Panel 1 - The Role Of Stablecoins In Developing Nations & Hyperinflationary Economies

hello everyone I'm Jan founder of uh Banker Smith we are developing a synthetic US dollar that's backed by Delta neutal mechanism uh it's great to see you in Istanbul actually and I believe uh as a Turkish person Istanbul is the best place to talk about stable coins uh Istanbul has been a commercial center and Trade Center for centuries and it's not just the center for Commerce and trade but also has been a bridge between West and East for thousands of years so I cannot think a better plac in istan to talk about stable coins uh today's topic for this panel is role of stable coins in emerging markets and hyperinflationary economies uh so firstly I'll ask our speakers to introduce themselves and then we'll start discussing all right uh hi guys thank you for having us my name is Wayne hang I'm from Taiwan and I really flew in just for today's event um 12-hour flight uh I'm involved in two organizations one is I'm co-founder and Co to xrex xrex is a stable coin focused uh fintech that uh provides crossb payments as well as crypto trading for users in Emerging Markets um and especially for small medium businesses so we facilitate a lot of usage of stable coin for people who absolutely abolutely are not in crypto who don't understand crypto or blockchain who are just brick-and morar businesses textile fishing agriculture uh manufacturing uh so that's xrex uh we are centralized uh fully licensed uh the Taiwanese government sits on our board made a direct investment for good or bad but uh I give credits to the government uh and also very large Banks uh we also started as a separate complete separate entity a nonprofit organization called the unas foundation uh which operates the unas protocol it's a defi protocol um that uh mince out stable coins P to Emerging Market currencies right now we support the Indian rupe and the Vietnamese Dome uh and uh these stable coins are over reserved 130% to 200% with US dollar stable coins so it's synthetic uh stable coins reserved with US dollar uh cash or cash equivalent uh essentially uh and uh mainting out uh stable coins for emerging markets uh and especially suited for the Turkish lra for example so that's what we do hey I am Julian nesk um I'm Argentinian and I think I think I got some things to say about the use of stable coins in hyperinflation economies uh last month we had 15% of inflation in a month um so I think uh the use of stable coins there is um being very useful um then I'm currently working for katki uh we do Financial Services mainly treasury management uh for Dows I'm working for nosis da at the moment but we all work with uh ens balancer um cow and we're also in the try Committee of of Lio um so yeah that's uh that's me hello everyone I'm sinan coach I'm the founder of Bila a Turkish Rach stable coin and we're also one of the largest market makers uh in the Turkish market hi uh my name is Richard I'm a co-founder at International stable currency International stable currency uh is essentially a hard money again uh there was a gold standard 50 years ago in the US uh but then since everyone has moved to Fiat we want to bring back hard money so but instead of just being gold uh we're basket of financial assets so Global stock Global bonds short-term treasury gold and cash and we're pegged to that so we're not just backed by that so we're P to that so the advantage for for this is that if the user holds their token they actually are no longer suscep able to inflation uh this basket was optimized for stability uh over instead of being optimized for return uh we want to essentially first Target defi user as like a good uh store of value uh but at some point we actually want to become like the currency of the world like what comes after the US dollar especially now that there's like mid to high inflation for US dollar nothing compared to L or pezo but uh still there's High inflation and I think it's quite easy with crypto to actually make a hard currency again uh yeah hey everyone my name is namik I'm part of the Strategic business development team at consensus a little bit about me I'm Turkish cypriot azer bani so as some of you may know turer Cyprus is one of the few countries that's not recognized by anyone except for turkey and aeran is a country developing Market where the peg currency devalued 80% in the span of just a few months back in 2015 my background includes being a port a portfolio manager at the crypto prop trading firm at working as an investor at a crypt native Venture fund as well as just building like privacy infrastructure because I think it's important at consensus I focus on metamask and Linea um and Yes stable coins are top of mind at all moments uh just a few days ago I went to the OTC desks in Turkey in the Grand Bazaar and uh fun fact there's over100 million in volume today um by today I mean daily um that goes through the Grand bizaar which is actually more than some exchanges in Turkey thanks for the introduction so like let's start with the discussion with the most obvious question what are the use cases of stable coins in emerging and hyperinflationary markets is it hedging B2B P2P transactions store of value or maybe all or maybe something you want to add Wayne would you like to start um yeah so uh we primarily facilitate crossb uh businesses to use stable coins today it's mainly uh tether's usdt as a way to access US dollar liquidity right uh these um like are Indian users um Taiwan is a manufacturing country