PANEL: Truflation, Scroll, Glo Dollar, Reserve - The Evolution of Web3 Payments

all right thank you Isha the next panel will be about the evolution about of web3 payments building a competitive digital payment stack uh with speakers Stefan rust from True flation Raza zidi from scroll G lucassen from glow dollar Thomas mattimore from ABC Labb reserve and our moderator Maya C [Applause] in the middle I'll be in the middle okay everyone so we've obviously had loads of exciting talks we all here for a specific reason we know that payments make sense we finally found something that has hit product Market fit in crypto um which is exciting and stable coins are already powering over2 trillion Us in organic payments annually and so this conversation is about building the future of the of a building the evolution of web free payments what does a competitive digital payment stack truly look like so I want to frame this conversation a bit introduce a new jargon payi introduced um earlier this year by ly L from salana Foundation payi is the creation of new financial markets around the the time value of money onchain Finance can enable new Financial Primitives product experiences that are impossible in web 2 do that includes the application layer the compliance layer currency and custody layers so whether that's Circle te ABC Labs glow dollar and then also the transaction and infr layers so the liks of cell bass scroll so I've hinted at some of our guests but I want to give them a chance to introduce themselves um do you want to start sure thanks um I'm K from glow dollar glow dollar is a stable coin much like usdc it's us issued us regulated 100% backed by Fiat mix of cash and us treasuries the big difference is we are structured as a nonprofit and that allows us to take all of the profits and donate it to charitable causes and um basically the crypto ecosystem through Grand programs and uh yeah we're live on seven chains growing slowly but surely and excited to beer awesome I guess I'll go next right um hi I'm Stefan Rose I'm the founder and CEO of tration we bring Real World prices onto the blockchain and what do we do with true flation we created a flat coin called newon previously I was a CEO of bitcoin.com where we scaled 50 well we scaled to about 50 million wallets and about 500,000 Merchants physical Merchants that could accept crypto as payments hello everyone I'm Raza head of grow at scroll uh scroll is a layer to ZK solution um we're very much like ZK is our bread and butter where we believe that we still believe that ZK has can skill infinitely um and yeah super stoked to talk about uh stable coins payment I think um uh I think that we often talk about defi having product Market fit uh stable coins maybe seem boring definitely not to me and so and I think that payment is the at least for me the next Frontier where we where I see us at scroll delivering value for um the community stable coins aren't boring to me either uh my name is Thomas mamore I'm the CEO of ABC Labs uh which is the protocol development team for the reserve protocol uh the reserve protocol lets anyone permissionless launch a index uh that could be a money market like thing uh an ETF like index uh Etc uh so far in our platform we have the largest eth LST index uh we also have um a yield bearing stable coin called usd3 uh and a stable coin that has a fintech partner share uh where the underlying yield goes to different fintechs that use the stable coin uh most notably right now it's used throughout Latin America on an app called ugly cash where people can spend a stable coin with a debit card um or send it to their family and friends around the world uh and yeah perfect and last but not least I'm Meer I previously built a non-custodial peer-to-peer on an off- ramping protocol scaled it in Nigeria and Kenya to multi-millions in liquidity so let's get started um let's start by talking about the currency layer um I really think we're going through op Winfrey effect where everyone gets a stable coin everyone's building a stable coin everyone's issuing a stable coin and everyone's doing crypto payments right so how do we think about distribution to really differentiate ourselves especially when we're targeting few different types of customers consumers and businesses institutions and then the crypto native players anyone want to jump in sure I'll talk I think you're seeing a lot of new stable coins enter the space right and you have the traditional big stable coins so that's Circle and tethers usdc and USD they're big they don't need to share yields they can really just do whatever they want then you're seeing a lot of entrance coming in that are sharing yield somehow uh they're not super Diversified in my opinion it's great to have that especially for the crypto in crowds that loves to get yield um but it's typically issued offshore uh and has a tough time gaining traction outside of the crypto bubble and it's definitely not helpful for the web three evolution of payments I would say um I think what you do need instead of uh stable coin yields is is probably a great at least in our experience a great issuing jurisdiction better licenses some unique value proposition and then really what it all comes down to is distribution distribution distribution and I think you need sort of the mix of the former three in order to land deals to get that distribution and uh we are interesting because we do something completely different than most