Circle, Gnosis, Infix, Gearbox Protocol: Unlocking Stablecoin Adoption Through Better UX

all right next up we have another panel all about unlocking stable coin adoption Bridging the ux Gap in Defi and on this one we have alaki of circle Sebastian of nosis Kane of infinex mik of gearbox and it will be moderated by Glenn of K let's give him a round of applause welcome everybody uh my name is Glenn I'm from a company called kilm um I'm the moderator for today um we're going to be talking about the uh user experience uh in defi um and how that's affecting uh in a good way or a bad way the adoption of stable coins so maybe just to kick it off if you guys could just give us a quick intro who you are who you work for hey all uh thanks for having us here I'm Sebastian founder of Hopper and VP technology at nosis and yeah interested in and seeing how we can actually improve stable con adoption I'm coming more from the user side but yeah happy to contribute uh Kane from infinex um also founder of synthetics um previously so very focused on uh user experience at the moment uh with infinex that's our goal hello I am mik co-founder and CTO of gearbox and now we are working on M bending Ling experius directly into the account abstraction wallet and we call it credit account obstruction it's why it's so hot topic for us hey hi everyone I'm AIC I'm a group pm at Circle focused a lot on stable coin experience in utility so uh means like thinking about how we can take usdc cross chain with cctp uh how we think about account abstraction and what all we can do uh to support it so super focused on ux and utility of stable coins thanks guys so first question um if we think about some specific ux challenges um in defi um like what's what's currently the biggest barrier for stable COA dotion uh and then maybe taking that a bit further what are the key challenges and breakthroughs to to addressing these these barriers yeah I guess I can start sure if I'm going to solve the problem I should be able to speak about it um so I I think that uh what I learned and I I think what a lot of defi Founders have learned over the last like you know five six years building in in defi U that's become really obvious in the last 12 months is that uh building for enthusiasts is kind of not the end goal right um you know it worked really well for the first two or three years all the way up to defi summer um and then djent Spartan cursed us all um but uh but we we had this period where you know know everyone was an Enthusiast Everyone Cared deeply about the tech Everyone Cared about the mission uh it was very ideological um and we were never able to break out of that and so I think that the the sort of challenge for you know post defi summer defi is how do we build something that is usable for the average user that doesn't care about the technology doesn't care about um you know why we're doing it just wants utility right they have a job to be done and they they want to do it and you know when we think about stable coins today we've managed In Spite of Ourselves to build uh incredible Network effects right um we've made it as hard as possible for people to use the technology and yet so many people are using it because the stable coins are just better they're better payment rails um and you know I come from an e-commerce background and payments are really challenging you know people uh on the integration side right on the on the user side using a credit card you know we've gotten really good one one click checkout um you know saving credit cards Etc we've made the user experience much better um but we haven't necessarily uh made it a lot easier I mean stripe I think did a really good job uh of this and and you know obviously um scaled this but on the defi side we we still haven't gotten to the ux uh improvements yet you know um I think uh one of the one of the things that we have gotten wrong um is conflating uh on boarding um with on- ramping right we kind of put those two things together um and on- ramping is a challenge for sure right like the the intersection of Fiat you know we've got someone on the panel who who you know understands this the intersection of Fiat and crypto is a really challenging space for a whole bunch of reasons regulatory reasons um you know ux reasons uh there's jurisdictional reasons there's different markets there's a whole bunch of challenges uh around how you actually on-ramp people um but the onboarding problem is actually a far bigger problem right how do you make it really easy for someone to get access to crypto not necessarily to convert their feat into crypto but to just become a crypto user right um and that's what we're trying to do at infinex is make that as as seamless as possible as easy as possible for someone to uh start using crypto and one of the ways that we used to do this back in the day is manually right we were all doing things that didn't scale we would give people eth we would give people Bitcoin we would we would set a wallet up for someone we would do it and then we all got too rich and lazy and we're like yeah that's really painful right because when you on board someone to crypto they become your responsibility for life right and that's really challenging so um we you know you know what I'm talking about right the person calls you up three years later and they're like so that those words uh I didn't really need to save them did I um and and so you know we have this responsibility I think to make that process as easy as possible right not not the on- ramping process that's circle's problem um but the uh but the um the onboarding process how do we onboard someone to be able to use crypto without making it really hard without them needing to be an Enthusiast because the enthusiasts we run out of there's no more Enthusiast and it's even worse um if any of you follow Camy from the defiant even the existing enthusiasts are over it it's too hard right it's too painful to be on chain all the time and so it's not just that we ran out of Enthusiast the existing enthusiasts are also like falling away for from attrition so we need to make the the overall experience better and we need to make the onboarding experience better not the on- ramping experience very good I totally agree with you totally agree because previously we have a ftic protocol tesis and in this case the users start to work with your application after 10 steps you can't have a control so you should create your wallet create a pneumonic provide some is to make it possible to do operation Etc so you could not have a direct access and it's a huge gap between users and uh us and another part that each time in web 3 users has a two major stuff before doing any action the first point it's complex so Defy is not for people without understanding Mass Finance Etc and the second part you all time scared about something goes wrong and you can lose money there is no 24 to7 Bank line you can call and undo yes so if you have some desirable amount of money you really check twice that everything goes well and at this point we decided to make a pretty I believe better step forward so I believe the best interface which does not exist it's like code so if it could be done nature and in gearbox we want to be integrated into any account abstraction wallet so maybe with infinex as well when lensing experience could be fully abstracted and all these numbers because if you show a number in interface people start worrying about what the health factor means what's going on how it would change Etc we create a lot of mental problems for people worrying about the numbers if you can simplify X10 experience and be like a credit card you do not really thinking about when you make a payment what's going inside and it's a huge very huge technological world how the payments work if you can achieve this in crypta it would be great step forward so I think simplifying and removing interfaces it's what we should work all together I mean I would add basically like articulating what is this Gap right and to me this Gap is this perception that on the one hand side we offer something that is self- custodial in nature you are in charge you understand what is going on but on the other hand we want to onboard kind of normies right and I think everybody got exactly what Kane said here and I think we all agree on that but how do you do that well you don't go at that by telling them about you know this thing called die oh by the way now it's not called die anymore but it's actually US dollar no people know the US dollar right so how do you square these two that's really really tough right so you want people to understand it's just a US dollar right but on the other hand side you want to give them this s custodial empowerment in squaring these two I think it's incredibly hard so and I mean how on the nosis side we tackle that is by uh nosis pay having basically a Visa debit card experience that everybody understands you understand there's like US Dollar on it they don't really need to understand what's behind it right and yes we leave that to the wallets and you know all the front ends to to figure that one out but I hope we get there that we can spend money like granted the onboarding experience is hard but you know you can spend it just in the way you spend cash today yeah I think we we hear this all the time with respect to like talking to a bunch of different protocols in terms of what their biggest challenges as it comes to uh using usdc and I think the the the framing is essentially like what almost every protocol needs is like a oneclick experience right that's what everyone is kind of going towards and the two areas where that oneclick experience is the hardest is onramps and like getting assets from another chain to a specific chain um I mean onramp when you look at like hey I want to use this app you go to the front end of the app and you're just like wanting to do something the amount of steps to actually get your money from Fiat to the specific asset that you want to go to deposit in that protocol is just like too many right you need the asset you need gas you need like a bunch of different stuff ideally what a what the ideal experience should be like to pointer on stripe should be just like a oneclick experience I'm doing something and something's happening in the back end and money comes there right so I think we we think that we're seeing some good experiments there but we think that this like offchain liquidity to like depositing into onchain can very soon be a one-click experience wherein uh I I for example like coinbase did something called Magic spend which I think was a pretty interesting product wherein with one click you can connect your coinbase centralized balance and like directly onchain like that's I think the kind of experience how can you get like more offchain liquidity sources that you have on chain in in one one click and the same is for like assets on another chain like you already have crypto on some other chain uh bridging like you have to actively go into a bridge get assets there all of that should ideally be just like one click and and there's some orchestration layer under underhood that kind of does everything there so I think like more oneclick experiences for people who are actually aware about what protocol they want is important and then yes there's this whole problem of like kind of crossing the chasm to more users who don't understand then and there are like a bunch of problems right from like Discovery Etc on on how do you actually enable them to do the action that they want the the thing about one-click experiences though is in order to have a oneclick or in order for an application to do anything it needs to have state and we've boxed ourselves into this insane place where we've built thin clients everywhere that have no State the only state they have is actually on chain and so you just can't actually build anything that can help a user like the user is the thing that is managing the state movement from one click to another um and you know we just need to fix that that like it's just an obvious broken element of defi right now and and do you think wallets play a big part in this um transforming the user experience or is it a is it a shared responsibility across like all platforms all kind of actors in the in the ecosystem for for wallet specifically yeah I mean to me a wallet is the interface to uh the world and I'm not speaking for a wallet here but to me it's like you know wallet is kind of the thing that matters if I think about it end of day like what is actually going to capture the value like is it the Searchers is it the users like is it the D5 protocols I actually do think it will come down to wallets and I do think it will come down to some level of interestingly uh regulated interfaces also because we cannot that's what I meant with this Gap right you cannot like uh bridge this gap between empowering the user like fully and abstracting things away like abstracting things away means you disempower a user and that's not good and if you do that I think you should be subject to regulation right so there is just no way to to do that to disempower a user and still go to the regulator and say oh guys but by the way you know we do this decentralized thing and that's why we're allowed to do all that right no you're not and you know I think that's why wallets are important and that's the way to get there I totally agree that wallets is the thing we should focus on and we made like a some marketing analysis and we found an interesting fact that Wallace today is not funded well because the protocols itself generate a lot of profits yields Etc and really if you check the economy of different wallets in majority cases for them it's hard to add some additional charge for users because it's a very like zero switching cost you can't charge more for swaps Etc and it's very hard to create a robust uh business serving user so at the same time you gateway to the crypto and it's hard to earn money and uh at the same time the FED protocols has a lot of money but has zero users and to fill the Gap the our idea is to create a credit accounts which works literally like a credit card in normal world so we want to build a partnership when the wallet could create a credit account as an entity and at this case users could use all assets on their account as collateral and borrow against it easily inside the wallet and protocol itself are really able to share some profits with wallet and as you know in web to world the major source of profits for banks in the card sector comes from credit card not debit one because it's recur payments people are willing to pay continuously it's not like onetime events the second part it's really create a better attracting user so you became a user and it increased the switching cost and it's what we already have in normal world so I believe embeding credits and we use a full over cized credits through our technology could really create and fill the gap between wallets who has a lot of users but hard with a business model and protocols who are willing to attract new users what we have started but could make money and create this onchain user experience I I think one of the challenges for wallets um and you know I was there when Nosa started to try and roll out their App Store and you're smiling because it was a [ __ ] nightmare um and uh you know there was there was this issue where we were like okay everyone uh there's you know there's this huge amount of value that's in Nosa safes right and it can't interact with dii so let's connect it to Defi and so the solution was and you know nosus is not exactly a wallet but it's like kind you know it's something like that whatever um and so you you had this situation where um the nois BDS went out and begged all of the D5 protocols to build uh their own kind of little uh application inside the Nosa Safe app store um you know 1 in synthetics Etc um and it it really never worked because you have this separation between the wallet which manages assigning the protocol which is the onchain contracts and then the actual interface right and nosis I think got got kind of stuck in this place where every single time the contracts would be updated there was no way to kind of you know push that forward into the interface and so it was always broken and so whenever you went to use it you like go click on the one- inch button and it just doesn't work right um and when you have these separations there's no one person in this triangle between you know protocol dap and and uh wallet managing the signing that has the power to actually change the way that this is Flowing right um and nosus was close right like it was almost there but you guys weren't quite willing