right we manufacture so much stuff smartphones uh notebooks uh but we don't want the Indian rupee for many reasons we want the US dollar um and so for crossb merchants really they need um they just need great US dollar liquidity now it's super difficult to get a US dollar bank account in India as individual you basically have no chance right the RBI kind of prohibits this so as an individual you can't get a US dollar bank account as a business it's really hard and um a official numbers uh the Indian Central Bank The Reserve Bank of India past nine years they Supply they're able to supply 13 13% of the country's Forex needs the rest 87% well you you're on your own so you have to go through informal channels the government doesn't like to you to call it the black market because that's how the country operates it's informal Channel or unorganized channel right basically um Merchants trading with each other and um so when they trade these offshore US dollar uh it's also very hard for them to even have a US dollar bank account you need to go and register incorporate a company in Hong Kong Dubai or Singapore and once you're Incorporated you hire a bookkeeper you keep the books and then you go to these Banks you have to buy some bad financial product putting a lot of money and then they'll give you a bank account that's how you get US dollar access uh but today you know you have metamask you have usdt usdc and you have great uh US dollar liquidity plus then you have companies like us that help uh publicly listed companies understand stable coins help their Auditors usually a big four um to allow them to legally in a fully compliant way accept uh stable coins as payment when they export to emerg markets um and so so yeah that that's uh the main use case that we see today and last year a lot of public companies come to us say you know uh so many when we export to Latin America India Africa all the buyers now want to pay us in usdt what's usdt like we can't hold this on our books Auditors says no blah blah right we tell them oh you can do it we're licensed through us no we're not going to use you we just this year it come to us we have to take usdt they're buying from our competitors how are our competitors doing it why are our competitors able to accept usdt and we're not okay so we work with the Auditors so so that's what that's what we see happening today yes so Argentina is the country in the world outside of the US with the highest amount of uh US dollar physical US dollars in the world and the reason is that uh well mainly inflation um but we don't like to have dollars in the banks because we have been screwed by them already in 2001 uh the government converted automatically all US dollar deposits into Pesos and after that the following day devaluated the currency 70% so basically SE 70% of the Assets Now in stable coins you still need to pretty much trust the custodian but it's a US custodian or Nation or wherever but it's not Argentinian we don't like Argentinian banks for sure so and also like people is actually buying and selling apartments on cash anything that's uh pretty inconvenient when you need to buy and carry like half a million dollars in cash it's not a very secure country so Ste coins are actually providing uh solutions for end users that uh yeah want to transact um now at the moment in Argentina if you want to make a US dollar bank transfer if you make more than one the bank is going to call you and ask you why do you want to make a transaction that's not very convenient right so stable coins are a way to uh elude all these government restrictions uh we have as I said 15% monthly inflation rate um so you need to hatch against inflation and you're not allowed to buy US Dollar on on on the official Market you need to either carry cash and buy physical dollars uh you can do some Financial um transactions but then you get exposure to Argentinian bonds for two weeks or uh you can buy a stable coin and then you can hold a stable coin you can get a crypto credit card and you can spend your stable coins and they are converted on the spot to Argentinian Pesos so you can get zero exposure to to uh a very very very deflationary currency inflationary currency so yeah that's the use case leaving yeah thanks Jullian so turkey is the highest inflation country after Argentina and this has been actually in the last couple years and one of the largest reason is because the government's decision on the interest rate of Turkish L where while there was inflation all around the world and every Central Bank was increasing the interest rates turkey decided to lower them and go after a different model so this caused Turkish L to lose a lot of value in the past but by law you have to be paid with Turkish L and you have to pay your rent in Turkish L and you cannot spend dollars uh in this country so we as uh Bila work as a medium of exchange stable coin rather than a store of value and our goal is once people get their salaries in Turkish L is to convert them into uh USD denominated stable coins or Bitcoin uh to move to a more store value currency and as the banks uh try to uh push the retail away from buying US dollars from the traditional market today there's a 3% spread between buying and selling US Dollars and there's also a 20 bips tax on buying US Dollars and all of the reason for this is the government to try to push away people to get into dollars but with stable coins there's a market being created where the spread between buying and S selling is only 10 to 20 bips and