From idle TVL to active utility: making RWAs work in DeFi | ETHWarsaw [4]

So I I'm excited to welcome everyone. Let's let's go on stage and yeah, let's start.

GMGM everybody. I'm excited to speak to all these wonderful people. Thank you for being are letting me be on this panel. Um I'll leave it over to you.

You beautiful.

Thank you. This is a new helmet everyone. Um

welcome to the

I think I recognize you every time with this uh

got to have the brand awareness.

Cool. So welcome everyone. Thank you for joining us uh at this topic at this uh talk uh about real world assets. I'm Maria Tanka. will be today's host.

Uh and I'm joined by very amazing speakers, very amazing experts in their uh products, in their fields. Um we will talk as I said we will talk about utility, we will talk about how real world assets work in DeFi and we will explore are we actually tokenizing things to improve things? Are we actually doing this to make the market better, to make finance better, or we're just doing tokenization for the sake of tokenization, just saying things that are very loud? Um, I'm working at Centrifuge. This is the very OG project since 2017 and we've been through several cycles on the market.

Uh, we were doing experimentations uh trying to like understand how how we can improve finance back back then. But then uh I think in 2022 uh the market really changed and um crypto capital wanted to get more stable yield more stable assets to invest into and that's where we've seen u a huge amount of tokenized uh US treasuries coming uh on the market. So for example uh centrifuge participated in and one in the spark tokenization grand prix where we had 40 participants produ like presenting their projects with tokenized treasuries. So that that's huge amount of companies uh projects doing tokenization of US treasuries but then um this year what I personally see is that it's not enough anymore. Yeah we are trying to bring more assets on chain.

We are trying to do the same scheme. um there is an issue there is a big institutional allocator but then is it really it or is it is there a next step so before we dive into that I would like to uh go through quick intros and talk more about how like where do you work what do you do and also what is your stance on tokenization on real world assets and how you're actually moving things forward with uh DeFi and uh with assets working in DeFi Okay, let's start with Stan.

GMGM everyone. My name is Stanisu Copper Stash for short. I'm the head DGEN at Canary Protocol. Um, and I'm also perpetually finishing my PhD in engineering. Um, so Canary Protocol, we created a digital verifier network in trusted execution environment.

In simple terms, we manage the crosschain communications on top of layer zero for major protocols. We're securing over $10 billion in TVS and we're building the first real world asset first oracle for institutions run by institutions and other major protocols. Uh it all runs in this TE for tamproof verifiability and we are the only ones building this because there is no current rails for the actual projects to build real protocols on chain. We have 40 trillion to come on chain. We have 25 billion, but there's still a lot more room.

Thank you, Stan. Vivian, amazing. Great to have you here. Tell us more about yourself and and Bingax.

Okay. U my name is Vivian Ling. I'm the chief product officer at Bing X and also I'm heading BingX Labs, our investment arm under their exchange. Um yeah, uh we now we founded in uh 2018. And now we serve over 20 million users worldwide and in terms of derivative trading volume we're now among the top five uh derivative exchange globally.

So um yeah what we've uh we've done in in in RW space uh there's two part the first part is trading because we are a trading infrastructure provider. So uh we list the tokens the RW tokens and we partner with the market makers to make markets create uh the the market depths for those those projects. Uh and secondly since we also do our investments so we're also like trying to find the good projects those compliant one those with license and those with the underlying uh kind of like technology revolution to facilitates the adoption of RWA and RWA related projects uh to hope to contribute uh something to the growth of the RW space.

Yeah, thank you. Exciting. I already have a few things to ask you uh about like the audiences that you work with but that that will be later. Uh Mike, welcome. Thank you.

Nice to see everybody. I'm Mike Masari. I am a strategic advisor at Restton. As many of you know, of course, Restston is the fastest growing oracle in the space. Our job is to provide secure, reliable price data across hundreds of chains and thousands of feeds.

Recently we have released the RWA report which I'm sure many of you have read and we're really looking into the RWA space mostly because as per any very secure asset and very delicate asset RWA need infrastructure and they need the reliability that an Oracle can provide. So very excited to be here and to talk about infrastructure for WA.

Thank you. Thank you Mark. Thank you my dear co-panelist. So my name is Stefan Kaj. I am a head of business development at United Network.

So from personal uh personal perspective, I'm a crypto native. I'm almost 8 years in crypto and um you know I had a several cases of uh real onhand experience on working with RWA cases. So it's kind of like um carbon credits pilots and real estate tokenization. And um from United Network part we are uh long time focusing on a create seamless secure accessible infrastructure tool in a convenient form of card. Yeah, we are a non-custodial hardware wallet in a card form and um yeah like for us it's a crucial things to keep in mind that philosophy that crypto philosophy not your keys not your assets and we want to provide um a real world utility for real world real world assets.

