PANEL: Regulating Stablecoins and Tokenised Assets

hi everyone thank you for coming to our panel there's more people here than there so maybe I'll do like this um my name is Marina and I'm leading the European crypto initiative which is a nonprofit Association based in Brussels and for the last four years we have been in the MAA negotiations anti-money laundering and other rules that have been finalized within the European commission first round and I'm really really happy to be able to moderate this panel today with uh my guests and I will start with uh you know just calling your name but I would like to ask you to introduce yourself I think you would do that best and maybe we can start with Xavier yes hello everyone um so on so my name is Xavier visier and I've been mostly working with the public sector with the public institution that are looking into the space and trying to see what they should do toward this um and as we briefly discussed before maybe as as starting point is like they have been hesitating for the last years if they should regulate it if they should forbid it at all and and if they should create their own infrastructure so I think that's part of the problems have been helping them to to think about I yeah thank you very much so my name is uh Eli Cohen or Ellie Cohen in Brussels As You Wish uh so I'm the general counsel at centrifuge centrifuge is a Tok oranization securitization platform it's an open- Source protocol that allows issuers to create their own pools of tokenized assets uh and we have launched originally 2020 with our first pools opening in 2021 about about 290 million right now tvl so it's one of the oldest sort of tokenization platforms which I'll talk more about later I'm sure thank you very much and yon yeah hi I'm yon Alon I'm uh co-founder of monium monium is the company that uh was the first to get a license to issue e-money tokens in Europe we um got that before MAA was a think and uh more than a year ago we integrated our solution with the sepa system so our customer customers basically get web3 uh uh ibonds so you can go in and out of uh web 3 uh as you wish and connect it to the infinite liquidity of the banking system great so before you start we start I have questions for you uh if you might help us set the tone so we know we don't bother you with the discussion uh how many of you are from Europe can you raise your hands great how many of you have read uh MAA in a part that regulates stable coins okay wow amazing okay we can go into pre deep discussions so for those who haven't read that part I think it's very important to know that in a way MAA does regulate the issuance of stable coins we do have two different types the E money tokens and asset reference tokens um but what is also interesting in Mika is that it has one specific part that says that decentralized projects might be excluded from Mika so this is just to set the tone but I would give uh the floor to yon so yon is working on a stable coin for a really really long time they were compliant under the e-money regulation that was something that existed uh sorry directive before before Mika and how did Mika change your situation or how like what it brought what is the difference between what existed before yeah for us then as Marana said um we got the e-money license to issue e- money tokens and it means that there's a lot of concerns for Consumer Protection uh like how you save card underlying assets for example you have to have it in segregated accounts uh the way you know how in what assets are you allowed to um Safeguard it on behalf of the customer um and you have to you know issue and redeem out power and so on so um we got this license in 2019 after Consulting with various uh jurisdictions in Europe but what Mika does is basically saying well if you want to issue a a Fiat on chain you have to be uh e-money issuer and your system your platform just has to comply and support that and then mik says some other things uh adding some additional requirements but you know uh the core of MAA for e-money tokens is that you have to be a e-money uh issuer so how much did it change not really much um uh some uh people um complain that there's a lot of um you know there it's a burden you have to comply it it takes uh you have to have resources you have to be you have to have extra um uh you have to have your own equity in addition to uh backing the the uh stable coin if you will or Eon token 100% you need more uh you have to be audited by you regulated on a regular basis you have to comply with kyc you have to comply with AML and all all of those things it's a lot of work um uh but we thought you know inevitably everyone needs to be compliant if they want to do to issue Fiat on chain because in my mind uh and uh my co-founders then Fiat has always been and will probably always be uh a legal thing and if you want to basically service this market then it's important that you have just regular money like the Euro it has to be regulated uh in a similar way it's called the um singleness of money it doesn't matter if if your euro is in on a mobile wallet or a debit card or a token it's just a Euro and that is our philosophy from the very beginning it's just a Euro uh we don't like the term stable coin we just use the term Fiat on chain so it hasn't changed that much uh but I could also go into if you like at the later stage um the additions that I I think we should uh work on going forward thank you so much um Savia do you