Panel 5 - Maintaining A Treasury of Centralised vs Decentralised vs Mixed Assets

all right I think we should start good to have you everybody on the panel um I think what we should do first is just to give you one minute intro to everybody maybe starting with Cassidy so if you could just give us a brief background into what you focus on what's your background how you got into this space and then let's just take it from there yeah sure um so yeah my name is Cassidy I work at Center fuge I'm a co-founder um set up our foundation there my background in uh Central Banking actually um and so that's actually why I was interviewing Michael earlier today if any of you were there um so that's how I got into crypto was just seeing how useful uh blockchain could actually be for our financial system and for Central Banking in particular and I think that's what makes it so exciting to have this conversation around treasury management stable coins and how we can actually innovate on that Adrian uh my name is Adrian my government name is Adrian I goow by adcv ER I'm a partner at steakhous Financial we're professional stable coin nerds we're a boutique consulting company that works with stable coins such as maker protocols such as Lio we work with Venus protocol as well Badger da um so yeah we have a range of backgrounds and we tend to focus on applying let's say learning from the best of Orthodox Bank management practices from an asset and liability management perspective and applying them to protocols that we work with in terms of the recommendation that we issue and generally I think it tends to work um and I think this is something that we we are Keen to roll out to to other protocols Martin and hi I'm Martin so I've uh quite some experience in blockchain stuff like 10 years or more and now I'm a curve contributor being and since like 3 month and I'm going to talk about curve USD most mostly or what we are doing with C USD and uh yeah that's me and last but not least Sam hi uh I'm Sam I'm head of I lead growth at liquidy the decentralized baring protocol my journey into crypto I think is a bit more degenerate than most here I just used dii all throughout defi summer used different protocols was one of the first users of liquidy as well was very impressed by the design mechanism and everything there and one thing led to another so yeah liquidy is essentially a decentralized borrowing protocol where you can borrow against your ether uh your loans are paid out in a stable coin called LUSD which is an over collateralized stable coin backed only by Ether making it the most decentralized one in the space yeah looking forward to our discussion today perfect and my name is Matt I lead the BD efforts of redstone which is an oracle provider so we cooperate a lot with stable coin protocols either on the consumption side of things so providing them price feeds for collateral assets but also creating the price feeds for the stable coins itself to have them listed at lending protocols or different dii applications so definitely happy to be here and to start let me take a step back and start with principles actually so these are not my words this is something that Arthur he so the co-founder of bitmax said in an article from from March this year so it's not a direct quote but he said something along the lines of well that he sees the the importance of decentralized stable coins not being that great because we have another means of exchanging value in a decentralized manner such as Bitcoin ether whatever you want to call it so stable coins are not meant to serve as another way of sharing the value in in a decentralized way or as a store of value in a decentralized way they just have to bridge the gap between web 2 and web 3 so provide the tokenization um services that Banks do not provide often times he basically says that we don't need decentralized stable coins so I would like to start with some uh from liquid why is Arthur wrong on that front why do we need the centralized stable coins in the first place yeah I think personally at least I think this comes from a pretty uh prestigious kind of mindset of I think living in a western country or a country where you know the government works as is and everything works very smoothly I personally am from a developing country and I currently live in in Latin America as well and I personally SE in firsthand experience of governance governments being inept with the way they deal with things and the common folk kind of being shafted on getting loans literally on on mortgages or whatever it is is because of the high interest rates that are out there I think stable coins especially decentralized ones provide a means of moving away from these bureaucratic governments that are out there in the world while also providing a new economy on chain and I can give an example of a particular Community user we have who wanted to buy a car in Guatemala and he went to the local bank to try and get a loan and the interest rates were 30% a year to to borrow in gu ala his solution to this problem was he used liquidy in the end but he his Solutions was either going to maker going to a or going to liquidy to borrow against The Ether stash that he had pay 0.5% which he paid paid in borrow fees with liquidy but he could have done the same with others as well and borrow a stable coin that is completely predictable and judged by code and not nothing to do with human interactions and all he did for that entire inter fraction was pay that small fee to start with