don't you don't care if there's a 1%

slippage if you have you know Swiss Frank dollars with 3% yield per year

you mind you you mind a lot and and that's why we're we're super keen and we we've launched a small pilot

not long ago. Yeah, we have a pool on a week a week ago, right? And um and hoping to scale it and actually solve one of of our biggest big problems we have uh with with the the new new ethics swap and and and just kind of what did your engineer say? 100x improvement in in liquidity with the same LP pool something like that. Theoretically 100x

n no no it's [laughter] 10 10x that's good enough for

good enough. Yeah, it's it's it's still a massive improvement, right?

Yeah. But I think the biggest surprise what I what I see regulatory what's interesting what I did discover in talking to stable issues is basically in Europe you're not allowed so in European bank is not allowed having a stable corner is not mika compliant on the balance sheet so what they do they use AMM as a legal arbitrage basically so they set up special purpose vehicles so all liquidity in the AMM itself and then they feed the liquidity in the pool they can basically trade over this pool and then yeah they can basically they don't have to hold the token on the balance sheet and this is one of the as if you're coming from the tech technical background we think okay yeah but you want to have like basically people using your product not as like arbitrage you they they force they so the legal benefit of it is higher than the swap basically but I think at the end it doesn't matter it's just having people using uh onchain infrastructure is good for everyone and seeing these uh products evolve perhaps like yeah wherever is doing it basically

I can say uh working alongside curve for a long time and also working with D5 partners institutions it's a very different onboarding cycle as you guys have mentioned so yeah lots of lots of different barriers to entry and blockers if we can just move down the line to Rafa and Alex yeah can you guys share any sort of product features or designs or things that are really exciting to you guys about the current space that have been leading to you know more growth in your in your ecosystem I mean two things we're working on is like you [clears throat] know we launched you know mobile apps where essentially we've embedded like non-custodial wallets and account abstraction so users who are just normally used to you know opening fintech apps here in LAM are are now doing that but just on the back end it's stable coins and non-dollar stable coins and they really don't know that that's what's powering this FX swap and this like payins and payout infrastructure. ructure. So we're really excited about that. And then we're also, you know, launching uh probably early next year more of a open on chain type of trading environment where we're essentially, you know, this rebalancing mechanism which is centralized we're doing but we're not we're essentially market making in a way like our own deck. So our users don't have to take any type of central counterparty risk.

We you know assume all of that FX risk and that upkeep. um but we just do it internally and so um and and and essentially just allows users to link their wallets and trade as if they were trading on any type of of deck. So, you know, two I think like you know when we think about these type of products we really think about who's you know using FX markets, who's using non-doll stable coins at scale and let's go get those guys because if we can do that then we're going to build a pretty sweet company and a pretty you know help contribute to a much bigger sector.

Yeah. in our case um on the product side of things um working also in uh building FX markets um there's there's a need for a variety of uh participants there uh not only retail but also businesses and obviously OTC desks and and so on so uh current FX markets are uh liquid but are you know few players really move them uh So we need to get them on chain just to automize a little bit more uh the demand. Uh that's one thing. The other one is um on the transaction side um there's a lot to be done in terms of privacy of transactions. Um you know if you if we want to get institutional adoption and volume uh we need to tackle that definitely.

Um but also again working uh on the distribution side because there's you know the distriution the distribution has to be productled uh in case of Latin America uh transaction cost and uh effect volatility and so on. Uh that's a feature for SEO adoption and uh for effects uh adoption too right uh amms and so on.

Yes. Yeah. So, what I'm hearing is there's, you know, different aspects of the user experience and the product suite that really allow users to onboard quickly and then, you know, use their stable coins for the first time or for the hundth time with a lot more ease and and accessibility. Um, which is great to see in the different regions of of the world, it's very different. Um, I'm curious, um, when you think about like the DeFi landscape now and and onchain ecosystem, if you could kind of wave a magic wand and fix one major problem, um, what would that be for your individual kind of, uh, suites of of issues?