have any comments on that and maybe specifically of what do we see Mika brought so as you know end of June Mika became applicable in this part of stable coin so what have we seen online of you know what were the reactions but also what was how how the community reacted and maybe a comment from your side what do you think MAA brought is it useful are you critical certain points or what's your opinion in General on that so I'm not sure I can talk about how all the community react and um what what we can see on is the fact that there is a high barrier to run three for getting all uh this compliance we can see that there is a choice for actors of like either going more decentralized because it's a huge exemption or on the contrary trying to be fully compliant and that's kind of splitting a little bit the the the choices um and also there's a lot of ambiguity you hav dive too much into it but I I understood that between the eony license and Mika there is ambiguities for actors that are going to hold the token on behalf of someone else are they going to have to be a Casp like there's a lot of um lines that haven't been clearly drawn so it's bringing a bit of stress of all the other actors around it from what I understood so it's a welcome Clarity but probably something has not finished for but yeah so the result of what we have seen in the last week was we have two actors now that have the MAA license as you know C General Forge and um Circle how is the ecosystem going to look in the future Yun what do what did Mika bring and is there a comment that any one of the panelists have on the general Global regulation and how you see that in the future yeah so before last Sunday a week ago uh we we had um more or less three companies in Europe that were M compliant and now since M came into effect last Sunday we have seen two uh players coming into the market uh sausage General gener uh uh and circle how is it going to change the market well it remains to be seen but obviously uh this is going mainstream uh in the end of the day uh this is a this is a fundamental layer for defi to have Fiat on chain um I think it's also going to because of regulatory Clarity and people understand now that you know this is um this is uh the future uh and and then we will see more mainstream adoption the market will uh grow so if you think about it's very interesting to think about the European market or the Euro Market the the the Euro Market or the European market is has recular Clarity but we have nonone uh unicorns uh serving this Market the US uh they have no regulatory Clarity but they have two unicorns and one of them is entering uh Europe now so I think that's very interesting what I think will happen is that uh the euro is going to pick up uh volume market share H today uh uh Euro denominated stable coins are only about 0.3% of the stable coin Market it's nothing basically it's hardly existing uh and hopefully we will just see this Market grow uh as it it's going to be used in more and more uh you know um uh Financial uh activity and because it's a it's a fundamental layer when you tokenize assets like real world assets like stocks and bonds and so and so on then you will have to exchange it for you know faton chain so I think we will see the Euro Market uh growing as a result of this um the US dollar market uh the US dollar is is uh the reserve currency of the world it it will always be important this technology is global in its nature so there will always be um advantage of having the US dollar uh but Europe under maika and under the Imon license as well is well equipped to basically issue um e-money tokens for other currencies as well and we know from uh history that Europe has served uh US Dollars uh when it was not possible to do so in out of us so I would think if the my friends from the US won't uh get their act together and and bring uh uh regulatory Clarity for stable coins over there then you know there's an opportunity to basically service the US dollar out of Europe yeah yeah that's that's a great point I it's a great historical analogy which and one which I completely agree with so but I think the US will get its act together as far as stable coins are concerned is one of the very few things uh in the Congress at the moment that there's actually real bipartisan support for and I do think there will be a stable coin Bill stablecoin law in the US quite soon um probably next year uh and that's going to change the picture again so probably what's going to happen is that there's going to be a Fed regulated stable coin and a m regulated stable coin and they're not going to be the same stable coin so circle's going to issue a Fed regulated usdc and have a m regulated usdc and they're going to be separate tokens because they're not going to want to be in a position to have to have reg two Regulators supervising the same issuances it's just too much complication from a compliance standpoint and the historical analogy as you said is right there because in the bond markets in the 7s you had the euro dollar Bond bonds and you had the US dollar bonds and for the US market they were often the same Bond issuers but they had to do two different issuances in the two different markets so that they didn't have to comply with both sets of rules at the same time which nobody likes to have to do so I think you're going to see kind of a fragmentation of the two biggest markets uh at least at least for the US dollar stable coins which is not going to be great and not going to be super helpful for the ecosystem generally but U I don't think I see this coordinating with uh with EU unfortunately if I can add to this I think um you know the competition between Regulators is going to apply so I hope at least that uh us Regulators uh Asian regulators and European Regulators they will simply uh compete to provide a sensible regulation so we will see changes going forward and in the end of the day uh it matters to have um you know uh sensible regulation for stable coins because stable coins or Eon tokens are Global in nature and and you have to basically um make sure that it is uh competitive to other uh areas yeah I mean rather than competition I would prefer to see coordination but that that's that's very far few and far between examples of that and any kind of trafi Industries where the financial Regulators actually coordinate amongst themselves so I don't I don't think crypto is going to be the exception I think that's a important point that you mentioned before are we in 5 to 10 years going to have stable coins regulated globally and each jurisdiction having their own regulation and that means that is each issuer having a specific product for each jurisdiction that they want to be operated in if they want to be compliant yeah I mean certainly the big markets I mean hopefully you'll get smaller markets like Singapore maybe or or Hong Kong that allow for different types of equivalence regimes for M regulated stable coins or fed regulated stable coins but certainly among the big markets I suspect that there will be different regulations do you have any comments on standardization or coordination um no but as you said I think we know historically like the financial industry is really bad at U any form of coordination standards in particular and even technical standard is a difficult thing I I understand that in the end it's a question of like the biggest actor that at some point is the de facto standard and that works for everyone but it's very difficult to to get everyone and especially Regulators but also it touch a lot of aspect of a particular country so it's very difficult for instance from a pure legal point of view it's very difficult to Just Adjust Frameworks between countries in Europe we are trying to do that for the last 50 years and because the laws are so based on how we see what what it means to to have property for instance we don't have the same notion what needs to own something between the French system the German system the UK system which is not L much a concern in Europe anymore and because of that it's very difficult to harmonize all this so it makes sense that for ston it would be difficult at the same time we are confronted with I think that's all the interesting reason to be in this industry is like we are confronted with a state where we have the technology that makes it perfectly work seamlessly wasn't the case before also like you couldn't carry cash and easily make trade over the word so so easily there was some other friction so now that we have this infrastructure I'm curious about in the long run if it won't go in that direction and and the the par is like public actors starting to think okay we may need to create some and the the main um common standard common infrastructures and the main discussion of the last uh two decades was just one standard that's called ISO 222 which is a really basic standard just say says when you make a message between two financial institution what kind of high level format it used to send a message and it's really basic and it took 20 years to to get to a level where it's almost everywhere adopted so I'm I'm starting to feel like because we have this infrastructure will push to toward okay we need to add more and more layer of uh coordination and paths will be harmonized a little bit the framework but it will take really decades for for sure which is good I will have work to do so it's good and on that it's very interesting that uh before the elections in the European Union we had this idea of having a financial Market Union which would actually bring you know something that would be a little bit more unified Financial Market in the in the EU but according to the results of the elections that will most likely not happen in the next 5 years so as you know we had elections recently we have a new Parliament we'll have a new commiss there's still discussing who is going to have in way uh what function and it's going to be very important for us to follow at least in the EU to see what's going to be the topics that they're going to regulate in the next 5 years so I would like to go to the next topic which is the real war assets and thinking about the financial real war assets and thinking about the existing Financial regulations that we already have globally so Eli would you like to comment on do we need specific regulation for real D assets can we just use the existing ones how is blockchain bringing something unique within you know what we have done before the business models Etc yeah it's a great question um I mean it's yes and it's no I'll explain a bit but maybe just before I start with that let's since we've been talking about stable coins let's think a little bit about how important stable coins are for the real world asset set protocols and the link between the stable coins and the rwa if you don't have stable coins you can't do a proper onchain settlement of an rwa token right you can't do a delivery versus payment actual onchain settlement so there's a lot of tokenization platforms that don't use stable coins and they have a settlement in Fiat but that's not going to be a delivery versus payment it's going to add a lot of risk to separate the cash leg from the Securities leg of the transaction and so that's not ideal and that's not something that you want to work towards in the in the crypto space where we're trying to make everything more efficient and more and more and and reduce the risk right less risk so stable coins are critical and and the more if the stable coin Market starts to fragment that's going to make things more difficult for the development of the tokenization and the rwa protocols so which I hope doesn't happen but it's probably looking like it's going to be likely anyway to talk a little bit about rwa and centrifuge so centrifuge is an open- Source protocol it's a horizontal model where issuers can come from any jurisdiction uh and issue different types of Securities tokens or even non-securities uh offerings uh under a range of different jurisdictions and range of different laws and Regulatory structures so from that standpoint for centrifuge it's fairly agnostic about the regulatory structure and the regulatory structures exist today so we've been operating as I said since 2021 with our first pools those were asset back securities issued under regulation D regulation s with Delaware llc's so a particular type of asset back security Bond offerings uh which are fairly common in the traditional financial markets we've now got a different type of platform that's much more flexible and we've launched investment funds regulated investment funds that are tokenized on the platform as well which is a different type of structure and again those structures exist today uh in the current regulation so you can operate within the current regulation but you can't really make a proper tokenization platform unless there are some changes I mean one of the key changes that we've been working on is the using blockchain as the single source of Truth so there's a number of different types of Securities uh that require share Registries or transfer agents uh or share registar and they don't use blockchain they can't use blockchain the regulatory requirements and the compliance requirements that they operate under don't allow them to use the blockchain now if they could use blockchain then that could mean that the tokens themselves are the actual ownership instead of something in an Excel spreadsheet at a fund administrator's uh uh database so it's it's really important that those developments are are continue and that The Regulators adapt some of the current existing regulations to allow for the use of blockchain uh share registry is just one example but there's a number of other types of examples where you would want a real proof of ownership um a real proof under the laws of the countries it's not so much the regulatory laws but the company's laws themselves where the company's law says that the shares uh you know the blockchain based Shares are have uh the actual ownership now there's a number of different regimes in lonstein being the first one who did that but it's not fully adopted yet and so until that's fully adopted the rwa protocols are going to be of less value and less efficient than they could be on on this I think it's a very important thing to understand about tokenized asset is at the moment we use the general term of tokenized asset orwa and we are talking legally of different things and I think it's difficult to comprehend in the crypto ecosystem because we are used to have really simple product in a sense that have a clear um you know like it's its own value in a sense like every crypto and so on and here even it's already exist every on Securities Law it's not so obvious what who owns really what and by owning a title what you reown um in the end and here we have two levels of of question which is by owning the token do you really own the title and by owning the title where do you really have uh the right on so for instance if it's a a company if I have the type this share of the company do I really have a share or I just have the right on the dividend it's a different thing and depending on the country it's totally different the the lws and that forces all the real world assets uh companies have I've looked at over the last months I've looked at legal documentation of many of them and you can see that there is a lot of different Montage like not two projects have the same ideas so one would create a fund that will own some some of different assets and what you own by owning the token is a share of that fund but sometime by owning the token you just have the right to say that at some point you can claim the the the the benefit from the fund but you don't really own the share of the fund so basically it's different level of indirection between you and what you're supposed to really own and AD a bit obscure even I think it's missing a vocabulary that's clear to really distinguish what I'm owning by owning the token and it's really important because then you were talking about DVP and if we want to build all the composability that we see in defi in with toonize asset we need to clarify this these different level because then it's a question of what's the liquidity of the token versus the ultimate value if there is a problem can I redeem it easily and get get back um cash and so on so