right he could not have done this in his local country and I feel like this same situation applies to a lot of the different countries that we live in um turkey might be one as well and there are quite a few in the audience who I'm sure part of one as well and I think you got also can't rely completely on what governments will do and what the Federal Reserve of separ specific countries will do and I think that's a means that decentralized stable coins that are completely backed by trust collateral be it eth or BTC provide which which I think um others don't I add something there as well I think um controlling a currency is extremely powerful you are able to control the world economy through that and uh I think we see that in a lot of like disputes that happen a lot of wars that happen um it's an incredibly big opportunity that we have with stable coins to finally have a currency separated from a nation state separated from the power and and the separate incentives that governments have to control their citizens versus us as individuals wanting to transact with each other if we could actually decouple those things and have a stable coin that's completely separate from a nation I think that gives individuals an extreme amount of power and I actually think that's probably one of the biggest threats that governments will see in stable coin Martin From curve's perspective is it perfectly aligned with what liquidity liquidity thinks about this or do you have like some other I think I have a very different argument in a way because I think this industry is built from inside out so if you see how Innovation happens it's not coming from outside so if people try to make like defi protocols that they're coming from outside most the people fail so if you have like a dread F idea here or you are like fine Tech and you want to make build stuff on chain and be successful you you're not going to succeed so one reason why we need decentralized stable coins is because people inside this industry will choose the decentralized stable coin as a currency of the choice because we are aligned with the values with them and our values so this is like a very different yeah argument basically I don't know if it's curves argument because I can care is a contributor system so just one voice from your perspective okay Adrian so question to you wouldn't it be sufficient if we just had a network of a couple of stable coins that are issued by centralized entities but the proper ones that are done in a bankruptcy remote way um that are not controlled by one government but you know you could you could escape the the US government if you wanted if you wanted to go to Hong Kong or or UAE wherever you want to go you have the ability wouldn't that be sufficient do you think that we need fully decentralized stable coins to have those goals achieved or do you think that we would be okay with just having having that I think when it comes to Dollar stable coins um so I think it depends when it comes to Dollar stable coins run was alluding earlier to a market reality which is that essentially the stable coin socaled stable coin trama is a bit of a iops that we've talked ourselves into believing in if you don't have stability price stability you don't have a stable coin in dollars or in anything so if you have a Bitcoin stable coin and it it's not P to bitcoin it's not a Bitcoin stable coin it's it's not a thing so I think in that respect every ultimately every dollar pegged stable coin ultimately has to end up holding some type of dollar asset now within that context there's always a menu of options that are available and I think decentralized stable coins have I I actually like the framing that uh Sam made for liquid as a leverage engine as a lending platform because that's essentially what CDP stable coins are and I think they do that job very well like the CDP primitive is a very very good and useful thing for a specific set of users and it has the added benefit that you can then you know use the receipt token as a currency in defi for example ER I think my personal preference would be to see a landscape of more competition I think that's ultimately what benefits the user the benefit of sort of crypto rails and crypto ifying the euro dollar let's say is that you can socialize the benefits of uh dollar to the user where in a euro dollar system for example if you had a bank offshore from the US holding dollar liabilities and investing those assets the benefits largely ACW to the shareholders of the bank and unfortunately you see that same tendency with PR private stable coins like Circle or tether where all of the benefits of this new primitive called a stable coin acre to the shareholders of circle and te and where I think decentralized stable coins have an opportunity to thrive is in making space for something in the middle and forcing that competition to continue because the market Tendencies are going to overwhelmingly favor the stable coin that other people choose uh and in my view at the moment it cly seems to be tether right um so I think more competition tether is clearly doing a very good job at being payment rails for a lot of people worldwide but I would prefer a landscape with more competition both from Fiat bu stable coins and from decentralized stable coins as a source of Leverage for leverage Seekers and as well as a let's say currency for the defi space we are an economy you know the people in this room we have a weird little economy with like the NF s and the fruits and the