I mean the tools are are there. I don't think there's uh we just have to compose them correctly and distribute them correctly. Uh and let the user see the user value. Actually I don't think there's uh much of a challenge there. Uh again the thing that is you know um it's a tough uh tradeoff is the institutional adoption right.

uh we all uh love the DeFi ecosystem and so on but you know this is getting more and more regulated uh privacy is an issue there uh so that's that's the issue right how how do we uh preserve privacy but uh scale uh crypto adoption

is there anything else that these institutions are waiting to see you know some things that we've heard are just time right consistency Well, obviously they want regulatory clarity, but uh in a default way they want to see everything. That's a problem actually.

I guess what I want to see is basically an international regulation of stable coins. Basically, I think this would help. Of course, it's a huge task and maybe can do be done very way very way very way very way very way very way very way very way very way very way very way very very wrong basically and I guess uh yeah it won't happen but it would help like everyone I guess somehow and uh yeah but I don't think and this more like outlook is somehow I think that maybe it's also time where you have matory back slash because if people have access to US dollar and then the local economy starts to be local Uh yeah. So it's it's a tough thing to do basically but I guess it would it would leaprog our space but yeah.

Yeah I agree. I mean this is it goes back to track fairy right. It's it's this the fact that every nation does its own version of a regulation and has you know different standards. One one example KYC standards. Switzerland has different KYC standards than the European Union which messes up uh UX because you have to do two different KYCs you know for using it in Switzerland than in the EU and and um this addes so much friction to the system just this like the harmonization but that obviously that only works if you have like a lighter type of regulation which allows different things.

I mean, you see it very nicely with with Mika right now and the US regulation which are literally kind of they're they're contradicting them themselves. So now decentralized projects are forced to issue two stable coins in for two markets which has zero advantages just because those two regulations contraject themselves and and everyone thinks like they are they have a better better one. Um this is is uh yeah it's unfortunately it's a bit wishful thinking I would argue

it's now your wish this has been my wish

I know but I'm just basically going into the same thing because this is a very current discussion what we're seeing in Switzerland right now right Switzerland has no regulation for stable coins at the moment um but basically this allows like it completely blocks centralized stable coins now the discussions are starting on how we could do that but it's you know one more of the same think that the Swiss regulation will then not be kind of like compatible with the European regulation and not be compatible with the with American regulation. So, wow, now I have to do three stable coins. Cool. Very good. [laughter] Like, you know what?

Good job. Um, so that that probably would also be one of my things. But then also the understanding in in institutional I had this uh quite nasty conversation a couple of weeks ago on a panel in Lithenstein uh where there is this notion of certain banks where or not banks regulated players they go it's good because it's regulated and it's regulated but there's like not not the why but it's just this this um direct connection we we we try to make this case of you know need to we need to be compliant. It's super important. But compliance does not equal regulation.

So you can also be very compliant with any, you know, uh, laws and and legal frameworks without having, you know, a stamp which often times actually gives you more disadvantages than advantages because you have to deal with systems which are old, which are outdated, which are slow. Um and and and and I would I always make this this point like do you want to bend backwards twice to squeeze yourself into an old existing inefficient bad system or do you want to build good systems and say okay let's you know let's make the system so good that the old players coming from the old systems are actually saying hey you know it's actually beneficial for us not to force those new players to bend backwards and and try to squeeze in our existing ones but we actually open up and and work with them. That's maybe an ask for the banks out here, right? You know, uh, learn about a space. There's very very few few regulated bank banks here actually in in in Argentina, which which is a shame.

I had a conversation with a a good friend of mine just before who's a founder of a large DeFi protocol and he has asked me like I asked myself like what what am I doing here? We working with all those regulated players and banks and none of them are here. Where are they? So, uh, you know, please you know come come to the technical conference.