but I think there's probably very other uh models out there as well that cater towards through web three payments Evolution I mean I think there's a lot of innovation right now in the stable coin market and I think we haven't broken through the dam yet if you will right there's always every you know there's always regulatory hurdles everybody's concerned but if you look at at some of the Emerging Markets you're seeing vast adoption of crypto you see very high penetration in stable coins right why because they are suffering from very high inflation look at countries like Argentina Nigeria turkey they're all suffering from 40 4 I mean 40 to 100 plus% month on month 40% year inflation and then ultimately on an annual basis couple 100% inflation so what currency do they use right so that's why they have high penetration they don't trust their governments anymore the mistrust in governments and institutions has been growing in the last four or five years significantly where do I go how many Fiat currencies do we have today on the planet we have hundreds of different Fiat currencies so why can't we have hundreds of different stable coins we just need to make sure that they interoperate and people don't give a [ __ ] about the actually underlying technology but you have an amazing user experience before anyone else jumps in I'm going to push us a bit as well um in the sense that why given that there's so many stable coins coming out why should I as a consumer I as a business or I as an institution choose this St coin over another how as stable coin issuers platforms pushing stable coins can we actually think about pushing ours versus the big players or the new players this is potentially a little bit controversial but I actually don't think that consumers care that much uh they care that it is worth a dollar and that it works when they want it to work and that it's integrated with the apps that they want it to be integrated with there's like a um this is like the opposite of talking my own book uh there's in my mind there's a very much like a base layer of safety and any stable coin that's above that people don't care about which one it is uh they care that the money is there and that it's not going away and that they don't have to scroll Twitter to know whether or not that money is still there and I I think after that it's like really about what is the user experience for that money so do you think a consumer would care if you offer yield on a stable coin that is that enough of a point of differentiation that is totally a point of differentiation yeah so let me give you a different spinner because I think that it's very evident that in Emerging Markets you know stable coin have a huge value like you mentioned inflation I was born and raised in the Netherlands live there still and I think that uh you know what would it take for let's say that that region to adopt like a stable coin uh the fact of the matter is is that they don't have a need for it because they think that the government is stable that the currency is stable so you know when maybe like some of my friends are looking for maybe New yield opportunities they might look at it you know I've got I've spent 10 years in trafi so some every now and then you know someone will reach out and say hey what new unique opportunities are there so they'll they'll look at as a may you know Yi bearing Yi bearing stable coin may be uh thought of as a as an opportunity but the fact of the matter is that if you look at stable countries when there's a geopolitical uh SW uh shift going on I.E you you saw it with countries like Russia and China maybe getting banned from Swift or something like that that will create a huge push right and then and so for the quote unquote West even though it's fascinating to see stable coin growth in the states in Europe for instance I would say that it hasn't really been and don't catch me on the on the stats but in my direct environment it hasn't been growing that fast because there's no need for it at least that's that's what you know a lot of people feel now with MAA coming in and you know a bunch of other regulatory stuff I know there's like not Circle but the circle Bank uh is now looking at the Euro stable coins um because they don't want to like stay behind but I know for a fact I used again us to be trafi the ECB the European Central bank had a plan to launch a Euro stable coin by 2021 so yeah exactly so so you know Europe tends to be a follower America is a leader in some way and then I think that for for for these regions stable coin adoption will uh will come when like as a major uh shift either economically or geopolitically so I know each of you to some different extent have been engaging with institutions what would it take for instit ution to actually adopt stable coins especially Beyond payments um and what would take what would it take for them to shift from really the bigger player in this space I'm going to name them Circle right why circle is the at at the moment the one that the institutions trust the most so how can you push them to say actually there's this other stable coins than you should consider them so institutions are already moving Black Rock has has uh I believe their own stor s bid I don't know why they named it bidd but uh they're looking at PSM models um and you see actually institution moving behind the scenes uh they're not very vocal about it so I do think institutions like big money is are