there's no uh tax on it so this creates a deeper more efficient market and we have seen a lot of volume of people moving into stable coin transactions rather than uh buying it from a bank so we uh see this uh as growing a lot and also as regulation comes uh being able to get interest rate to your Turkish stable coin will be very important uh and because in a high inflation AR uh era uh people need to get the yield to protect themselves either by getting yield for that respective currency or moving into more stable coins like dollars or Bitcoin yeah uh I think the main point of stable coin and crypto in general is to be able to like go straight for efficiency and why is it more efficient it's not because blockchain is a better computer than uh a normal PC it's because it cannot be stopped by government so it cannot even if there's regulation you you have a choice to either comply with the regulation or not or ignore it and that allows for high efficiency so they cannot impose a tax and they cannot say oh if you want to do Forex you need to go through that bank no you can do Forex against anyone and that's really the power of crypto and stable coin essentially that like okay anyone can be a FX broker on train and that allows for very very strong efficiency the government might want to stop stop it but they can't because that that's the decentralized nature of crypto uh and that will allow us to actually accelerate the economy because now business don't need to worry about uh making sure that they comply with all the regulation they just accept payment and send payment so that's actually why it's easy to send usdt across borders that you don't need to check all the Box all the regulation in order to do this you just give me your address I send you the money you invoice me and so on it's up it's back in or cord but if I need to go to the bank I send money to that the bank is who is this it takes time their banks have their checks then they need to settle with a bigger Banks uh in the US often and that creates a lot of inefficiency it's just a bunch of regulations stack on top of each other uh that creates this inefficiency if there was no such regulation and the government did not care we could actually use straty the advantage of now moving to crypto uh or assist system based on crypto especially powered by stable coin is that we will never have to go back uh to an inefficient system because if you start to be inefficient there's going to be someone have that will have a decentralized system uh that's going to be efficient and they're always going to win now uh now the advantage of crypto also is it allows to actually create better money and that's actually where IC coming from there there's also the Bitcoin hypothesis that's like the Ultimate Gold Standard that's also possible thanks to to crypto uh but yeah that's basically I I think why stable coin will win over time uh as at at for now for for for like uh in like longdistance transfer because those are the hardest but eventually also local transaction uh as the app the wallet app get better and better uh so yeah so I mean I think a lot of really good points have made been made so I don't know how many more are left but I'll try um yeah I mean ultimately stable coins blur the line between borders right and I think that's the real use case that's the real value ad um you are no longer beholden towards institutions of your nation right um that and that's a GameChanger people mentioned on this panel hey in Argentina um I don't trust my bank and that's not a you know oneoff Wonder right in Cyprus on the Greek side just a few years ago as a result of the Greco crisis if you had a lot of money in the bank congratulations you're now an equity holder in this bank right that's not what they signed up for that's what they got and many times you might be able to have US dollar as opposed to your denominated home currency but if the bank SL your custodian is going under you are going under right and this is just a fundamental problem that the vast majority of the world faces and the stable coin successfully allows you to drisk from your individual Nation right now there are other issues of stable coins so like usdc you know it's not exactly ultrasound in the way that it will it'll never be burned right or your usdc will always have value that's not necessarily the case but we are moving towards a world in which hell I mean usdt is adopted right in usdt and Tron are the winners so I mean we as a industry now have to be very very cognizant of the fact that stable coins are the largest aspect of our industry that is where people have found the pmf product Market fit uh remittances are massive and in general I think that the way we need to find the way to get users to transact on ethereum in a trustless manner and stable coins are the way to get there right now there's a lot of other problems that we have to figure out but I think we're off to a pretty good start so of options in the market available for the stable coins but for some reason only usdt and usdc have found product Market fit and wi adoption like I like to ask you why is this the case what can be done to solve this problem for some and like is it possible and what could be the New Alternatives who would like to start I could say because they work yeah they work others also work there's a network effect first uh and there's value ad I think those are needs to be the differentiating factor usdt the the value ad is that you could settle between exchanges and crypto so they got pmf very quickly like it was very hard for crypto exchange to get uh USD bank account and you need to transact with all your user they all want to deposit USD and so on so usdt became look we'll solve the bankingsales more trusted they're more transparent they're more regulated that was the value ad I think if you start a currency and you also add that this value ad and you might need to incentivize also you might reach also a network effect but until you you reach a certain n network effect it's very hard for currency to be actually uh useful uh because nobody's willing to uh accept it just want to hop on here I think they're just diametrically opposed and they're able to capture a large percentage dig the market share as a result right usdt you know no one actually know like this might be a bit controversial but it's definitely not as audited as usdc right I think most people can agree with that uh but uscc conversely is ultimately like fully backed and you know it's ultrasound it's very regulated it is something that if we'll have the backing of the institutional system as much as anything has right and usct is very much the antithesis for that there's a reason why in a country like turkey people are actually afraid of usdc they try and transact from usdt um I think that Brian Armstrong said something very interesting just a few months ago like would' love to find a way to move away from the US dollar as the basis for these stable coins what does a crypto native stable coin look like what does is a track pretty hard that's something we haven't seen pmf in and I think that's probably because the US dollar is the reserve currency of the world right now so while the you know tur the Turkish person might want to move towards the dollar because the Turkish L isn't great and everyone does right even if right now the US dollar is printing like crazy there is a lot of inflation in the US because they are still the reserve currency they're able to just do it and inflict the second order inflation pains on the rest of the world right and that's where you're actually seeing ultimately like a lot of people entered our space in 2020 because they said yo this is not okay um we need to have an alternative to US dollar but it is still D standard it is what we're looking for an alternative to and that's why uh we don't have a non-usd pegged currency you know stable coin really hit mainstream yet uh with usdt I I'll I'll share my observations um solvency is one thing but uh for people to uh for to solve people's problems you need great liquidity uh something that I don't know how tether did it uh but during the teral Luna collapse they were redeemed 17 billion in 30 days and that was extremely difficult why because we work a lot with the intermediary Banks so when people redeem you you um withdraw your bank deposit as a stable coin issuer you withdraw your bank deposit or you sell your t- bills but then immediately you need to rely on the Swift Banks to send out your your your dollar to those that need your dollar to those that are getting out of your stable coin into dollar Redemption Mo uh to most issuers banks will will not even process a 100 million a day for you there's no way that they're going to do it it breaks so many AML policies and also because you're categorized as crypto money uh many Swift Banks just just would not process your your uh Swift transactions right so then although you're solvent it doesn't matter if you're solvent like we saw how usdc dep when the 3s Banks went down they had the treasuries they had the bank deposit people did not care people only care I want to convert back to the US dollar the next minute can I get it or not yes or no and if no then I'm going to sell you cents on the dollar and you're going to depi right um so that plumbing is also very important as a stable coin issuer because people need that your users need that um I don't know how tther is able to do it uh but provenly they did it uh and so when when you have that plumming in place and you have some banks and some intermediary Banks uh somehow are able to send money for you and you're able to provide uh your users with liquidity then of course then um you're going to be seen as a better stable coin I thought about it last night when you mentioned this I think it's because they all bank at deltec so they just do a in account transfer so that's what redeeming is it's like they move like probably from not exactly because because most users they're not redeeming directly from tether right so so you need a network of secondary markets to help you process all that liquidity basically anybody that wants to redeem usdt you need to let them redeem ASAP without too much friction ultimately otherwise they're just going to sell penny on the dollar so also to add on that so in emerging countries liquidity and availability is the most important thing and the reason why teder is a winner in the Turkish market is all about liquidity and not about trust or other stuff and the main reason is that for instance with tedar you can buy and sell a million dollars worth with moving the price only 10 to 20 bips but you move the same price for USD s die with $50,000 and the reason why the grand Bazar has embraced tther is because once a transaction happens in the grand Bazar then that person Hedges it on the crypto exchange markets between Turkish l tther so I would say for these USD stable coins for entering emerging countries liquidity is the most important thing and the liquidity is segregated so for every country that they're actually entering uh they need to create and work with market makers to provide uh that liquidity okay so it's hard for anyone any new stable coin issued to get a market share in the market but but right now you probably have seen so far that like there are new types of stable coins uh popping up every day and one of the most actually popular alternative is yield bearing stable coins and also flat coins so do you think that five% yield that most of the yield bearing stable coins give enough uh attractive to get market share do you think flat coins can be an real alternative uh to the existing Alternatives because it's a very ambitious plan to do so I like to hear your opinions on that would like to start I mean I I go for it then uh because I mean we're flat so thank you for the question uh I think the to to go for T bill or toonize t bill it's obviously in my opinion it's just flat out better than the US dollar because it's as safe as a US dollar arguably maybe even safer because it's not a bank deposit it's actual asset that the government owes you uh as we found out with svb and all the banks that failed some sometimes it's safer to just hold the asset and then you get 5% at the moment on top of it the issue with this is that you look historically 5% is is like in the last 20 years that didn't exist so at the moment it might be very popular uh but then what happens in two or three years if the interest goes back to near zero then like okay what was the point of all of this we made like maybe total 15 20% over 3 four years of high interest rate uh so that's kind of why we we could have started ISC as like okay let's just back to T bill it would be super easy it always goes up it doesn't go down we decided no what what would be a currency that what would be in 50 years 50 years from now 200 years from now what's the ultimate basket that represent uh that could represent a currency and that's why we went for very very Diversified basket of asset that would essentially perform well in 0% uh environment perform well in a 20% uh rate environment and that's truly like a better also a better currency than US dollar just flat out you're going to get no inflation uh thanks to that but yeah for now TBL just better than than US dollar they might get network effect a little bit but then it's going to die down once uh it goes back to low interest in my opinion maybe the production strategy product distribution strategy will play an important role for that for example I'm not personally particularly sure about whether the 5% yield will be enough for someone living in Emerging Markets so like a a stable coin is not meant to be uh your investment for retirement right even ISC is like we we focus on stab stability first and not really return you can have a much better uh portfolio for your retirement actually anyone should invest for their retirement they should not just sit on cash even if it's US dollar just buy better assets for your retirement so I don't think like T bill or like T Bill stable coin are necessarily like that that that's not the solution you're looking for uh if you want higher return and it's fine to want higher return I see anyone willing to take the I want to add something on this as well so uh I think having a yield bearing USD stable coin is still not enough to become the reserve currency of the world even though the USD is the reserve currency today is because during the Co era all the governments printed a lot of money and the governments have the right to print money and nothing stops them to increase a dollar supply by 50% this year so that's why Bitcoin uh is trying to become the store value and actually Libra uh tried to create a new model where it was pegged with multiple different currencies and then maybe non-government uh store values and and then the current governments went against it because they uh went after the government's power of printing money out of finer so I think uh in this new era uh having a USD denominated yield stable coin is not enough but a new method needs to be tried with blockchain technology to create a new store value currency I feel that uh yield bearing stable coins are probably going to be very popular for at least a few years and some of them can get really big market cap um but uh I also see a lot of risk I'll explain um if I'm a bank right any Bank in the world today is going to become the number one most popular bank if the bank pushes out one product I tell you I have a demand account for you this is cash account demand account or current account or check-ins account different countries have different names right this account you can withdraw money anytime I don't give you any restrictions you can make remid transactions send your money anytime you can debit uh your cards your Visa cards against this account I provide you maximum liquidity in this cash account or current account okay at the same time I give you 4% yield okay then I'm the number one bank right I defeat any other bank because any other bank is going to tell you no no no no no no no your current account has zero interest it has maximum liquidity no restrictions whatsoever zero interest you want interest put it in a savings account put in a timed account whatever right put in a a depository certificate then I give you I maximize your yield for you but there's going to be restrictions right because we're doing maturity transformation under in the underlying um and why no bank today has able to produce this product is because the risk