that's totally needs to be uh clarified but the problem is there is no um easy way to do it because it's very different lws very different type of assets and so on and we just use the same technical thing that's easy to use and that's simple so that probably will be a need of clarifying big categories so we can have a sense of the different type of risk we're having with the link between the token and the ultimate value which is not even the asset itself so following the debate we had before um is code law and what it means in a way I think especially in the world war as again is it true what is on a code or is it true on what a judge would interpret in if the case would be you know brought to court and I would say that might be uh more important to look at it from the legal perspective at least later uh on when we have this like you know clear clearly defined but but just one thing on this is like there is practical aspect and there is legal aspect is like the same for securitization like if you put as collateral your house uh when you're having a loan it works well if the banks knows that for sure they can easily get your house and sell it in case of of a problem so it's like does and we can say that code is low in and actually the original meaning of this is to say if the code does something in the end it's going to be the way that impos to anyone as the first uh thing so exed yeah it's going to be executed this way in in the first uh process and then the question is after is there a way to unfold all the problem that it could be and obvious that in real world asset there will always be a secondary way of unwinding things which will be more painful and even this is something that at the moment hasn't touched because we haven't had enough problem yet but we need to see how we unwind the problem of like mismatch between the token ownership and the actual asset ownership and how that will be soled and we'll need to make this process more efficient that they are currently because if we make it more efficient when it works but when it doesn't work it's even more complex than it is currently I'm not sure we're gaining a lot and that's something that hasn't even been touched yet yeah I I mean I would say code is law until it's not so you know it's you in the previous discussion before our panel they talked a little bit about the Celsius and how the celsus smart contracts operated but you can see right now there are there's the the bankruptcy court who's now looking at the Celsius uh you know account holders and clawing back some of the transactions that they were made that they made on the blockchain under the the bankruptcy rule so if you make a transfer within a certain period of time prior to a bankruptcy that can all get clawed back by the bankruptcy trustee and they're now doing that for Celsius where there's blockchain transactions that were confirmed uh under the blockchain and supposed to be you know not uh you know supposed to be final but they're not final because you've got a bankruptcy court saying no you have to look at the automatics St you have to look at the provisions prior to bankruptcy and we're going to claw back all of those transactions and void them so smart contract yes but there's a court who's now saying the smart contract transactions can be voided so so in the way how Regulators think they always look into the substance and not how we name things so they would go and say oh this looks legally like this type of asset so I don't really care what you write in your white papers or in your promotional material uh so it's going to be pretty interesting looking into that we are in Brussels we're hosting ECC this year in Brussels and of course stable Summit as well and there's been a lot of developments in The Last 5 Years regarding blockchain and crypto assets there's another thing that we want to introduce you to not only MAA but there has been a pilot regime which is called the DT pilot regime that has been finalized as well and is now applicable and the idea is to have a regime like a Sandbox for Securities on blockchain that would not be as strict as the one we have in regulated Financial in way regulation that does not have this specific regime but um I'll give it maybe to svia to start what is the outcome of this until now yes so basically the pilot regime tackles the problem you mentioned of at the moment by law you force for certain uh type of asset to have a specific actors that holds the register and they they have to use some yeah processes Technologies and so on and and it's difficult to issue certain types of assets on chain because you you you cannot so that's why we have this indirection and you are creating a layer on top to allow yourself to toonize the the upper layer the the pilot regime the idea was to elevate some of the r rules in Europe particularly one rule that would force you for certain type of asset to use uh Central Securities depository and and and to have this actor managing your your your your assets so far and there has been a report a few a few weeks ago that showed that it hasn't picked up as much as was hoped so it's been the challenge with all these sunbox because when you once you put a lot of rules around the sunbox you don't want to make it to to um to like to remove all the regulation that existed before all of a sudden so you need to put a lot of boundaries and that ends up with really few actors entering the space particularly because this regulation was