That's a wish. Yeah. The question before was the magic one question. So it's like, you know, I'd say to build on your point, Martin, if the central banks of all of these countries acknowledge that their local stable coins as legal tender, then the banks would fall in, then the merchant processors were fall in, and then we'd get what would make my job a lot easier, which is that the entire local economy would be run on these stable coins. And then if the settlement could just be on chain 24/7, we wouldn't have to deal with these legacy systems.

And that would make I mean right now like within FX markets, stablecoin markets, the service we're already innovated, it's already better than these legacy systems, right? Generally speaking, you know, I mean the the UI of all of these platforms, I'd say the majority of these like whether they're web 2.5 or fully web 3 D5 protocols are better generally speaking than these old, you know, banking apps and whatnot. And then but there still isn't the depth and liquidity in these like onchain stable coin FX markets that there is in Trafy, right? like the the depth on you know these like you know the the FX desks are hundreds of millions of dollars where we have like 1 to 5% of that on chain and we're just we're missing these big institutional participants with big money coming in.

I like being, you know, uh, uh, one of like the deepest liquidity players in the region, but but like it's just me and I'm not that liquid, right? Like we're a startup, which is like we need, you know, this big institutional money to kind of come in and and really expand the sector. But if like all of my clients and my clients clients and their clients and their and their consumers were paying with these onchain, you know, these local stable coins, it would make everyone's life a lot easier, too.

Yeah. My optimist optimistic take there is that uh in Latin America you have two things that happen uh regularly you know you have regulatory capture absolutely that's a yes uh and uh you also have regulatory what I call it uh spillovers right so uh this case USA they they did the genius act and so on so Latin American players start start to um claim compliance to that right even without a local regulation in place. Uh and I think that's a good practice. Uh and I think that's a that's a practice that the consumer or the client uh should also demand, right? Uh I think the industry is mature enough to claim compliance even without a local regulation in place.

Uh obviously you have cases like Mexico and Brazil that they have their own frameworks and uh the regulatory capture there is you know uh um [snorts] often uh but um but [clears throat] I think we are in in you know I'm optimistic in terms of the spillovers of that uh that regulation coming from the USA.

Yeah not not surprised that all of our answers related to to regulations. interesting to see you know the different economies take a few steps forward then like even in recently in the news the UK instituting a a limit of stable currencies for the individual person you know sometimes we take steps back as well um we have about 2 minutes left I just want to give you guys like 20 30 seconds each knowing you know who is might be in the audience and the the network that might be here um you know who are you guys looking to partner with what are some things that you guys might want to seek out at these sorts of conferences and partnerships you might be looking to make you guys around 30 seconds each we can start with I mean I have one very specific ask actually because I I I'm being asked by everyone that we should do that. Um if there's anyone from a here you know please please speak up or please stand up. Uh I I know that there's some interest in having a Swiss Frank stable coins but we just haven't found the proper inroads to the team. Uh you know we're here we're liquid.

Uh we're we're ready to kind of set set something call up but uh and I I believe you you might want to have the Swiss Frank on on a as well.

All right. Go for it.

Yeah, we are interested to meet like non dollar USD dollar stable issuers because we need to know what their need is basically and what they want to have on chain. What's what what their plan are. That's likely basically what [clears throat] I'm here for too.

Yeah. For us, we're doing a lot of partnerships with non-dollar stable coins and also local FX market makers in in each country.

Yeah. Our whole goal is is to be the local infrastructure for anyone that wants to do a soft landing in Latin America. Uh wallets, wallets, exchange, PSP, uh you name it. Um so again you know institutional adoption and partnerships with banking partners and so on. Uh but again uh probably we'll have to start from the more risk tolerant to the least right.

Uh so basically that's a message uh avoid the uh that path and do the leap frog and skip that because this is the future and it's going to eventually happen.

Great. Sounds like some knowledge sharing and partnerships could even be happening on the stage. Um, well, that's about it for uh this panel. Thank you guys very much for listening and thank you to our speakers for, you know, sharing your time with us. It was really exciting to hear how the different elements of the world are playing into this market.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks.