Panel 2 - Security & Risk Management Considerations When Adopting Stablecoins

so again welcome to Istanbul I mean as a local uh it's great to welcome you in this beautiful city and yeah in this panel we will talk about security and risk considerations when adopting stable coins so before starting my question like before start asking to my guests uh I'm going to kindly ask them to introduce themselves so we can start by you then we can go forward to the the Watson yeah sure hey guys uh my name is name is Nick Fett I am one of the founders of teller teller is a decentralized Oracle we provide price feeds uh cross train messaging kind of whatever your Oracle needs are uh a lot of times just stable coins hey guys I'm sarim I'm head of gr Athena we do U DOTA neutral stable corn you take steak teeth and you short e perss and you get like a cool yield profile so that's what we do hi I'm money supply from block analytica um and we specialize in risk management for uh decentralized stable coins and onchain credit markets hi I'm Watson Fu uh I'm the head of Market risk at Gauntlet um we focus on protocol optimization uh through quantitative methodologies for both risk management and incentive optimization awesome so shall let's start the our first question is related with you know some possible risk and risk of some crash and we experienced lots of stable coin crash so far and the most famous One the Luna crash and some people in the industry could guess that was going to happen so what do you think about if you're doing well right now in terms of the most common protocols and the stable coin systems or do you even guess some possible threats right now in terms of some possible collapse or maybe some you know more more basic stuff so basically I'm wondering if you see some possible dangers in both def5 protocols related with stable coins or also some fight back stable coins so maybe we can follow the reverse order this time and yeah we can listen yeah sure um yeah I think even earlier this year uh if we just take the the teruna US situation um I think the sort of Contours of exactly what happened um were already shown uh to have a lot of intricacies in the ecosystem we have now um and that's also highlighted with uh what we saw in March with usdc right uh it's a completely different scenario in terms of uh what the risk factors were what the considerations were and what Market participants did afterwards um I I'm not going to sit up here and and say I know all of the potential issues of stable coins and and risk management regarding stable coins at the same time I think that that a lot of Market participants um developed strategies and learned a lot from uh understanding how to mitigate risks around stable coins I know it's a bit it's a bit uh uh sort of handwavy of an answer uh but I I think in general uh security and and risk management uh with stable coins has has come a long way and and again the the ecosystem is sort of learning uh as we go yeah I think we we have learned some important lessons from teral Luna um like one example is that endogenous backing like using your own governance token or whatever as backing is no longer like really sort of accepted as a safe practice in the space so I think that's like a really important advance that we have um like fracks for instance they're moving away from having their you know token collateralize the stable coin um and just towards like full 100% backing um you still see occasionally people uh create a model that is based on endogenous collateral um so like an example of this is uh thorchain has like a new lending product and under the hood uh it's basically backing uh the loans with the Rune token which um puts it at pretty high risk in certain respects but um I think we have learned a lot from uh from Tara um I think like the next wave of risk that I see happening are more around real world assets um so just because it has quote unquote 100% backing um doesn't mean that the backing is like actually suitable for the stable coin um and one uh recent example of this sort of like going wrong is uh there's a stable coin called tangible USD that's backed with real estate um and it's it's interesting in a lot of ways but um you can't you know sell real estate really quickly it's not very liquid so when people wanted to you know get rid of tangible USD or they like lost confidence they weren't able to get all of that backing you know back to back the stable coin immediately so it's Fallen below Peg um so I think there's probably going to be more risks in real world assets uh going forward yeah I think we're running all the stable coins to collabs at this point over the last two years um I think terraluna was obviously important you guys mentioned that back by your governance stable coin seems to be your governance token seems to be out of fashion although there's quite a few that survived and still okay uh like synthetics for example but I think even they're starting to shift to multic Collateral I think so uh I think another important thing that happened last year was BD it was not the same as Terra obviously but it did show that basically what happens is you should not keep your money in America um I mean obviously a lot of these stable coins tether usdc they hold money in treasuries which has to be somewhere in the state um but at the end of the day if you like are literally in America officially it's probably not a good idea so that was a good lesson another lesson from that was basically that they're not going to take your money away that was kind of interesting even though this SEC hcz this still allows you to redeem your kind of uh Stables uh your assets from B USD so that was like a good kind of way for us to understand what the risks are of having an onore stable coin um but yeah just get out of the states that's kind of what from that yeah so kind kind of echoing what they would say you know to kind of paint the landscape um it's a stable coin Summit you probably all know there's like centralized stable coins usdt usdc like the risk there it's almost all regulatory risk you know like are is the are the US Banks going to shut something down and cause a collapse um that's more like systemic risk for all of defi that we have to worry about um on on the decentralized stable coins as they were saying the risks mainly come in the form of like what collateral are you using um and then there's also like Oracle risks and Oracle centralization um that maybe we can talk about a little bit too um but yeah like like the biggest kind of upcoming ones that that I see um I I I see a lot of people actually backing things with a the real world assets but then a everyone that we talk to is going to put like steth and and wrapped restak eth and everything like that and and there's probably um going to be a lot of systemic risks that kind of come from that so um not to mention just how you price these things and how you sort of risk adress them inside of a stable Point yeah thank you um the the following question will be um closely related with you know censorship mechanisms in stable coins and as you probably know that the most common stable coins like usdt usdc or like binance USD true USD have blacklisting functions in their contract um and and yeah they can Blacklist the whoever they want and as you know these are some Central institutions so what do you think isn't it too dangerous to allow some Central institutions to blst someone uh in the industry in specifically web 3 which which which are meant to decentralized and yeah we can start by Nicholas Watson this time yeah sure um yeah I think that question is pretty philosophical and existential to to a lot of individual sort of belief of the ethos of crypto um I I think my personal Viewpoint um is also slightly biased coming from a traditional Finance background in the United States uh I think that uh like like Monae just said uh and and uh sarim I think uh the regulations sort of play a huge factor in how I sort of think about um uh stable coin and and the general uh sort of stable coin economy growing and what I mean is if you sort of look at the history of US regulations through DOD Frank uh at this point like fsock various committees even if you look at Europe with mid 2 and specific reporting requirements I think that blacklisting is is partially against yeah like like I said the ethos of of what we believe in terms of decentralization at the same time if we want Mass adoption from large sort of us institutions and and sort of the getting the economies of scale and and having uh large players uh step into to uh the ecosystem I think it's relatively important uh to understand uh sort of the guardrails right I think uh web 2 the adoption the general uh initial use case was for some illicit activities I think you see the same in web 3 as we develop as we mature uh as a space I think uh uh it's a necessary evil I guess you could say yeah I'd coign that I think um if you're going to have you know a centralized company issue a stable coin um you know you have to kind of play by the rules of whatever banking sector that you're kind of affiliated with so I think tether and usdc having a blacklist function it's unavoidable and in a way you could even look at it like we're kind of appeasing The Regulators we're keeping the government happy um the sort of like risk factor that I keep an eye out is they've you know tether Circle they've blacklisted plenty of addresses but they've never blacklisted like defi protocols or multi-user pools um you know sometimes you'll see somebody hacks something and they steal some tethers and then they put it into like a liquidity pool like curve or something um and you never see tether blacklisting the three pool or something like that um so I think that's like kind of the red line where um if if you see some of that like sort of indiscriminate uh multi-user pool getting Frozen um then we really need to like reassess exactly what we're doing here and what's a viable alternative um but we've not gotten there yet and you know hopefully hopefully we never do and we can just kind of keep everything uh in the sort of like balance that it is now so maybe uh in this point I can share some statistics to make things more concrete for both our audience and our um speakers um like the when you analyze the chain data you see that um the like the things are a bit serious like I mean tether has blacklisted nine more than 900 users on only only on the ethereum main net where Circle um has blacklisted like one 150 users on Main net so I mean the main point for mine is which I'm trying to make sure or like like make it like make it more clear for myself um is are these numbers like should these numbers afraid us make make us afraid or um like these numbers are there but they they might have some reasons for their for themselves or so that's why we should we should be fine or we should be relaxed but yeah as as Watson said okay this is a um you know this is not coinciding with the the the EOS of the philosophy of the ecosystem but maybe you might have some contrary opinions like because these numbers seem like we have we have we have we have like some serious problems but maybe the the the thing cannot be uh in that way so I just wanted to add some numbers to make it more concrete yeah I think most things are done for a good reason right doesn't mean it's okay I mean I think with blacklisting I understand because tether have this very difficult choice of are they going to make $3 billion doll a year or they going to go to jail and I really it's really hard to decide but I see what they've done what they've done you know um so I think the more interesting slippery slope that comes from this is more about what you mentioned about D5 protocols being banned and also uh if you remember last year we had the merge and basically if tether Circle decided we want to stick to proof of work they could have done that right but they didn't but ultimately there could come a point where somebody says you know what um the US government could could come to them and say we want a kyc version of ethereum you have to choose that one so they could do it I think they're not Banning curve and were purely out of goodness of their hearts pretty much and U if somebody came to them and said that's important to us um you have to close it they would probably do it and the reality is we just need to create more decentralized Alternatives in the meantime that could work better than what we've done so far um otherwise we're going to end up kind of in that kind of situation but I think there's a silver lining here with even centralized stable coins basically it's a trade-off we can't we have to Blacklist people and all that that stuff but if the stable coin Market grows a lot we basically fund the US government at this point it's like 130 billion bucks worth of treasuries or something that um official stable coins U stable coins hold right that's like the 20th biggest country or something like that if we 10x this cycle again we'll have as much treasuries in our balance sheets uh as Japan or China so then we could literally call shots and say we want this we want that um we just need to get to the point where we literally are the biggest funer of the US government and just bid our time you know and try to keep coal before that yeah no that was great yeah like we'll hold the hold the fork Choice rule for the US government right um no it's interesting I think a lot of The Blacklist stuff gets kind of solved once you actually get some privacy in in some of these systems you know it's it's sort of sad that we we don't have any privacy on top of most of these stable coins I think over the next few years we're going to start getting some of that hopefully we have decentralized stable coins with with some privacy and and they can start kind of competing with yeah some of these other ones okay thank you um so like Al the this question is a bit more related with the reserves and like because in specifically fight back stable coins um they're claiming that they're holding some reserves which should be greater than or equal to the market cap or the supply of the uh token so here the the fact that uh these reserves are not accessible in in a live manner so we have like we we know about them when they publish a audit report uh about their reserves um does it sound D dangerous to you in because of they have you know they have minting and burning functions they can use it however they want to use like before or after the Audits and there there are all lot lots of of rumors in terms of like some Central institutions minting lots of tokens after the audit burning tokens before the audit obviously these are all rumors we have no idea we have no concrete data about it but the just you know philosophically or just you know uh we're doing a thought experiment um does it sound dangerous should all I mean the effort of making things transparent uh is worth to to sacrifice something like Capital efficiency which I'm going to ask in another question about stable coin through LMA but in in this specific question what do you think about the non-transparency in reserves of fight back stable coins this time we can start with yeah yeah no I mean obviously it's a risk I think it's probably the US government at least will probably put stable coins under some sort of banking regulation here shortly uh so they'll probably be doing audits on on their own which will be probably good for the industry but you know like I don't think any of us are like disillusioned in saying like usdc or usdt is a great thing like you know usually you would get Flack if you put that as the backing to your stable coin or or anything like that like we all know it's sort of centralized and I think I think that's a good thing still like we we still we don't look at them like they're one of us necessarily so like you know it's as long as you're sort of cautious about it and you know I know as an industry we at least still sort of want to move away yeah I kind of understand why they don't want to reveal data obviously like the most basic is you don't want to be front run on your Holdings but also yeah you don't want to tell The Regulators exactly why you're holding your money because they can just go after you because CZ did that and they whacked him you know so uh I can totally see why people don't want to do that actually there was a thinking I think a year ago that if you're onore if you're kosare it's all regulated it's going to be great and the year later now everyone said up offshore entities coinbase think cracken to or something so like we just learned that basically less transparency is kind of better and and that's not different from last century I think where you had the euro dollar situation where money was created outside of America now we have something kind of similar to crypto dollar or something where we um create money outside of United States um so I think yeah less transparency funnny enough is probably better for these stable coins for us I think what matters to us probably is just yeah I feel like with a lot of these stable coins we don't know what's in there but we have track record so I think on the previous panel somebody mentioned that like during terraluna like 10 billion bucks or something were redeemed within two weeks of tether and I'm like that's quite a lot of money to be redeemed so quickly and we kind of have to rely on track record at this point uh while building decentralized Alternatives yeah I think um the lack of transparency for centralized Stables is definitely like a it's an unsolved problem um you know tether it's kind of a black box like you they report quarterly and you assume okay if they're telling the truth they are they have enough backing um but it's you know it's really tough to like assign like a probability of like what's the likelihood that they're not telling the truth that's just kind of like a Black Swan risk um even with something like Circle um you know you know okay like they they do probably have enough dollars in the bank and T bills to back their stable but you might not know which banks that they're working with and back in you know in March for instance uh usdc had the uh dpeg right around I think it was Silicon Valley Bank that was going under and uh my team like spent the entire weekend like trying to figure out like okay who are they banking with are any of their other Banks going to blow up um and it's you know it's very difficult to find that information um you know compare it to the roughly like 40 % of maker backing that is crypto collateralized vaults or through spark protocol and you can see second byc block by block down to the individual position level and you can see you know in our dashboard you can see exactly how much loan to value ratio each of those positions have and you can then you know kind of model out what's the risk happening uh for this stable coin um so I think that's you know kind of a an area of growth hopefully in the next cycle is how do we get that you know minute by minute hour by hour data on centralized um sort of backing for stable coins for real world assets um how can we actually reliably get that information on chain and be able to use it yeah I think I think um uh the yell panelist did a great job of covering most of the points I wanted to talk about um the thing I would add too is I think uh yeah since I started working in the crypto space I don't think a month has gone by without me reading an article about usdt fud uh I think that it's one of the sort of pillars of uh risk management in the space understanding how you sort of assign some stochastic understanding of uh what the risks are with uh sort of balance sheet uh Opa right um I at the same time I would also say uh the point that mon just brought up as well like when you take something like Circle um who's making a lot of pushes uh with sort of cross train uh messaging with ccip and understanding sort of how to properly uh uh mitigate risks across various communication channels I would even say with them um uh yeah like Monae said again uh with Silicon Valley Bank even if you have more information about the balance sheet than you would for for sort of other Fiat backed assets uh you still hold some risk right like if they hold longer dated uh treasuries if they hold uh uh Assets in a bank that could go under because of uh uh sort of external uh exagger sort of events uh there's a non-trivial amount of risk and I I would tend to say too that um understanding those risks and pricing it is obviously always going to be a challenge at the same time uh having the challenges for these Fiat back currencies be slightly different from the issues we see on chain actually I think as a whole uh helps to mitigate the risk because you have less sort of concentration risk right um again being at the whim of the US government and their regulations is not the best but I think that um that's sort of a a uh something else that that uh is worth considering and and making sure that we were set up as as sort of a community for those uh changes yeah thank you um so like we have fight back to say coins and crypto B stable coins and like each side has some advantages and disadvantages so do you think that are we going to able to make crypto back stable coins much better so that we don't need like we won't need the fight back once anymore is this where I get to show my stable coin like I mean obviously this question is based on the Assumption of crypto back stable coins are better uh and I think I mean most of the audience will agree on that yeah if not I I would love to hear your opinion but in the under the assumption under this assumption what do you think what kind of um things could be made in terms to like to to to to make crypto back stable coins much better so that uh fight back stable coins will be in a way useless yeah just just to make this network more decentralized you know yeah I mean I think the problem until recently was that the thinking was always about over culturalization which just doesn't scale as much unfortunately and the only kind of way to back your um stable coin with non-dollar assets is to so far that we came up with in the space is Delta hedging somehow like uxd I think Pioneer the back in the day you take salana short salana per Futures and you know voila um but that's kind of the only thing we could come up with so far that's kind of eth is about as well just steak but using steak tee and centralized Exchange futures um but it's not perfect but at least you're getting away from the treasury exposure and it's not over collateralized so you can kind of scale much bigger than what we had before but I'd love to see any other ideas apart from Delta hedged Stables backed by crypto assets just haven't seen anything that has actually scaled meaningfully you know yeah I mean I I can go I think I think when you look at like centralized stable coins versus decentralized stable coins I have a framework for thinking about like cryp whenever you talk crypto you need you need to pay for two things with with stable coins first you need to pay for the security so like with any cryptocurrency you know whether it's Bitcoin you're using inflation to pay for the security or you're using transaction fees on ethereum you have to do that with stable coins but now you also have to pay for the stability so you know something in your protocol has to pay for basically hedging it um you know there there isn't really a free ride here so you're you're never going to get the complete Capital efficiency perfect competition that you do with uh a FIA back stable coin it's just it's really hard you know and people are trying to and what you can do is like you can put steep or you can put you know restake eth in there and hopefully you know you have all these rewards but what you're doing is you're just like not risk adjusting it you're just using that to pay for it so so you know like I know you guys have a slightly different model but it's um yeah so so so it's it's not necessarily that that you can compete on those levels but I I think most of what we'll probably see is we'll see a split in what are we actually trying to do because right now most decentralized stable coins you're not trying to be a stable coin to compete with Tron usdt for payments like nobody's doing that um you're you're trying to just basically create a tool for leveraging or you know trading structure product pretty much yeah it's not for payments oh maybe one day but yeah so you know like I I think you'll you'll see these two things separate you'll have like stable coins like defi stuff for for leveraging and going short different currencies and then you'll have more payment type currencies which which maybe don't need to be as staple which maybe you can you know play around with on the edges which may be more privacy focused so yeah I think um I I have doubts that a purely crypto-backed stable coin is going to be able to scale up to like a you know sort of GL Global tether level of scale um Athena's extremely interesting model uh using like Delta hedged per you know you hold spot eth you or spot staked eth um and then you go short the eth per um there's still like a little bit of overcollateralization baked in like as an example if your per contract lets you take up to 20x leverage sometimes they're even higher than that but then that 5% um of your like sort of minimum Capital requirement is sort of in a way it's over collateralized um so I think perss in a lot of ways they're very similar to CDP lending um they just are they're able to provide like a higher level of Leverage and capital efficiency um so I I I'm really excited to see whether that can scale up to like a really high number um if it does you know I'm sure maker would be like interested in yeting some money into Athena or maybe copying that mod model uh for part of its collateral base um but I I still have like a little bit of doubts that a pure stable coin is going to scale up because even if you look at uh traditional Finance um the demand to hold a stable asset is almost always higher than the demand to you know leverage long a volatile asset um you know we've got like Prime money market funds and like a whole industry that sort of manufactures like stable-ish um assets out of volatile assets because the demand for stable assets is just so high and it's really really difficult to uh to meet that yeah I tends to agree as well um if you think about this question from the framework of uh will there ever be a time where Fiat back stable coins do not exist I think that answer is no um again it it comes down to trade-off and sort of the utility you want uh from the assets um that are being issued and I I also think that yeah as we get to more sort of convoluted and nuanced derivatives and ways to develop uh uh crypted stable coins I think that uh the market share of them will increase uh inevitably at the same time I think uh there there probably still will be a a niche and and requirement for for some stable coin yeah thank you the this question will be about the stable coin through LMA but basically just just a quick recap the stable coin through LMA is I mean if you want to build a stable coin you need to sacrifice one of the followings like the price stability decentralization or Capital efficiency and we know that some of the models you know are lacking the centralization some of the models lacking the capital efficiency so like what do you think the best model is right right here or do you do you know or have some Alternatives solving this dma and we can like we can make the answers here longer because this is an important concept and everyone is everyone wants to solve this issue to make the most efficient and most decentralized stable coin so I'm really wondering what your what your thoughts are here so we can start maybe uh with you Watson yeah sure um I guess I'm not here to shill any stable coin uh I also think that uh and and again I want to preface with the fact that I think my response will probably be slightly biased as well coming from a uh sort of more risk focused uh framework for trying to understand uh how to grow stable coins in general um with that being said I think that uh if we look at the corners of uh this trilemma I think that Capital efficiency is probably the corner that I think that uh other uh sort of asset classes can can uh build out the utility for and the functionality for the most easily um so so the reason why I say that and again I think this question is sort of framed as how can you develop the the ultimate stable coin um I I I think that from my opinion uh there's yeah if we look at Perpetual Futures if we look at uh the general sort of cross-chain implications of various asset classes it probably makes the most sense to look for Capital efficiency and build out Primitives that allow for Capital efficiency in other places um so that the stable coin utility can can be more focused on sort of decentralization and uh the stability of of the asset as a whole yeah I think we've we've seen a bunch of different stable coin models emerge over the past cycle um stuff like liquidy uh reflexer Ry um and then of course you know maker and the centralized stable coins and a few others um and I think competition and people just kind of attacking that problem from different perspectives is very healthy um it kind of like keeps everyone honest um users can decide where on that spectrum they want to sit you know if you really want pure eth collateral and like you know maybe sort of towards as much decentralization as possible and you're willing to sacrifice the price stability then you can use you know L USD as a great option um so I I'm super happy that there's like so much Innovation and just people trying stuff uh in the stable coin space um I am a little bit biased I I will she'll make her and die but I think um to me the most compelling sort of tradeoff space there is trying to maintain the most functional decentralization um while still being able to reach a global scale um where your stable coin can be used broadly in transactions and can actually compete with the traditional banking system and um sort of address some of the like centralization and censorship risks that we're seeing emerge more and more over the time um so yeah I think you know stuff like uh making your stable coin uncensorable where you know you don't have a blacklist function but then still trying to figure out how you can interact with the real world you can use some offchain assets as backing um you know if you can thread that needle where you have like the necessary functional amount of decentralization for users but then you can still utilize some of the non decentralized um backing and other mechanisms to reach global scale um I think that's to me that's the most compelling trade-off there and um whether it'll work uh still a bit of a question you know uh maker as an example um is pretty exposed to treasury bills so if the US government really wanted to put their foot down um theoretically yeah it could be it could be uh really exposed to that risk um but I think there is a path forward where you know we can sort of tell our story to the public and people will demand you know their right to use a uh decentralized instrument um while still you know having it be scalable yeah I think we're in a pretty tough spot as a stable coin industry because on the one hand we want to be decentralized ideological on the other hand we have to eventually make money uh you know like when you're 18 and your parents tell you you have to get a job like eventually VCS will be like like you have to stop making money now man like and we're getting close to that point so we have to kind of figure out how to do that and I think the way to do it is just to live another day to get influence and market share as much as we can so we can set the rules and that might not look ideal not super decentralized not super immutable but if 10 years from now we can walk in again into the