to kind of just take the whole thing and own it um and I I think that's uh you know with infinex that's what we're trying to do we're trying to actually pull all three of those things into a single application um and you know there's trade-offs right because it's censorable so you lose censorship resistance um it can be non non-custodial but uh that it manages signing it manages the interface and it actually uh can then you know wrap the protocols in a way that uh allows it to you know be much more opinionated and so you know until we do something like this until we have a fat application that can kind of sit there and be there for the user and manage the user experience uh we're not going to be able to break this right that that separation of concerns is really problematic just as a disclaimer like safe and nosis are separate by now but sorry sorry I'm I'm I'm too old I'm too old same same thing here no but I mean the the other thing that I would like to add I mean some points taken but also why do you use one inch um you know it's called Cal swab and it works great touche um and um yeah so I I think that you know I don't have that many issues with uh uh safe apps but you know at the same time I think we all have proven absolutely nothing until we have shown how we can run sustainable business on any of that until you have a wallet that can pay the salaries of all your deaths and all your great conferences from fees that you make one way or another as a def5 protocol the same thing as a chain the same thing we've all proven absolutely nothing you give out a free product congrats thanks VCS right like we need to get to a sustainable business model and I'm kind of happy to see that in it's pressure on wallet specifically that yeah there's been a wash out but I think it's going to be interesting to see how people actually run sustainable businesses just to follow on what you said Kane we work with a lot of wallets and one thing we've seen is traction on any any feature capability especially these earned type capabilities um when users have too choice or there's the DAP store type setup it's it's nothing compared to something that's integrated into the native flow of the of the wallet and it feels like it's part of the wallet's kind of native platform um we see it time and time again so totally agree yeah I just to quickly add I think like to me wallets will simplify a lot of the ux but it'll go one of two ways either you have like a global wallet for users and what they do is is mainly like give permissions to different dap front ends and like that's how like the US usage will be like I'm going to this tap I just give them a permission to pull certain amount of funds in some way with permissions and session keys and all of that stuff or it'll be like like to your point like all of those would converge into one like Global kind of setup like one Global front end which will manage both the protocol wallet all the signing and all of that and that'll be for like specific use cases like this is like my wallet for earning Etc so I think it can go like one of both either ways it's a little early to tell but I think both those experiences could be pretty need for the end user the problem with that though is like you create this situation where you've got and this needs a diagram unfortunately so just come with me but um you if you create a vertically integrated product solution right like you you create a wallet like hyper liquid right okay we're going to create the thing where you know signing the protocol even the chain right it's like fully vertically integrated you have still forced the user to now have an it's like the 15th standard problem right like you now okay great now I have another wallet for another chain for another use case like it's very hard to bring that back in and and kind of have a holistic uh you know solution if even in that vertical uh chain for pers for example right so it's like oh now I have a pers wallet and an a wallet and a you know uh it doesn't make the this the pro like doesn't make the problem go away for user yeah no 100% And I think like I mean if you even look at the web two side today also we have a bunch of different front ends for different use cases like there's like a different front end for your like pension account or there's a different front end for like your stocks there's a different front end where you buy crypto there are products which merge all of them and give you one stop so I think it'll be both ways though um u i I agree with you that like as an end user then if if you're going to these like different front ends and then putting in money in each of them then you probably need some like P some aggregation layer exactly they can't just be like thin feature I mean because the comparison is binance like that is the gold star you know if binance can wrap all of these different features into a single platform we're not going to compete by having 20 platforms that you need to replicate binance 100 version yeah so we we mentioned account abstraction before just very briefly um maybe we can and we could talk about this all day but maybe we can just double click on that a little bit so it's it's often discussed as a Game Changer um it you know we we see it being implemented in various ways and various platforms but what do you guys see is um how this is going to transform the experience that what practical um um uh challenges kind of there are in actually in actually implementing it properly um yeah maybe maybe I'll start so stable coins are used in two ways today right uh when you look at how stable coins are used they're either a store of value or a medium of Exchange right when I when I look at account abstraction right it kind of builds a much better experience for both those use cases and I'll explain why as a store of value if you're storing a significant amount of any stable that you have you need like you you don't need to kind of memorize seat phases you need probably like a lot more non-custodial you need something like pasis probably if you have a lot of money you need something like a multisig and we already saw that like like safe I think stores something like five six% of all usdc is actually in a safe because it is it has like multi multi and and it is a very good store of value so I think for the store of use store of um uh sto of uh value use case you would see more secure models which account abstraction by decoupling the key and the account and adding programmability at the account level enables for the medium of exchange usage it's all about like simplifying ux right you need automatic transactions you don't want like ideally just signing for everything like a simple DCA doing that onchain is today not possible in a non-custodial way it's so easy to do on on on like a centralized exchange but it's not possible to do onch so medium of exchange gets enabled by adding again programability like session Keys stuff like that um so I think like yes so I think account exraction is extremely good from a ux perspective for both these use cases the third thing which we hear all the time is like for payments and payment related use cases if I have to Simply send usdc today to you I need n token somewhere right and there's this whole aspect about account abstraction around pay masters and kind of creating that decentralized layer Network around actually using it which I think is very very also very important for how uh stable coins in general are used at the my point account abstraction is a really great great step forward and we still undervalue the things we could build up on the stack so people today more focused about simplifying authentification which is significant but let me give you a few examples the first part of course it's a pay master so Us application could provide some kind of payment for gas with L2 ecosystem it's totally doable to attract some kind of trial version of your application or you can do better cover the stuff for this payments if you have a defy app it's totally fine to pay a small amount to cover all fees what we have in today application and in this case you totally move all complexity from end users the second part is modu account abstraction it's a great utility and for example we are working on the module which could literally transfer your account into credit account in one click so it's this is one click experience and boom you have an xt0 more money on your wallet in the familiar interfaces nothing more complicated and the third part of course we have a lot of problems on the Smart Control ux it's a really industry that people do not care because in majority cases protocol developers are more focused about security and how to things happen and then ux people should really design the interface but we have a lot of problems for example with allowances and approvals it's alltime painful experience when you create and approve for some contract you should trust the contract you should check the address and all time when protocol is hacked everything is gone hey go to revoke approvals and remove of approval so we could really do better and in account abstraction we really allow users to create a buch so in one click I can make an allowance I can make a transactions and I remove loans totally so it's improv security and now it's become safer and it's a huge barrier if you use every day if crypto and read a lot of hacks you're all time worrying about am I keep some kind of allowances for this protocol if you can remove it it's really good to improve existing erc20 standard which is not ideal believe me and then make it much easier for users to remove this approval complexity and worrying about it also could be done so I am very bullish about account abstraction I think it's a great step forward but maybe wallet site also have something how we can use it to improve uh the whole overall experience yeah I mean I think you know certainly in the ethereum ecosystem uh account abstraction there's a there's a number of different approaches some of which are more Ivory Tower than others right um but one of the challenges with making a change like this is if you make this change in isolation and you don't solve some of the other issues you can actually make things worse right so there was a huge debate where people were like wait so you're telling me that we've made a better technology that allows someone to be drained of all of their ass Assets in a single signature right like and that's true like it it is a better technology because it allows you to do more things simply and now if that power is handed over to a threat actor they can drain you much faster right um we need to actually solve the the threat actor side right of like not getting fish not getting um you know which means we need to wrap signing up in things like pis for example so that you know we don't we don't have uh seed phrases floating around so we can't just solve these things in isolation right we have to solve the holistic problem um which is honestly the onboarding problem if we solve the onb boarding problem we solve all of the different issues that an average user will have in interacting with things on chain