Panel 3 - Oracles: Ensuring Truth, Precision & Transparency in Stablecoin Ecosystems

right um so hello everybody this is the Oracle panel uh my name is yagas I'm a contributor at Hau which is a new Landing Market architecture which does not depend on Liquidators or on oracles so I'm hopefully the kind of neutral person to to moderate the panel so as you'll see shortly in the panel we have quite a lot of diversity I mean we have ZK articles as well as more classical articles and also like business people as well as more kind of tech oriented follow um so maybe first of all I'll ask each one of you to do kind of a two sentence uh intro like who are you and and what you're uh doing yeah hey everyone my name is torgan I work at chain security I do smart contract audits um I've also done quite a lot of research in the Oracle space so I wrote a paper on the tuwop Oracle and how you probably don't want to use it because multiblock me um yeah hey every everybody um Jen senhaji I'm head of growth for chronicle Labs which is an oracle system recently spun out of maker um I spent my time at the maker foundation for many years um and yeah happy to be here hi everyone now it's working great hi everyone my name is molinaa I'm with hypo Oracle we are a new ZK Oracle protocol and what's different from traditional oracles and comparison to hyper Oracle is that we're using zero knowledge proofs instead of staking for our security hi everyone Phil Kelly I'm at 01 Labs um so we're more towards the pure Tech end of the Spectrum in terms of panelists o1 labs is one of the ogs in the ZK space we've been around for about five years um we did the engineering behind the Mina protocol and then after that we're still contributing but after that we worked on SDK to allow people to build verifiable offchain computation so a bit of a mouthful but essentially um rather than relying on consensus and transparency as in you know regular decentralized networks you can now use ZK to build computations offchain that are trustless and then put the result back on chain so that's kind of relevant to oracles very relevant to oracles I think um so yeah that's my interest in this by the way I've kind of spent some time in trafi um including in Risk Management the systemic level for Central Bank um and then also in I just remember this on the way here um also in um price feed optimization in the days when tradire was in an arms race for algorithmic trading and we just basically doing things like collocation of algorithmic trading centers with um exchanges and working on ultral ultral Lacy messaging and instream processing which is way less interesting this CU like unid dimensional one one problem to solve all right so uh thank you very much for that I mean maybe to start off uh we have two types of Articles basically the more traditional articles that are often times based on staking and then we also have a ZK articles which is maybe a new thing which is kind of uh coming around right now so maybe Jen can you maybe start speaking first of all about the more traditional articles like what's going on there and how perhaps people view them what is important in uh differentiating between the different uh traditional articles yeah um I guess maybe it would be helpful to start um kind of the origin story of Chronicle and um you know this is a stable coin focused event so back in 2017 when maker was launching its first version of D Sai there was actually no oracles available so it was pre chain link pre any Oracle system so having to have an oracle available to support dye and then the collateral assets um um you know backing it um you know we we essentially built our own inhouse so we built it out of necessity to really serve this purpose of launching d uh since then you know over the years um you know as other Oracle providers came out it just became very obvious like what we have is is working um you know from a security standpoint U from a decentralization standpoint and a verif a verifiability standpoint so we just changed it and and just very recently Chronicle spun out as its own independent brand and team so from a design perspective what we're really doing is um kind of addressing the Oracle uh trilemma which you know on the previous panel they were talking about the the stable uh coin trilemma which is about you know having decentralization um uh you know Capital efficiencies and security and how can you get all of those without any tradeoffs and the same you know problem can be said for oracles right like oracles have historically been the Achilles heel of defi where you're relying on this external actor to provide very critical information to your protocol which could result in you know your protocol being drains or you know like an user is essentially losing money right really bad stuff so with our design what we are focusing on is like is not making any tradeoffs so from a security standpoint um you know we've spent a lot of time just like making sure that the the systems in place um specific to the price validators are are robust robust enough where there's enough participants um so we utilize a signature scheme that allows us to essentially add um unlimited amounts of validators so the the actors that are querying data sources and providing those data sources to the smart contract that then is uh read from all these different protocols accessing our Oracle datas so we've kind of solved this security issue where instead of having a limit of the amount of validators we can we can increase that um so from a decentralization standpoint um what we what we've done is created a reputation based network of validators so uh currently within Chronicle uh the you know a majority of the the validators are known defi operators so you have um you know entities like gitcoin and nosis and dydx these reputation um based uh actors that are not just validators their their business is not you know providing validating Services they have other core businesses in Defi and they and you know they wouldn't want to jeopardize their reputation by doing anything U malicious within the design of an oracle within our Oracle system so we've taken that approach which is quite novel um and then Furthermore with this uh the cost aspect the signature aggregation that we