mostly designed for existing actors like Banks to be able to do it and banks have a lot of internal processes they have a lot of uh risk management and so on that make them not the best actor to do it what's interesting is we have seen and we're going to talk about it this week doing um an event on tokenization is the we have seen infrastructures like the CSD uh creating U projects using onchain Securities without using the pilot regim so it's a bit like the different natural find this way right so it's like The Regulators are hoping that to attract some actors but in the end probably targeting the bank is the hardest because they are the actors that are the most control and and the L prone to act so I feel like what we are seeing positive is the re World asset working with more a startup approach like I think you have and on the other side infrastructures also looking at it because they want to prepare what everyone feels is going to be the next type of infrastructures and they don't even need this pilot regime because they already the ones that are have the register I I think the sandbox regimes are can be very helpful but we've seen plenty of examples where they've been mostly just useless so it really depends on whether The Regulators are going to look at the things in the sandbox and adapt the rules based on what they see and what the actors do the Singapore sandbox prior to the payment services act that in 2019 and 2020 where project guardian originally started was a very useful exercise the one in Hong Kong was a complete waste of time so you know it really depends on what The Regulators really think about the sandboxes are they doing it really to learn about the process and and adapt their rules are they really enough flexible enough to do that I hope so I mean I certainly hope that that we if the if there could be a Securities token regime in the EU which is different than the regular Securities laws regime that would be a fantastic development obviously I think one comment that projects usually had mostly bigger institutions where we are not sure if this sandbox is going to last for longer than 3 years years so we got a letter from the former commissioner saying alluding to the fact that it might stay uh in in practice like in longer than than 3 years so that might be a good sign but still there there are other problems that we have with it for sure for the last set of questions I think I would really like your opinions on a little bit more of a general uh you know assessment bad and good things about the whole um you know kind of connection between stable coins potential cbdcs potentially a digital Euro real D assets what kind of revolution is happening and you know how are you going to be a part of it yeah um I think in general I think it's important uh for Regulators to maintain the basic rule that has been guiding uh EU policy for a long time which is basically saying that uh if you have the same activity same risk you should have the same regulation that's very important um we are seeing very interesting development under maika um there is a very interesting development in Europe for real world assets we are supporting a lot of those uh projects in Europe really interesting but in the end of the day I think it's just important to maintain this basic principle you don't need to invent new regulations for uh everything even if you have new technology um you know just like the eone legislation is more than 20 years old um it was supposed to be technically neutral and that is important then you have to basically make sure that your technology is supporting the law that is important now going forward you mentioned uh uh cbtc where that is not the topic of this however but I think for that for cbdc the the digital Euro which is the European Central Bank saying basically well we're going to issue uh uh retail cbdc I think that's really interesting for me uh as a co-founder of a company in Europe which is issuing you know issued the first digital Euro uh on chain I think it's really interesting that we are we have a central bank saying uh well we we we're going to issue a digital Euro we're going to regulate you uh we're going to compete with you and we're going to oversee your functionality so I think think uh you know uh I think it's important for uh the sector the participant to have a very honest uh debate and discussions with Regulators policy makers Central bankers and so on because this is new to many of us but in the end of the day I think it's really important to have the end um uh end goal in mind which is basically what is the purpose of this it's basically trying to make you know Finance in this case more efficient make it better and more you know uh Fair uh so I'm optimistic uh it has been a a pleasure to speak to uh policymakers in Brussels uh they are willing to listen they're willing to basically change things that you know you say uh well I don't think this is working and then listen that's a good thing I think that's more than we see in some other jurisdictions yes yeah absolutely that's true uh I mean I think we're really just at the very beginning of this process I mean Mika implementation is just starting now there'll be a m 2.0 at some point we don't really know how the the ncas are going to enforce M how the implementation is going to go exactly uh the US is even further behind so you've got the two biggest markets really just starting on the path of regulatory change um and it's I