already moving um and I think that what's it going to take like I'm more interested in what you mentioned is like Integrations like for user consuming Integrations because when it comes to the payment layer you know people sometimes forget how much it cost to run a credit card and you know how much you pay for a credit card and now combined that will yield opportunities um uh you know for something we're doing at scrolls with E5 cash now now what's a useful thing to a user is saying Hey what if you had a credit card but you're not paying any fees and as a matter of fact or a debit card and and and as a matter of fact money that's there on chain yeah you don't even and it's generating yield and now I think that the reason why I'm so bullish on payments is because like an end to- end flow right we're used to unring generating value on chain but now you have like an end to- end flow and like it has a way out and so um just to like side R and not run but debank the bank uh debank de banking banking the debank people unbanked people um and then for the consumers in the west so to say showcasing like hey what if you had a debit card but you don't pay any fees so you you really talk from a consumer point of view think that that's going to move institutions um uh into space even more maybe yeah to add to that I I also see institutions definitely moving towards stable coins already and one thing I'm super excited about is stable coins moving up the trfi stack basically crypto eating the trfi world so you're increasingly seeing for instance transferwise like businesses that do remittances for consumers between for instance the US and Argentina or us and turkey they're increasingly moving towards stable coin reals to basically have a more affordable service and I think we're going to see more and more of that like stripe is going to replace their entire stack one by one with stable coin powered services and maybe you'll actually end up in a world in which we have banks in every country that move their money using stable coins like that is what I would expect to happen I just to add a little bit to that uh it's highly dependent on like what type of institution are we talking about right are we talking about a financial institution that is looking to get some kind of yield on their money are we talking about a a payments company right like stripe or something else you know I think one of the most interesting thing about payments companies and stable coins is in general they don't really care what kind of like payment method their customers use it's really what kind of ways do their customers want to pay and so it's very much like a customer-driven uh integration on on the payment side that I think is going to like really Drive stable coin adoption on that end and you know to someone's earlier point I forget who said it but like yield is probably going to Drive stable coin adoption and then stable coin adoption will actually drive the payment as a being a stable coin and so like I think on on that side of the institutions it's really going to be yield that drives this flywheel of stable coin usage around the world uh and then on the other side um you know I I don't know exactly what it is but the number one thing that does need to be clarified is regulations uh can Banks hold stable coins on their balance sheet uh or you know can they not can they actually interact with defi are they allowed to do that uh th those are things that hopefully we're going to see some clarity on in the next year or two so I'm going to be a bit more controversial right I think um institutions don't care about Bitcoin at all and they don't care about blockchain and they're not going to invest in this it's up to us to change the industry why at the moment we're they have it budgets they have committees they have business units they have product units they have to decide how we allocate our it budget is it going to go to crypto cyber security is it going to go to AI is it going to go to blockchain and is it going to maintain all my teams and train them and educate them and keep business as usual other SAS projects so crypto and blockchain is going to become a smaller and smaller portion both at the banking side as well as at the traditional businesses side so it's not going to come from the West maybe from the East it'll come right where they have to compete they can't trust their money they don't have the payment rails out there and the payment rails work in the west right we pay five s% on credit card payments so do I really care it's it works you know people are happy with it they can go to a bar they pay much more and by the way that dollar we built stable coins why so that we could transfer money amongst us Crypt nights right not so we could change and and we wouldn't need to go to the banks and worry about onramps off ramps transfer move it across to another exchange no we built stable coins to manage and manage the flow of money between exchanges so that we could move it from crypto exchange to crypto exchange and now all of a sudden in our mind we've come to the realization that actually the dollar in crypto on crypto rails to your point stays a dollar whereas in credit card world that dollar doesn't stay a dollar the gas fees are way higher they're three four 5% actually no 5 to 7% depending if you're online Merchant you pay up to 15% gas fees on a transaction and so you don't have that on the blockchain rails and I think