use uh it's it's um actually called schnore so this is something that's been used in Bitcoin for many number of years and it allows uh the compression of many signatures so being able to take many signatures for and you know from a wide variety of validators and compress them essentially into one super signature which then results in a lower cost of an oracle update because you don't have you know 10 different signatures which include 10 different um you know pieces of data going into a transaction um you you reduce that into one signature and still having all of the um the corresponding signature information available so from that perspective our design has really looked at what what are the key problems and we don't want to make a trade-off in any of those areas of decentralization security or costs all right that's a great also a great comparison Point perhaps between the more traditional oracles and the ZK oracles so perhaps Phil or marene would you like to maybe pitch in and try to contrast how some of these considerations are kind of reflected or perhaps they're uh less relevant in the ZK world then yeah so I think um the major difference when comparing traditional oracles with ZK oracles is that ZK oracles are inherently trustless so because there is no staking mechanism involved even if you were saying like you have onboarded trusted parties um and I would not assume that dydx or any of the other parties that have joined would go against like the Oracle and try to betray it but in the ZK case um you don't even have to make these trust assumptions so it's fully trustless because of the ZK proofs that are being generated off the data points you can instantly verify the data and um I think maybe another thing at least in the case of hyper Oracle but also from what I have from heard from you Phil when you were introducing the ZK Oracle Mina is working on or1 laps is working on is that um in the case of hyper Oracle we are also unlocking a suite of features that are quite new to the idea of like what we think an oracle is so we're going beyond the idea of just enabling price feeds but we're also unlocking secure trustless offchain computation um that functions in a similar way like a ZK rollup does um so we could also argue about whether it's actually onchain or offchain what the right terminology is here but basically that allows us to then also do some really fancy advanced computations in the ZK Oracle nodes um that lets us then trigger again actions onchain so besides providing a sort of API like service to onchain data for prices for instance we can also include offchain computations that sort of Advance the possibilities of what we can do with these oracles yeah that's that's a great Point um so just for clarification by the way um we're we're a tech provider so we're not working directly on an oracle ourselves um but we're partnering with really anybody who wants to add Z K and verifi bl chain computation to their Oracle product so I think we announced a partnership with Dia um about di data about a year ago um and more recently with tella Nick who was on stage recently um so yeah I mean it's a it's a big space for Innovation once you introduced offchain verifiable computation um and I think with traditional oracles most of the focus is how do you Source reliable data and then how do you normalize it so even even with traditional oracles there is some computation involved you take multiple price feeds um you maybe eliminate outliers and then you might calculate something relatively straightforward like a volum waste average price um as Marlin said with ZK you can introduce all kinds of new calculations they could be to do with the uh metadata surrounding the Oracle price feed that comes out the recency um you could add more complex calculations such as um you know a prediction of liquidation impact on a on on um a price you could add covariance with price movements in other price feeds to try and assess the risk that there's a mango type attack going on I mean Sky's a limit I mean ZK in general just introduces a whole new area for Innovation so um I I think this is a really great point that it sounds to me kind of like this uh maybe simple Oracle problem of just getting a price from offchain markets and bringing it onchain kind of solved like let's say that all the the ZK Tech works right then we can actually like just have the binance or coinbase or the average of those or whatever price on chain and then I think the really important part is what do you do with this right because the thing you care about is usually actually not the price right like if you have um let's say a St coin what you care about is that your over your collateralization of the stable coin um never goes too low right and so you want to start liquidating the collateral if the price drops and so you actually don't care that much what the spot price is but what you care about is like I have this collateral how much can I sell it for and when do I have to start selling it so that I don't get into an under collateralized State um and so there like liquidity is super important right like you can get a much better price for one eth than you can for like if you're trying to sell a million eth at once um and so I I think these liquidity measures are super interesting um and I also think they're super hard uh so it maybe since I'm the only guy who doesn't work on oracles I I can pitch the alternative that I actually see is um Oracle free designs so this is also something that's come up pretty recently um is like the realization that actually you can have liquidations without um an oracle at all right like the simple way to think about it is you just have a Dutch auction where the price starts really high and then it goes down over time and at some point somebody buys it right and here you didn't have like a prior price but then as soon as the asset gets bought you do have a price and you know that that is a real price for like that volume as of assets because somebody just bought that volume of assets at that price right and and so in this way you can kind of have like uh liquidation price Discovery maybe um without an external price source and you can do it all on chain and then you need to just figure out like when do you need to