yams and the foods and I think that has that needs a currency of its own as well and that's fine so I think more competition is my preference Cassidy how do rwas fit into the decentralized stable coin narrative can you marry those two concepts somehow do you think it's possible to have a a decentralized you know at least sufficiently decentralized stable coin while having rwas in the reserve or should it be just looked at differently those are different types of of of stable coins that we should should keep in mind I think I mean there's two sides to look at it one side is actually from the rwa perspective um I think it's amazing if you could get a loan for your house using a St a decentralized stable coin wouldn't that be so cool that you could do something like that and not have to rely on as I said before like a nation State currency of the US dollar um I think going in that direction for me is super interesting um and then on the other side of it like I would say there is a balance that we can find in terms of decentralizing how we use real world assets as much as possible to give you an example I mean if you have a dow voting to have some sort of you know debt cealing for a specific type of asset um you can automate actually a lot of that and a lot of the things that we can do with stable coins today um just cuts out out a lot of um what I think is uh either you know taking uh middlemen taking a lot of profit in the middle or some sort of um added risk uh that that people are taking that uh is very intransparent and we're able to like now with ruled assets have full transparency of exactly every single asset I mean with Cent fuge there's an NF that represents each individual asset you can see all of the payments that are coming in you can see every little detail about these assets um as the stable coin right and so then you're able to much better manage how the stable coin is holding these different types of assets and you can actually automate quite a lot of that um and I think going in this direction for me is going in a decentralized direction where you have also a dow of token holders making the decision in the first place on the high level of you know how to to position the portfolio of that Dow and then everything else underneath that can be automated so I think for me there's um a balance there and you know going a lot more in this decentralization direction and to build on the importance of platforms like centrifuge and building on the sort of transparency that they're setting forward for real world assets is I think like I was reminded of this this morning with the announcement of uh proof of concept that JP Morgan is launching with a bunch of providers and and layer zero on Axel and they're doing an experiment with sort of permissioned blockchains and moving real assets from one place to another and if you look at the proof of concept in detail it's a JP Morgan tokenization platform on a JP Morgan chain with a JP Morgan coin on a JP Morgan platform to JP like like honestly like I think this is actually the importance of pushing and promoting decentralized alternatives to this as a way of buttressing against the incumbent reaction and we also have uh a journey ahead of educating Regulators to prevent them from doing the easy thing and enshrining the JP Morgan coins of this world as the only possible alternative and I honestly like I firmly believe that even like all of The Regulators in the world could ban D and people would still use it but they can make using it a lot harder unnecessarily uh so I think yeah platforms like centrifuge I think I are worth championing in this fight because that's actually who we are up against rather than within you know liquidy versus die or something like this I think all of these coins are standing ground against the JP Morgan coins not to I'm sure the people of JP Morgan are lovely like not to single them out specifically but yeah right thank you for this Martin you wanted to ask maybe maybe I can say something to the real world asset things you know for me it's it's like it's just about quality we as a if you look at collaterals token or assets as a collateral for a stable coin like curve usdc you want to have the best quality and real world assets it's uh it's not the the the issue it's just a metric of quality of what you look at at at the end of course some of it is just maybe it's not suited for as Cal for us but there other tokens have quality issues and you have to compromise anyway at some level because otherwise you make it like liquid and then okay you just take eth and then it's yeah that's the only way how to do it basically otherwise you add risk anyway if you onboard new assets and then it's just a question how which risk you take and which not and the other thing is what I think it's very interesting as as you said is that if you look ston are very much trust SP at the end you know if you have a dpeg somehow then it's a it's not an issue it's also trust issue and a liquidity issue too basically but if you have a transparent system system where you see where the risk sits it's much easier to communicate that and say it's like a neutral way to say the risk is that's that's that's what's going what's happening now so look at this and people will decide okay Ah that's fine and if you look at the dpack of usdc this was like the main issue it was happening over weekend and then the trust has just been gone basically because it's not transparent and if I think if systems are built transparent that you see what's going on it helps like everyone basically yeah yeah I do I do resonate a lot with with some of these points because as a as a citizen of Poland um I have a big appetite to be exposed to dollars as opposed to or crypto dollars Euro dollars whatever you want to call call them or Global dollars maybe as opposed to being exposed to the native currency of Poland which is which is okay if you compare it to Turkish lra for example but it's not okay if you compare it to Euro or dollars or some other big um currencies in the world so definitely personally for me that is also very important to have um a suit of assets to choose from whether I want to be exposed more to decentralized Collateral centralized collateral rwas us treasuries I just want to have the choice and I think that this is something that we can all agree here that we are building the ability for people to use in this space to have a a choice if it comes to the the assets that they want to keep their money in and building onto that let's get into yield which is an interesting topic because some of the biggest stable coins currently do not pay it at all so maybe it's not necessary to be paying it out to the users maybe it is um would love to get some of your thoughts on this maybe starting with CID CID if you could just give us one one minute intro to why there is so such a big push on RW this year how this relates to yields and Def native yields as well what's the context here yeah I guess I mean yeah the main context is being in a bare market and defi yields being sort of non-existent obviously um and being in a high interest rate environment when it comes to things like yeah US Treasury yield being the big one um and so as a comparison if you have onchain Capital say you have a lot of usdc um you're not making anything on that you're not making anything on your die um and in comparison to something like US Treasury yield which is uh you know also ultimately only keeping you up with inflation globally and so even that is really just a a stepping stone because once you get US Treasury year old you're thinking okay actually I'm I'm actually just kind of keeping my value here um and so you're looking in a high interest rate environment that we're in today you're looking for yield you're really searching for it um and you're not finding that within defi the way that we used to before and so that's why real world assets are becoming much more important part of the picture um and particularly for stable coins as well um and Runa mentioned it earlier on the panel uh you need to be able to start to see something like d as maybe your savings account and I think that's a really good comparison where you're actually be able to make some sort of yield on it that's keeping up at the very least with inflation um the inflation that you're feeling like in terms of your purchasing power I would I would Frame It That Way um and so yeah I think realwood assets coming into the picture is really just because of this environment we're in but I think they're also going to stay a part of the picture because obviously we going to continue going through cycle after cycle and they're always going to be an important part of maintaining that stability but on so I think the yield aspect speaks to the uniqueness of stable coins as a new type of financial primitive unlike other things that have existed in the past ER we think of it like at Steakhouse we think of it in terms of convenience yield PLUS Financial yield which speaks to the Dual nature of St stable coins as a payment Rail and as a sort of money market fund type of thing and you can very quickly see that I mean usdt might get away with paying a zero yield forever in fact people likely pay a negative yield to Mint or swap into it which speaks to the incredible convenience yield that holders of usdt have just by holding it and er yield bringing yields on board is an important way of bringing to life this money market aspect as a differentiate you know the die savings rate I can't remember it was like 5 point something the weighted average die savings rate is maybe closer to like 1 or 2% considering the number of people that have locked into the contract ER and I think this gives us a useful way of quantifying how useful is a unit of a stable coin as a unit of payment versus uh money market fund type of thing and it also gives an additional dimension of competition to fight against to fight against other stable coins with Sam what's the approach of of you guys if it comes to yield also coming into V2 yeah know it's a good question I think as a ethos and the team as a whole we believe just like how ad mentioned you know having a dollar savings account for die we believe there should be a Crypton native dollar savings account and our approach to that is pretty much having the yield for v2 in the sense of the staked eth being the collateral that's back in the stable coin and finding way in which we can potentially distribute that yield towards the stakers of that particular stable coin now I think more than just that yield my personal belief is that that particular stable coin once it has that yield as well once it's yield bearing it should also be able to be fungible in the way that you can use it as collateral across many different places within defi but also potentially in the real world what I mean by that is maybe integrating with debit credit cards around the world world to to have it being used as as as a means of transactional um in a transactional way as well and yeah I think it's it's all about the choice of a particular user right if you if you in my opinion there in for stable coins you have four or five things that you need to choose from right one is obviously the counterparty risk that you take on when you take that stable coin who's the custodian behind that particular stable coin what's your risk appetite there um you also have the collateral risk that is backing that particular staple coin that you should think about as well and in that case you know for us we will be that that we will serve that segment if you want a completely decentralized stable coin however we also have that risk in the sense that there is a staking LST that we'll choose and that particular we will take that risk on when it comes to that right um it's it's it's an open market at the end of the day it's and it's dependent on the user as to what they value more is it convenience is it collateral risk or is it Whatever It Is so yeah Martin what's the approach on your end how do you look at this it's somehow a different question because I don't curve is like of course you can earn yield you take Min curve you see or you buy it and you put it in a pool and then you go get curve token but it's not that it's not a y bearing asset or I don't think it will be at some point basically because for us it's more like you know if you look at liquidity is like it's our now as we have have a curve USD it's like the blood of curve basically so our our goals is to make it like one of the goals to make it is like very stable basically that's one of the main goals because our founder in a way myself I think keeping the pack is also very important basically and if you can't keep the P then yeah it's not a stable coin somehow that's that's somehow a very technical how goal basically and I think we try just to make the best technology in the background that we can achieve this so that that's and then if you achieve this I guess people will use this we will get more adoption and the yell it's you can do it but it's not easy you have to know how to do it basically next topic is well management of the reserve and that is super broad but maybe just to have a little mental model for it Adrian if you could just give us some insight on how you approach the composition of Reserve when you work with clients with stable coins um how much of that is decentralized assets usually how much of that is rwas or other types of collateral and what are the variables here that you have have to keep in mind to have just a healthy Reserve long-term my my colleague Seb is uh pioneered a lot of the thinking that Behind These recommendations that we've made to maker token holders the maker th has actually this unique advantage that it's both a dollar stable coin that has dollar Reserve assets behind it but it's also a CDP engine that you can use to take leverage against crypto collateral and so the way that we roughly think about it like a rough way of thinking about is that the CDP part of it sort of balances itself out right like people mint die with e or Bitcoin or whatever and then new die gets created and then if they pay off their debts that die gets destroyed so effectively the maturity is more or less matched let's say the difficulty comes when there's incremental demand over the amount of Leverage which means that people are looking for die just to hold it and they don't necessarily want to take leverage on it which led to the introduction of the PSM as a way to R recharge the Peg and led to the increase of usdc reserves behind the I and then the tricky bit here is to understand how much risk you can take on the usdc reserves in order to earn a return and to be clear that return is there to do things such as pay the die savings rate or accumulate in the Surplus to buffer against any potential losses so it's not about maximizing profit because it's a capitals Enterprise but it's because it's a crucial part of the incentive system of the smart contracts uh and the interesting thing here is that D is obviously on chain so you can look at what people do with their die and the interesting thing and Stakehouse has a dashboard for this on June called where is my stable coin where we classify where each of the stable coins are being held you know whether it's in a landing engine or in a Ci or whatever and it turns out that D and usdc and usdt are large part of them are just being held so you can do uh draw down analysis that's usually a finger in the wind in trafi for Bank Management in terms of of assessing liquidity risk which is where you look at what is the maximum am maximum amount of redemptions you've experienced over the past n days to see how much duration risk you can take on the asset side and understand how much exposure you can take there re it's it's a with the reasonable expectation that the future will kind of look like the past obviously which is that's the risk right uh but the benefit of die is that you can see this behavior on chain and I think that leads to the that early work from Seb was what led him to the conclusion that in particular after the sort of inroduction stress test of the Terra collapse despite that sort of deflation of Dy Supply there was an enormous amount of Dy that was just chilling just sitting there and on that basis you know we could conclude that we could recommend to token holders that you could stretch the duration exposure of the usdc and then sell the USC which is basically like reward free risk and invested in treasuries which at least you get some re you know reward for the for the risk of being exposed to the Dollar City diving deeper into diversification the composition of of Reserve what are people and projects choosing right now if it comes to rwa is it just us treasury bills or is it is it different asset classes or how how does that landscape look like right now in D5 I think treasury bills is like the natural next step into real assets from just being a cdb CDP uh stable coin or uh only having Crypt native assets because they're the closest that you can get to something that's risk-free um so it's the lowest risk real world asset that you can step into um and it is highly liquid and I think that's actually extremely important for these stable coins is that you want to be able to get in and out of these positions rather quickly and so when you're thinking about diversifying you know what the stable coins collateral you might have a piece of it in you know longer term types of assets um but you want to be able to have quite a large chunk in something that has a deep and liquid Market where if you had to sell a large portion of it it wouldn't impact the price that much and you as a stable coin could go back into usdc extremely quickly um and that's what treasuries allow these stable coins to do um from there they can start diversifying into other types of red assets with much longer time Horizons and I think that's also an important piece of like having a diversified portfolio and then you get to the largest or the the last part of the risk uh curve which would then be like Crypton native assets that might might have much higher yields uh and also might be much more aligned in terms of like the ethos of the space of having something that's decentralized Crypton native actually supporting your native ecosystem these are all things that I think stable coins also consider um and I think yes treasuries are sort of the first step into remote Assets in terms of like yeah getting into that larger picture Sam I think it's a good time to talk about this as you guys just opened to new types of collateral apart from native eth in V1 so what's the context behind that switch why do you want to have also lsds perhaps in V2 What's the hypothesis behind it um one of the reasons is because we want to be more than just a borrowing protocol for v2 I think that's one big reason because the product aims to be much more than that another thing also is by have we it's a it's a thing that like essentially market research that we've done have SE has shown that the community pretty much wants yield bearing collateral when it comes to stable coins and uh the market has talked with the tvl in various protocols and how a lot of protocols have gotten adoption but also our general Community sentiment has also been that yield bearing collateral that can that is Crypton native that can be used across many different prices in defi is something that we would like so I think that's one of the reasons we we we feel like decentralization is not enough for a lot of people to hold a particular stable coin and essentially there needs to be another carrot that that that people need to care about rather than only decentralization um and that's one of the reasons for us as well one when building V2 maybe compromising a little bit on the decentralization if we can instead of just having vanilla eth having an an LST uh but still having probably one of the more stable options out there in the space compared to what what other protocols might have done um so I think it it boils down to that really but there's also as I mentioned we we do want to other than the stable coin and the borrowing aspect of the new product we are also planning to build um a leverage side to the to the equation and for that to to work within the within the puzzle that we have as well um getting a yield bearing uh collateral asset makes sense Martin what's the approach to the composition of assets if it comes to CRV USD you guys started with TR eth as I remember now the suit is way broader you have different types of lsds also corupt Bitcoin if I'm not mistaken so what's the benefits and and drawbacks of that kind of a design I think we we looking for the highest quality and the quality for a decentralized project one of the metrics is of course like decentralization so if eth is like the yeah it's the most decentralized asset so it's for for my it's like the best asset you can have basically because it's like the native asset of the chain so and if if you look at all collaterals it's it's the question that's one thing we need quality but everyone needs quality basically and then what we also need is like we need a deep liquid Market because how the protocol works it uses the underlying uh amm to to make the soft liquation and so you need quite some liquidity so it needs a lot of liquidity in the OR curve itself needs liquidity to onboard asset so is are really so if you you want to be collateral for C usdc then you need to we need to have pools who have some enough deepness that we can onboard you so this is much more it's not thing but yeah let me quickly check the time because I can't see minutes okay we have four minutes can't talk perfect so one more Super interesting topic security and I'd like to start with you Adrian what do you do if a stable coin deegs and how do we Define a deeg event in the first place should we use um the just Market data to assess the historical performance of stable coins should we look at it