that's why we are today and we are so excited about payments how do we drive velocity of money in cryptoland using these new payment stack so what else maybe a question for you Stephen are you in favor of institutions in the west or against because you said you were against and now I'm not against it's 5 to 7% That's a lot of money and the West loves 5 to 7% I'm pretty sure yeah but but imagine how they pay that right so you have an issuing provider how many middleman there's seven people across that so every seven person get 1% each let's say on average right so there's so many middlemen and in crypto we've taken out of that middleman and now we want to put them back in again no I think you can re architect the the the stack and make it much cheaper that's why you see sap and ernston young showing up to stable Summit all of a sudden that's not a coincidence that's institutions driving money into the industry to ensure that they can do payments at 1% no offense toon young and sap you're welcome please give me money too just to build on that a little bit uh my La my last company did a tiny fraction of lending volume that maker Dow does it had 500 Engineers uh and maker Dow had like 10 or 20 when it got built in the beginning like you know I know you were saying like Banks don't like blockchain technology but uh Banks really like their bottom line and 500 Engineers is a lot more expensive than 20 and so like I I I think that the the automation that comes from blockchain I actually don't love using that term but the automation that comes from blockchain is massive in the financial work like the operations uh portion of a bank is huge and that is like what the stable coin fixes uh and actually another thing that you were saying earlier I'm just going to continue to disagree with you on this one uh the uh you know you're were saying that like money works pretty well and like payments work pretty well they do and like I I don't you know I the banks do work I have a credit card yeah but have you tried sending a wire recently it is awful and I know that's like kind of a cliche thing for for stable coins but like the settlement thing does matter and the immediate settlement that comes from stable coins really does make payments a lot easier ACS have a 64 different like return codes that you can get and they go up to like 48 days like that's like a crazy thing like have you ever tried integrating with a it is so annoying it's it's stable coins really do like address those things and I guess just to add one point before I pivot the conversation slightly I think the interesting thing is I remember being at UBS and learning about crypto back in 2016 they were investing heavily in smart contract development um you see the fact and you're you're right I think it will come from an Institutional perspective I think Asia is going to push the way forward especially sing the likes of Singapore um they've been very welcome into Western Banks joining sandboxes and you're seeing Swiss banks European Banks going over to Singapore to test new iterations implementing blockchain technology crypto technology whatever you want to call it really um into their processes but you're you're also right in that it will be an abstraction of the technology it's unlikely to be the way in which US crypto purists see it um and that's something we may have to reconcile with as a space so to Pivot slightly we have we started to move into infrastructure right Beyond Simply Having a higher a high uh sorry uh beyond the high level of having a higher throughput and access to rwa data what do stable coins need from the transaction and the infr layer that is currently missing and how do we go about improving these spaces because they're typically overlooked um so I think put your point like when you said institutions right right now we actually have different ecosystems so each ecosystem would have let's say I think their I don't know shortcoming I I think that in ethereum ecosystem like finality and like so I'm a huge obviously like okay probably a little bit chilling because obviously Scrolls by so I think that Economic Security through validity proofs is what needs to be empowered more as opposed to making trust assumptions and having like social guarantees so and so I'm part of the ethereum ecosystem which is I think that it's just like a bubble right and there just like I was just talking to my colleague Alex here was sit in front and he was telling me all the amazing things that happen in the move ecosystem and then you have the salana ecosystem so I think that each of these ecosystem have their own shortcomings and I think in our ecosystem I think that uh arguably like can have the I think finality is a huge differentiator um but how finality is as well like reorgs and roll backs you don't don't want those things you can't afford these things for payment and for for for for settlement and so I think that Economic Security through validity proofs needs to be enforced harder uh and and and and needs that that's what I'm banking on and I would say needs it's missing it's like we were doing it but it needs to be done more wait um you're about you're a bit above my head can you say that one more time time ether like it needs to have stronger um it needs to have better settlement than ethereum does any blockchain have better settlement than ethereum like faster and more final no I should clarify that's that's like on l2s so right now today