start these Dutch auctions right that's kind of the hard part you you don't want to be liquidating people that are over collateralized um and so there's uh two protocols that I know of that are doing this right now one is called asna Finance which spun out of maker as well and there's another one which is a stable coin called Franken coin um where they actually allow permissionless starting of these Dutch auctions and they kind of have Financial incentives as well um to to do this um yeah and so I I think this is just also a really interesting thing that like even though we have maybe solved this like how do we get offchain prices onchain it might still be nice to have Oracle free designs where you're not relying on first of all the the third parties right still the ZK Oracle could go down you might not have uptime uh you might have congestion and things like this um well with congestion you may be always screwed but yeah it it's just uh interesting to me that you can actually also build liquidations without needing Oracle specifically so I'm probably the completely wrong person to push back on this but I mean the there are many different ways to skin a cat I guess and I mean in traditional Finance what people do is they're trying to use various different liquid liquidity measures when it comes to markets I mean these are some sometimes quite sophisticated algorithms and uh I guess perhaps Phil or Marlene do you want to comment more on this like is that even possible to bring these sort of sorts of algorithms into uh di products uh perhaps the next generation of defi products if not the ones that we have available right now yeah so I would say um as we see it in hyper oricle is that there has been this evolution in defi so initially we started out with def1 where everyone was able to create erc20 tokens and then we traded them on centralized exchanges then in Defy 2 we suddenly get like centralized decentralized exchanges and we get um decentralized lending but basically if we look at the tread fi world we then still have a lot more advanced uh Financial products there and possibilities right and we kind of believe that with ZK oracles we can really introduce sort of the tra uh traditional Financial products that we see in the financial Award right now so for instance derivatives ETFs stuff like that but do it in a fully onchain fashion and of course for that we also would need also in the case of stable coins we would need to do really Advanced computations and right now we cannot do that in a smart contract for once because we're limited by the gas costs it's just like way too prohibitive and way too expensive nobody would ever want to do that right um but in addition to that solidity also limits Us in the way that we can out do do floating points we cannot do statistical analysis and solidity so um we are unlocking that because our ZK Oracle nodes actually run in wasm so we can do a lot more things that we currently cannot do in a smart contract um and in addition to that we're also experimenting now with something new that we call opml which is optimistic machine learning inside the Oracle nodes so you could have a machine learning model or an algorithm that would help you with making decisions of like whether to like sell or buy something whether to liquidate a position and I think it's going to be really really exciting to see what people are going to be building with that going forward um and I think we're like really just at the beginning of like defi 3.0 so to say and yeah do you want to add something to that in case of like how you guys are working with that I mean I'd just say that in general um I mean you know Trad trafy and you know the major market trading is a extreme extremely sophisticated math heavy space um and the only thing that I think has stopped that same approach being applied to crypto and crypto oracles is the challenges we've had with putting large calculations on chain and gas costs and latency and that's what ZK offchain verifiable computation unlocks so I would expect there to be you know an explosion of the application of complex and sophisticated math to oriz um and I actually think I'm I'm I'm guessing that the market will be you know more more complex than simply you know here here's some extremely sophisticated math because I think there'll probably be def5 protocols and other actors that want to take some of the underlying data and do the math themselves and you know come up with their own what they think are competitive advantages from their analyses so I'm expecting there'll be some you know ready synthesized oracles that are uh sophisticated predictions of liquidity depth and liquidation impact for example um and then there will be a wider range of underlying data that will allow the more um Advanced people in the market to do their own calculations but as it it is always going to I mean you know like I say I came from a a trafi space where it was just an arms race for you know Mill millisecond latency so I also expect that latency will become more of an issue as well yeah so I guess as in try in defi as well we have like many different dimensions security is one then kind of complexity is another one yet another dimension is kind of affordability of these article products so um perhaps that's one direction we can also go go into I mean of course the uh Oracle Market as we have now I mean the then user rarely pays for the Oracle I mean it's the market structure is just different so is there anything interesting that can be said about how the market the Oracle Market looks now versus where it is actually uh going um I don't know Jen maybe you want to comment on that yeah um that's that's a great point right now the kind of the way oracles are thought about um who who pays for them who should pay for them who wants to pay for them there's really no kind of standard and consensus around that um right now the the current landscape is typically like the chains will will pay for those um you know on behalf of the doops Via grants um and then sometimes the daps will pay for that or the issuer right um but you know in my opinion having chains you know subsidize these costs forever doesn't really seem sustainable so I think long term you know when when that cost is is you know given back to the DAP operators or the DAP operators say hey I'm going to pass this to the user the costs are going to become like really really really critical right um and so there could be a situation where um you know the transaction of the oracles are are kind of embedded in the actual building blocks uh within the chain I know there's some experimentation or thinking around that with these super chains and having um an oracle as part of like the you know just kind of the the SDK or the cdk um of of the chain where it's built in and and oracles are just fed with each block um but yeah I I think at some point point you know we we're going to be looking at more of it like on the DAP side I think that seems like the more realistic um you know place to uh be paying for Oracle since those are like the the end consumers those are the customers um they're running their protocols and you know they you know oracles are essentially a security component so just as they you know a protocol will pay a lot of money for the top Auditors like chain security in the space um oracles are another piece of that security um so I think it feels like a natural uh you know Evolution that daps would would be considering that cost so tgan do you want to pick up on that I mean how how would you see the end user security impacted by oracles I mean does the Oracle have to be enshrined into some as some special part of the infrastructure of a particular chain given like that these multi-chain like attack multiblock attacks or possible say after ethereum switch to POS um anything interesting there yeah I mean for the multiblock attacks it's um those are mostly specific um to like onchain markets uh so basically if you're getting your price from an onchain market like let's say Unis swap um then an easy way to manipulate the the Oracle is you just manipulate the market right like this is kind of inherent to every Oracle is it can only tell you the market price so if you can actually change the market price then uh you have a problem and here you're talking about say like a univ V2 kind of twop sort of article not an external Oracle right it could be anyone right like if if you're uh using your perfect ZK Oracle that actually always guarantees you that it gives you the market price right but then somebody can just push the price on all markets plus 100% then the Oracle will tell you plus 100% right so this is a a fundamental limitation I think um usually the reason you assume this doesn't happen is because there would be Arbitrage opportunities kind of at least between markets but also like if people realize that it is a manipulation you know they would just start selling into it as as fast as they can um so the special thing about the multiblock attacks is that if you so in Unis swap the Oracle always records the prices at the end of each block and so um this should help you uh in terms of Arbitrage that like if the attacker brings the price to a wrong price at the end of the block then at the beginning of the next block there will be a bunch of me Bots that like all try to ARP him down right and then basically any profit from Arbitrage that the Bots make is a loss to the attacker um and then if uh but the special thing is that if you have these multi-block attacks um which means that the attacker could be the block proposer right so in ethereum the block proposers they're always chosen ahead of time um and so you can know like if you have stake like oh I will be proposing a block in like 5 minutes right and then you can just do your attack exactly at that moment where in the block before the one that you're proposing you increase theice price by a lot on Unis Swap and then in the next block somebody should come and Arbitrage you but because you are the block proposer you can actually choose the order of transactions right and so you just put your own transaction first and you like Arbitrage yourself right which means that you don't have any loss from this manipulation and then you put all the other MV Bots after you right and so they can't take your your money kind of um and and so this is a specific case where you can like avoid this Arbitrage loss from Market manipulation um I do think that it is actually super important to consider Market manipulation in all of these Oracle designs right like if you're using some IL liquid coin um you know like some Oracle uh uh some lending markets allow their own uh token as collateral it's almost always a terrible idea because those uh governance tokens they will not be very liquid right and so the amount of money that it takes to manipulate the en entire Market um there there have actually been attacks like this in the past um the the amount of money that it takes to move the entire Market is just not that high and there's also just not that many Market participants that will notice that this is like a manipulation versus uh normal Market movements you really can't tell uh from the outside right um and so then you can just push up the price of that collateral uh for like a fraction of the cost of of the tvl of the protocol right and then if you can just go drain the protocol afterwards because you have bad collateral um you know it's it's a profitable attack so I I think no matter how good our Oracle Solutions get like you always need to take uh liquidity into consideration and you always need to make sure that any asset that you use as a collateral asset is highly liquid and that you know the market cannot be moved by a single entity and then you have to assume like how much money does does your attacker have and how much is that state um on that point I mean I referred at the start to the potential to add um surrounding data to help interpret oracles and that could potentially be a solution to the kind of situation you're talking about where you have not only a price feed but you have um information about surrounding market and surrounding protocols so for example if you have sudden price movement and the on the and your pricing Oracle also tells you that you know there's some coefficient um indicating that similar coins have had the same price movement um then you probably would you wouldn't feel entirely safe but you'd feel safer than you would if it was a single coin Pop um and