Yeah, it's our long-term plan but basically um right now we just launched it in the middle of July. So we are in the very early beginning and yeah I'm happy to be here. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Welcome. And from what I hear like three people were talking more about like institution about uh institutional capital about the market makers. Um that's actually a very very very institutional narrative here. Um and then you are talking more about um retail users about how their experience is uh getting better with your product.

So I like the natural questions that comes out like who are we building for really uh is it institutions is it retail and like where we are now uh what is the stage now and I'd like to start with Vivian um what is what is current uh user that is actually uh trading or experiencing real uh real real world assets on your platforms. Uh okay at Bing X we um probably one of the first to list X stocks that is the tokenite uh tokenite stocks uh by X stocks the the institution um and we find the response from market is very interesting uh because I think those kind of uh products actually fill the gap uh especially for those like emerging country uh users or under the users from the underdeveloped markets to access a global asset. So for retail users um they see it as a like a direct access to US stocks without a um stock uh brokerage account that is quite crucial for those emerging market users and secondly from the in practice we see a uh I mean increasing traction on uh for example AI related names and uh uh those high-tech names uh as you you you might imagine um We also see there is a arbitrage opportunity created there because there's a natural price difference between a like 247 trading nature market and a like traditional financial trading hours that so that is trading opportunities out there and this opportunities mostly will be catched by institutional customers. uh but having said that we still see huge challenge out there that's mainly from the uh I mean liquidity and market deps because imagine you if you are like multi-billion funds if you want to access a strategy it's usually will have a lot of like heavy back testing work like input effort input into the strategy but if the market only have like multi-million uhish liquidity then you probably won't be able to enter that so now the market We see some sophisticated institutional investor are exploring on that front. Um but still only a few of them of them really put in money to running those strategy.

So we see there's a huge gap to be filled there. Uh this is also where uh exchange crypto exchange can help because we have partnership with uh market makers. We have partnership with the projects and the uh the institutional customers. So we have a better stance on that front to say hey let's let's talk about it let's make the market more efficient more better liquidity uh this is one thing this is more more from the secondary market and from the primary market I think there's a huge demand from the retail users uh in the past they can hardly have any access to the preipo round but now with the token with the Robin Hood like uh open AI um primary market token they have individuals will have the access to the um before uh preIPO round or even earlier investment round and since those um volume demand is relatively uh I mean small compared to the arbitrage strategy so this is a market more creative for the retail users and it is also where we see a lot of interest coming from that space

nice very interesting uh Stefan do you think this is the future future this is uh what are we building for or you still like do you think the retail usual users will dominate uh in the future?

Um you know like um I guess we have to look at it from few different perceptions and few different aspects. First of all, um here is uh exist a permissionless and permissioned dilemma I guess because um what do we have what we have right now currently it's totally permissioned and we do not have direct access access to our ownership rights. Yeah, we are have we are having only an an exposure. So um for like with it with it with with keeping in mind that we have not only web three processes in within the web3 ecosystem for adoption and mass adoption we should have um kind of like adoption onchain rails on everything around the web three processes. That means that we have to turn over our perception um from classic understanding things that we are doing like natively in our real life to this like web three um web three upgrade of everything and onchain everything you know like and only when this uh event will happen in future future we will have an opportunity to finally provide for provide an real onchain rights and real o real representation of rights to the users to the retail users before that it's going to be like I guess the same story that we had like for past 20 years but with a different but with an upgraded new sauce that's all That's that's an interesting perspective.

Um I think like at Centrifuge we were always um you know at the center and watching how the market develops and um of course the equities narrative is very very um big now. Everyone is talking about Robin Hood. Everyone is trying to bring equities on chain. Um but the big discussion around that is actually how we provide the live prices right and I think this is very much about the infrastructure as well not only about liquidity. Um so yeah Mike I I would like to understand your perspective how um infrastructure is helping to achieve this like to bring um equities and generally real world assets to masses.

Yeah, it's important to, you know, connect this also with the conversation that we were having before. So, we start by saying, okay, who is our customer, right? Because at the end of the day, our customer could be the asset issuers, our customer could be the chains, our customer could be the people that use those assets and consume those prices. So, what we try to do is cater to all of these people. Ultimately what people buy when they buy an oracle or when they use an oracle is reliability and security.