if you look at e ethereum space right yes that's correct very decentralized secure but ethereum can't scale and the scaling Solutions today let's say the most common ones are op and ZK and so um the promise of ZK is infinite scaling but through validity proof up front and so the guar the guarantee of that is is that if you sent me one stable coin a few minutes hopefully a few seconds later you don't have to worry about something happening and rolling back and then suddenly you know you seeing plus one in your wallet and I'm like where's my money I did my service and you paid me and so we can make trust assum we can build trust assumptions where it's like trust me bro or like another like or we can trust mathematical proofs which is you know the heart of ZK and so when you send me something there's a validity proof and so you have Economic Security through proofs as opposed to uh trust assumptions so there's finality on different layers yeah I think what you were saying was interesting and I think what we need to highlight as an industry much more is fast finality right if you do a wire transfer it takes you 48 hours to get on the other side you pay a phone call and sometimes a phone call afterwards right um and then they're going to ask you hundreds of questions if it's a big amount if it's more than $100 um so all of that right so that's a big downside I think we also have to address the fact that we deal with multiple ecosystems right as you were saying we got the cell does that work with move does that work with you know does that work with rust you know all of a sudden how do we move money seamlessly so that the end users doesn't need to worry about the losing coins because it's on the wrong chain or you know you have an abstracted wallet address that's different from you know Etc Etc so I think those are big issues that we need to address maybe something completely different but what I believe is core infrastructure that the industry is sorely lacking is some form of credit like in trafy we have credit cards in stable coins or in crypto in general we have nothing like that like we need um some form of a credit underwriting system that doesn't require crypto collateral to be posted in order for people to access liquidity basically I don't have the answers either unfortunately but we do need that just quickly I like that I think that's a really important point but do you think that's due to regulatory issues or do you think because technology-wise it should be possible right I think it's mostly people not wanting to do the work to underwrite people yeah uh off chain probably we have some amazing risk mitigators in the audience and it's a lot of work right it's not fun work so I get why we don't jump on it but it's a huge unlock for an industry so there's there's a pretty good system that people use to underwrite uh spending around the world it is the credit card system and what stable cards stable coins are really good at is settlement and one of the things that I actually uh you know that we've been seing happening and I actually think is the majority of uh like real world use case crypto transactions is debit cards that use uh stable coins as settlement uh the other one you know the next like obvious step there is just credit cards that are paid off with stable coins at the end of the month and I know that this is like stable coins as a payments thing but like everyone in here is probably using a credit card all week why would we not go to stable coins I agree but every single one of those credit cards is preunit cards yeah right now so the next step is underwritten individuals in order to access Credit and then paying it off later I also think that like I've been actually thinking about this lately a lot talking to some of my friends about it uh and uh I like your point but I also think that no one's willing to Bear the risk right I think on a protocol level I think that where it comes down to like um credit score credit score is a big issue to fix there are ways there's actually uh that's so we use ZK for scaling but there's actually ZK that can be you know used outside of lot ZK the mo the practical application of ZK actually started in 2014 outside of crypto it's a whole different space and you can actually use ZK to like you know utilize credit scores and do calculations you have uh TLS notary that that has a mechanism for that so that I would agree with what you said is that the technology is there but uh something out of personal experience I can tell is that unfortunately not all the tech pieces are super mature I would say the dev experience is absolutely horrible the and I would say tying everything together and bearing the risk on multiple levels not just on product but also like on a tech technical level the exposures that you have I think that there's like still seriously a lot more work to be done and I notice there an unpopular opinion but I would love for a hybrid version where there was some guarantees maybe taken off like coinbase Des like coinbase One Insurance you know you're insured for up to 1 million if you even if you lose your private keys I mean being more I'm more on the Practical side of things would you not say though that one of the problems of having a mature debt market right is where you Source the capital right or the liquidity right to finance that at the moment it's very much LP structure and there's a high expectation for high yields and interest attached