then the other thing you could potentially do is have data on you know flash loan activity um just to try and I mean there's probably nothing that's entirely deterministic but you can have additional Oracle type type data to um get better probabilistic certainty about or probabilistic bets about the the whether there's an attack going on or not um and and actually to the to question earlier about how the economics will play out in the Oracle Market I mean my assumption is that there will be protocol and you know Foundation level cost bearing for basic oracles and then because you can now do more sophisticated things um with ZK and offchain computation there could be um dap specific oracles I think there's more potential now for dap specific oracles that would then you know probably have the charge falling on the damp um and then there'll also be you know a wider range of um data feeds that the DAP could themselves turn into you know some kind of internal Oracle um which is so just to understand this better would you say that it's very likely that these daps or the DAP teams the Dows would roll their own kind of they would have their own AR arle which would only kind of produce the data that's relevant to that particular dep and they would not play like any external article provider in that in that case well I guess it depends on you we're probably going to get into some definitional stuff on you know what's an article um but certainly I mean the way that I've been talking about taking a wide arrange of underlying information and then potentially composing it into some additional statement um I mean with with ZK ZK used to be very difficult to use certainly when building offchain computation and now it's not there have been huge breakthroughs in the last couple of years so we've had people like I say we're working with um teller and and diod data and they have had our partners in general have been able to stand up you know basic poc's in like the 20 to 30 hour range um so you it's now practical to build these offchain verifiable computations and that means that yeah individual actors can I mean still they still have to have extremely trusted data going in because there's no point in verifying computation if it's you know verifying a computation on garbage um but as long as you've got verifiable data coming in which is why articles are still you know basic underlying articles are still incredibly important then yeah individual actors can turn those into derivative statements I think to add from any others or I mean yeah I I think these are like fascinating areas that can be like improvements for oracles but I at the same time like you know as a non-developer right like when we when we start adding in like you know ZK math and like more kind of complex um pieces to um ultimately know if we can trust an oracle like it it kind of moves us farther away from the the whole like basis of like defi right and to me that is like transpar transparency and verifiability just like uh die is a stable coin the thing that makes it so unique and you know the thing that has made it so resilient is that anybody anywhere with a internet connection could look at all times and see what is the value backing it what are their collaterals backing it and you don't have to be like like a developer to to see that you can just say okay this is the value of it and these are the things backing it great I have some some sense that I can trust this I want to use it uh I think similarly like we need to take that approach with oracles because you know one of the main criticisms has been that they are these black boxes right and that unless you are some developer you can't really look at the supply chain of of how a price was derived um so I think you know while it's like amazing to be able to utilize this like math right um it's important to do it in a way where like verifiability isn't uh removed because then again we're just like a lot of people are operating in the dark right we just assume the math is correct or the proofs are correct but how can we we actually know that um without having that verifiability yeah can I just respond to that so and this is a clarification we have to make quite a lot in the ZK space because ZK gets conflated and and I do this um with privacy um so it's sort of implies that ZK is a black box in fact there's an incredibly important property which is succinctness and it's the property which you know a lot of the the rollups are using um and bridges and basically you can have a derivative Oracle that publishes a price that people can trust immediately and you don't have to hide any any of the underlying data or the calculation it's just that you're giving them the output and they're able to trust it and they can they can reverifying calculation but they're able to succinctly um trust the output without um doing all the math again themselves or they can redo it on a sampling basis so yeah I agree if it's if it is a blackbox Oracle then you know you got other considerations but we looking at sucn this place um yeah maybe one other thing to add in the case of the hyper Oracle uh ZK Oracle nodes um basically what happens is you would Define like a custom logic um in what we call a ZK graph then you run that or that is being run then inside the ZK Oracle node and then the result of that is being put on chain and then you verify in a smart contract whether that computation has actually achieved the result you wanted it to achieve and if that computation is faulty then it will actually not trigger any subsequent actions on chain so there is definitely a Le like some kind of primitive builtin that will prevent anything from happening without you wanting that to happen and I think that's the whole point of using a ZK Oracle is that it will only trigger actions um I mean it's basically what we would also call intents right so only if that is being uphold then the action will actually get triggered and otherwise nothing happens um so I think sure even if an end user might not be able to inspect that if an end user is requesting okay I only want to make that trade if the price is at X level then this intent will actually be uphold um hold up on whereas in the case of another Oracle like a traditional Oracle actually you