is very hard to man manage okay why because um for example if uh for people to have exposure to us treasury bills we have Ono Finance we have Matrix for SBT stbt right so tokenized T bills these are much easier products to manage risk why because for stbt I it's an investment instrument it's not positioned and communicated to users as also a pay instrument so I'm providing you tokenized T bills as an investment instrument therefore it's easy for me to also communicate to you that by the way though Global Redemption I have a throttle we have a throttle right every day maximum 100 million redemptions if over 100 million please get in line we have all the T bills okay and we cannot just sell our T bills in one day because although they're 45 days 90 days we still lose a lot of money if we sell everything in one day so it's an investment product and there are some throttles and it's easy to communicate that and through that communication that restriction mitigate a lot of the risk uh for this investment instrument but if I position the same thing as a yield bearing stable coin and I tell you no no no there's a throttle on your redemption or you got to hold the token for at least 30 days whatever you're not going to accept it because stable coins to you is mostly a payment instrument right so you're not going to accept any restrictions so it's very hard for me to communicate that to you at the same time I attract so many uh uh holders of my token that are coming in because of a speculative motive not because of a payment motive they hold my token for what for speculative for the yield right and as soon as the yield changes they're going to dump my token because they were never using my token as a payment instrument in the first place so we saw this firstand with terraluna us right us would not have collapsed so quickly had it if it had hadn't launched anchor yeah right so let's say USD okay nobody's really using it for payment it doesn't have real world use okay fine then stay under a market cap of under 1 billion try to to grow that usage try to grow that money velocity but they didn't do that right they wanted a lot of holders so they launched this anchor 20% um uh artificial yield and all of a sudden they're like 16 billion in market cap but they had no money velocity huge market cap no money velocity super dangerous that is a speculative instrument so as soon as the anchor artificial yield went down most people done dumped us and that led to a big Bank Run and they couldn't defend it right and by the way treasury bills is exactly the same thing as anchor it is not organic people it is not organic lend lending and borrowing from the world uh within the world GDP it is artificial by the US fed right so if we launch that type of yield bearing stable coin based on t- Bill yield really the fed you know we're subject to the FED whatever the FED wants to the FED if you're if you're holding dollar is the same right yeah but then we we can launch tokenized t- BS and I say it's an investment instrument right and I'm going to have these restrictions on you whether I I can say whether it's a tokenized Dev as a stable coin or as a real or as an asset yield varing asset um I can say we'll find uh broad Market fit on Emerging Markets because uh at least in Argentina it's not easy to access those um and uh I do think think like uh 5% uh is uh relevant and significant for for for people I have I have friends asking me like hey I'm I'm getting this money I I I may want put something into crypto but I also want to hold it you know in on on on on hard money I agree but if I'm if I'm uh offering this as a payment instrument I'm creating liquidity for you I'm creating fear hon for you sorry to maximize my safety my stability I'm not going to give you yield so speculators go go hold um tokenized T bills if I position as tokenized T bills I'm going to give you restrictions also to maximize my stability so I think like we are running out of time I'm not particular sure about it but let's make it the last question so we know that like there is a market uh there's an demand for stable coins in the Emerging Market but what should be done or what could be done for further adaption in terms of application side and regulation side and also could be the non USD local denominated stable coins can grow in Emerging Markets not in Argentina not in inflationary economies like people is actually using stable coins to get away from local currency so uh why would anyone want to use a local St coin maybe States ask you to do so like for example in Turkey it's not allowed to use uh us for transactions but that's why we are using US dollar uh stable coins yeah true like uh we are not using uh US dollar stable coins because we want to use crypto we are want we are using US dollar stable coins because we want to use dollars and crypto is finding uh is providing a solution to that which uh the traditional banking system do not I think so to add on this so emerging country stable coins won't gain Market share in a sense but they will gain market share in volume sense for instance Bila uh it has a 200 mil TR AUM and usually the market makers hold it to give liquidity but in a month there's a 10 billion Turkish L volume happening with it and usually that's a move to move from Turkish L into tedar usdc or Bitcoin so I agree that uh unless you can give a yield that beats the inflation that gives a real uh value add to the currency then by a there's no way that the stable coins can gain value but but is it about the