to that um and maybe part of it is that we need to change the way in which we're sourcing liquidity maybe it's that we go to Dow treasuries right um a radical idea because maybe they have a they're more patient they may expect lower interest but with the current structure I also would challenge the panel in saying that are we missing a trick by focusing gain on trying to optimize mature markets when in fact there are many underserved and immature credit markets that exist and it doesn't become a technical problem it becomes underwriting problem because the underwriting problem is that we're trying to underwrite in a western native way when the institutions do not exist in the markets that were that are undeserved to do so so credit cards you you ring up a balance at the end of the month it gets paid off right that could be done with stable coins uh the the big issue is the underwriting process like you guys are saying uh like maybe I'm maybe I'm missing it but like why can't that just be reused it I I think it can it just hasn't happened yet so people in the room please do so I know of one crypto organization that actually does underwriting it's ARF they power remittances for transferwise like businesses and they actually underwrite the businesses that they work with and then provide them Credit in the form of stable coins that model can definitely be applied to onchain Banks I think and then we could all have a true crypto powered credit experience who doesn't want that but would you not say that even that example is targeting underserved credit markets rather than mature credit markets and I guess even with a credit card example in of course there's ways in which we can improve the credit experience in the west but do we actually need it is it enough for the in institutions that are powering and issuing the credit cards to be like actually let's revamp our system to enable crypto or is it that we need to validate the model a bit like how stable coins were validated before the institution started to pick it up and we validate in an immature underdeveloped market and it doesn't become about crypto crypto is just the means crypto is the source of liquidity and then we can bring more on chain food for f I think that you know and maybe I'm misunderstanding so I'm not like I guess like I'm noticing uh a in my own knowledge but if if I look at let's say um I'm looking at from a protocol point of view that right now is either like launching a stable coin or it's like let's say 100% onchain it's more def5 focused cuz I I guess like I didn't realize what you said I guess it's true but that's done an institution moving right an institution switching from like usedd to used DC but the way I look at it is what would what what would it look like for a crypto native DFI protocol to switch to a credit card model on that's a very long way and so um yes I mean that's like I guess a short but then it's like you know okay how do you get them to move to adopt stable coins now another maybe like unpopular opin Heart Take is is that I'm not sure if we need that because I I see like a I'm going to go on a tangent now I see like a door to a fractionalized banking I see the path towards like what led us down to like a road where I don't want to go and so you're saying like who wouldn't want Credit Card banking like man but that's a very personal like now this my personal opinion right like n [ __ ] no stay the [ __ ] away don't want that here like I love over catered or at about the airline miles okay you got me no but like like honestly I think that we do a lot of things right and maybe I'm being an ethical Maxi right now right but I hate like I genuinely like so I'm trafi I've been an accountant like been in that world and honestly I I'm not maybe I'm not even allowed to talk because I started my career in the debt of Crisis and so I was I was only up from there and in 2009 I got my first job and it was only up from there but like what I saw at the heart of the problem is like greed which it's a problem in crypto too but fractionalized banking was like so Banks don't even need to have fraction anymore yeah yes so that they don't even have any in America buddy not not this side of the world so but for for me uh I'm good with C Credit Credit Credit Card actually not being here I'm good for not being although I am uh uh optim like excited about novel solutions that utilize yield to like like extend it a little bit you know and all that stuff like or like prepayments and stuff like that to have like yield at work for you uh to throw another buzzword AI agents yeah I think there a couple of cool things going on in there so one final point I'm going to ask another question I guess just another point of food for food for f is is that even when in the conversation about credit cards I feel as though sometimes we're thinking of crypto as the end rather than the means and in fact what we should be looking for and this is why I keep pushing underdeveloped credit markets is where is there a need for credit where is there a need for improvement that is a significant Delta not just an optimization because we're still when it comes to credit and this is a fundamental part in building a competitive digital payment stat we are still at prevalidation stage and are we not trying to push beyond that I know you want to I feel like you're best I I go ahead so I I I do agree quite a bit that you know one of the things that people want