don't have these kind of security Primitives that um you do not have built in intents for instance right so I guess this means that we have to really kind of educate the user base because I mean what the transparency and ver ability means for a traditional article it's not the same thing as what people on the ZK side talk about and they mean both have advantages and and disadvantages I guess so since we have around like five minutes left is there anything uh else that you you guys would like to touch upon um perhaps so maybe just to finish this conversation real quick I mean all of blockchain only works because digital signatures work right and like 99.9% of people don't know the math behind digital signatures we just know that it works right and so I guess with CK it's the same thing of course you do need to be still transparent and say like hey this is exactly the things that R CK circuit is enforcing and then you have like uh you know maybe an external audit that confirms that this is exactly the case and things like this um but yeah I I agree that transparency is super important and um not just um in terms of like data sources and things like this but also the exact um you know postprocessing that you do such as like taking the volume weighted average or whatever and this is actually one of my biggest criticisms of uh of chain link is that sure they have this huge white paper of like how they get the data from the different nodes and then aggregate it and put it on Shain and all of that is very transparent but you have no idea what the nodes are doing right the nodes really are black boxes and I think that that's not good at all like you cannot really model attack right that's like what I do all day is I try to figure out like okay how can I attack this system and if it's a black box I just can't right and the only way you you can really do it is is you can try but this is like security by obscurity right this is not what we want we want open source we want uh you know actual hardening uh you know hardening is the idea that like if something has existed for a long time and it has been open source then it's better than if it's new because probably there have been a lot of people that have looked at it they have tried to break it and if it was breakable then uh it would have been broken by now right this is why like for a new contract I can never tell you that it's uh guaranteed to be safe for something for that's like Unis V2 there's a very very high probability that there's no bugs in the Unis swap V2 contract right because it's been live for like so many years with so many billions of dollars in it and fully um open- Source very small amount of code right I I think it's like 300 lines of code or something so if there was a bug in those 300 lines of code like the chance that somebody had found it so far uh is very high whereas if it had been a black box you know we had we would have no idea like maybe we just got lucky in that case that that it hasn't been broken excellent that's a very upbeat note to to finish on I think so uh we have three minutes left so I would like to maybe open the the open us to to questions from the audience um I think we have time for maybe one or two questions perhaps there's a question there well you can try to scream I'll try to repeat the question then yeah uh I can repeat the question so you guys were talking about ZK oracles and I'm just curious what you know what ZK oracles are already out there or are upcoming and something to check out uh maybe some recommendations thank you well I'm going to be Shilling my own Oracle then so yeah you should check out then hypo Oracle um we are uh on Sephia chest net right now and going to go live on mainnet on ethereum next year uh we do have some mainnet functionalities that's already live right now for instance we built a liquidation keeper for compound recently so you can check that went out and yeah also as mentioned before we also recently launched opml which is kind of our um attempt to build towards zkl for our Oracle noes so you can also run like machine learning inside the Oracle noes very soon um so as I said earlier we're not an oracle provider um but we're we are collaborating from a tech perspective with uh Dia data they announced uh as a partner around a year ago and then more recently with teller um and then I'd kind of say again you know we're not looking to build blackbox um algorithms but simply algorithms where you can verify the result quickly so uh hang on the mic will will probably come to you um not just scream all right go ahead uh yeah that's a good question so the question was sorry go ahead you repeat it yeah yeah how do how do the costs compare for traditional oracles uh in comparison for ZK Oracle so I think it really depends at the use case we're looking at right now um like L2 chains will pay like 2 to three million a year for chain link to just like be on that chain so in that case the cost will be significantly lower um especially for like New Market entrance because we'll be happy to be like on new l2s right um that being said when it comes to the actual cost of like executing computations in the zik Oracle node to be honest we don't have like exact benchmarks on that yet the costs will certainly go down over time as we make like advancements when it comes to the hardware side of things but I don't have exact numbers I could say right now unfortunately Jen any any number that you want to give or um yeah I I'm I'm not sure either like on the ZK side but I I I was just say like you know we you know at Chronicle we looked at at the the kind of the pricing dilemma with oracles right and how every time you add a new validator you add an additional cost to the gas costs so we're utilizing schnor which again is a signature aggregation scheme from Bitcoin and that allows you to compress um signatures into one signature and that cost is you know 80% less um than some of the leading Oracle providers so scaling long-term you know costs isn't going to be a hindrance to security um so that's kind of where we took it looking at different uh mechanisms to uh verify signatures all right so I think that we are out of time so thank you very much to the panelists and thank you to the audience once again thank you thank