So the infrastructure needs to be reliable and secure and needs to be reliable and secure for all of the steps. The permissionless versus permission conversation that that you started is actually very interesting because now RWA are very much in a state in which everything is very permissioned and you know by by definition instead for example oracles are decentralized so they they try to be more towards the permissionless side of things and and I think that's a very interesting dilemma that we're going towards. So we need to provide the infrastructure and the infrastructure needs to be secure and needs to adhere to certain standards but without losing you know focus on what our crypto value actually are. So the trust minimization the permissionlessness and this decentralization side of things. I think that that will be a big challenge and like companies for example like Robin Hood that come in or or companies like stripe that now moving towards chain uh I'm curious to see how effectively that would change the perspective of the regular user and what would be important for them.

One thing that I always say about infrastructure is that we are in a little bit of a privilege position because infrastructure is something that sits kind of behind the scenes and and it's something that exists also in web two right so just users end users they don't quite see it and it's a good thing if they see it it means that it's something that doesn't work right the crowd strike fiasco when you know cloud thread doesn't work there's always like some problem and user get aware of cloudware but infrastructure So it's very much something that we do for the end user just in a like with a one degree of separation type of conversation. So in a way that they don't see it directly but they consume it and use it every day.

Interesting. Do you think we should adapt infrastructure to the regulation or regulation should adapt to our needs? So we should adapt infrastructure.

Uh should we adapt our product efforts building the infrastructure to the regulation or regulation should be more flexible to for us to being like you know doing what we want.

I think that you know so the modularity of it is not is not just about you know tokenizing everything. It's just it it's important to distinguish what is the data with versus what is the policy and and what is the infrastructure for the data and what is the infrastructure for the policy. Obviously as Oracle our job is to provide the most accurate most reliable and fastest possible prices and then obviously the policy that built on top of that data it's something that it's up to the protocol and it's up to the asset issuers and it's up to the consumers to do. So I do think that infrastructure should definitely cater to those use cases but it should not compromise on the values of infrastructure in order to absorb the use cases. Uh by tokenizing an asset on chain by definition obviously uh people adopt the protocols and the values and the and the rails that the chain provides and and they do it because we provide those certain values.

If we start compromising on those things then it becomes no different than traditional finance in a way.

Yeah, I agree with you. Um actually I was also uh looking at how um innovative cases appear because you mentioned that like like an oracle you you have a lot of information you have a lot of data right so you understand like what is the user behavior usually is um when I was doing some research uh about different projects and Canary actually it was interesting because it seems like you're not only u doing like Oracle services but you're also making real world assets their infrastructure Um really interesting to hear how that works and um yeah is it a new case for for for this assets?

Yes. So the approach with what we saw traditional oracles they were designed for crypto assets. They weren't designed for real world assets and real world assets need a completely different kind of class of infrastructure. So for example, we first created the crosschain messaging on top of a layer 0 because we believe layer 0 is the biggest is the biggest crosschain bridging protocol right and we said okay we're going to create a digital verify network in this trusted execution environment we have guard rails we use KN consensus and SSL pinning to prevent manand middle attacks and these are the kind of things that institution needs guarantees that this is going to go through they're going to move millions of dollars okay they need to make sure that they have this verifiable proof, right? And we secure projects like Ether.

Recently, Morpho have decided to use our DVN without us even approaching them. So, we also did the research first. We compared every single digital verify network that exists today. And we are 10 to 15 times faster. We can scale to billions of messages in an basically in a couple of seconds.

And then we offer uh basically shared security and dispute protocols leveraging the IGEN layer infrastructure. So now we have a solid base. Now we're securing over10 billion dollars. There's going to be many more billions coming very soon. That's some alpha for you.

I do have a talk tomorrow that I'll be explaining some key aspects of Canary the Oracle itself. I don't want to go too much today. But now we designed this Oracle with an RWA focus leveraging this entire backbone that we have today because look we we we we believe that we need to make sure that you are moving billions of dollars. You need to make sure that your verifiable price fees doesn't go up by a few bips that we've seen happen, right? So, we also do something that no other does is that our sources are directly from the sources themselves, unlike we don't have to rely on validators.

So, for example, um I can't say what partner we're using, but like for example, we're using the Bank of Poland as our source. So, some people would be like, "Oh, why aren't you using validators? That's not very decentralized of you." Well, actually our feeds are designed to be completely secure from outside tampering with all these extra things that we've built on top. So that's why people should trust us because it's actually the huge institutions reputation on the line too.