with payments in general from a consumer perspective is the ability to borrow money before they actually need to pay it off uh you know the the other big thing though is they want to get additional money right like I was joking about airline miles that you know that has been like a massive Ponzi scheme that has worked out really well for visa and Mas m MasterCard uh but like at the end of the day the way that it did work is it got consumers to be excited about paying with a certain thing because they got a reward for it right and I think it you know we were talking about it in the beginning and I think it really does come down to how can we take the underlying yield that is generated by the assets behind the stable coins and use them to incentivize usage and you know just to kind of like wrap this all the way around uh you know like there whether it's the uh underlying yield being you know like altruistically used by the GL or it's being used to incentivize a you know a fintech app to actually use that as their stable coin right like eventually it's going to get back to the end user somehow whether it's like a savings account or something like that and I think uh like at the end of the day like the more solutions and products that can lean into getting the yield to Consumers at the end is what's going to drive the payment adoption with stable coins so we're coming close to the end of time unfortunately but well not the end of time that's a bit traumatic the end of this panel session um but there's one question I did want to round off with we're sitting in Thailand we're in Asia Devcon is happening in an emerging market or a region of the world which has typically been overlooked by crypto I think one of my key beliefs is I almost thank Gary in many ways which I know is very controversial in crypto spaces because it's forced many Western crypto protocols companies to actually push Beyond the default belief that crypto is global by default because it wasn't um and so one of my key questions for everyone on the panel is as we're thinking about a competitive digital payments um stack how can we really think about ensuring that it is inclusive payment stack and that we are localized into different Market needs what does that look like for each of you I think that for me it would be again this I'm I'm lately I've been diving and talking a lot to my friends about the payments like the vertical stack I think that uh uh what what does it look like for localized needs you said right I think what would be really really dope is that if we get local networks as opposed to using let's say visa and Master Card like a lot of these like credit or debit card are like white label Solutions on top of like these networks and so empowering like say utilizing um a blockchain technology to empowering local networks where value is like not just created and generated local but like distributed local as well I think it's much easier to generate yield that way as well and like redistribute it so that's something that I think that uh is is lacking and I'd be excited to see I don't I don't think local in crypto matters right we go cross jurisdictions we're all from all over the world how do we service people that are constantly moving from country to country that live two years in this country move to another country maybe don't live in a permanent housing they have a service department that is not even theirs they just pay rent they live from Airbnb to Airbnb how do we service that community that Community already today is about 40 million strong $800 billion in spending how do we provide them with products Insurance products credit rating other assets so that they can save their money it doesn't get depreciated by interest uh by inflation etc etc so that to me so local jurisdictions don't really matter how do we transcend jurisdictions because I can tell you a local government has no idea about how it works in other countries and they have no jurisdiction in any other countries and so that's a big problem that the internet and crypto addresses but no other the Fiat world doesn't address it you guys are talking about totally different user groups but I actually do think stable coins are a great use for both of them and it really does come down to the reasoning that like at the end of the day what do people want they want to be able to not lose the value of their money they want to be able to spend it very cheaply uh and hopefully they want to be able to uh exchange it for whatever Goods or other money they need right that's crossb payments to other currencies like these are the things that like crypto is so perfect for and it doesn't matter the size of the transaction except for fees and it doesn't matter the jurisdiction or anything like that like that's the beauty beauty of stable coins is that it can go to any trans uh any jurisdiction um and it does solve like the very distinct use uh cases that are totally different that you two are talking about for us well said it's probably a stable coin in every country that's localized plus moving from 1 to 5% onramp costs to zero or perhaps even negative on-ramp cost if you take the yield and you incentivize the institutions um yeah I think those are the two most powerful things perfect well we could talk for hours it seems for sure um but we have the red sign is telling me time is up um so thank you so much for joining this panel hopefully you've enjoyed it as much as we have