fed and say we own half of your balance sheet like deal with it now like that could be pretty cool um like you do what Uber did and for 10 years they were doing crazy and then eventually that became standard like you know we we just have to do Guerilla tactics and try to be as close to our vision but being practical so uh we need to grow to be relevant that's what I'm trying to say so yeah so if you look at current decentralized stable coin designs I think probably the biggest limiting factor to kind of beating the scalability tremma is like you know I'm a little biased but it's probably the Oracle problem like how do you do price discovery on these assets so you you have some collateral in there how do you tell when it should be liquidated how do you do this in a decentralized way because you know oracles are notoriously centralized and then how can you do it on multiple different assets uh it's a really big problem because you know it's relatively more simple whenever you have things that have um you know really big Market Shar market caps and Dees that you can read prices from um but whenever you have smaller assets whenever you have offchain assets it gets really really hard to get prices on there quickly and what what happens is if you can't if you can't solve the Oracle problem and getting you know a price on there quickly then you have to over collateralize these things a whole lot or else you know you're going to be under collateralized in your system so I I think over time we're going to be getting better at solving that Oracle problem I I think we've obviously over the past five years it's gotten way way better um you know like what was the original maker design it was you know just a multi-sig and you had an hour delay and um it was on one asset even so you know like we're getting better but you know even just some some of the bigger risks with doing this like you you have to take into consideration liquidity so you know if you have steep backing it how much steth can you lock into your stable coin if you know 97% of tra steep trades on one curve pool and this is what the liquidity is how much can you liquidate so um there's going to be kind of a lot of considerations but I think as we get better at sort of U figuring out what a true price is really really quickly um especially with all of these like hyper liquid assets and we can we we have more onchain information uh I think that's just going to get better over time yeah thank you so we're nearly have we nearly have two minutes um maybe like we can I can direct if some questions uh you might have uh maybe one one or two question I can take to direct to my guest um so anyone from the audience have a question to ask about our topic yeah please so oh great um I'm miked up already so that's very convenient so basically in the last panel we saw that maybe uh the the thing that is important is the velocity of money how to uh how to make sure that there is enough liquidity in this particular stable coin if it will be used as some sort of payment reils or whatever um is it like completely obvious a priori that only centralized stable coins can actually set satisfy that and like does any of the panelists have any like idea perhaps in the very long term how a decentralized stable coin could have enough liquidity for this particular use case I paid for the Ravi ticket with go actually so that was like that's one I'm running out of thoughts at this point but yeah to be fair I think I do think there's a good case to be made that only centralized stable coins actually used as pay rails um a lot of people bring up yields from the I asset it's a good reason to kind of use it but I generally don't think the 5 to 10% is enough it's all about liquidity um so unless we somehow have an amazing Bard Market that we can incentivize liquidity and keep it sticky it'll be very hard to compete with something that's like like tether Circle they got armies of market makers of funds trading it like it's just such a liquid Market very hard to compete in my opinion yeah I think um yeah this is also a problem that that we looked at uh with the a team with go in terms of understanding sort of the liquidity bounds that you would need to properly uh yeah ensure whether it's liquidations whether it's uh uh enough market participants having sort of um uh assets to to facilitate sort of efficient uh market movement I think at the end of the day it becomes a question of how to properly incentivize Market participants whether it's holding the ass asss providing liquidity or even transacting um because I think that uh as you and I think this is a problem that's sort of uh convex in the sense that uh as you uh push adoption and as you push the correct sort of market makers and liquidity providers to step in uh it naturally sort of enables more minting it naturally enables more users and so I think it's it's a problem that that is definitely uh uh important and I also think that that we sort of have the building blocks to to solve it already yeah so awesome uh yeah I we are unfortunately out of time so I want to thank you I want to say thank you to the my panelists for both being here and also like sharing their um their wi insights with us and also I want to thank the audience for being here and listening uh this panel carefully and with a great Passion so thanks everyone