And for example, if they did, let's say, get hacked and some price fee did happen, our technology automatically protects the users and won't include those information gathered from them. So we've built everything from scratch from the needs of these institutions. We're also going to be participating in some accelerators very soon that are real world asset focus first and that's why I say we need to let's say focus on one thing and be the best at it and that's what Canary is doing and yeah

interesting that you mentioned sources um and Bank of Poland as Poland as an example uh this is actually like one source right um does it mean that if we're using one source of information.

We're not using what I'm just saying. We're not using one source of information. We have multiple sources of information, but our sources are from let's say the highest grade institutions in the crypto space and others.

Yeah. But still a lot of a lot of data still is like held by um one or maybe two um institutions to players. Um and still like we rely a lot of uh one big big big data feeder. um does it mean that we're actually um not following DeFi ethos uh and like relying on centralized um information rather than doing it in the centralized way?

Again, this is from my personal opinion is that I don't think necessarily we're going to have silos, right? There's going to be the institutions, there's going to be the DeFi, DGens, and we one person cannot serve everyone. And I think that's the wrong approach to take because if you're doing the jack of all trades, you're not a specialist in that. And now we're seeing all these oracles going back. Okay, we're going to do institutions, right?

We're going to do build this now, right? So now you have to rebuild everything to serve these projects. And I think my issue is is that what happens when uh what what if it gets wrong? I know someone gets hacked. It is what it is.

like this is our nature of a space but we need to make sure that the rails are there for the people that are trusted and I could go on on about a tangent I will explain more things in my talk but I don't want to just give everything now

of course um Stephen what do you think about uh retail users how would they perceive that is it important for them to understand that like everything is decentralized uh real world assets are not relying on on one source source of information or like several but they are very much controlled by someone.

Yeah, thank you. I would love to start with adding to you previous speech. um you know like few months ago I've seen um news uh like about that uh newspaper about that uh New York Stock Exchange or NASDAQ like considering about to shift from 9 to5 uh from Monday till Friday work days work activity to 247 and here is a key thing because for us as crypton natives. Yes, for us it's very important to see those type of events that will highlight our powerful aspects and there is a that concrete space where web three should definitely actualize and push it forward because you know like some cases could be inevitable inevitable when the avalanche of different um uh events that are ongoing in the same time so huge that you cannot ignore them. So yeah, so that's where the onchain adoption finally became in our real life and I'm sorry for that.

Could you please because I keeping that in mind to add it here. Yeah. Could you please uh remind

how much it is important for users that will uh on board like when this event will happen, right? like we will see a lot of users coming um from different perspectives but will they care or are they do they care now about what's uh on the backstage what's uh happening with oracles what's happening who's holding the data yeah

yeah I could separate this answer to uh two uh two aspects first of all like that Stan mentioned that um we are right now still so early in this infrastructure ructure institutional race. We are like we almost end our crypto degenerative uh um kind of like um like fun or something like that. And we are shifting to this space where you have to be uh you have to follow some legislations. You have to be uh for for you you have to like provide some compliances, verifications etc. Because without it, without this aspect, it's hard to um it's hard to get to this point where you are truly have permissionless access to some um institutional grade assets or something like but in the same time we have a two um like asymmetry in um asymmetry in an opportunity aspect.

So what um institutional or accredited investors could allow them to do in a trust fee or like in the next way of RWA in defy. Uh like retail people cannot allow themselves to do the same things. So, and it's crucial for us to push this idea of kind of decentralized ID or like um real ownership or deeds of ownership um on chain without wrapping anything because without that we will lost all um common initial sense of Satoshi Nakamoto in the Bitcoin white paper and it could be hard to us to strive through everything. But for a retail user, I would say like for the common users that are not uh really um interacted with crypto or right now still not involved in that, I would say that um uh you know it's a simple case visa and mastercard everyday usage billions of transaction trillions of transaction billions of users no one knows how does it work but in the same time there is huge infrastructures huge amount amount of subcontractors, huge amounts of uh providers, etc., etc.

And like to the stand point like we will have a huge competitor race and right now we are in the beginning like we're in the beginning of the race who create some um who creates some products like kind of you don't have to understand what is under the hood but yeah what is under the hood but in general it works seamlessly and no one ask what about it but still keeps in mind from me from my perspective. Yeah. um that uh we have to really like I love to understand I like to understand that I really own something you know you can you can also you you'll own nothing and you'll be happy maybe someone remembers it mim from a world economic forum and something like that but still right now almost all of the conversation on a future defy and RWA um acceptance by retail for me it's the same like the defi talks before unis swap came to the market just wanted to jump in quickly I agree with most of that I think that um you mentioned a couple of very interesting points one being you know infrastructure like people don't care about what's under the hood like let's take a lesson right from from web two like people don't know how Facebook works right But billions of people use Facebook as the height of it. Uh people don't know how hosting works. People don't know how YouTube works, but billions of people use it.