stable coin or is it about the on ramp and of R service so emerging country stable coins work as an onramp offramp service so that's the main utility of the emerging country stable coins yeah I think Richard is going to add something yeah I I think so like I think for every country the local currency as a stable coin will act as a bridge between the better economy in crypto and the local economy that hasn't move to crypto because we cannot expect that okay uh next year uh we all pick a date and we all move to crypto economy it's just not going to happen we need some a transition and the local currency will like the the local stable coin will act as this transition it's going to be easier to deal from bya to L for a a local uh exchanger but in the meantime we can use usdt and use that as a bridge uh another thing like that will allow to answer the question uh what we need in for for crypto payment to really become a reality uh we need better wallets a better wallet that they they're working on it actually like big ad option but it needs to be as seamless as visa and Master Card like I I can tap uh my Visa Master Card in a taxi in Turkey I don't trust the guy it doesn't matter like I I I'm not going to be defrauded by by using credit card we need to reach that stage for uh for crypto and we're so far away like if you want to be a proper safe crypto user you need to follow a guide of 25 step uh if you forget one of the step who knows if uh you're going to get rugged there uh that needs to change to like just one step you just tap and then everything else the security wise aspect is taken care of for you yeah a lot of very valuable insights um I I think I want to talk about I'll metion I'll talk about like the metamask the RO of the wallet in in a moment um but I think that it's also important to just acknowledge elephant in the room which is there is a way that Emerging Markets will have stable coins and that's cbdcs right um in the end of the day there's an insane amount of data that the government is able to utilize by having their own cbdcs understand money flows what is their average user doing um and then also the ability to maintain that oversight of revoking Capital if someone acts inappropriately as determined by the government right so cbdcs will always be that elephant in the room um and you know that's why I'm I'm happy there Civic be exist as non like an alternative to like in government system um but yeah I mean I definitely think that wallets are crucial when it comes to adoption of crypto and particularly stable coins and Emerging Markets that's becomes a game of localization right how can a wallet understand the stakeholders in this region as opposed to a different region and provide experiences that allow them to onramp off-ramp seamlessly but more so interface with the real world as soon as much as possible Right like you know that's a large part of the reason why consensus is in a stumble right we have so many members of the team actively engaging with various day callers to figure out hey you know this is clearly a market which needs crypto has embraced crypto to an extent that most other places haven't right Banks and exchangers have a very friendly relationship in Turkey right this isn't necessarily the case in other places um and in the same with Korea right we were there just a few months ago for KBW hey how do you localize a product an experience so that users are really really empowered to interact on chain and you know ideally interact in real life using crypto Primitives in crypto infrastructure so yeah I mean wallets do need to get better and yeah we're working on it and it's exciting I I like that you bring uh up cbdc I just I don't think cbdc will ever happen because once you stop Mees you start messing up with the business model of banks uh they will stop you and what cbdc give access to is direct access to the local fed bypassing the bank so as soon as there's a banking crisis everyone will move to that kind of money because it's is directly issued from the government it's like paper money which is much safer than bank deposit cbdcs are in zeros right Bank deposits M1 stable coins are m2s very very different but there the cbdc will be like m0 so it's safer so if there's a banking crisis it will kill the banking sector therefore it's just you just need to if cbdc are accessible by everyone you just need to top all the they won't they won't make it accessible exactly so that's why like let's not wait for cbdc to happen not the majority of the money supply I mean money is not created by m zeros M Zer in most economies like 10% of the money supply right the rest needs to be credit based money created by Banks and once right but in order to create that money it needs to be deposited in the bank and if you give me access to m0o at scale with CBD I'll give you access but that's I'll control it to 10% of the M like cash my point is like cbdc for for normal people will not happen because they will put limits as like okay you can only hold it pretty much how much they allow you to hold in cash which is like around $10,000 after that start to be criminal a little bit like what you doing with this much money it's like you need to explain it and they assume like you did something wrong for some reason yeah uh but yeah if it's in the bank it's okay for some reason thank you very much for this insightful discussion and thank you very much for listening us I think we are uh end of our time so I'd like to thank you all of them for listening us thank you guys