think the Market's going to look very very different the other thing about regulation is that there's often a lot of unintended consequences attached to it so very difficult to predict there's often a lot of regulatory arbit opportunities that will be out there also very difficult to predict so I mean our view at centrifuge is really to develop something that's as flexible as possible you know an open source protocol with a lot of different opportunities because we don't really know where the Market's going to go we would love to know where it's going to go but we certainly don't so we've tried to build a platform with a lot of flexibility to cater for whatever is coming up uh in terms of the needs from the market from a tokenization standpoint and whatever can be done from a regulatory standpoint to me the the thing that I'm always advising is the question of being a bit more strategic and intentional with regulation I think the problem we have in Europe is we have a lot of um yeah a lot of culture history of how we regulate and we have like I feel like good students that try to do the right copy of like what should be a good regulation in this topic and I think that's what slowly like not to the advantage of Europe I'm I'm seeing I've been working with a lot of Imaging and developing countries and I can tell you that there is a range of countries that are already reasonably grown they don't have all the Legacy infrastructure problem so they don't have all all the weight of having big actors like the CSD we mentioned all the all all those those things they don't have the the big Bank sector that's lobbying too much and if you have sharp people in charge of Regulation that say okay how we make our play a a good Financial system and use the right infrastructure to make easy payment internally easy crossb payments which is a nightmare in in many countries attract Capital so people invest in our countries and even become a financial hub for some not ifone is in a situation of of doing that but you mention Hong Kong or these kind of country that have a history of trying to be this kind of hubs these one are really taking a Leap Frog and and I think it will be painful for for some other region to not have those done do steps and you can see that there very very sharp people in charge in and and you don't need much like like for for other industry it's really hard to bootstrap um um something like here it's just a question of taking the right decision and you can attract a lot of IDs you need also to be aware of predatory practice because you had a lot of crypto project that have a lot of capital and that are good in the Imaging country and say oh we're going to issue a stable con for you on all blockchain oh don't worry the fees we're going to cover at the beginning but then you will have to pay the fees with all platform and it's really this kind of weird thing that they just like solidify some sort of world Garden but I think everyone in the world see a long-term vision of a more in interconnected a more interoperable more easy way to to do Finance the long longterm Vision every one sees it but in on the road I feel like some countries will take an advantage I mean relatively by being a bit sharper on what needs to be done because it's not difficult it's just a question of as you say opening a little bit giving flexibility because no one knows exactly what happens cbdc is an option and I think I've been working a lot on CBC I think they have an interest but probably for instance in Europe we have the some an overwhelming project that tries to to do everything at once that it's it's it's I yeah I mean have some skepticism on this but but but it's an option also but it's a question of like being strategic of what what needs the economy to grow and and what are the right infrastructures and and decisions one minute to go one question for each so 30 seconds is it are we able to escape regulation and how through decentralization or how no I think it's you know like when you uh board the plane and you are going to the US uh you want to make sure it's safe uh I think the same thing goes with your funds you know uh I so I no I don't think we escape regulation I think there was always been a uh regulation making sure that you have you know cons consumer safety and and all of that no I not in my mind I mean I think there's always going to be part of the crypto Market that escapes regulation I think that that's part of the ethos of the crypto space uh it's not going to be real world assets for sure but uh there are will be some other parts of the crypto Market that will smaller and smaller parts I believe that will always manage to find a way to evade any kind of regulatory space so on this I'm really happy to see that I I thought a few years ago I thought that we would have a split and have more like permission defi you remember there were a few project trying to create is really and I'm happy to see that we have a spectrum I don't think that the the illegal crypto will be so small and I'm happy to see it still U working because also it's kind of a each that pushes everyone a bit sometimes on more financial aspects sometimes on privacy some I like that that exists and I think that's necessary and but I think a lot will be more compliant with with the Spectrum like different aspect and I'm happy to see this Rich ecosystem growing together thank you panelists thank you for all of you to stay until the end and yeah we'll go next