And and I think that that is really what we should be striving for. So we should be striving for a user experience that effectively provides the best possible product and the best possible value to the user. And when we think about user experience, most of us just think about, you know, interface. But user experience is not only interface. It's it's the whole process of on boarding the user identification.

Um in our case, you know, how the user transacts, how the different tokens, for example, move across the different chains and what they own, what do they not own and what is custodial and versus non-custodial. And we should really wrap that in what is the best possible products without the complexity of blockchain. We talk so much about mass adoption. If we want to have mass adoption, it means obscuring the complexity that now we're we all know and love and I've been in crypto since 2017. So I know about slippage and about you know chains and tokens and wallets and all these kind of things.

But most of the people even in institution they don't know it. they don't really mind that aspect. What they what they're looking for is the best user experience. At the same time, as you correctly said, it's up to us to uphold these values, right? Because having a better user experience doesn't mean compromising on how you get there.

It just means obscuring the complexity so the user doesn't see it. It doesn't mean removing the complexity. So, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think that a big key factor in all of our conversation also with what Stan said is we need to cater to these infrastructure very specifically because they have very specific requirements. My opinion is we should do it in a way that still keeps all of the values and all the things that brought us here there and doesn't remove them but just modifies them so they are easier to understand.

I totally agree. uh at the same time we still like to issue anything uh any fund on chain you still are using uh a lot of different actors you still need a fund admin you still need a custodian I mean it's almost the same amount of uh uh a number of uh actors as in traditional finance to issue a fund you need legal support u and everyone uh is involved uh the same way as they are involved in traditional finance. Uh so it's still quite complicated. I would say we are not yet there. Um although there are a lot of right right conversations, right narratives that we should strive for that.

Um personally I don't think we are there yet and that's where we should all work um for and on. Um but are there anything is there anything that would be more native to DeFi? Is there something that would work differently would uh or works right now? Uh Vivian, do you see any trends right now? Like what is different uh for defy users for institutions that are seeking um tokenization?

Uh what what is happening like are they behaving differently? What are the trends that you observe

um from um investment perspective and exchange perspective? Actually uh I think we I mean the first and foremost thing I care about is how to as well discussed earlier is the in I mean the uh user interface or user experience because having said all this like the tokenization whether the underlying asset is stock or bond or like stripped uh cash flows to the real user we need to think about what's the value added by those products whether we add an extra layer of security, how to how we I mean uh define the ownership or like how whether we can provide an extra um trading opportunities because like people coming to an exchange to trade or the people like the trade people coming to DeFi the first thing they are seeking is a yield whether it's a yield from or return from a yield product or the return from the trading activity they they they both count So from our perspective um as long as this is the place that to provide underlying yield source we need to care about um the infrastructure the user uh experience to lower the barrier for people to understand what is RWA what is a tokenization and what is the um I mean the the the utility of underlying assets. Uh, for example, we recently got a lot of peach from the um like u a fractional ownership kind of project to sell me a piece of the property or like a a a cow or maybe apartment all those kind of things. But you know from my point of view the apartment itself is not new. The new thing is the guy or the project want to sell the property to for example a US property to a like year 9 user and in pieces but let's think about it whether this is revolutionary um I think yes and no in terms of formality it is it's a new format but uh having said that because we're talking about RW we are talking about a highly regulated kind of sector so we always need to ask Ourself is it um compliant?

A compliant means does that really create value for users whether uh the I mean the investor or the buyer of the token can really be benefit from the trading activity or the buying act purchase out there. So this is the key question we are always asking ourself when we investing in the uh RW RW protocol. This is one thing. Another thing is from the yo enhancement because like we we've seen already a lot of like uh uh TBO backed RW projects we're seeing a lot about um stock backed or bondback um projects. So I from my point of view I see the utility there is that we there is a group of people really need the access to those asset but apart from that it's mostly from the trading activities.

So from that space what we can do is that we provide a very uh like seamless uh very fast very fair trading environment for whoever want to participate in trading those activities. So we see as I just described the interests come from different party from different um like motivation. So the product we need to provide are pretty much uh quite different. Uh but but I think one thing out there is um I think the difference between CFI and DeFi or or treaty and DeFi is how we build our trust. From the DEF DeFi perspective, um the trust is built upon consensus uh built upon our trust in the technology itself and for in the trade trade fight space the the trust is built upon a like regulatory body or regulatory entity.