then we can use a account abstraction and not worry about it as much but in isolation it actually makes things worse and people will get wrecked harder I I would just say for the application developers the small brain version is just use safe right so I mean from the nosis side right if I look at it if I look at like across the stack right I mentioned nosis pay every nosis pay account is safe I didn't mention circles SL some Ubi think that Martin is Shilling here a lot every circles account is safe even on the infrastructure uh side right so I work in this hopper mixnet Hopper mixnet node is a safe right so everything is a safe you get all this stuff for free and like a lot of greatness uh that doesn't mean you know that that safe is fully there yet uh in terms of decentralization um but you know you you can just offboard that to some other team to take make it somebody else's problem that's what I like about safe very good and do you think that like what lessons can we learn from maybe the web 2 user experience bring it to web 3 so uh our CTO um is a web two guy um we've we've BR dragged him Kicking and Screaming into crypto over the last year it's been kind of hilarious to watch um he actually has a really good blog post uh you can you can check it out on his uh Twitter if you uh if you go to the infinex Twitter it's it's linked from there um talking about all the things that uh that we've learned in this kind of separation of concerns and um things that the JavaScript Community learned in the early days around you know uh breaking the kind of Microsoft uh uh Monopoly but then you know leading to these unintended consequences um I think the the Maj Maj thing that web 2 has learned um is you need to make people not think right like the the way to make things accessible is to make people not think and you know we've heard it a couple of times here web 3 doesn't just make you think it makes you petrified like it scares the [ __ ] out of you and it needs to because what you're doing is very scary right every click could completely wreck you um and so we need to find a way to uh let people do do things to to you know find the jobs that they need to do um and let them do them in a safe way um which again is a holistic thing right it's not it's not something you can solve in isolation I would add and I hope that's at least somewhat controversial we should not learn from web to if we try to learn from web to you know what we can Converge on it's called binance.com and binance.com works great right I've no complaints on binance.com like super fast service super fast website super nice charts and [ __ ] that's not what we want to converge on right if we want to converge on something new we have to embrace it we have to think in new paradigms and new ways of interaction the only thing we think about is how can I get to a Twitter like ux well you're going to get there right but you're going to get they're compromising the values that make up for this new space I don't yeah like I was right there with you for a long time but honestly after bashing my head against a brick wall for five years I'm like we need to we need to Pivot what we're doing is not working it works for enthusiasts but it's not working for the average user and at the end of the day if you can't on board a normal user then the tech is just going to die on the vine right and I'm not saying compromise everything right I'm not saying compromise everything we should absolutely not compromise uh being non-custodial like that for for for me still that's a bright line but there's times where and I mean you guys do it right it's okay to be censorable there's aspects of safe right that uh that are censorable um but as long as you can go to the chain and get your assets out then you're kind of okay you might not be able to get the functionality but you'll not lose your assets and I think that that's actually a compromise that's worth making that lets us have have a much better experience for the user if we're trying to play and like honestly it's a [ __ ] lie if we're trying to play this Thin Client game where we say you know the a interface is actually sensorship resistant noncustodial it's hosted in AWS bro like come on right like it we we're laring as decentralized and censorship resistant when we weren't and we need to just lean into that and go you know what the contracts are safe Unis swap is immutable Unis swap is safe but I mean Unis swaps figured this out Hayden's like YOLO let's build a mobile app right like we need things that are uh that are censorable because that's the only way we're going to improve the ux and we can fig once we' figured that out in 5 years time when someone turns up and says I'm going to make a better version of the Unis swap app that is censorship resistant that will be amazing but for the next 5 years we need to accept that maybe censorship resistance is not I mean we've got four years where probably we can get away with not worrying about censorship as much let's make the most of those four years and make sure that at the end of this cycle we're in a place where people are trying to solve the censorship problem but as long as it's non-custodial and as long as people can use it I think that's the critical thing I mean hard disagree because basically B basically the fact that a or Unis swap is on deployed on something.com or something that's ridiculous we have a system and it's called eth anybody heard about ens anybody heard about ipfs we have the [ __ ] technology the only reason why we don't use it is because people are lazy and people want