in in a different way and if so what do you do if a if a stable coin deegs well there's two there's two types of dpeg right like one is the exchange rate of a stable coin against the reference asset that it's tracking this is an indication of what the market expects the stable coin can be redeemed for so it's a very good signal of what people believe the stable coin how how solent the stable coin really is so it's obviously a serious issue so you can expect some volatility around the peg I think that's generally fine but if you have a sustained more than say 1% deviation on an ongoing basis it's not really a stable coin and that and it shows that there's an underlying issue the more important Peg to my mind is the primary Market peg in other words are you able to redeem are you able to close out the position of the stable coin and redeem it for the underlying asset or dollar um and I mean in the event of a so we saw an interesting case where this failed with USD r or RUSD or something like this which was backed by like IL liquid real estate or something U like the writing was kind of on the wall for this but they experienced the bank run and were essentially unable to meet the redemptions and so I would classify this as a terminal Peg like once you are unable to meet this liquidity like you're done like you you know usdc maybe messed it up with the weekend thing with the svb situation but all throughout we're able to guarantee Redemption one to one for Fiat so never really really deec let's say only undermined some of the confidence in their asset um so I think I mean once you have like a serious teg you're done like you know find a lawyer and then if you have something less serious serious I suppose it helps to have like assets that are very liquid and that you're able to redeem very quickly to to meet those obligations cassid so how the liquidity aspect Taps into that if you are uh if you have a very liquid types of Assets in the reserve how does it help and how does it work with our waas yeah I guess this is back to that treasury's example like I think it is really comes down to user expectations and if they want to redeem this asset said that they believe that there is actually something that is like a dollar backing this dollar back stable coin and so being able to have a large chunk of what the collateral is H in a super liquid asset like us treasuries enables you to actually meet the demand that might come in and it I mean I guess the the riskiest things for dep pegging are the ones that happen extremely quickly right and so that's where the liquidity is the most important is that you're actually able to immediately execute on you know redeeming this collateral basically but we have a big job ahead of sort of educating on these nuances because stable coins are so new and so specific you know the the bank for international settlements came out with a report recently will the real stable coin please stand up where they looked at coin gecko data some report they looked at coin gecko data and concluded that there were no stable coins because they all trade a little bit around the par uh which which shows how far actually you know it's nice that we talk to each other about this but we need to be talking to the lizard people and to the feds to explain to them that actually you know the primary Peg is actually what matters you need the Redemption and all this stuff because these narratives otherwise get out of hand run away and then people believe that stable coins aren't stable if they trade at 99.99999 you know Mar if it comes to CRVs USD the design is super complicated but if you could just give us 30 seconds um intro to how the that's yeah I I can talk I can say what shortly what's the Innovation is basically there what Mar he did explain it itself so the beauty of this is that it's not he fixed the upack basically so many s coins before design had had like an upack in some situations and the thing he did is like he his the system is minting curve USD like Fiat basically and it just puts it on the market so it builds up a buffer of like coins c USD who is owned by the protocol basically and so it's a you can there are limits now on this on this part but in fact you could just limit print endless as long as the the it's the upack is there basically so we assume there's a long time of a upack so you have a huge stash of curve usds owned by by the protocol and then Market change you have like a slightly deepack what then you do you burn the curve USD so you take but back Supply basically the supply shrinks so it should be should there should be an outpack but at certain point all the stash you have is like gone because you all burned it and at this point if you if we still have a a down pack but then we do we change the rate of the landing market so the landing Market is going the rate of Landing Market is going uh down no more it's going down that you can that it's more cheap to generate curve USD basically so the core thing is that we fix like the upack and it's not the idea itself it's relatively simple but technically it's not so easy that's I guess the main thing so you have a can keep a very narrow narrow Peg on the up Peg and we fix it over the rate on the down Peg and uh yeah it's just very beautiful as an engineer I have to say it's like yeah it's very nice thing all right everybody I think we have just run out of time so thank you so much for your time and attention thank you to the fellow panelists and see you after afterwards at the venue