Um so stepping to the new we are not still on the early stage but stepping into the new era. Um I think what DeFi can really change the way we participate in finance and what we participate in the real world is that it really help us to solve a real problem is not only create a new format that we need to learn.

You mentioned that there is still a lot of education uh that needs to be done. Um is it something that you're doing or you're relying on issuers to do that education? Uh we did a lot of education work. Um like if you looking at our website we have educational webs web page and we have explanation we have AMAs with a project and we now recently uh launched our AI master that is the AI uh tools that we we we give our user to uh ask whatever they they want to know. And for those all those initiatives um we want to lower the entry barrier for a common user normal user uh but still we need the help with the ecosystem and help with the project teams that really to explain what the project what the protocol is doing uh with plain English or plain language that is uh what we uh uh trying to work with project team as well.

Do you have any criteria when you're assessing uh the assets uh what is like the threshold to on board the users like what is the complication for them to to go through QACQAB? uh you mention RWA or

yeah for for RWA

okay RWA first it has has to be a real project that that is a minimum requirement and secondly we hope uh if it is stock backed or bond backed it's mostly provider access but for if it is a kind of new format of RWA we really ask ourself does it really bring value to the community if you only sell a cow to me then probably not right but If if you sell for example um the region we operate people are seeking for stable yield um and they kind kind of can take relatively high risk then we probably can source uh project provide the ABS uh or asset back security kind of uh tokens for them to uh do the do the e enhancement but of course all those activities product have to be um within the regulatory requirement. And that is like how we operate the exchange.

Yeah, I agree with you that education still needs to be done. Although when we were designing this panel, uh we actually were thinking like do we still need to explain to people what real world assets are and like if yes, how how high level that should be. Uh so yeah, we decided to stick more to utility to how make them work. But if you still feel um that you need some education on that, I I guess you guys have a lot of uh information about that. Um Sam, do you think like when you create your product and when you pitch it, do you still need to do a lot of education on your product on real world assets in general?

Yes, it depends who you're approaching as well because institutions obviously they most of the time they know that what real world assets are. they're trying to put them on chain and there's just like we said there's no infrastructure really like the fundamentally and I think also we need to think about is the entire uh transparency is our space still lacks so much transparency in whether it's from how oracles work or where data is coming from or is this actually verifiably true because you can just give you data like for example like okay I have a I basically have a PhD I'm going to tell you that I'm a specialist in biome mechanics and I think you've got this disease. You're going to trust me because I have a PhD as a doctor, right? And people still have that same kind of mentality in web 3. We're seeing all these scams, these rugs.

And look, at the end of the day, like this is my personal opinion again. Like I I've had the privilege of interviewing many different oracles and fundamentally people don't realize it's a downward game because price feeds are for free. And at what point do you realize, oh actually, oh um we're running out of money. all our price all these billions of dollars that we're securing actually aren't going to be secured because we're going down. I know recently many projects are uh pioneering new OEV solution which is essent I'm not going to go into that it's but essentially a way to make money bring back money to token holders and the projects themselves but I think RWA's fundamentally will shift our narrative forward because look that's where the real money is like the users are great because we need to have proof of concept but fundamentally if the institutions aren't aren't coming on chain because we we don't have the infrastructure you put every the 80 trillion of assets on chain right now.

Every single chain is dead. It's broken because we fundamentally can't do it. So I believe it's like I hope we have more coalitions working together, right? And it's not just I'm the best oracle, right? And look, everyone has their specialtities.

That's amazing. But why is it going to be I'm number one. That's my personal perspective. But in Canary's perspective, I we really believe is it it's just a matter of time until everyone catches up. We having new technologies that weren't ready coming on chain.

Now we can engineer them. Right? Why we use TE is because there's billions of dollars backing this hardware. Right? Yeah.

There used to be hacks back in the day but now we have some of the biggest Google like everyone is using TE's now and now it's a safe technologies to implement. Right. So it is just a matter of time.

Nice. I think to um summarize before we get to the questions um what is like one thing that should change for real world is to become the backbone of DeFi in 2026 can you

let's start from that side

okay let's start yeah

easily I would love to I would love to add to your point previous point just for a second um you know like we should have kind of a great superchain of everything that will interact within in like smoothly and um like without any permissioned uh different type of accesses for because like for us like from non-custodial hardware wallet it was a challenge to create a like multi-chain solution inside of one inside of of chip of the chip and make it work seamlessly through different chains is the same like with oracles with defies with rwas etc etc so uh regarding to your question. Uh I would say that we um I guess we have to see more onchain rails for everything aside of web three viz. So for example like you mentioned about uh web two uh web two businesses uh under the web three idea about RWA and um the same thing for example in decentralized science for IP intellectual intellectual property tokens it's also kind of RWAS but the lawyers still right now have not any framework to put the real intellectual property on chain so like kind of the small things everything like from this from that around and that it will be a huge avalanche of change.