to get the fastest slickest UI honestly no we can't do it and for me like the reason is like you ex this [ __ ] I agree okay it is but there's no fundamental reason that we cannot have absolutely best ux in a fully self- custodial nature and my magic moment for realizing that is actually ether Delta right so for the kind of actual D5 Boomers here you sure about that so ether Delta was the first exchange that I went to and I was like okay I've to trade some [ __ ] token here but where's the register button where's the annoying like registration and kyc and all the [ __ ] right and I was right there I could trade sure the trade wasn't great and looked like [ __ ] but so did all other centralized exchanges that time to be fair like Kraken was running on Raspberry Pi basically you were there but you were there for ideological reasons as much as anything right and the problem is you're an Enthusiast yeah of course you can I like I loved ether Delta as well right like idex either Delta those were amazing good proof of concept they do not scale and we know that because they didn't beat binance if they scaled and normal users were willing to use them then they would have beaten binance and they didn't and neither did Unis swap Unis swap got to like 1% of coinbase one day and we were all like doing Victory laps like no sorry like we didn't get there we need to Pivot to something else it's not working I totally agree and I believe all things could exist so we shouldn't pick only one kind of way let's do everything for users or for pro things but I think it's a great comparison with scrip is a Linux community and maybe Windows here it's still Linux desktop and I really enjoy this U sometime it's a still 5% of the market and people like terminal people like to fix driver progress it's a really some kind of enjoyment when finally it works and you have similar experience like in Windows but it's fully open source and you control everything it's a really enjoyable experience but not for everyone and why people in corporation Etc prefer Windows because they know how to cook it and it simply works it's not good it's not the same but I totally agree until we have a self custodial and we can create a new experience for users which could definitely could find hey in Crypt these things is much better than in normal finance and there are some different things we can deliver that it's like games etc etc it makes a lot of sense maybe to remove some kind of layers when you can definitely make everything verifiable create eer scan links Etc just to deliver the industry further awesome um times on my Subs I got one last question for you guys we need to make it quick what's uh one project One D one Innovation that you're most excited about right now and why um okay I can start so I I'll actually name two um I think one really quickly though uh I think zero Dev uh I don't know if you've heard of them but they're like a wallet as a service provider and I think they're doing some incredible stuff around embedded smart wallets for dii like almost having like an abstracted experience and what that would look like um and also tackling a lot of like the onboarding challenges like things like addresses how do you enable simpler deposits from centralized exchanges into these different apps and Etc so that's one second is this company called Dao and I think they've basically nailed the ux for what a global VMO on chain completely non-custodial would look like so yeah those were two uh I just came from the uh near um redacted conference so uh probably have to shill something from uh from near I think chain signatures are uh something that's a huge unlock for defi um one of the challenges you know talking about taking down binance um that we've had over the years is we can't support xrp or cardano or likecoin now as much as we don't want to support those things unfortunately the market says that you need to support them and we're laring if we're like yeah we're going to beat binance but you can't support Litecoin you need Bitcoin cash I'm sorry like you just have to have it um and so the ability to unlock those Boomer nonsense assets is like pretty critical for us nice okay so as uh probably came out before uh I do think that censorship resistance incredible neutrality is the only thing that actually makes a difference and you know therefore if the US banking system is at the center of the slide I think we lost our cause here so anyway my shout out here is uh circles uh not Circle but the one with the S behind um yeah a kind of fair money project that Martin coulman founder of nosis will talk about more this week uh that tries to go a very different route and not necessarily be stable but fair money I really interested in building this al2 ecosystem combining with account obstruction because now there are a few projects we who are building a low latency blockchains and for gearbox is crucial because previously we tried to build a margin trading experience and if the block takes 12 seconds it's not a margin trading experience people really want yeah it's like a very slow imagine your Char GPT will produce one W per hour here so you never use it and if you can make like I don't know 50 milliseconds or at least like in unine 250 milliseconds we at least could achieve the same Web Two responsibility and all together we simplifying the interface it could be a very good combination to make X10 totally emergent uh interface for user excellent um guys thank you very much very insightful very enjoyable please uh Round of Applause for our panelists thank you so much thanks