Thank you Mike. What do you think? What should change?

I I do agree with that. I think that um you know having necessarily one like super chain is a a solution. Um I don't think it's uh the only solution, the only approach like what we could do for example is you know having multiple chains but like not expose that directly to the user and like of not that not being a problem for people like yourself to be to build non-custodial hardware wallets, right? And and have solutions for wall wallets to work everywhere for example. So I think it's up to us to to create those uh those things and and that brings me to the answer to your question which in really a word will be user experience like I touched upon this before and I think that as you correctly said we're not quite there.

So in order to tokenize something or even in order to invest into an RWA it takes now multiple steps. It takes a specific knowledge. It takes also quite a bit of skill to not fall into you know pitfalls or or into you know potential scans or or whatever problem. So I think that the user experience needs to be built around that. So that's the biggest change that I would like to see in 2026 for sure.

Uh okay my answer will be that I actually uh see increasing adoption from the trade the very big institution like JP Morgan Chase bank or th those very like mega institutions uh that is very good sign and I I think there will be a trend in like 2026 2027 and I'm also looking forward to uh better or stronger infrastructure because only with the infrastructure we can h we can make the mass adoption possible that everyone has a a similar or unified standard uh to allow this space really interchangeable and uh uh that's how we can build the scalability how that how we can build trust and everything on top of that the utilities the tokens the asset we have a um trusted way to put them on chain have a trusty way to have them traded everywhere everyone can trade anything and anywhere that's amazing future. I just love that.

I don't know. I I usually try not to be controversial and I'm not going to be this time, but I do think transparency. Everyone has no people don't know what actually happens with partnerships and deals and stuff like that, right? And if you did know, then maybe you'd be like, "Hang on a second. This is not right."

And I would love to see the major projects out there, RWAs, Oracles, everyone to just be like, this is how it works. This is our industry. And yeah, and I'm not going to go into it, but yeah, it's it's the truth. Like most of the stuff you see is not true.

Yeah, I think this panel is exactly the example for people coming together and discuss things um as honestly as we can. And uh from centrifuge perspective, we actually also see the liquidity issue, right? that this is uh very important to have a lot of activity, a lot of liquidity on chain uh moving around to make sure that those use cases that we want uh people to experience are actually possible especially on exchanges and different trading activities. Um that's why like we're not doing super chain yet. Uh but this this is actually uh the bad that we're doing.

We're going multi-chain. So making sure that and also like uh chain abstraction making sure that users and investors they do not really uh have to care about what chain they investing from uh as well as issuers like they can choose whatever chain they want to issue their funds and accept the investments from the um another chain. Um that's that's the thing that we think will be the change uh in 2026. Uh but of course we want real world assets to dominate and this will eventually happen. Uh we have two minutes for questions.

Are there any? Oh my god, a lot of them.

Well done.

Okay, I'm going to help you out here. Uh first

yes, thank you so much. So the topic is making RBAS work in DeFi and uh I don't think they can work in DeFi simply because RAS are like custodial assets and maybe instead of doing RBAS uh would be better idea to do like synthetic assets. What do you think? I can add at this point we have a great example of um gold pg so no one understands that it's like a kind of rwa because it's a tradable token on almost every exchange and you could buy like directly on exchange u pxg token yeah and uh then you can put it on your hardware wallet custodial wallet it doesn't matter and then only if you want to redeem it from uh like in a physical aspect like physical gold if you want to redeem limit you just only just only then you have to go through all of the KYC and compliances. So I guess we have to um we have to have more cases like a kind of PUXG because there is a native LWA but tradable as a cryptocurrency token.

A lot of equity hype right now is around uh making sure that we can trade equities on chain and tokenize them. But actually these are synthetic assets. Uh like they are just tracking the indexes and uh tracking the prices. They are not really tokenized. So uh a part of the solution right now is making this assets synthetic already.

Um what like some projects like central future are trying to do is to make sure that this is actually natively tokenized assets not just the synthetic ones. Um so yeah this is the part of the solution already is on the market.

I just want to add one more thing. I disagree with you. I think uh something my granddad taught me before he died. He invested in gold and all these other assets and if you think about it like gold and all these like stable assets have been going up all the time. Yeah, they've gone down a bit but now gold yesterday reached all-time high.

I would and something that I was doing now is I'm actually buying gold onchain and I would rather have that than like USDT or USDC because that is actually appreciating asset and I think it's a way better and like boring is fun. RWA are the thing that will re rejuvenate crypto again. You may not like it. Like for all the DJs, I was skeptical. But actually, that's where the money is.

That's where the investors are. That's where the capital is. Retail does things, but look, institutions move the world. Capitalism wins at the end of the day. As much as we want to be altruistic and have like this you super chain of amazingness, it's not going to happen because someone's going to launch some magical chain with ZK magical something that apparently gives you better finality, right?

It's just a game. Game theory.

Amazing. Yeah. So you can still get gold as a synthetical asset. You can just like let's say fork maker, you can put uh gold oracle there and you have synthetic asset as gold, right? Uh but now that's like real defy because it's backed by collateral whereas uh just a normal ROA is backed by somebody's um obligation to let you redeem the asset which is custodial.

So that's my take is that it is uh like custodial which makes makes it a CFI instead. So it's like not fully DeFi. So would you trust a synthetic asset or an actual gold

onchain synthetic asset? Because like does algorithmic

I guess

isn't it the actually one of the questions that we discussed do users actually care about custodian uh in the middle of this structure or not? So I guess you're the user who cares about that side of things.

Yeah, I mean we just can't call it a DeFi, right? If it's if it's if it's reliant on somebody's custody, then it's like not defy by definition. So if uh we're talking about how we can make them work in DeFi, it's just a dilemma.

So we we have to like your take is that we have to remove this uh custodial uh part.

There is there is a lot of risks about like algorithmic something uh because we have seen for example Terra Luna etc. and we are not secured from like saved from this uh occasions in the future if we put all of the assets directly on chain and it should be invented some um like I guess weights or um correctable um like I wouldn't I I can't I can't like skip it sorry so uh we have to have more secure environment to put like kind of these assets to truly to defy because without that there is a lot of risks to full crash of the system because any landing asset is like core um like connect connected to each other and if one uh aspect will drop down every aspect of the landing protocol could also fall down so it's kind of like DPEGs of USDC's terra etc. I think I think time's up for us. Uh, Valina, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Discuss. Let's discuss. Let's discuss. Yeah. After.

Yeah. I I see a question, but I guess that will be later.

One more because this was still one question. So, one more.

One more question. Uh,

okay.

Yeah, please.

Uh, Martin Protocol. uh there was a lot of discussion regarding uh infrastructure and what extent it should be visible or invisible for uh retail users and there was a visa and Facebook examples given and and I totally agree that it shouldn't be visible basically right it's like you know benefits over uh over features uh my question is to what extent you guys think it applies to uh to institutional uh players

um I do think that that applies to some extent to institutional players and you brought up the example that I that I gave before Facebook it's fantastic right and I don't don't think about Facebook think about AWS right so if you're building a website you know about Google cloud you know about AWS right if you're navigating to a website you don't need to so I think that the example still applies right and the and the metaphor still stands so obviously if you're issuing an asset like you guys are doing there's definitely visibility that you need to have in the infrastructure and more importantly you need to have visibility in the reliability in the security in the infrastructure. So quite deep visibility into why is built in a certain way, what is built like and and how. Um my point was more for the end user. So if I invest in an asset, I should not be caring whether that asset is on a chain or another or whether I need to use this wallet or another one or whether if I want to switch it to another asset, I need to set manually like a slipage value. Right?

So those are the things that I think are important to abstract away and obscure it sounds like a bad word. So I would just say more like simplify to the eye of the user. But obviously for the people that are involved within the space in the same way that it happens with traditional finance there needs to be visibility throughout because there needs to be proven reliability and proven security of the infrastructure that we use. Yeah, I think that's very much uh what is already happening uh that protocols that are doing tokenization they are trying to abstract the complexity for institutions for builders uh that doesn't mean that they hide something they just like make pre-made uh parts of the product that institution can use and this is how we uh in future are doing that we're doing launchpad where you have already created contracts that you you can interact with and you don't have to really um build everything from ground up. But that doesn't mean that you cannot check how this works or you cannot audit them.

Thank you so much. Um huge applause for Maria and I

Thank you.

Thank you

the rest of the panelists. I see you want to last words or do you rush out to lunch?

Last words.

Thank you very much for joining. Uh, everyone is here still, so please come and talk to us if you have any more questions. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you guys so much.